>>84615908
I don't see any country here

>>84615956
Even anons agree isarel isn't a real place. Maybe the liberals were right this time

>>84615908
what is your country then? are you making us guess or what?

>>84616003
i'm from israel and jewish i'm just not a zionist
it honestly hurts when anons are so mean to jews when a lot of us are not zionist and oppose netanyahu

>>84615996
"Joe Biden and Kamala Harris have been proud to stand with Israel and champion the shared values that unite our countries and our peoples"

The Liberal-Republican duopoly has always been a scam

>>84616009
Damn I just wanna live on Mars at this point

>>84616007
as I understand it "zionism" simply means "the state of israel should exist" while antizionism means "the state of israel should not exist." the two-state solution is zionist. do you think your country shouldn't exist?

>>84616003
>enters bait thread
>takes it seriously
>gets confused

Worst of all you bumped the thread. Never bump a thread until it has proven good

>>84615908
do you denounce zionists?

>>84616015
>>84616009
>>84615996
>>84615956
why do you hate us so much? especially us in israel

>>84616007
I don't have anything against jews , I just hate your genocidal proxy state which was built out of thin air

>>84616007
shakshuka is good and i just got into ofra haza last night. an old /x/ friend from like 2015 was israeli and joined the idf (initially trying to dodge) doing something "with computers" so i can only assume he works for mossad. another friend was israeli and heavily into /k/ and /ck/, he was very cool. i don't care about israel vs palestine at all so given this same group of old 4chan friends included a very fucking annoying and pretentious gay hamas-lover in palestine who constantly brought up gaza the old newfag 4chan israelis win this one. does this make you feel better?

>>84616026
>genocidal proxy state
did you mean
>every state in existence

>>84616016
i believe israel should exist but gaza can be free and i don't support genocide

>>84616033
sorry forgot to add
>built out of thin air
again, like
>every state in existence

>>84616016
This is what I was thinking to, and maybe I'm just insane and delusional, but a historical and religious site for people who have been persecuted since the butt crack dawn of humanity should have some sort of place to be, right? I know with Palestine and opposition from brownies of everything not Islam, but it's still a Abrahamic holy land. Isn't this kind of like Armenia part two but not Christian based? It's kind of weird how the world is just hating on people wanting to live because they're mad at teh US government but I think Isarel should in of it's own exist. I've seen people defending the holocaust and stuff, and then wish for isarel to burn down the bridges while having "Praise the Lord" in their caption. I don't know what's going on anymore

>>84616027
yes thank yo anon <3

>>84616036
why don't we simply move all the palestinians into israel and make them israeli citizens and then bomb what remains of gaza to smithereens? we can plant olive trees in the rubble. i see no problems at all with this plan.

>>84616044
>Abrahamic holy land
yes and christians muslims and jews all claiming it simultaneously on their grounds that it is their religion is kind of the massive problem here. also the fact some very warhawk us christians really really really really really want to start the apocalypse to bring about the messiah and genuinely consider trump to be the antichrist, which means we have to hurry up and have israeli reclaim the holy land so jesus can come back and get things a-rollin for the good 'uns

>>84616037
China, with its millennia-old history spanning various dynasties , is that country built on thin air? Europeans countries too? Russia as well? Your country will always remain a creation of the British Empire

>>84616045
cool. i think the hamas guy might have actually fucking died and it really tickles me to think a 16 year old israeli faggot with a mermaid fetish and 17 year old palestinian actual faggot arguing on a 4chan irc for hours endlessly in 2015 both grew up to join their respective militaries in the "terrorist" and "counter-terrorist" divisions and actually murder each other. internet isn't real life!!!!!!!!!11111

>>84616057
do you think i am israeli anon? i hope mossad gives me a bonus check for this
>China, with its millennia-old history spanning various dynasties , is that country built on thin air?
yes.
>Europeans countries too?
yes.
>Russia as well?
what's not clicking in this line of questioning for you?
>British Empire
damn i wonder what i think about that?

