Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to TSR-era D&D, derived systems, and compatible content.Broadly, OSR games encourage a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons as played in the game's first decade—less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching meta-plots and a greater emphasis on player agency.If you are new to the OSR, welcome! Ask us whatever you're curious about: we'll be happy to help you get started.>Troves, Resources, Blogs, etc:http://pastebin.com/9fzM6128>Need a starter dungeon? Here's a curated collection:https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/86342023/#q86358321>Previous thread:>>92520684>TQWhat unique monsters have you included in your dungeons? Gotta keep rulebook-readers on their toes, after all.
This has been missing for a few threads, so it's back now!
Ah, another day of non variable damage superiority. Feels good man
another TQ from the other thread that soon will be deleted.Magical research: weirdest spells or magical items you or your players have try to create. Post any magical research related stuff.
>>92546018What's the actual point of non variable damage? It seems to just guarantee killing low hp people more often
>player asks if his character with 3 Con can be morbidly obese>laughs are had around the table, but he survives as a backline wizard>a few months of hard overland travel later, another player asks why the fatass's Con hasn't improved, if he's losing weightHow should you respond to such feculant conjecture?
>>92546081its elegant, and makes using different weapons actually useful. I like knives being dangerous. And yes I think low HP chars should die more often
>>92546081to make fighting-men even weaker
>>92545989Bat headed beast men who communicate through echo location. Fill in for orcs. Made by the ancient shithead race, made them bats who can't fly on purpose as a cruel joke. Frog with two mouths from Fire on the Velvet Horizon. Amputation master blaster religious fanatics. Master has cut off legs and a spear, rides Blaster with cut off arms and a headbutt face mask. Roughly inspired by an old post war dystopia about amputation as goodness. Forget the name. This fucking bird thing but as a giant seagull. Seagulls are the worst. Basilisk but covered in candles that turns people into wax statues. Hollow crab clawed armour guarding a bridge covered in reliquaries, no one passes without prayer. >>92546107Heart and or autoimmune disease.Genetic defects. He's just sickly now.
>>92546107I wouldn't let him modify his Con that way because I'd be afraid of starting a precedent. Next thing you know the Fighter player is asking why he can't improve his Str by having his character do squats during the downtime between sessions
>>92545989>What unique monsters have you included in your dungeons?kobolds, but instead of being reptilian they're small furry doglike creatures I know it's pretty gonzo but what can I say, I'm an iconoclast
>>92546330
>>92546107Just laugh and ignore the question since it's antithetical to the game mechanics and this isn't 5e.
>>92546120>elegantBuzzword.GYG
>>92546081NTA, but variable weapon damage was a mistake, IMO. It leads to longswords being the only thing people carry. If weapons just do a d6 (maybe a bigger or smaller die for different classes) then weapon choice is up to your preference and situational advantages, rather than being decided by which one has the best damage die.
>>92546107Let him spend XP to lose weight, adjust Con by eye accordingly at milestones
>>92546914That's a bit progressive for this lot
>>92546811I'm fine with variable weapon damage because allow some optimization for fighter. The combination of best hit dice and longsword (dwarf and halfling can wield longsword as a two hand sword) plus shield makes the fighter more palatable, and this is good for me.
>>92546107Play Whitehack. Your attributes can go up there.
>>92546811No one will use two-handed weapons though, since they deal same damage but you can't carry a shield.
>>92546811>It leads to longswords being the only thing people carry.Only if the DM is a retard who doesn't use variable weapon space required. E.g. all other things being equal, a force of men-at-arms with shortswords will destroy a force with longswords every single time in a 10-foot corridor, but not in an open space.
>>92547445do you use the weaponVSac chart from ADND to determine the space required or you have your own homebrew?
>>92546070Nuner's Hand is a semi-intelligent blade with the special purpose of starting fires.INT 4, EGO 11+1 swordProduce fire 3/dayBurning hands 1/dayThe bearer of Nuner's Hand can create one campfire with a handful of flammable material. This has no combat application.
