Human's weren't supposed to reproduce. That was the fall of Adam and Eve. Humanity was originally supposed to be 2 people existing in paradise forever. The humans discovered reproduction though and god didn't account for that and it's bad now that we have immortal souls. From god's perspective, it's like if all the bugs in the world became immortal and showed up in your house when you die. God has been in damage control since then trying to figure out what the hell to do.

>>84408440
God being all knowing, could've forsaw that adam and eve could reproduce and then patch that error. Why are humans still being punished for a mistake that happened thousands of years ago when god could've corrected it at any time?

>>84408470
>God being all knowing, could've forsaw that adam and eve could reproduce and then patch that error.
God doesn't know the outcome of free will. That's why things like the Book of Job happen. God cannot predict whether humans will obey him or not, as well as the angels. God gives freedom to his creations and that divine spark is why he cannot take total control over our destinies.
>Why are humans still being punished for a mistake that happened thousands of years ago when god could've corrected it at any time?
Jesus came to fix the mistake and now we can go to heaven when we die.

realistically you cant really debate a religious person because it relies entirely on faith. like you cant really disprove it but also they cant really prove it either. so it just is. also they can just make shit up whenever they need to support an argument. fucking waste of time

>>84408470
>all knowing
Omniscience is stupid Marvel-comics tier trait that makes god an ever dumber character because anything imperfect that a perfect being did would have to be intentional. If you're omniscient/omnipotent and you create anything with any flaws, then logically you did it on purpose to be a dick.

There may be something "above" reality but I can sure as fuck guarantee you it's not a big mean ghost dreamed up by Hebrew tribes that were smashing each other's heads in with big rocks for saying naughty words.

>>84408395
He did not condemn us, we condemned ourselves. This is an important distinction, he allowed us the choice and we always, continually choose wrong. You're falling into the same line of thinking as Anton LeVay. Remember His morality is different than ours, and very simple. He is perfect, everything surrounding Him is perfect. We were once perfect. But love is a choice, and so knowing every choice we would make, he allowed us to choose His love or to reject it. And the punishment is just, you are now cut off from perfection, everything that defines Him and is from Him, is now absent you, voluntarily. But being a Father of perfect love, He offers us a way back anyway. Not by our means, but by dying for us, taking the punishment we chose, in our stead. And then making a simple offer. Believe He is who He says He is, and you will one day return to the perfection you were designed for.

>>84408395
>How does it make sense that God loves humanity
God doesn't love all humans. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Read Romans 9 and fear God. May He show you grace by bringing you to repentance of your sins and by giving you a saving faith in Jesus Christ.
>No crimes you can possibly commit in this world could be even slightly proportional to the amount of punishment in hell.
God is perfectly just in torturing you for all eternity. Every sin you commit is a sin against an infinite God. You are a finite being. Your punishment is therefore distributed over an eternity.

>>84408674
>cuts you off from "perfection" because he feels like it
>gives you a secret love test in a magic book written in ancient Hebrew that someone has to explain to you in your language

>is the one who removed you from perfection and now expects you to make good choices
>punishes you on a ludicrous psychopathic sadistic level for using your imperfect mind to make decisions he knows you will make

All of your faith crumbles to nonsense if you apply a fifth-grader's logic to it.
Just say, "I want to play make believe that I'll live forever in Candy Land, don't question me because I'm intellectually lazy." So we can drop the charade and treat you like the juvenile buffoon you are.

>>84408583
if god does not know the outcome of free-will, then he is not all-knowing.
Calvinists are more intellectually honest than most christians in saying that god already knows who he will condemn in hell before that person is even born.

>>84408767
>God is perfectly just in torturing you for all eternity. Every sin you commit is a sin against an infinite God. You are a finite being. Your punishment is therefore distributed over an eternity.

That sounds morally disproportionate, and infathomably cruel. No being deserves eternal punishment, it doesn't matter if they've blown up an orphanage for all I care. No finite number of sins can equal infinity punishment (EVEN AFTER YOU REPENT IN HELL).

>>84408395
still bannee

>>84408395
Nobody knows what hell is going to be, my guy. Nobody has ever come back from the dead to tell the tale. Except for one, if you believe it. I pray so that nobody has to go there. Because I believe that nobody deserves it.