>>84616036
what would a free gaza look like? you know they'd just attack again right?

genocide of gazans is a real possibility if we ever wind up in world war 3 for real, since that's when genocides tend to happen. otherwise I'm not sure what will happen to them, maybe israel will start deporting them to the west bank. they're a tragically fucked group of people but they really brought it on themselves (as well as being groomed into it by sympathizers abroad).

that said israel also fucked itself with the bombing campaign and ground invasion which were just a face-saving move (when you can't do hostage negotiations after a brutal massacre but you need to pretend you're getting them back) and honestly completely pointless.

this is an american rabbi but i really love this song op.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-65uw29ms0
reminds me of the ukranian military band playing a cruel angel's thesis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrKMiE9WII0
also ofra haza is so fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l09EMrPZ3uE

>>84616086
brother they've been genociding the gazans. if israeli really wanted to they would have killed them all by now. and of course they'd attack again, they want israel to be palestine under explicitly muslim control instead of israel under explicitly jewish control. neither of them will stop until they get what they want and it is a mutually exclusive scenario, but israeli citizens are at least more diverse in their levels of tolerance and anti-war sentiment... which is completely separate from their government which is, frankly, openly genocidal under netanyahu and encouraging these sentiments among citizens while attempting to squash any israeli dissent. the people attempting to build peace coalitions across and on both sides are worth their weight in gold but western leftists kept denouncing and destroying them for the ideological crime of not being 100% anti-israel because apparently everyone in the world must be anti-jew or anti-muslim now. i suppose because christians are once again in power in the us, backed by israel, and must divide and conquer to get heat off of their own backs.

>>84616021
why does someone have to denounce someone else for you not to attack them? is every random citizen completely responsible for the actions of their government and its representative and those of their most volatile countrymen? seems like that might have some pretty damning repercussions if you actually implemented that geopolitical policy unilaterally, anonymous. i sure hope your country has never done anything terrible. i sure hope you aren't american or british, for one, on this american website typing in english.

>>84616086
>they really brought it on themselves
Aren't most of them the descendants of refugees from the 1948 war. This is why nobody likes Israelis. They whole country is fundamentally dishonest about everything, excepting a tiny slice of the population that the rest see as traitors anyway.

>>84616020
but bait threads are the absolute most fun to derail and force actual discussion! everyone just fucks off if you start taking it seriously :)

>>84616125
>They whole country is fundamentally dishonest about everything
i wonder how any country was created? hm, almost like they tend to appeal to some sort of sentiment about a return to an ancestral homeland, tradition, shared cultural values, a form of national patrioitism, perhaps a communal language, religion, or ethnicity...

>>84616131
Sure. There's parallels to Serbian nationalism, as well as any other ethnonationalist movement riddled with propaganda. What makes Israel unique is its involvement with western countries like Britain and the US, as well as the tie-in with Abrahamic religions. Even the Tigray genocide has a lot in common with it. But since that was an African conflict, it's a largely out of sight, out of mind.

>>84615908
Highest jewish mortality rate

>>84615908
I'll say something nice: one reason I think israel still has a positive place in the world is because it's the only rich country with high fertility and I think people naturally admire that. it's the only country where most people have both a hedonist phase and a fruitful family life instead of being full of bitter hags like every other country increasingly is.

also the norm for muslim countries (increasingly including europe and the US due to pushy minorities) is for the populace to be hostile to israel and the government to be friendly, because elites are more in touch with reality and would rather engage in high-value commerce with israel while maintaining the illusion of hostility than actually embargo them.

>>84616107
>because apparently everyone in the world must be anti-jew or anti-muslim now.
I think western muslims are going to find that if you force whites to choose between "globalize the intifada" and "globalize the nakba" they're going to end up choosing both. more race riots in the UK soon.

>>84615908
Its impressive in an evil way how you have such a stranglehold on US politics. Like you traffic their kids and openly kill their military personel and congress gives you a standing ovation and goes to war in your name.

>>84616196
It's because of US evangelicals. I don't know why they always seem to get a free pass.

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Seems like a beautiful country with beautiful bitches

>>84616154
i wouldn't really call the entire history of latin and central america, north africa and the middle and near east, and the scramble for africa either unique or out of sight, out of mind. the point i was attempting (i guess poorly) to make was that is any country founded on anything other than a sense of nationalism and direct historical revisionism to serve an agenda? there is no "true" history other than objective facts like dates and names, and i suppose the literal action of who killed who or blew up what. the narrative hamas and its supporters love to tout is historically revisionist as well, often acting as if palestine was somehow independent and autonomous prior to the nakba and official creation of israel. i don't think israel should have been created the way it was but i understand the many different underlying sentiments around the creation of it (and against it). i understand why everyone involved thinks the way they do. i don't think it should be anyone's war but their own, and i think the us should not be supporting israel because if it can't stand on its own then it has no right to statehood or conducting what is clearly a proxy war between the current major world powers (iran, russia, china, us, etc). clearly it's committing enough war crimes to fill a museum at the hague as is. i don't think more intervention is the answer here but apparently telling everyone to fight their own battles is gauche. understandable, given that as you pointed out, the western powers that are declining to do anything or actively funding israel caused this in the first place.

