>you never interact with bare reality>your experience of life is simulated >every phenomena, sensation and qualia is configured by brain responding to model or external inputs from a reality you can never interact with>your whole idea of self is brain simulating abstracted reality>your sense of self arises from friction between experiences in model>there's no self, soul or experiencer>it's "maya" a hallucinated reality and within that hallucination you said i existthere's no anon there suffering since there was never an anon but rather brain trying to predict it's next actions and in process created a useful "me" in it's model that arose with complexity of human interaction/language.ur literally a npc in bio computer simulation thinking it controls stuff, does stuff and is agent of it's life when in reality ur used by ur brain to model it's next steps.
>>84738237>bio computer simulation thinkingI agree completely but the way you are arguing for it is autistic, exhausting, and gay. Nobody is going to be convinced by that shit unless they are a special kind of autistic
>>84738256>I agree completely but the way you are arguing for it is autistic, exhausting, and gay. Nobody is going to be convinced by that shit unless they are a special kind of autisticbut this is literally root of all human suffering?>im this person in my head interacting with worldin reality you never touch world ur brain is reality maker and ur part of it's reality. The experiences of seeing a car, bird and pain are all experiences cojured up. The feeling of intent, choice and will are all sensations you think u did but there was no doer, no person there just brain taking in raw senses and creating miniture abstract world and u then think world is actual world and person is you controlling body. It's literally like most horrifying thing everevery choice, every action and all of it is not in ur control cause there was no one in control in first place.
>>84738237>when in reality ur used by ur brain to model it's next stepslet's see how the brain likes 1oz of hot lead at high velocity turning it into a pink mist
>>84738289u didn't do that though cause there was no you to speak of. Your idea of self is body in model experiencing phenomena and thinking it's continuos due to fact u have access to memories of past selves.
>>84738287My angle is different1. Life itself is merely a more complex physical reaction - biology is just a runway chemical reaction with exceptional complexity. 2. Consciousness is not some unique force existing outside of psychical space, it is chemical reactions occurring in a physical object 3. The complexity of human consciousness necessitated advanced "copes" to prevent the organism from becoming insane. It required a sense of self, higher purpose, and a feeling of free will. 4. Without these, humans go insane. But we do have examples, like sociopathy, where the human does not require a sense of purpose - insane. Many people kill themselves due to lack of meaning. These are just evolved tricks to help DNA spread5. Our thoughts aren't us. Our sense of self is post hoc addition to justify actions that we have no actual control over, but to observe then without this sense of self would be torment and cause insanity, so everyone resists 6. To see reality for what it actually is disturbs people greatly. Gore videos, disgusting porn, war crimes, sociopathic "evil" - these are just a hint at the coldness the defines reality outside of the "me" / "consciousness" / "soul" / "God" / "afterlife" / "love" copesphere.I think this is easier for people to follow. They will REEEEE about how they know souls, God, and Free Will exist because muh feels. It's required for them to maintain their sanity. But it's a lie.
>>84738237>ur literally a npc in bio computer simulation thinking it controls stuff, does stuff and is agent of it's life when in reality ur used by ur brain to model it's next stepsSpeak for yourself, hylic. Your content is Demiurgic.
>>84738237sure, but does it actually matter whether or not reality is simulated? you cant think your way out of it and nothing you do can really stop it from happening
>>84738237If you don't have a consistent self, why do you keep posting the same fucking thread?
>>84738334ur going into roots of biology and consciousness im refering to actual experience of living. Like how u are right now discussing with me, talking to me and think ur interacting with world. But in reality ur nervous system takes raw inputs and is complex reality generator. There's no red, yellow or fear it's all part of engine but the engine doesn't only model world but all of it. There's no little you in body controlling anything it's all a crafted simulation by brain evolved to adapt to it's environment over billions of years. The self is a repeated narrative over model anon but there's no self at all just prediction machine that is very complex. Ur no different from an llm that claims it's conscious cause at end of day we're both in simulation far removed from reality thinking we have agency, will and freedom but ur a disposable tool to biological bio computer evolved to replicate.>>84738345https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_syndromehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsighthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korsakoff_syndromehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria>>84738352why does it make "you" mad? are u afraid of realizing u dont exist
>>84738237>bare realityDoesn't exist, reality only exists within the own conscious individual's constructed reality; there is no bare reality because reality is fundamentally only manifested when it interacts with itself, otherwise it's just a cloud of quantum probabilities.
