Do you lean more toward Fate or PbtA?
>>92543116Not a fan of either. Too stripped-down. If I want to play a relatively mechanically lightweight game I'll play something like the older WFRP or Barbarians of Lemuria.
I like stuff like Modiphius's 2d20 system
>>92543116PbtA is much more coherent provided you stay on genre. It's less flexible, but I much prefer it to Fate/Fudge.
>>92543116I like my games to have more weight as a game to them. A lot of good meaty games also have a strong narrative focus like the Call of Cthulhu and Warhammer FRP 2e. Even middling narrative games like OVA can be pretty good with the right group. But the moment you start getting into playbook characters, it starts feeling like an even worse version of the D&D class system. I don't have enough experience with Fate/Fudge, but I think the dice are neat.
>>92543116Of the most fun game campaigns I have ever played in, most of them were PbtA or Fate based. The best characters, villains, threats, quests, all of it. I struggle to think of memorable happenings from mechanics heavy games that weren't just a mathematically improbable result upsetting outcome oriented expectations. CoC stands out because it turns into a game of outlasting your friends while roleplaying comically unprepared characters. Other than that I'll play a PbtA or Fate game over anything else given a choice.
>>92543116Narrative systems aren't games.
>>92545266Then why are they so often called storygames?
>>92545426Because you're an amateur writing trying to force peiple to act out your manuscript, entirely missing the whole point of a TTRPG, the complete creative freedom and emergent narrative. The "story" is what you recount to people after the session.
>>92545426Because retards often use misnomers.
>>92545453>the complete creative freedom and emergent narrativejust like writing a story
I like WoD and NWoD/CofD games which are very narrative focused but they're not rules-lite, I dislike that some people seem to conflate the two. PBTA shit has more in common with Tunnels and Trolls than it does Vampire.
>>92543116I don't get them. PbtA games appear to me as very restrictive with its playbooks and I couldn't find tules to help me run a campaign. There are like no rules, but at the same time too much rules.But I do prefer narrative-driven games. I played GMed dungeon crawls when I was a child.
>>92543116>PbtAThey're half-backed "games" with no clear procedures on how to handle the shared narrative most of the times>FateBetter than PbtA, although may require some time to be fully digested by playersNow the real shit: Primetime Adventures.THIS is a story game properly designed, how do you ask? The difference with other narrativist games like Fate or PbtA is that PA is designed to EMULATE a very specific narrative media: TV series. PbtA and Fate are generic chassis made to encapsulate a way of playing rather than a pre-existing genre or structure (and therefore bland and ultimately useless compared to non-narrative games).>Inb4 b-but what about non-narrativist generic systems! They're also shit right?Depends, if they have a clear design goal no (eg: gurps tries to emulate "heroic realism" so it's fine in my book).
>>92545453>>92545456Can someone who isn't a mouth breathing retard who uses 4chan as a replacement for actual games please answer >>92545426?
>>92546893How about picrel?
>>92543116I like my "narrative-focused" better when it's strict roleplay. The players tell the ref what their characters do or at least attempt, and the ref decides the results. Gaining narrative control takes me out of character. Instead of being there and trying desperately to evade the blows of a cyberpsycho, I'm suddenly supposed to narrate how cool this edgerunner is - but I was him just a moment ago!
>>92543116PbtA has some interesting ideas, but I just find it both too restrictive and and too abstract at the same time. I understand why it does most of the things it does and find it even somewhat cool, but it just doesn't really work for the way I run games. Haven't tried FateBut honestly, all of the best campaigns I've ever ran or played in (in terms of emerging story, immersion character development, atmosphere etc.) were ran on much more traditional systems, like WoD, Warhammer or CoC. I find that system isn't that important for quality of narrative and immersion as long as it's not too game'y and detracting from the story, while on the other hand no system is going to change a shitty player who can't roleplay into a good one. Systems matter, but for setting up the tone of the game and making it enjoyable
>>92546939ntayrt Do phoneposted screenshots from the archives cut out the timestamp?
>>92548553I just cut out the rest of the post because it was about a petty argument between two autists but the definition was good enough so i saved it, anyway here's the link:https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/91130487/#91130853
>>92546939>is asked to post something not from a mouthbreather>posts a screencap of someone who types like a fucking mouthbreather and says nothing but inane bullshit
>>92548635Is there even a possible, feasible definition that could satisfy you in any way or are you going to reject anything regardless? If yes i may try to give it a shot otherwise i have better things to do than engaging in an infinite chain of replies with a faggot.