>>84616189
historically forcing majority white countries to accept large amounts of nonwhite immigrants of dramatically different cultures without enforcing assimilation has worked so, so well. how's the refugee situation in the uk going?

>>84616176
it's also the only country in the vicinity that doesn't desperately want to stone fags and trannies on sight, if they aren't already doing it. little bit of column a, little bit of column b. they call it pinkwashing for a reason.

>>84616125
>Aren't most of them the descendants of refugees from the 1948 war.
yes, and that doesn't give them an infinite license to keep attacking israel and trying to "take it back" the way they've continually done, at some point you have to look for a peaceful settlement or you're the problem. the average palestinian believes there are only 1 million jews in israel and if they just bumrush them they can send them packing back to europe a la French Algeria, and that's ultimately why the 1990s peace process failed.

gaza being part of egypt didn't work like the jews were hoping, I don't blame the palestinians for that derailment since it was never tenable, but I blame them for all the shit they've actually done to force a permanent occupation of them and which at any other time in history would've resulted in them being expelled further.

>>84616268
why exactly can they not just be incorporated into israel as full citizens - do they not WANT it or is it directly incompatible with their desire for a muslim run palestinian state and israel's explicit jewish one

>>84616268
>an infinite license to keep attacking _____ and trying to "take it back" the way they've continually done
That's just Israelis, they just happened to have better connections to Imperial Britain and the post-WW2 US.
>at some point you have to look for a peaceful settlement or you're the problem
That's exactly why Israelis are the problem -- they always intended to dispossess the residents, it's obvious from the 1800s until today. No Hamas should not be shooting up raves. But you're deliberately blind to the history of the region if you don't see this. And being that it's a small area, with land at a premium... well it's obvious why honesty doesn't fare very well.

>>84616287
hamas commiting blatant acts of terrorism against noncompatent citizens is an acceptable protest to israel's historic dispossession of palestinians and their refusal to acknowledge palestinian statehood then? if they were attacking the soldiers of the idf who are routinely humiliating them and mutilating/murdering their children, i would understand this perspective. i understand why desperate people act the way they do in times of violent oppression and how every person seems, at best, a collaborator thriving with their heel on their face. but why are you acting as if this is some obvious righteousness to rape israeli women and parade their corpses in retribution for the concentration camps where the idf was sexually abusing and starving prisoners? there is no one ethically clean in this situation, like in all war, and there is no cleansing performed by more violent acts.

>>84616311
False dichotomy anon. Don't "but Hamas" me. The roots of the conflict were largely laid by the 1920s before modern radical Islam even existed as we know it.

>>84616331
that was a direct response to you saying
>No Hamas should not be shooting up raves. But you're deliberately blind to the history of the region if you don't see this.
don't bring up hamas committing terrorist attacks if you don't want others to engage you on that topic? who even mentioned "radical islam", i'm talking about the explicit reactionary islamic palestinian group. what are they supposed to be reacting to here if not what they directly state they are: israeli subjugation of their people from the nakbah onward.

>>84616374
Hamas didn't even exist in 1948. But obviously Israelis have a strong incentive to compress the conflict away from its roots, you can even go as far back as 1848 to when the Ottomans completely fucked land reforms. With no documentation you can't easily prove a chain of ownership or residence and that led to the first questionable evictions by the British. Reconciliation probably is possible, but it requires some kind of shared understanding of history. You will never find in anyone fully committed to national narratives and propaganda, much less religious fundamentalists and expansionists.

>>84616442
>Hamas didn't even exist in 1948.
yes. that is why i said it was a reactionary group. they have to react to something. i said it was the nakbah. that has to take place before a reaction can be formed. i think we are having two entirely different conversations - i am discussing the conflict as a whole and you are rolling back the timeline to try to find a direct lineage of whom exactly is at fault here. i don't care who started it, i care about how it ends in as limited bloodshed as possible.
>With no documentation you can't easily prove a chain of ownership or residence
well now, that's as good of an argument for who came first in naming who owns the land as any, no? they're both deeply tied to the land. it is western settlers who claim that jewish heritage of any sort entitles them to settlement and displacement of historical residents who are enacting colonialism in the modern age.
>Reconciliation probably is possible, but it requires some kind of shared understanding of history. You will never find in anyone fully committed to national narratives and propaganda, much less religious fundamentalists and expansionists.
i agree. this is why i cited local peace organizations that center the shared history and cultural aspects as the true visionaries here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_peace_projects
i also specifically said that everyone hates them, especially western leftists who already love to eat their own for minor ideological differences and etiquette gaffes in the ever-shifting curricula of etymological moral purity. it's also just incredibly $$$ to keep this war going 5evar for every warhawk and weapons manufacturer involved, and don't forget the fact it's a massive mulitpolar proxy war and testing ground for advances in military weaponry, especially spycraft, drones, missiles, and memetic information warfare. and the whole abrahamic judaic-islamic-christian "who gets jerusalem tho" and millennialist eschatological obsession!