One thing I noticed lately is that places like stonehell have these massive piles of gold that are a logistical problem to carry outside of the dungeon. I personally don't really enjoy these problems, since they don't really add any enjoyment for me. A Friend said it probably comes from the conan the barbarian inspiration who would practically bathe in gold. How do you handle these, do you want treasure to be a significant logistical problem?
>>92546107Berlin the Chunky pissed off a powerful sorceror early in his training and was cursed to remain forever fat. Spell is non-revocable or removable without destroying him entirely.That or Pudgo eats way too many rations. Has an invisible levitation field susceptible to gravity that carts him around an inch off the ground. Lard Elemental thyroid condition.
>>92547765At times, getting hundreds of thousands of GP or huge chunks of treasure out of the dungeon adds to the risk/reward element. See that old pic of party pushing a wheelbarrow. Lots of old modules had golden couches and thrones with their value clearly stated, removing one of them from deep down makes for intersting progress.
>>92547765I dont recall a story by Howard in which conan swims in gold.Conan is not Scrooge McDuck.>a logistical problem to carry outside of the dungeonthat's a puzzle for players, how much and how to carry gold to safety. This makes overland travel more fun on the way back home.
Here's my mass combat rules for B/Xupdated for better compatibility.
>>92547765>do you want treasure to be a significant logistical problemYes. I prefer dungeon-crawling to have an expeditionary tone, like a team of old-school mountain climbers or arctic explorers, and transporting heavy stuff is a part of that. I also enjoy thinking like calculating how much water you need for a trip across the desert and stuff like that. It's not a good fit for all types of adventures though, so I will conclude with an annoyingly non-committal "it depends".
>>92547765I don't, and I thought I might have been the only one. I will use gold for XP until I die, but the logistics of it have always been not appealing to me (outside of the occasional monstrous copper hoard that's fun, of course). But there's ways around it if you're determined.
>>92548567yeah, i always thought it was the fun of the game
>>92547493You can, but you shouldn't need to, it's just about common sense. Thrusting weapons such as shortswords and spears: 3 men in a 10 foot corridor. Swinging weapons like maces, axes, and longswords: 2 men in a 10 foot corridor. Huge swinging weapons such as the 2H sword: One in a 10 foot corridor.
>>92549236common sense is sometimes what players lacking. BTW good advice, tks
>>92546811>rather than being decided by which one has the best damage dieYou should use weapons because they sound cool and it's what your character would be using already, not because of their damage die.
>>92546330This but unironically, I'm such a sucker for kobolds. I hate freakshit races, people playing as stupid monsters and stuff. But every campaign of mine includes friendly kobolds, those niggas are so fucking cute.
>>92549777You should use weapons depending on your role and on the situations that you might face.
:-)
>>92549832No. I'm showing up with whatever my character would use, not whatever is most effective.If my character has an 5 int then he's not going to realise that he needs a +1 magical weapon to hit the ghost, he's going to keep trying to whack it with the wooden stick. Deal with it, minmaxer.
Should I let PCs work during the week of downtime between dungeon delves? Maybe halve healing rate if they do? I figured if inn stay is 2 sp per day then earning 1 sp per day is fine. In 1 week shifts. Should I allow them XP from it if it's silver standard? I also have percent chance of finding work for a week by settlement.
>>92546018>>92546811Without variable weapon damage, class balance is an issue, unless you do something else to compensate. Starting magic-users, though frailer, are as effective as fighters, and more importantly, so are clerics, halflings and dwarves. And while I understand not wanting to tie everybody down to swords, in a match-up between a sword and a dagger, I really want to be the guy with the sword. What I don't like is swords being being better than spears, axes, and such. That's boring, and I'd rather people have a choice of effective weapons. So I tend to boost those lesser weapons to put them on the same level as swords.