>>84408799
>>cuts you off from "perfection" because he feels like it
Willful misinterpretation. If you can't accept my good faith premise discussion is impossible. I will restate, he did not choose to cut us off, there was a single term given for continued perfect living. Don't eat from the fucking tree. And we did anyway. He is fundamentally against imperfect order and because we chose it, He owes us nothing. We knowingly choose eternal torment, every day.
>>gives you a secret love test (...) in (..) Hebrew
1. The new testament was written in Greek and Aramaic. Though I believe your actual point is about the book being a factor.
The book does not save you. Indeed our Lord tells us every man has had the chance to know God in his own time. When the greek philosophers speak of the divine logos and man's will to virtue, are they not close to knowing God?
>>is the one who removed you from perfection
Refer to above
>>and now expects you to make good choices
The natural law is written on every man's heart. We choose evil when we know better. You do things daily that weigh on your conscious.
>>punishes you on a ludicrous psychopathic sadistic level for using your imperfect mind to make decisions he knows you will make
Your punishment, for rejecting Him, is respecting your wishes and leaving you to everything that is not of Him, namely all things good. As for your imperfect mind, yes you have a human nature bent towards evil, but you also know better, hence punishment being just. And to Him knowing you'll make the mistake, knowledge is not causation. You chose to do it, he did not intervene nor cause it. Watching a ball roll off an edge, knowing it will fall is not the same as choosing to drop it.

>>84408799
>>84409501 cont.
>>(...) faith crumbles (...) to nonsense if you apply a fifth grader's logic to it.
Do you really believe the greatest thinkers, theologians, atheists and ideological opposition have just lacked a fifth grade education to disprove the single most important cultural development in human history?
>>say "I want to play make believe that I'll live forever in Candy Land, don't question me because I'm intellectually lazy."
Do I come across as lazy? Simple perhaps, but brevity is the soul of wit.
And I'm not actually particularly fascinated with living forever in candy land. Personally, Christianity helped bring me to terms with my nature and self hatred, it told me hope is not lost for me, I'm not the bad things I tell myself.

>>84409156
Its not morally disproportionate, as we are our souls, which are fundamentally infinite, so too are we, fundamentally infinite. And repenting in Hell is too late, as I said elsewhere, every man has had the chance to know God in his own time, outside circumstance.

>>84409562
our souls may be infinite but our transgressions are not, so the condemned souls that have repented should be granted mercy after their transgression that happened infinity years ago. They should be allowed to cease to exist. But as you said souls are fundamentally infinite, so God is the perpetrator of the most sadistic holocaust the universe has ever seen. I cannot find such a God like that to be morally just.

>>84408440
>Human's weren't supposed to reproduce.
So why did we have the capacity to

>>84409621
You transgress against yourself, others and God. All of whom are infinite, for which you deserve certain punishment, which is proportionate. And remember, repentance is a special allowance. The natural and deserved consequence for every human is Hell, we do not, cannot, reasonably ever deserve Heaven. If you accept Gods attributes as everything except His being moral, you have denied that which makes Christianity unique to every other religion that has ever existed. That there is one God, that He loves you, that He is unfailably virtuous and wants you experiencing the perfection He designed FOR YOU to experience.

>>84408395
>How does it make sense that God
Stopped reading there. It doesn't make sense because all supernatural claims are bullshit. Analyzing them is a waste of energy

>>84409710
how can a transgression be infinite in time? I'm not god, I dont have the power to do anything for eternity. The only situation in which eternal punishment would be permissible is one where you are constantly cursing god even when you're burning in hell, such as in the case of satan. Otherwise, I dont see how sinning before you suddenly die in a car crash can possibly morally equate to eternal hell in the form of positive punishment.

>>84408395
i am completely certain that god's plan is perfect. i simply can't fully comprehend it.

it is a fundamental absurdity to believe we deserve utopia. do you care at all about the higher order animals of this world who have all the same neurochemistry? anyone who has pets they truly care for know that they have all the same emotions we have. every last one. they simply can't talk, and have various other mental weaknesses depending on the species.

but you didn't even mention them. you didn't think to ask in your question. maybe because it doesn't matter for the sake of the hypothetical anyway.

and that's how any entity that is truly god of this entire universe would think. we live for 100 years. the universe has existed for over 10 billion and will exist for an incomprehensible amount of time after the earth gets obliterated by the expanding sun.

the belief that god should care about you is just plain narcissism.

>>84409907
>the belief that god should care about you is just plain narcissism
You're misinterpreting the argument, i'm simply saying that god should spare the torture rack for those who have chosen using logic and reasoning to reject him.

>>84409945
feel free to just kill yourself. you won't be able to experience any "torture" if you're dead. but for some reason, you won't do this.

>>84409874
You didn't suddenly sin just before dying and get damned. You damned yourself from the first time you ever knew better. Every day, you only earn more flames, more lashes.
And I'm not saying a singular sin is infinite, but whom you committed it against, is. Don't forget, this is not deserved, its earned. Heaven is unearned but promised regardless. The true "injustice" is seeing the oncoming semi and experiencing a true, heartfelt remorse and acceptance of Christ, thus erasing any claim Hell had to you. You earned Hell, you constantly, repeatedly, turned away from what was good, in the same ways, day after day. But you get the opportunity to enter perfection anyway, not because of you, who you are, what you've done or what you deserve. But because your Father loves you, and wants you by his side.
Grace is a blanket, it cares not for your latest sin, nor your first. It wraps it all and hides it away, like it never happened.