>>84616519
Why would you not care about real history when it's so often falsified and used as propaganda. I don't get your outlook at all.

>>84616287
nah, without the conflict with egypt and the palestinian irredentists israel would've been happy to stick to its 1948 borders. israel winning that war was a freak event possible only due to the eastern bloc arming them and most thought it was doomed the moment the arabs rejected the UN plan, it certainly wasn't what the early zionists had envisioned (many of whom sought a smaller state but the maximalists won because they were the only faction that could actually act upon their goals). british mismanagement of the mandate was to the detriment of both sides, they should've just partitioned it from the beginning.

palestinians aren't wrong for feeling dispossessed by the war, they're wrong for trying to refight it despite constantly losing and at this point israel is justified in feeling like it doesn't owe them anything. it is a legendary screwup by israel to let it reach this point though and they had plenty of potential offramps they didn't take, I'm not absolving them. I just think palestinian irredentism is ultimately based on a more egregious lie than zionism is.

>>84616591
? i don't even understand what you're taking issue with or trying to say here. when did i say i didn't care about real history? can you even define what "real history" is and how it differentiates from propaganda? who decides what is history? who decides who the aggressors and defendants are? who is writing the history books? how is something defined as false or true?

>>84616599
do you think that if all palestinians magically stopped fighting israel tomorrow this would stop? that sounds like it's meant as bait, it isn't. i mean: do you think israel as it is currently operating would be satisfied with that as a form of peaceful truce, or would the current netanyahu regime continue bulldozing what is left to start anew? could palestinians be incorporated into their own proper state or into an israeli one as equal citizens if the volatility ceased, or is the bloodshed too far gone to make any sort of peaceful assimilation or multi-state solution tenable?

You redeemed Nazi Germany and its policies, something previously thought impossible. Maybe there really is something special to you people.

>>84616606
Go take a college seminar, they're valid questions but you're not the first to ask them with your Gish Gallop spergout.
>>84616599
>they're wrong for trying to refight it
Wasn't the Oslo accord supposed to be the "end" of the conflict. Israel has maximalists, that's why an extremist plugged Rabin and why Netanyahu inciting against him a traitor. Israel didn't screw up, their policies have been very deliberate from the days of Herzl to today. The purpose of the country was displacing the people who lived there, to build a state for people who did not.

>>84616637
g-d's most specialist favoritest gregory berrycones to torture

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>>84615908
I despise absolutely everything about your "country" built off of the bones of my brethren. You're all settlers in a land that doesn't belong to you, and you're currently expanding those settlements into my country of Syria despite us not attacking you whatsoever post Assad.


But since you seem to be different from the vast majority of your countrymen in that you know your actions are reprehensible, there is one thing I find admirable about Israel as a linguistics student. That would of course be the revival of liturgical Hebrew into a modern language. I especially like how a lot of the gaps Hebrew had were filled by other languages like Yiddish and Arabic with some minor loanwords and syntax from Russian and even Ladino. It's an excellent model for future language revival programs like Aramaic or Gaelic. You know, ones that aren't based around the destruction and replacement of a native population.

>>84616668
Who is gregory berrycone?

>>84616599
Anon you have a case study of what happens to Palestinians when they try to make peace with Israel. Mahmoud Abbas is the leader of Fatah in the West Bank and the PA has long given up the idea of militarily defeating Israel and instead decided to give diplomacy a chance. What did they get in return? A neutered blob of bantustans with absolutely no sovereignty that constantly get harassed by settlers and are at an ever present risk of simply being annexed outright at any time. Israel will not allow Palestine to exist, period. They literally assassinated Yitzak Rabin for daring to give the 2SS a chance.

>>84616623
I think the 2nd intifada soft-killed the two-state solution and october 7 hard-killed it, so no, they're out of options. at best they could live under a peaceful apartheid regime, or better yet some kind of "managed democracy" that tacitly preserved jewish control. I'm not big on applying modern sensibilities to parts of the world that are incompatible with them, so something like that wouldn't be immoral to me.
it isn't going to happen though, most likely they're just going to be expelled and the world will deal with that as it may. and despite making that prediction I still find them to be better than their enemies.