Why is Arden Vul praised from a quality point of view? I like it as the odd object that it is, but when reading through any given section there's nothing that's quite... inspired in a way that a modern edited caves of chaos couldn't be. Even its formatting leaves a bit to be desired. If you're writing out a huge work that's too big to be contained in the mind... the organization should be doing a lot more heavy lifting than it is.
>>92550491>class balance is an issueNot if you give different damage dies to different classes. I also give two-handed weapons (including dual wield) a bump up one die size vs smaller weapons to partially offset forgoing a shield.
>>92550237No, what? You proved my point. As I said>depending on your roleso, if your role is the village idiot your interpretation is totally fine.
>>92550540>Why is Arden Vul praised from a quality point of view?Hard to say without knowing who is praising it. I haven't heard much love for it 'round these parts.
>>92550563Then this is a moot point because your role is ultimately going to be informed by whatever you find cool.
>>92550491If you don’t use variable weapon damage then you need to have a weapons vs armor table. That also incentivizes fighters to use their main class feature: the ability to use all weapons.
>>92551124I thought good THAC0 was their main class feature. But otherwise, you're probably right.
>>92550436>Should I let PCs work during the week of downtime between dungeon delves?No.>Should I allow them XP from it if it's silver standard?Absolutely not.>silver standardWhy are you gay?
>>92550436Have each player roll a d6 between adventures when they are broke.1 - Homeless, con save or start with a disease2-4 - Poor house, start next session with 1d4 hp lost.5 - worked to live.6 - Got paid, get 2d4 silver>>92551325Sometimes players are so bad they will starve to death in downtime.Better to just give them an easy out.
>>92550436>>92551417Oh yeah, obviously no XP for nearly starving to death in a town.
Haha, good argument. However.
>>92550436Yes. There should literally never be a situation where a PC is hungry enough to starve to death while not actively being controlled by a player. They don't suddenly become retarded automatons who can't use their skills once they stop being controlled.
>>92551417>>92551431How would a PC starve to death in a town during downtime? Assuming they have money of course.
>>92551572Not that anon. I also want to point out that in the real medieval period, most people were self-sufficient enough to fish to feed themselves, at least. Fishing for survival should be part of what a typical adventurer should be considered capable of doing. Perhaps require a 2 in 6 roll modified by Wisdom to acquire enough food for themselves to eat per day. if the DM feels a roll is necessary. This mirrors opening doors on a 2 in 6 modified by Strength in the regular B/X rules.
>>92551325In AD&D it is. Their to-hit isn’t much better than the other classes.
>>92547297why not just let 2handers have a 1d6+1. solved.
>>92546914>Let him spend XP to lose weight, adjust Con by eye accordingly at milestonesHonestly? Pretty based.>You want to buy more power? Sure. But it'll cost you.
>>92550436>Should I let PCs work during the week of downtime between dungeon delves?Honestly? I thought it was kind of presumed?Check ACKS, which covers it rather nicely and even gives you wage rates.
New Jeffro post on Braunstein and O/AD&D.https://jeffro.wordpress.com/2024/04/19/braunstein-play-is-fundamental-to-dd/
>>92551585>How would a PC starve to death in a town during downtime?>Assuming they have money of course.Some players are so very bad they frequently retreat with no treasure.>>92551417Something like this D6 roll makes their survival in such situations trivial to adjudicate. As stated, they are bad.
>>92551762>You wouldn’t have this option if it wasn’t for some guy that could see that Braunstein was the fundamental element of D&D gameplay.>That guy was me.What a self congratulating faggot
>>92546558Nonsense. There wouldn't be 500 pages of rules if the game mechanics weren't an important part of play. If you don't understand how the rules inform the gameplay, you haven't thought very long about why the rules are written the way they are. Simply compare them to any new school RPG system and it is obvious how the game mechanics are fundamental in the spirit and design of how to play the game.
>>92551909It's partly kayfabe and party arrogance, but arrogance is permissible when you're onto something, in my opinion. Besides, in a space dominated by smelly nerds and soiboi tr00ns, that's kind of a breath of fresh air.