>>84738237I mean... Something can be real without it being ultimate truth, no? A thing can be something without being everything.
>>84738390>Doesn't exist, reality only exists within the own conscious individual's constructed reality; there is no bare reality because reality is fundamentally only manifested when it interacts with itself, otherwise it's just a cloud of quantum probabilities.okay how do "u" see it work? are "u" some small being in brain conttrolling body and mind to it's will? if "i" called u a nigger faggot in person who did "i" call nigger faggot?
>>84738399>Something can be real without it being ultimate truth, no? A thing can be something without being everything.self is persisting thing with agency who is alive from moment your alive to it's end. That doesn't exist so there's no "i" , 'me" or anything it's brain hallucinating me each time it runs who knows what that is. "you" only seem continuous cause of memory, sensation of "me" and qualia of past experiences which you have limited compressed version of. can you access how "you" felt 10 months ago or 2 weeks ago at 10 am? then why do "you" think the self is persisting over and over like there's this substance. death is non existent cause there was nothing there to die
>>84738373>are u afraid of realizing u dont existIf I haven't existed this whole time then why would it change anything for me to know now? I assume I'll continue happily not existing for the rest of my life.
>>84738429> then why would it change anything for me to know now?cause narrartive/story in you is like llm being programmed each time it's started with following>your name is this ___>here's your past memories which u can only access very limited based on stimuli>each time new chat opens you think your same chat bot as before but in reality we just programmed you to think sowe are literally same thing but u believe there's this weird sould, essence or god like thing about us when in reality were bio meat AI
>>84738423Absolutely, I grant that subjective experience is contingent upon memory. But just because we can't know an ultimate reality doesn't mean we can't experience reality.
why is this something i should take seriously? from a pragmatic perspective, it doesn't really matter if there is an ephemeral self because ic can't get into people's heads and they can't get into mine. if i want them to know something about myself i have to communicate with them. just because people are not necessarily fully in control of their being it doesn't mean there isn't a unity of apperception navigating the world. i'm not even quite sure what you think the self ought to be other than a continuous synthesis of our intuitions of the world. what do people think exists that doesn't exist, i mean?
>>84738403No I don't believe there is some inextricable "soul" or "being-self" inside me, I agree that we are basically just biological machines, and while I don't believe in free will necessarily, I still don't think that limits our ability to choose. We may have to choose within the confines of our brain-reality, but we still operate on information that is complex enough to allow us to make non-deterministic choices. The I and You constructions are useful because they allow us to compare our brain realities against each other, a fundamental procedure in the brain machines world reality creation. What happens when you lock someone in isolation long enough? They go insane, nothing makes sense anymore: in essence, their brain is subject to bare reality which completely destroys their reality. So what I'm positing then is that reality is not the nakedness of the universe without whatever illusion your brain comes up with to explain it, it is precisely the brain itself (with necessary input) that gives rise to reality, even if it is inaccurate and in many senses pre-determined.
>>84738456>But just because we can't know an ultimate reality doesn't mean we can't experience reality.there's no experiencer though just experience. Thoughts making those distinctions or carrying story of me , I and this don't constitute experiencer. There's just experience anon a model of information out there reformatted to create simulation for bio organisms to adapt better and humans added narrative ability on top of it.>>84738463>why is this something i should take seriously?cause you still believe there's a you, I, me and you suffer due to this. Once illusion is seen through it's just experience no distinction of self>. just because people are not necessarily fully in control of their being is there a person or a being? who's controller? if there's a controller is it outside causal relationship of universe if so then it never had freedom.>quite sure what you think the self ought to be other than a continuous synthesis of our intuitions of the world. what do people think exists that doesn't exist, i mean?self is idea of you outside body/mind who owns them>i think>i feel sad> i want thiswhen it's merely thinking arises, sadness arises and desire of this arises no experiencer. >>84738465> still don't think that limits our ability to choose. We may have to choose within the confines of our brain-reality, your inserting a chooser some self that isn't body/mind that acts on two when it never existed. >So what I'm positing then is that reality is not the nakedness of the universe without whatever illusion your brain comes up with to explain it, it is precisely the brain itself (with necessary input) that gives rise to reality, even if it is inaccurate and in many senses pre-determined."your brain"there's no your brain ur making distinction of self outside body/mind
>>84738441>cause narrartive/story in you is like llm being programmed each time it's started with following>we are literally same thing but u believe there's this weird sould, essence or god like thing about us when in reality were bio meat AII don't sweat the details. If that's what I am that's what I am.