>>84616667
perhaps you should take the seminar you recommend so you can understand the fallacies you are poorly attempting to cite. a post-structural analysis of how historigraphy is constructed and how political and national narratives are weaponized as propaganda is hardly a gish gallop, and not everyone who disagrees with you in more than two sentences and without slurs is "sperging out". "real history" as i have stated previously is a ledger of names, dates, and actions. you are citing that. i am saying i do not care about what the british empire did in the 1800s when discussing tactical planning and peace operations in the 2020s, regardless of whom i believe is more in the wrong. your obsession with who is to blame and who did what in the centuries past is irrelevant when determining actionable strategies for de-escalation in the present unless you are suggesting a system of reparations. if not, this is masturbatory historical intellectual elitism that serves no purpose other than to demonstrate how many wikipedia timelines you have personally memorized. ironically, the college seminars you suggest would be the perfect place for that. ivory tower academics do love their useless facts and existential philosophizing in lieu of action. though i do suppose a good circlejerk is "action" by definition.

what exactly is your preferred end-game scenario for the existence of israel and the israeli and palestinian people here? do you have one?

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>>84616679
the funniest thing /lit/ has ever written, way back in 2015

>>84616702
are there really even enough left to expell? from the reporting done on the region, you'd think they were all slaughtered about seven different times now. and yet, she persisted

>>84616734
you fucked it up anon, you knob

>>84616693
yeah, israel put the conflict on ice and has been stringing them along for 25 years to mollify the west and western-leaning israelis. it was wholly for show by that point, but in the 90s they were sincere and that window closed forever when the suicide attacks started again. it's not nice to frogboil people like that but it was the path of least resistance so it's what happened.
I think they should have made a more thorough and visionary effort in the 80s and 90s if they had really wanted peace, it would've been the better thing to do, but it wouldn't have been fucking easy.

>>84616671
hebrew has such a pretty script. the ancient greek alphabet is pretty too. arabic, persian, and urdu are so beautiful too. even cyrillic. truly, just about everything mogs the latin-descended english alphabet. why is it so sharp and blunt? the others are so rounded and fluid.

>>84616752
i know :( much like the one in the back of my head

>>84616679
anon meant to write blorbo

>>84615908
It's got some nice people.

>>84616671
>you're currently expanding those settlements into my country of Syria
but anon, hezbollah! lebanon! iran! the axis of resistance! terrorism!

>>84616765
I've always thought the one democratic state initiative was the only way peace could happen, but yes, the 2nd intifada killed the Israeli "left" which effectively killed the chance for Palestinian statehood. Eventually though it's my belief that once the US stops vetoing every UN resolution on Israel, they'll have to end the apartheid in the west bank and the genocide in gaza due to international pressure. I envision future Israel looking like a mix of modern South Africa and Lebanon.
>>84616782
Another unique and interesting thing about modern Hebrew is that when reviving it they specifically chose Sephardi Hebrew due to the native Jews in Jerusalem using it and due to its simplistic 5-vowel system based on Spanish and Portuguese.

>>84616716
You want to take a deep breath? I don't think there will be a resolution. Ethnic cleansing and genocides happen all the time. It's just one more.

>>84616829
i do love when anons on 4chan equate anything with effort as an emotional breakdown rather than academic boredom. it's always the last refuge after the previous attempts at claiming superiority by incorrectly citing fallacies or other bias have failed, but when you yourself have expended too much effort in the the thread already that starting to sling explicit insults or slurs comes off as regressive childishness.
>Ethnic cleansing and genocides happen all the time. It's just one more.
well, i suppose that is a resolution after all. i wonder... how would israel justify its military and intelligence operations if they were to fully expunge palestinians from the historical record? say they got what they so desired and had control of the entire area with no resistance. what would they do then? would they start expanding? i can see how the surrounding areas, like the aforementioned lebanon and syria, would be concerned by this possibility. if israel is deemed to truly be as expansionist and resource/land-hungry as, say, nazi germany or manifest destiny america, keeping the ivp war going works as an excellent distraction. money funneling into the palestinian cause less as any sort of acknowledgement of their right to exist, but as a way to sacrifice a pawn to prevent neighboring states from falling to hungry eyes. an easy corollary to ukraine and russia and many other historically disputed areas in the middle east and east and central asia, i assume. of course, that delaying of the proposed inevitable depends heavily on a lack of immediate escalation or intervention from external parties such as the current us head of state, or at least successful thwarting of any other machinations. but i suppose that is getting a bit full blown /pol/ conspiratorial. truly, the mind wonders at the possibilities.