>>92546914>ability score increases with levels>milestonesWhat the fuck are you doing here?
>>92545989How would a OSR game without classes and levels?
>>92552323>How would a OSR game [be?] without classes and levels?It wouldn't be OSR, tourist. Read the OP for what OSR is.
>>92552323That would be a completely different type of game. Maybe it would be good, maybe it would be bad, but it wouldn't be OSR.
>>92552387>When did the Manual of Gainful Exercise first app[ear in D&D anyway?It's certainly already in the DMG, but that's the one for Strength, Manual of Bodily Health is what you have in mind. Magical research to make a magic item that changes an Ability Score sounds about appropriate, player characters are already at the top of their physical capabilities when they start adventuring, since they're already able to march at the speed and distances of a trained Roman legionnaire. No amount of mundane exercise should increase ability scores for a PC.
When doing a hex crawl, how much information do you feed your players about places/items/etc in a hex? Lets say there's a dungeon in the hex, but it's relatively hidden. Would you feed the party a clue just for enter the hex or would they have to tell you specifically search the hex or perform some action in order to pick up the trail that leads them to the dungeon, etc.?
B/X characters are very fragile at low levels, and become incredibly powerful at the upper end of the middle levels. This is by design, and it's fine.However, I have been thinking of fiddling around a bit with that formula to make low level characters less squishy, and make higher level characters more squishy. My idea is this:>At level 1, characters have HP equal to their Constitution scores, with no modifiers.>At each level after 1st up through 9th, they gain 1 HP plus their Constitution modifiers.>At 10th level and above, they gain 1 HP with no modifier.This idea is almost certainly not anything new, and I even think I have seen things a bit similar to this in /osrg/ before. What are your thoughts on this alternative system for HP?The reason I am considering experimenting with this change is that I find I enjoy D&D the most at or below 7th level.
>>92552489It depends on the size of the hex. If it's 100 yards, I'd tell them everything that isn't hidden. If it's 6 miles, I'd tell them nothing except the terrain and very obvious features such as a tower on top of a hill.
>>92552552>make low level characters less squishyWhy.>make higher level characters more squishyWhy.
>>92552552I'd argue characters are squishy enough against appropriately chosen monsters at all levels.As for level 1 change, personally I think the whole idea of adventurers being quite fragile at level 1 is a core part of the game. The meta-narrative of a typical campaign is as much about the would-be heroes that perished along the way as the ones who survived and reached greatness. I also *love* the tension of low level dungeon crawls because you know that one wrong move could be the death of your character. It forces you to play smarter. I also don't mind dying and rerolling a new character. To me making characters is fun, so it doesn't bother me much.I just finished a dungeon with a party of two: a Magic-User (4hp; me) and a thief (4hp). We had two retainers: thief (2hp), and a NH (4 hp) in the party. Needless to say, we did everything in our power to avoid combat and solve puzzles without triggering any negative effects. Ultimately, one retainer died due to poison, but everyone else survived thanks to careful and thoughtful play. I thought it was a blast.
>>92552552>I find I enjoy D&D the most at or below 7th levelThen it's not D&D you enjoy, really. D&D is about the progression of characters from zeroes to heroes to lords. If you only like playing a the hero level it's fine, but I won't be D&D anymore. It'll be more something like 5e (which isn't D&D).
>>92552599Sorry I meant to mention these are typical 6-8 mile hexes for overland travel.
>>92546107He eats too fucking much on the road, obviously. If the journey was "hard" because of poor hunting rolls etc., tell them they got better results but fatty gobbled way more than his share before anybody could stop him, and so there's not enough left for everybody else. If you have to, invent some obeast penalties on the spot.
>>92552639A 6 mile hex is about the size of a city of 3 million people. They won't find anything that hasn't got a road and a sign pointing to it, and even in that case they'd specifically have to go down that road.Now of course they might stumble upon stuff, which is what the "in lair %" entry is for.