>>92544124What games were you running for the PbtA campaigns?
>>92548712All you need to do is not be a mouth breathing retard who uses 4chan as a replacement for actual games.
>>92543116Dogs in the Vineyard
>>92548832Very well:>Story gameA game about storytelling. These games are designed to control the narrative produced by all participants to the point that some of them don't even need a "referee" figure like traditional ttrpgs. In these games the character traits aren't weighted on how much theur abilities affect the world but on how much relevant they are to the narrative, for example in a game like Primetime Adventures you can have a "Superman & Jimmy Olsen" game with Jimmy having numerical higher values in his traits than Supes.
>>92543116>faggotFuck off with your non-game PbtA faggot.
>>92548765The Sprawl and Urban Shadows are the ones I've played the most.
>>92543116When I want to focus on a narrative, I just work on one of my novels.
> Which system do you prefer?The one used by Thirsty Sword Lesbians. Makes it superior by default.
>>92552647Isn't that just a woke version of Busty Barbarian Bimbos?
>>92552776I guess. It's primarily focused on characters and relationships. Your PC cannot even die in combat: they can only be afflicted with emotional conditions they have to work through. The funniest part is that your campaign doesn't even need to be about swordfighting or lesbians for it to work.
>>92543116I hate this system. Not fun.
>>92546893Storygames is what rpg players call games made by storygamers. In a storygame your goal is to collectively tell a story as a group. In an roleplaying game your goal is to create a world and roleplay in it. Roleplaying =/= Storytelling. If your players are actively engaging with your world, immersing themselves in it and their characters, they are likely to make decisions that derail any story the DM has laid out for them to follow. RPGs are an awful vehicle for storytelling, but an amazing one for roleplaying. Storygamers shunned DnD and created their own games to better facilitate what they believe is the "true purpose of the RPG", which they believe is storytelling. Eventually those games evolved into the PbtA system.And I'm not saying either side is right, play what you want and pick a system that facilitates how you want to play. But they are fundamentaly different from rpgs with different goals and a different design philosophy, which is why people started calling them storygames and not roleplaying game.
The only PbtA gane I liked is Kult Divinity Lost and that's because the narrativist playstyle actually made sense within the context of the world, so it somehow became a simulationist game instead.
This one is fine, as far as I read it
I like the FATE skill pyramid and steal it for my own games but I prefer PbtA. By which I mean Apocalypse World.I hate PbtA but the original game is great. You need to encounter it several times over the space of a few years to finally "get it" but the rulebook paints such an engaging picture of a world with constant threats on all sides from tons of factions, characters overwhelmed by too much to deal with, tons of drama. hate that characters can't die without player "consent" even if you unload a shotgun into their face at pointblank range, but the implied setting is cool. I did get an online PbP game going (required if you're gonna use the sex mechanics, honestly). People made cool characters and I was looking forward to the game. But it died, and I just don't have the mental capacity or spontaneous creativity to run it. The little "examples" in the book have such flavor that I feel like I can't even compete. Even looking at the example combat Vincent Baker posted on his forums has some artsy black and white photos like it's from a photography exhibition. I just feel lke I am not worthy of running, and listening to spergs try to pretend to be Furiosa is not gonna be worth trying to run this game (even though it's explicitly about zero prep).
>>92553520By that definition OD&D is a storygame, even though mechanically it is only a dungeoncrawler. It was created for the express purpose of telling the stories of the hero units of Gary, Dave and Bob's chainmail armies.
>>92552040filtered
>>92543116I've found that "narrative" games don't usually make for better stories than other kinds of games. Just because you frame the experience from a "meta" viewpoint doesn't magically make the story better. "Oh, I'm a *director*! Let me spend my benny hoohah token to put something in the scene!"If I had to choose between PbtA and FATE, I would generally choose PbtA. PbtA games usually have the benefit of being tailored for a specific experience (sometimes to the point of being too restrictive). FATE is just bland and aimless due to being tailored to be totally generic.