>>84616822
it's pretty cool that you know all of this, anon. you mentioned being a linguistics student. what got you interested in linguistics in the first place? syria seems like a particularly fertile area to study languages in, given the history of the region. and given your expertise with scripts, have you ever considered constructing a language yourself?

>>84616871
>how would israel justify its military and intelligence operations if they were to fully expunge palestinians from the historical record?
It's never entirely possible, but they'd just make some shit up, like anybody else would and they already do. Why do you think I'm so interested in the gap between propaganda and history. It really shouldn't be as complicated or divisive as you're making it out to be.

>>84616884
Nah I'm still an undergrad, I know jackshit man kek
>what got you interested in linguistics in the first place
Well you are right that me being a Syrian was one of the reasons, but specifically it was because I grew up near the village Maaloula which is one of three villages in the entire country that still speak Western Neo-Aramaic. This language is of the direct lineage of languages that Jesus Christ spoke, and while the Eastern Aramaic dialect is still spoken (semi) widely by the Assyrian peoples of Iraq, Western Aramaic is nearly extinct.
>and given your expertise with scripts, have you ever considered constructing a language yourself?
Ahahaha naaaah I'm not nearly patient enough for that, most I wanna do is aid in the preservation of Western Aramaic as more than simply a liturgical language. As well as that I think learning about how languages evolve and work in general is fun.

>>84616922
i think you're falling into the specific trap of thinking one anonymous user replying to you, another anonymous user, asking open-ended questions is attempting to interrogate you specifically or debate you to find some sort of weakness to attack rather than just attempting to have a discussion on an imageboard that anyone else can reply to at any time. i was interested in your perspective because you are whom i was replying to. anyone can answer, just as they could have at any point. i'm not particularly fixated on you other than that you keep responding back. i'm talking to multiple people.
also, all history is propaganda.
>It really shouldn't be as complicated or divisive as you're making it out to be.
true! but it is. ( ._.)

also also i don't think you actually understood the question lmfao, i wasn't asking about zomg how would they write the history books and the ad copies, i was asking how they would justify their current massive military-intelligence industrial complexes and if they would roll them back (does anyone do this?) or if they would pivot to finding new opportunities to use them, and hypothesizing that the likelihood of this exact scenario is why the region operates as it has. there's literally a syrian anon in here pissed israel is expanding right now. it's not a massive leap in logic, and it's a broader discussion. you're very literal and hyperfocused on your specific niche's details rather than the larger picture, would you by any chance happen to be on the autism spectrum? being detail-oriented can be a boon, as can being a systems thinker.

>>84616957
that's really interesting anon! admittedly aramaic is one of the languages i am almost entirely unfamiliar with, so thank you for the fun fact. i'll have to look it up and do some research! can i ask why western aramaic specifically is near extinct but eastern seems prolific? is it because, as you said, it is more of a liturgical language, or is that simply the form it was mostly preserved in much like liturgical latin was in the roman catholic church?
>As well as that I think learning about how languages evolve and work in general is fun.
i think so too! that's why i like looking up about conlangs, specifically more laadan for the sapir-whorf hypothesis than the utilitarianism of something like esperanto (though ithkuil is neat), and trying to read about the reconstructions of things like proto-indo-aryan. i also really like reading about hildegard von bingen's lingua ignota, the voynich manuscript, and experiments in language like automatic or constrained writing techniques like oulipo. technically /r9k/ is considered constrained writing, or was when the board was first implemented. this place used to get very metafictional and pataphysical, lol.

>>84617085
>all history is propaganda
I don't agree, haven't you ever read 1984. There's a core difference in intent.

>>84617165
anon, this is a legitimate question: do you have an example of a historical record - i refer here specifically to countries, but you can branch it out to other topics if you would like - that you consider 100% untainted by any sort of bias or narrative framing to the point where you would call it "objective" instead of "subjective"? again, this is the entire concept of historiography.