>>92552633>It'll be more something like 5e (which isn't D&D).So, low level campaigns are more like a game where everyone is a superhero from level 1?>>92552611Because I want to try it that way. I thought it might make higher level play more appealing to me when the high level PCs are less god-killing juggernauts.
>>92552650>obeast
>>92552633But you don't get to decide if the players decide to becoming landed lords, raise armies, hire mercenaries, etc. Perhaps they reject the offer of nobility because the prefer the solitary, adventuring lifestyle. Your conception of what the players "should" do has no bearing on what D&D is.
>>92552659So the concern then is lets say I give the players a rumor about a dungeon and they have good directions, but the dungeon is ultimately hidden (they know it is hidden).Even if they arrive in the correct hex, how do I get them to the hidden dungeon without just saying "oh yeah you found the dungeon" which defeats the whole idea that it was hidden?
>>92552552Main issue with this is that it makes constitution massively important because it has so much greater influence on total HP.
>>92552633>5e (which isn't D&D)It is though. You can say it's not good (and I would agree), or that it's playstyle is significantly different from what D&D was originally (and anyone would agree), but saying it isn't D&D is just dishonest language games.
>>92552552I was considering something like this also, but it would be coupled with separating HP into meat points (which injure you significantly and take a significant amount of time to recover) and vigor (which just exhausts and batters you). My main reason for this is because HP is one of the only dissociated mechanics in old-school D&D, compared to new-school where they add more (4th edition and Pathfinder in particular).
>>92552778Constitution was already massively important. I don't agree that this change makes it so important that it's unbalanced or game braking, which I think is what you mean. That said, thank you for your response.To be clear, this faggot >>92552806is not me, the guy that posted this >>92552552He's one of those shitposters that got blown out over being told their preferred game isn't OSR when the effort to change the OP was made.
>>92552859>To be clear, this faggot >>92552806 (You) is not me, the guy that posted this >>92552552 He's one of those shitposters that got blown out over being told their preferred game isn't OSR when the effort to change the OP was made.I've never said 5th edition was OSR. That's retarded.
>>92552887>I've never said 5th edition was OSR. That's retarded.I didn't say you did. I'm saying you and people like you have been using 5e, glog, and other off-topic shit to fuck up the thread since the OP change effort was made.
>>92552907I wasn't the one who brought 5th edition up dude.
>>92552489I use a system where all hex features are marked as overt or hidden, and then rules for finding hidden features.Of course, that's just the mechanics side. Your world should be a living one, and with that comes features that have wider effects on the world, which are detectable, or lasting legacies, which can be learned about or heard of independently ("oh, you go looking for rumours? They say the ruins of the last marcher lord's summer villa lies in the hills to the north, a place where he would go to escape the city's heat in the summertime)".
>>92552773Anytime they pass through a hex you can roll to see if they stumble upon a hidden feature. And allow them to spend time searching the hex to get another roll. If they succeed and they've found everything, you can tell them that they're now certain they've found everything of interest in this region.
>>92552836>dissociated mechanicsAh, it's "game design enthusiast" hour again!
>>92552907Yeah-yeah, you're the one true OSR fan and too good for this sinful board. No one else is as hardcore as you are and anyone that takes inspiration from anywhere else is doing it exclusively to tip your golden calf.
>>92552929Maybe I'm missing something, I just read through all of the OSE rules and didn't find anything specific about finding hidden features. Is that perhaps a thing in AD&D?
>>92552806D&D is the game that Gary & Dave made.D&D™ is a brand name that can be bought, sold, applied, and misapplied.D&D ≠ D&D™.
>>92553129It's not in any official system. It's homebrew:https://osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com/2020/05/making-wilderness-play-meaningful-system.html
>>92552489A 6 miles hex is half of the skyrim map, or around that, so unless it's clearly visible they can't find it unless the search for it.
>>92553266Skyrim is misleading because distances are compressed, but it's still a huge area.