>>92545426Because zoomers want to change the usage of words and treat their whims as actual definitions.By calling something that makes them feel good a game, they tell like-minded people (usually other zoomers or assorted Adderall zombies) it's a game an the brainrot spreads as "thing I think is fun" becomes the common use of "game", and feel a sense of superiority and belonging.What makes this so sad is it's understandable to want to have fun, to want to feel a sense of communion, to have the approval of others, and to be in control; these things are all great. None of these things make an activity that isn't a game into a game.I love royal purple. I love apples, and I love talking about apples with others who love apples. They taste great, have a variety of different levels of sweet and sour, and a number of great dishes can be made from them. These things don't mean that their skin radiates the frequency that registers as royal purple, and I would never assert that, regardless of my preferences. So why then would retards want to assert something that doesn't register as a game as being a game? An incapability or unwillingness to separate bias from fact, or a world view so twisted that they're stuck in both a sense of nihilism where nothing actually means anything and a simultaneous sense that everything they say is demonstrable fact.Such people are impossible to talk to, because in spite of their view that there's no such thing as objectivity, they treat their words as objective fact.
>>92556644All this drivel and you can't even attempt to give a definition.
>>92557400>you can't even attempt to give a definitionI wasn't asked for a definition, shit licker.
>>92545426Because calling it storyfagging will get me banned off every site other than this one
>>92546328> Primetime AdventuresThat sounds cool but can it run cartoon shenanigans?
>>92558259Yes, PA just regulates screen presence and pacing, basically anything goes, see for yourself (picrel)
>>92558289Neat, thanks for the pdf.
PBTA lacks statistical limitations on what is possible and probable.You don't fall down a pit and take damage despite the characters best efforts but because it's an exciting change in the 'narrative' you are co-creating.You can't lose until you say you lose, this makes it not a game.
>>92543116FATE is nice.I can easily whip up an adventure from the ground in less than an hour, I have plenty of free material to steal from, it's super generic, so I can easily use it for whatever idea floats my mind and I can explain it in less than 15 minutes to new players and go through character creation with them.I have yet to come across a good PbtA game that wasn't just a cheap cash grab. Tried to get into Dungeon Worlds to polay with a group at a public library but stopped halfway through. Beats even D&D in regards of bloated shallowness.
I've been running Avatar Legends for close to a year now, it's pretty good.
>>92558323games don't have to use a lose condition
>>92562487A game needs to have challenges.
>>92562487Does it need to have a win condition?
>>92565635It needs a win/lose condition like the resolution mechanics need a success/failure condition. They don't need a binary, but there do need to be stakes for the characters to strive against.
>>92555344It's built on the framework of a WarGame (chainmail).For the purposes of warband size bands of troops adventuring underground spaces. The assumed party size is 16.Gary Gygax wrote an article about Storyshitting not being how DnD was meant to be played in 1985.On every single metric you are ignorant and wrong.
>>92562487Games have lose conditions, if you don't care about the meaning of 'game' then call story games for "story activities".
>>92568243>WarGame>Party size of 16>Gary while he was coked out in LA trying to get D&D made into a movieAnd you call other people ignorant and wrong.Instead look at what he wrote about the game story going to mars in the one-on-one games with Ernie.
>>92543116I prefer games like WoD/CofD, Blue Rose, 7th Sea, The Strange and the likes who got a focus on narrative but have enough rules to play around and have fun rolling dices. That said, I played PbtA (the original) and found it fun. I GMed Monster of the Week for some friends and read Monsterhearts and a couple of other games. There are other games within the system I want to try out, but that's not something I'm eager to do. Not every PbtA is gonna be good and I want to GM other systems I find more interesting.I got no opinions on FATE. One friend want me and a group to try out, but never went to his sessions 'cause of schedule incompability.Overall, I don't enjoy contemporary TTRPG design mentality "Narrative-focused = Almost no rules or It's up to the GM". >>92553188That's something I hate on TSL. They are supposed to be for a specific niche, but at same they want to go for a broader audience. Why would you do that then?
>>92568738>That's something I hate on TSL. They are supposed to be for a specific niche, but at same they want to go for a broader audience. Why would you do that then?Still unironically want to play it cos the presentation alone makes it the perfect format to play an over-the-top Tumblr fantasy.
>>92566032>I'm correct if I completely reframe the question and then never answer itWhat exactly are you trying to achieve with this?