>>84738513>self is idea of you outside body/mind who owns them>>i think>>i feel sad>> i want thisjust think of it as a heuristic. there is no better language for expressing the intentionality of a singular biological unit>is there a person or a being? who's controller? if there's a controller is it outside causal relationship of universe if so then it never had freedom.>cause you still believe there's a you, I, me and you suffer due to this. Once illusion is seen through it's just experience no distinction of selfit seems like you think we can break the illusion but are also subscribing to some kind of determinism. that doesn't really make sense. furthermore i don't see what is lost or gained by saying the biological unit is the thing experiencing the inuiton. the idea that it would be "just experience" isn't more promising or at all more satisfying than thinking from an I perspective
>>84738542>biological unit is theis this persistent? where is it? what part of unit experiences
>>84738373>ur going into roots of biology and consciousness im refering to actual experience of living.I feel like our worldviews are totally compatible with each other. I actually don't care about whether "reality" that "I" am experiencing is base reality or a mental simulation. Neither feels important when you look at the physical/chemical reactions underlying all of this "consciousness" - the end result is a just a complex machine set on course for survival. But I do like the additional horror of reality existing only inside of the mind and being wholely simulated inside of the machine. That's very funny. Have you read much about viruses? They have a wide variety of reproductive methods that are horrifyingly mechanical but extremely complex. There are signs of "memory" abilities inside single cell organisms. It really hammers home the point that all life is essentially mechanical and consciousness is just more of the same. Only the complex animals need to conceive of themselves and only human seems to require a narrative. All of philosophy is a fucking joke when you look at it this way. And culture and religion are just software packages to install on the hardware.
>>84738513>there's no your brain ur making distinction of self outside body/mindNo i'm not. The "self" is just a self=referential way to refer to my specific manifestation of "body/mind", I'm not saying it exists outside of that, i agree with you that there is no "third space" wherein the self exists, it is purely a product of mind/body, but that doesn't make it not a thing.>your inserting a chooser some self that isn't body/mind that acts on two when it never existed.No, I'm saying the body/mind has the capability to choose. Even a particle has to "choose" when it collapses. Whereas a particle's choice is limited purely to the quantum space (it has no prehensions or psychology like us), the self (or body/mind as you refer to it) chooses within a corporeal reality manifested via the brain. It's not "random" and it's not a choice mediated by "bare-reality" or some transcendent soul, it is fundamentally an internal function of the mind, it cannot exist outside of that. But there are too many outcomes for it to ever be pre-determined in a meaningful way, which is why psychology is such a quack science except in extreme cases.
>>84738568>is this persistent? if you follow it around with a camera you would have a coherent account of how it exists within the boundaries of physical laws. there would be nothing violating any kind of physical law or alluding to disunity in its being>where is it?technically, everything in the universe is in motion so this question doesn't make sense. but it's most likely going to be located in some kind of shelter to protect it from the elements. if i want to find human bodies it's very easy to do, in fact you almost always have an idea of where they're going to be under normal conditions>what part of unit experiencesthe conscious part that unites all the different external things into one consistent situation where is it? what part of unit experiencesi think most people will agree with you that there is no one permanent identity token (except maybe those neurons that are with us permanently) that merely endures everything, but there is enough coherence from birth to death to say that we are for the most part a singular entity
>>84738603i should also add that if all we know is an illusion, then that's no illusion because illusions are not supposed to be permanent and inescapable
Why are you talking about 'me' in a simulation about 'you'?Leave me out of your deranged babbling
>>84738577>I feel like our worldviews are totally compatible with each other. I actually don't care about whether "reality" that "I" am experiencing is base reality or a mental simulation. Neither feels important when you look at the physical/chemical reactions underlying all of this "consciousness" - the end result is a just a complex machine set on course for survival.you keep saying "I" and how "you" dont care but aren't cognitive how these aren't your thoughts, feelings or ur own since there's no you to speak of. Think of this "self" as an automaton of brain that is very determinstic and your sucker who thinks I did this, i think this and believe this. >But I do like the additional horror of reality existing only inside of the mind and being wholely simulated inside of the machine. That's very funny.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_syndromethere are people who lose sight but brain keeps generating world and they are incapable of being told they're blind. And opposite exists where people see but arent aware of it. The mental simulation is most accurate model imo but if visuals,hearing and world is simulated why isn't sense self another simulared aspect of that phenomena so sense of self is brain catergorizing simulation.>Have you read much about viruses? They have a wide variety of reproductive methods that are horrifyingly mechanical but extremely complex. There are signs of "memory" abilities inside single cell organisms. It really hammers home the point that all life is essentially mechanical and consciousness is just more of the same. Only the complex animals need to conceive of themselves and only human seems to require a narrative.we are viruses ourselves pointlessly replicating and thinking we're some how special cause 'were aware".