ACKS and LotFP both have a skill system, do they not? 1e also had non-weapon proficiencies in the Wilderness Survival Guide and Dungeoneer's Survival Guide.I guess my question comes down to "when does a skill/proficiency system mean a game isn't OSR anymore?"
>>92552773>how do I get them to the hidden dungeonMake up your mind: Do you want the dungeon to be hidden, or do you want to get them to it? If it's hidden there's a chance they'll never find it, are you okay with that possibility?
>>92552489Rumors1d4 for each character at the start of the campaign.1 rumor for the entire party when they go back to town.
>>92553387When you play ACKS you're playing 3E not OSR
>>92553152Just stop.
>>92552806>It is though.Hasbro has bought the rights to cal whatever they want "D&D". They can make a MyMiniPony-themed Monopoly and call it "D&D". Doesn't mean it would be D&D. And no, as far as I am concerned, 5e "D&D" isn't D&D, it's a different game legally branded as such because of fucked-up trademark and copyright laws.
>>92552806The D&D that can be bought is not the true D&D.Empy empty empty, completely empty the true D&D is.Because it has no shape it cannot be contained or trapped, because it has no limitation it cannot be written or spoken about, the true D&D exists eternal.
>>92552836>dissociated mechanics>new-school>4th edition>PathfinderYou can fuck right off.
>>92553449>Hasbro has bought the rights to cal whatever they want "D&D". They can make a MyMiniPony-themed Monopoly and call it "D&D". Doesn't mean it would be D&D.That's true. The reason it's D&D is because people call it that. In fact the majority of people today probably think of D&D 5e when they think of D&D.
>>92553484Are 4th edition and Pathfinder not new-school?
>>92553266>A 6 miles hex is half of the skyrim mapYou bring a video game to say how big a six mile hex is? Haven't you ever been out of your fucking room?
OS4ER when
>>92553387>1e also had non-weapon proficiencies in the Wilderness Survival Guide and Dungeoneer's Survival Guide.WSG and DSG are part of the shit period of AD&D, well after the "first decade" that this thread is about, when Gygax had left TSR and the RPG culture was going into the shit that eventually led to "AD&D" 2e. > guess my question comes down to "when does a skill/proficiency system mean a game isn't OSR anymore?"A system of skills selectable by the player to customise the character instantly makes the game not OSR anymore.
>>92553486>A million lemmings can't be wrong.
>>92551124Armor tables are garbage though. They're overly complicated, poorly constructed, and don't make any sense when not dealing with strict armor types (as will be the case for most monsters).
>>92550555If you want to have a damage-by-class system with extra damage for two-handed weapons (better of two rolls, +1 die level, etc.) and reduced damage for at least very light weapons like daggers, I'm cool with that. But I feel like that's kind of a hybrid system.
>>92551635Their to-hit progression is more superior to other class in AD&D than in Basic. But they also gain multiple attacks, which is a pretty big deal.
>>92551668And now everybody is stocking up on small, inexpensive, un-encumbering, throwable daggers, since it's pointless to prefer a sword. Unless you have armor tables, of course, but in that case, the cure is much worse than the disease (if, indeed, you consider variable weapon damage a disease).
The "cure" for variable weapon damage and fighter all in one >all classes besides fighter deal 1d6 for all 1h weapons (besides dagger and club) and 1d8 for all 2h weapons>fighter deals 1d8 for all 1h weapons (besides dagger and club) and 1d10 for all 2h weapons Simple as Fighter is better at fighting and everyone isn't using longswords for maximum 1h weapon damage
>>92553623>Unless you have armor tables, of course, but in that case, the cure is much worse than the disease (if, indeed, you consider variable weapon damage a disease).Wrong. Chainmail MTM weapon vs. AC and fixed damage die is the GOAT combat system.
>>92552836HP is not a dissociated mechanic.