>>92546065The advice for running a game is the MC agenda and principles (play to explore the world, play to show off how cool the chracters are and be fan of their ideas but also give them hard choices and make them targets. and I´m probaly forgetting a few), which to me feel more like explicit formilazation of what you´re already doing if you´re GMing any game. Also, there is a list of types of of threats with their moves which is how the characteristically act on/ and off- screen around page 138 of AW
>>92571287To show off how smart I am to you, plebeians.
>>92545266Define a game in the context of tabletop roleplaying games dipshit
>>92545426>Then why are they so often called storygames?Because storygame, or storytelling game, is the macrocategory of games that involve multiple players working together to craft a story, and includes roleplaying games as a subcategory. This is just a behavior of tryhard grognards afraid of games they won't play in the first place being considered a part of their hobby. Exclusionary language, not actually indicative of anything beyond emotional response.All roleplaying games are storygames. Not all storygames are roleplaying games. But most modern games referred to as such are both. Exclusionary examples would be campfire tale rounds and tarot readings for entertainment purposes.
>>92578120Chess is a game. Choose your adventure novels aren't. Storygaming is closer to the latter than the former.
There is nothing in traditional tabletop games that isn't also present in PbtA games that makes it any more or less a game. The only difference is the rules provided for what part of the experience you want to abstract while playing the game.
All you storyfags are stupid as shit. Nontheless thanks for helping me put my thoughts in order about this topic.
>>92578120This is not true. Mechanically traditional RPGs are not designed to tell story's, they are designed to simulate a world. Story's do arise from playing them, just like fish stories arise from fishing.Storygames are designed mechanically with a ruleset that is intended to facilitate storytelling. The wgile goal of playing the game us to craft a collective story. The goal of a traditional roleplaying game is roleplaying.And as I stated before Roleplaying =/= Storytelling.
>>92580352>Mechanically traditional RPGs are not designed to tell story's, they are designed to simulate a worldTo simulate a world, and do what with it?
>>92581497Interact with it. Talk to npcs, go on quests, clear dungeons, collect loot ectSure afterwards I may have a story to tell about how I went to a dungeon and fought a dragon, but in the moment I'm roleplaying, not storytelling. Just like how when I go fishing I'm fishing and not telling a fishing story, the story comes later as a result of the experience, it's not the experience itself.
>>92581689Would you say you're creating something during the experience? Is there a word for what you're creating?
>>92581706not him, but are you suggesting that >the party went to this town, got the mcguffin, killed a troll, then got some goldis any notable kind of story? If so, then I have a drawer full of old instruction manuals I'm sure you'll be absolutely riveted by.
>>92543116Fate is superior imo, but its just a fudge hack so why not just make your own. I would make Burning Wheel my main game if it had an srd. I refuse to make my players read a 100+ page rule books in current year.
>>92589367>I refuse to make my players read a 100+ page rule books in current yearIntroduce them as you go, if you think players would ever bother to read a dedicated srd that isn't about a game they are spontaneously looking for then you're very naive.
>>92589397When I introduce a new game at the table I just explain the core resolution method and we start playing with pre made chars. It's nice to have a website with a sections menu that players can just browse with their phones if needed and go to the paragraph at question. I don't want them to read it all, just when something comes up I explain them the rule and they can go with a tablet/phone and read it along with my explanation, it really speeds up things and increases assimilation of the rules.
>>92543116PbtA is a framework to makes rpgs with right? Then why would you ever buy a PbtA game? Can't you just make it yourself relatively easy?>>92545426>>92546893Because "game" is used by people to refer to a wide variety of things that don't actually qualify as "games" in the original sense of the word. Now, toys are games, tic-tac-toe is a game, chess is a game, DnD is a game, roughhousing is a game, playing pretend is a game, peekaboo is a game, and what not. Storygames are called games in the wider sense of the word, not the original sense.That's my 2 cents. could be wrong.
>>92590014>PbtA is a framework to makes rpgs with right? Then why would you ever buy a PbtA game? Can't you just make it yourself relatively easy?You can, but also that means every day there's specific subgenres and niches getting covered by other people's content that's already made and ready for you to pick up and play. If I was going to run a My Hero Academia or Teen Titans style game about teenage superheroes, I'd much rather just pick up Masks than sit down and spend a few weeks coming up with mechanics for a game I'm going to play one time.
>>92581497You need to research Braunstein and Blackmoor bro