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>>84617135
>can i ask why western aramaic specifically is near extinct but eastern seems prolific?
So I kinda alluded to this in the other post, but the main reason why Eastern Aramaic is comparitively far better off is because it is spoken by an ethnolinguistic group called the Assyrians within mostly Iraq (although small populations do live in Syria, Turkey, and Iran) whereas the Western dialect was purely used as a liturgical language in the Syriac-rite churches in the levant (such as the Maronites). Gradually the people in the levant adopted Arabic as the new lingua franca which eventually turned into the native language. Although it's worth mentioning that levantine Arabic dialects have a substantial amount of influence from pre-arabic languages like Aramaic. Similarly Arabic spoken in North Africa is highly influenced by the Amazigh languages present there and the Arabic in Egypt is even influenced by Coptic. Arabic as a language is far more of a gradient than a single unified thing despite MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) being used in most academic settings and for writing (except Morocco which still uses Darija for both of those).
>technically /r9k/ is considered constrained writing, or was when the board was first implemented
There's actually a case to be made that modern western youth vernacular has two main influences. African Americans and Incel communities such as /r9k/. Slang is often used to signify in-group knowledge as a way to set those within the group apart from those outside of it, yet when leaked into the general populace, these things which used to signify cultural isolation quickly become counter-cultural and thus cool in the minds of the younger generation. This pattern has also happened before in places like Britain where the stereotypical accent arose primarily due to the gentry speaking it as a way to set themselves apart from the unwashed masses. Those same masses however soon adopted that same accent as a way to signify class, and voila.

Evil. Just pure evil. I wish I could turn your people's into a sheet of nuclear glass

>>84617135
>i think so too! that's why i like looking up about conlangs
I love conlangs too, in fact, I think my favorite types of language scripts are those constructed for the Native Americans by European missionaries or even by the Natives themselves like Inuktitut and Cherokee. Another interesting case is Navajo which is unique among languages due to its high reliance on tonal variation and its giant number of vowels which themselves change with the pitch used. Although I think the most famous example of a constructed languge would probably be Tolkien, who himself was a linguist. Like the Elven languages, despite being inspired by Nordic and Celtic languages, were so unique and recognizable. Sindarin especially is very pleasing to listen to.

>>84617135
>specifically more laadan for the sapir whorf hypothesis than the utilitarianism of something like esperanto
I find it quite ironic how much effort was put into incorporating various European languages into the amalgamation for the purpose of a single international lingua franca, just for English to slot into that roll regardless.
>i also really like reading about hildegard von bingen's lingua ignota, the voynich manuscript
Would you perhaps be interested in learning about smaller language scripts developed by tribal peoples in places like Africa and Oceania? I was reading about the Rongorongo glyphs on Easter Island and found it veey interesting. Additionally there's fun thinks in central Africa like the Lusona temporal mnemonic devices or the Lukasa memory boards which functioned as a very primitive tactile writing system like braille. Despite not being full on language scripts, these were both very unique and interesting ways of conveying information through proto-writing.

>>84617263
now this is a classic old /r9k/ effortpost! your description of the language diffusion in the levant and north africa is absolutely fascinating, syrianon. i'm going to go look up all of those. i'll confess, the knowledge i have about the amazigh people is limited to a single transnational adoptee who mostly yelled at people for using the word "berber" the same way roma often do with "gypsy" and the inuit with "eskimo". totally understandable, but her discussion on the topic was pretty much just diasporic feelings and difficulties with cultural erasure and reclamation having been raised in a white household where assimilation was expected, with the occasional observation about traditional clothing and tattoos. thank you for the keywords to research! your point about lingua francas makes perfect sense, but what a shame when they (like english) supplant indigenous languages rather than act as a bridge. at least we get loanwords!

what an astute observation you've made about modern slang stemming from aave and online communities as well. i've long felt that 4chan, but for some reason /r9k/ in particular and its derivatives like the .is forums, has had a surprisingly outsized effect on language in the digital era which no ones seems to acknowledge. sure, they discuss memes and perhaps "incel, chad, beta, simp, cuck" etc but we've entered a new period since shortly before the pandemic where words seem to be mixing instead of just entering the vernacular. all of the -maxxing, -pilled, -cel and whatnot, for instance. and consider how wojaks have completely morphed. pepe may have been involved with the alt-right, but the people have completely seized the memes of production regarding wojaks, especially the blonde chad/trad male/female ones. seeing all the different variations on the female one alone across various ethnicities and subcultures is fascinating. i wonder what moot and the others think of this. i know they already feel oddly about "weeaboo".