>>92553821>HP is not a dissociated mechanic.NAYRT, but I guess it depends on your definition of dissociated. I don't think it's completely detached, like XP for GP, but it's at least abstracted, and not rigidly connected to any one tangible thing. So I get where anon was coming from.
>>92553894"Dissociated mechanics" is a meme. Worse, I don't think it was ever anything more than a meme used to provide a seemingly-plausible rationale for "I don't like this."
>>92553802>Chainmail MTM weapon vs. AC and fixed damage die is the GOAT combat system.This one?Shields and leather armor separately provide zero protection vs. maces, battle axes, flails, polearms, halberds, two-handed swords, mounted lances and pikes (and for battle axes, flails, two-handed swords, mounted lances and pikes, even combined leather and shields do absolutely nothing). And is there something I'm not understanding here? Why is it easier to hurt a person in chainmail than an unarmored person when you're using a flail, halberd, or two-handed sword? And chainmail and a shield combined do nothing vs. maces, flails and pikes, while actually making you more vulnerable vs. battle axes, halberds and two-handed swords. What the literal fuck?
>>92553894HP aren't even close to being a dissociated mechanic. They're abstract, but so are all mechanics in all games, because at the end of the day, you never roll dice to determine the outcome of a fight in real life.>>92554002An associated mechanic is one which has a connection to the game world. A dissociated mechanic is one which is disconnected from the game world.
>>92554002>"Dissociated mechanics" is a meme.It's often used in a meme-y way, but I do think there's some validity to trying to minimize the ways in which the game turns on meta-things unrelated to in-universe concerns. That doesn't mean that all dissociated mechanics are bad, just that you want to keep an eye on them.
>>92554035>This one?That's the one, baby.>Shields and leather armor separately provide zero protection vs. maces, battle axes, flails, polearms, halberds, two-handed swords, mounted lances and pikes (and for battle axes, flails, two-handed swords, mounted lances and pikes, even combined leather and shields do absolutely nothing)Correct. Shitty armor is feeble and useless against armor-busting weapons.>Why is it easier to hurt a person in chainmail than an unarmored person when you're using a flail, halberd, or two-handed sword? And chainmail and a shield combined do nothing vs. maces, flails and pikes, while actually making you more vulnerable vs. battle axes, halberds and two-handed swords. What the literal fuck?The idea – we can argue about how realistic this actually is – is that these armors provide no meaningful protection against these weapons, BUT they weigh you down enough to fuck your dodging ability compared to someone in lighter or no armor, so your chance of being injured actually goes up.
>>92554142If anything, I now have less respect for weapon-vs-armor tables, because that's all kinds of stupid. A chainmail-and-shield combo actually making you easier to hurt with a battle axe, halberd, or two-handed sword is just plain retarded. And plate armor makes you easier to hurt with a mace or flail?
>>92554035>>92554142To stick my nose in where it doesn't belong, I find these tables to be worse than useless, because they both slow down play and try to make D&D combat something it is shit at being, meaning simulationist.
>>92553578>how do make [thing] work>use x>but x sucks!Suffer.I never said you had to use Gary’s fucked up table. I said to use a table. Make one that isn’t fucked up.
>>92553894Yeah, I'm not 100% sure if dissociated is the correct term, but it seems like HP is abstracted so far that it's no longer something that makes sense in relation to the game world, particularly when it has more concrete interactions like taking a healing potion, or fall damage, and you can only make sense of what happened retroactively.
I keep dyingI have two more back up characters than everyone else at the tablesend help
>>92554290What's your class, role in the marching order, HP and equipment?
>>92554290Clearly your DM is just a chud bullying you for your alternative sexual preferences and gender identity disorder.
>>925532661 mile hex supremacy.
>>92554277I guess while I can see how certain aspects could be improved, I'm not sure how useful even a "good" version would be.
>>92553438Make me, corpo.