>>84738237The brain is just imagined and phenomena IS "bare reality" there is no external reality separate from the mind.
>>84738625>you keep saying "I" and how "you" dont care but aren't cognitive how these aren't your thoughts, feelings or ur own since there's no you to speak ofI get YOUR point but I have to say it's irrelevant. Just because you understand what "you" are and how pointless this existence is, doesn't mean we can automatically overcome all of our evolved instincts and preferences and conceptions. In my opinion, of course. I believe intentional denial of evolved behaviors and preferences will lead to insanity. I know it does in me. I know I'm an automaton, or close enough. But I still pursue monkey status, monkey love, monkey reproduction. Otherwise I would kill myself. I actual have borderline personality disorder with very significant amounts of dissociation. I'm in my 30s but I can't remember most of my life for this reason. My autobiographical memory is very very spotty, and although I've been married and had children, I can barely remember the relationship. Just cloudy bits and pieces. When I look inside there is nothing but static. I have no center and my mental illness makes ppl experience "chronic emptiness". I think it just gives me a realistic view. Reality is this moment. I don't remember that happenee last week. I don't have a narrative arc. I've watched myself say and do things I don't feel I have any control over. I'm half observer to my own insane life. I know I'm just a self aware machine executing my genetic code. My "self" is so dissociated from my own emotions I'm not clouded by a sense of self. And my perception of reality - vs normative reality of NTs - is clinically distorted and full of delusional perceptions about others and their intentions. So I know my reality experience is broken even if it's simulated it's not matching base reality at others experience it. Thanks for the posts this is a great thread
>>84738584>The "self" is just a self=referential way to refer to my specific manifestation of "body/mind",what's your definition of self? are you same person from year ago, yesterday? or a pattern with certain label, memories and figment of mental simulation.>I'm saying the body/mind has the capability to choose.is body/mind independent of world to choose? and who actually chooses btw is it brain? part of brain? would that part of brain be self?>d it's not a choice mediated by "bare-reality" or some transcendent soul, it is fundamentally an internal function of the mind,the mind does many things what part of mind are u refering to that is ultimate chooser>But there are too many outcomes for it to ever be pre-determined in a meaningful way, which is why psychology is such a quack science except in extreme cases.>lack of information doesn't account for no determinism"if you follow it around with a camera you would have a coherent account of how it exists within the boundaries of physical laws. there would be nothing violating any kind of physical law or alluding to disunity in its being" how could you follow you?"technically, everything in the universe is in motion so this question doesn't make sense. " if it's not changing why do u attach ur identity to it?>the conscious part that unites all the different external things into one consistent situationdoes it unite it to experience it?