>>84617345
ah, navajo! that always brings to mind the navajo code talkers of wwii. i originally stopped despising learning languages in school specifically because of an early interest in cryptography and, upon learning about the code talkers, began seeing translation as a system of substitution and mathematical ciphers which could then be expanded upon when doing interpretation and localization. it shifted the perspective from "oh my god i hate french and spanish class so goddamn much and the only word i remember out of this japanese dictionary is 'baka'" to a lifelong interest in building and breaking complex ciphers, which is what i started writing everything in around elementary school for fun. this annoyed teachers. a lot! and then came the realization that translation itself could be an art form, as seen in david bentley hart's translation of the new testament, martha collins' into english, the bilingual "the defiant muse" series, emily wilson's translation of the odyssey, and not to mention the mary barnard vs anne carson translations of sappho's poetry! i look forward to getting around to sophus helle's collection of the complete poems of enheduana soon, and reading a bit more by li qingzhao, mirabai, yosano akiko, and forugh farrokhzad. translation studies are so fun, but it kills me to be unable to master all the original languages for the full intended effect. damn that critical period!

speaking of pleasing languages for the ears, i think the bantu languages are some of the most beautiful for speech. they tend to sound so melodic, fluid, and round to me. some forms of spanish do as well, but it depends on the dialect and accent. african languages have interesting features divided by sex as well, such as the isihlonipo practice in hlonipha by married women of the zulu and xhosa (and less so basotho) peoples, and the different male and female languages of the people of ubang in nigeria.

>>84615908
your country will be the next empire, after the modern world collapses.

i don't make the rules, it's not my fault white people are so retarded they can't even figure out it might not be a good idea to stop breeding and completely replace yourselves with immigrants.

>>84617383
heh, it is pretty funny when you think about it. it also makes things like the futuristic language amalgamations in firefly pretty funny in retrospect (as if they weren't when they aired at the time!).
>Would you perhaps be interested in learning about smaller language scripts developed by tribal peoples in places like Africa and Oceania?
i would very much be interested in this! i know just about next to nothing about easter island or oceania at all. what did you find interesting about the glyphs? i'll have to go look up the lusona and lukasa you mentioned. i always wondered how tactile systems like braille or things like sign language translate worldwide. i know there is specifically AMERICAN sign language, but is that sign language considered an equivalent lingua franca like english elsewhere, or is sign language adapted specifically to each language and, since we specified american, variations like american vs british as well? how different would they be, and why? it almost sounds like a charade version of hieroglyphics at that point, and i can only imagine that if sign language functions that way braille must as well... but then perhaps not at all given that a lack of sight would completely change this... or would it be similarly different because of the representation of the sounds through the tactile script? how different is each language from another, anyway? i guess that's the root of the sapir-whorf hypothesis. i'm sure we all know about the little fun facts about how the ancient greeks viewed colors and the many different words there are in specific languages for what might be flattened into just one or two concepts in another. "story of your life" by ted chiang, later the film arrival, touched on this concept beautifully with the nonlinear temporal aspects of the alien language, but i also liked "tower of babylon" from the same compendium. i always pair it with "the library of babel" by jorge luis borges in my mind as a little duology.

>>84616022
Because you're evil murderous bastards, and you demand we support your ethnostate while also demanding we have our homelands flooded with brown people.

>>84617861
well the brown people they're not killing have to go somewhere anon

>>84618014
They can go to the country of Palestine formerly known as Israel

>>84618141
bit hard to do when the jews kill the rest of them and declare israel officially a pal-free zone, frens only. or are we looping this in an ouroboros here? doing an uno reverse card on your refugees just to intentionally genocide them by sending them back into the judean warzone... now that's a big brained move

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>>84615908
I commend you for genociding as many muslims as possible. Thank you for doing everyone a favor. We tried our best, but your numbers make ours look like rookie numbers.

t.Serb

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>>84618200
oy vey kike

>>84618200
>>84618237
i'm never going to understand what the difference is between your orthodox muslim hebrew hybrid slavic baltic states and why you hate each other so much. it is far too late in the game to ask what a serbian or armenian is and why is the genocide of one super duper especially bad, aren't they all just muslim lite TM like turks and persians, but godspeed on your journey to kill as many of the other as fast and furious as possible. you put every other geographic region to shame, except maybe the four asian tigers and general clusterfuck that is east and central asia. i hope you all get your own rape of nanjing and tiananmen square and each a harem of comfort women and local unit 731 like you so desperately seem to want some day soon, if you haven't already. onward to the shudan jiketsu, gentleman, may we all be so blessed.

>>84615908
You've got bunch of Poles there.

>>84615908
>im not a zionist btw
cuck for muslims

>>84618407
how would one cuck the muslims in this scenario? killing them just wipes them off the map, that isn't comparable to being forced into the cuck chair.