>>84408395
It makes sense when you consider God gave humans free will. You have the choice to do good or bad. You are often told what happens when you make those choices, usually many times throughout life.
God gave you free will because he loves you.

>>84410211
God gave us free will knowing the majority of humans will fuck up and be sent to hell

>>84408395
Bro, it says Jews are gods chosen people. Its all fake shit goat fuckers came up with 3000 years ago.

>>84410117
Least mentally challenged christoid

>>84410345
The priest class invented this to control the masses
Religion is population control

>>84410309
You are correct but knowing is not complicit.
>>84410345
The Jew's least favorite Jew, Christ, our Lord said there will be a new covenant, meaning a new Israel, the church, the bride of Christ.

>>84410185
The way religious cultists operately purely on fear is disgusting literally everything that comes from your mouth is just shit meant to scare the reptilian part of our brains that deals with fear
>God will send you to hell for all eternity if you play with your dick and don't listen to what I have to say

>>84410185
>You damned yourself from the first time you ever knew better.
So you're saying existing as a human being is a sin just because my ancestor ate a fruit 7000 years ago? How do you realistically expect me to own that? what a load of horseshit.

>>84408395
you just need to have faith mmk?

>>84410469
>knowing is not complicit.
God gave us free will knowing we'd sin and suffer in hell

God didn't need to give us free will just so the majority of us will suffer in hell
God apparently enjoys sending the majority of human life to hell for all eternity over something they did in their ~75 years on earth

>>84410473
It doesn't operate on fear. This is a non-argument. Proclaiming belief in Christ because you fear Hell is not what He is after. He wants your love and He wants to love you. If you can't debate on those terms, theres no reason to continue

>>84410474
You are sinful, you do it every day and you know better. We all do. Thats why you and I deserve Hell. Original sin is the mechanism for how we got here. Not a scapegoat to get pissy with God.
I expect you to own your mistakes, but more, your evil. The things you took pride in doing knowing you shouldn't.

Its not about proportionality, if you are, lets say, a pedo or a kid cannibal people will want to burn forever out of spite. Its not about you paying off crimes just getting fucked for being a villain. The problem is that people that go for hell for some reason like not being christian or not picking the correct branch of christianity doesnt really have to go such a torture imo

>>84410556
>>God didn't need to give us free will
Non-argument. He did, this was the design. Love exists because its a choice, because you can say no. This is a straw-man
>>God apparently enjoys sending the majority of human life to hell for all eternity
This is disingenuous. Please, either debate Him as described or provide evidence to the contrary
>>over something did in their ~75 years on earth
You spent your entire life, knowing the potential consequences, feeling the disturbing of your soul as you rebelled against your conscience... and think you deserve Heaven? Purgatory? You balked at the single request, the one contingent, and now you deserve something more than you earned?

>>84410971
Not being Christian is a much more innocent way of saying "denying your Creator His single request for your own salvation". We are not good outside of Him, everything good is a reflection of Him, even unintentionally.
The important thing to remember is we are saved by grace, perhaps you had some beliefs different from others, but the core tenet is that Christ was God, died and rose again and he did it for you, while you were still sinning and denying Him.

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>>84408395
I think there are layers to reality.
I think Earth exists at a lower plane of reality.

>>84411078
I think thats silly anon

This thread makes christians look like complete lunatics who need to be put in insane aslyums. How do you believe in any of this shit

You're misunderstanding the utility of the concept of Hell. People who believe in Hell are less likely to sin or do bad things, which is a net positive for society. Doesn't have to be real to have a profound benefit.

Hell doesn't exist simple as. According to Bible you don't go anywhere after death, it's just that one day Armageddon will come and after it the pious will be resurrected to live in new paradise while the sinners will stay rotting in the flaming lands(a metaphor to say it's a shithole) of Canaan

>>84411238
You got to get over your parents taking you to Sunday School anon.

>>84409546
>Do you really believe the greatest thinkers, theologians, atheists and ideological opposition have just lacked a fifth grade education to disprove the single most important cultural development in human history?
The internet?

Please. Your stupid fairy tales were a tool of the ruling class to keep you obedient. Do you think kings, popes, and lords were following the fucking bible? They were orgy-ing it up and getting the most out of life while lying to peasants to extract value from them. Life is transactional and you're on the losing side.

>somehow I interpreted ancient Jewish babbling as modern psychology. clearly this is the work of a super-Jew ultra-wizard.
Why? Lots of people with disorders cure them without magic or ghosts. You thinking you owe an invisible wizard some kind of debt for making you better with magic words is intellectually lazy, yes. It's a childish interpretation of reality that excuses you from supporting/researching any real psychology.

>the wizard made me better, I love him. Don't question me.
Intellectually lazy. Not regular lazy.
>a reluctance to engage in deep thinking, critical analysis, or effortful learning, often resulting in relying on assumptions, stereotypes, or simple, unchallenged, pre-existing beliefs