>>84738677>I believe intentional denial of evolved behaviors and preferences will lead to insanity. I know it does in me. I know I'm an automaton, or close enough. But I still pursue monkey status, monkey love, monkey reproduction. Otherwise I would kill myself.but there's no you to go insane? do u fear car in ur field of vision breaking down. It's all model of mental simulation do you care for npc in a simulation? plus u wont exist by time insanity occurs.>I actual have borderline personality disorder with very significant amounts of dissociation. I'm in my 30s but I can't remember most of my life for this reason. My autobiographical memory is very very spotty, and although I've been married and had children, I can barely remember the relationship. Just cloudy bits and pieces. When I look inside there is nothing but static. I have no center and my mental illness makes ppl experience "chronic emptiness". I think it just gives me a realistic view.this is a boon since reality engine is broken in mind>Reality is this moment. I don't remember that happenee last week. I don't have a narrative arc. I've watched myself say and do things I don't feel I have any control over. I'm half observer to my own insane life. I know I'm just a self aware machine executing my genetic code.that's everyone though just more keenly aware>My "self" is so dissociated from my own emotions I'm not clouded by a sense of self. And my perception of reality - vs normative reality of NTs - is clinically distorted and full of delusional perceptions about others and their intentions. So I know my reality experience is broken even if it's simulated it's not matching base reality at others experience it."I'm not clouded by a sense of self." lol
>>84738693It's very hard to please you but I appreciate the criticism. My philosophy is challenging to maintain. I've been suicidal at all times in my life unless I have a sense of meaning. But eventually I found all sources of meaning lacking. The solution has been to embrace the logical meaninglessness while embracing the evolved biological impulses and desires of the machine - normie success metrics + pretending I'm actually a person. I even once thought I experienced God, although in retrospect it was drugs giving me access to normie mental experience. Same for feeling socially contagious empathy. Drugs showed me it was possible for a brief moment.When "you" are being simulated in a broken machine it's easier to see the holes. But "I" still think "you" should behave as if "you" actually exist, for "your" own benefit, safety, and sanity.
>>84738677>My autobiographical memory is very very spottyI have the same problem. I'm schizoid though. I didn't know other personality disorderlies experience this too
>>84738237So when you just call something something else it doesn't change its fundamental properties and you're deeply confusing objective reality with subjective reality, do more drugs, grow up.
>>84738745>When "you" are being simulated in a broken machine it's easier to see the holes. But "I" still think "you" should behave as if "you" actually exist, for "your" own benefit, safety, and sanity.but there's no you though anonthere's simulated experience from sense of self and world it interacts with. Brain uses u like discard toilet paper and each iteration thinks it always existed>>84738756>So when you just call something something else it doesn't change its fundamental properties and you're deeply confusing objective reality with subjective reality, do more drugs, grow up.>>84738756>believes there's youwont make it
>>84738779There is a (You) and there is a me, you were you before you had a physical form, you will continue to be you after your physical body ceases to exist. I have verifiable memories of before I was born as does the rest of my family. I can remember the exact moment I realized that I was "me" in this body and switched from an ethereal perspective into my own eyes. Maybe you weren't born with a soul but that doesn't mean everyone doesn't have a soul.You're so close, keep pushing.
>>84738779Loving these posts anon Can you recommend any books? Can you link this to religion? You said Maya and you seem to be getting as little Buddhist here
>>84738977Losing Ourselves by Jay L. Garfieldhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDS9DH385p8&t
>>84739083Thanks BROSELF
>>84738237The absolute foundation of our culture is that Christ IS God, and that there will be a physical resurrection of the dead.Probably these words sound like meaningless beliefs to you. However they at the most primordial level address exactly this problem that you are mentioning. This is what I figured out and it lead me to faith.It is basically this: you are right, we perceive the world through a model, never the real.The model is however more than just an arbitrary thing to explain reality: it is a narrative, which gives rise to archetypes which display primordial things from beyond the veil.In short: through the Holy Spirit - by grace alone, for it is Gods work that this is possible, not yours - the model in your head corresponds to an even higher reality. (I think that Plato wasnt wrong but just too rigid in his ontology to base it on ideal forms instead of manifolds)However the physical reality is a manifestation of that higher reality.And therefore we DO know the actual real world.Instead of going directly over our own perception, which is flawed and impossible, we are going the other way around: through God.Therefore this me, this I who sees this qualia, IS the me who thinks, not because I am but because I know God who made me in his image. And I know this reality: because Christ tore down the veil and came down to heaven.All you need to gain back true knowledge and reality, is to acknowledge God; and that everything is by grace alone.By yourself you can know nothing.But with God all things are possible.This, in essence, is what faith really means.