>>92554290Use sword, board and chainmail. Never move alone, always keep at least one character next you so damage may be divided amongst the group. Put your retainers/backup characters behind the front line with reach weapons to attack from second rank. Use doorways as choke points to funnel groups of enemies down and reduce reduce their effectiveness.Bring some oil to throw or pour out on the floor and always keep at least one extra torch burning to light the oil quickly.Know when to run. The evasion mechanics can be more forgiving if you drop coins or food to distract the pursuing monsters.
>>92554265Heavy armor slows you down and thus makes you more likely to get hit. In principle you could be better off without it against some weapons.
>>92554512Against lightsabers, maybe, but I don't think that types of armor useful enough to become widespread are likely to be worse than useless against conventional hand-to-hand weapons.
>>92554512So you're not only a pathfinderfag and a nogames, but also super-obese with no combat sports or martial arts experience.
>>92554324*1 mile square superiority
>>92554551>>92554584A real world example:https://www.thoughtco.com/armor-and-weapons-of-spanish-conquistadors-2136508#:~:text=Some%20even%20abandoned%20metal%20armor,armor%20worn%20by%20Aztec%20warriors.
>>92554778An example of what exactly?
>>92554833Of fat people who play pathfinder. Why else would they not use the best armor, plate, if they had it?
>>92554778So you actually are a superobese nogames. The conquistadors not *needing* heavy armour against the savages allowed them to use lighter armour, travel more quickly and manoeuvre better on the field (less encumbrance, higher movement rate). Doesn't mean that they were being hit more easily while in heavy armour, just that it was useless because the subhumans fought with fucking clubs while they were riding them down with horses, and lances and finishing them off with swords.So much for your "all weapons deal the same damage" argument, by the way.
>>92553417I've thought about that too. Do you have any thoughts on when the rumors are exhausted?Like how long can the party continue to search for rumors before they get no more helpful information (or hear the same thing)? I'm imagining a scenario where the party wants to be extra prepared, so they spend a whole day or days just talking to everyone in town gathering as much information as they can. If all they do is gather info, do you still just roll on the rumor table, do you provide them with one or more pieces of critical information, or do you just tell them that no additional useful information was found without even rolling?Obviously scenarios are different, but lets assume in this case there is actual information to be found by talking to people in town.
>>92554265I’m not going to argue that the AD&D weapon vs armor tables are good, because they are in fact fucked, but you might be missing the point. Having certain weapons be more effective against certain armors doesn’t represent the weapon getting better. It represents the armor not protecting as well. Maces and flails are about impact so it makes sense that plate mail, which get’s a lot of it’s protective value from coverage, might not be as effective against a weapon that just needs to hit your body and not necessarily hit a vulnerable area.On the other hand having the weapons target AC value is dumber than shit because AC values don’t represent a specific physical quality. By that I mean you could have an AC5 by means of scale mail and a shield or chainmail and no shield. It’s two very different things. And the argument that shields aren’t supposed to be applied is also horseshit because AC9 and AC2 can only be achieved with a shield.So yeah, the chart is fucked, but not for the reasons you seem to think.
Is it something that I'm curious on looking at the BECMI rules simply for the dumb reason that it was used for the Lodoss Replays?
>>92546746fuck off nogames nigger ive been here way before this general and dming while you were still playing 3.5. i like quick mechanics that let combat exploration and resource managment go along quickly enough to enjoy the three in good amounts during a session, and non variable (well, sorta,i do discriminate with roll twice pick high for 2h and heavy crossbows) does just that
>>92553506Not anymore>>92553528When you make it
>>92553506Anything that came out after WotC bought TSR is new school. Plain and simple.
>>92555032>Maces and flails are about impact so it makes sense that plate mail, which get’s a lot of it’s protective value from coverage, might not be as effective against a weapon that just needs to hit your body and not necessarily hit a vulnerable area.I understand the idea of the armor being less effective against certain weapons. My issue is that a mace has to roll an 8 or over vs. an unarmored person, but only a 7 or over vs. somebody in plate armor (and for a flail, it's 7 and 6). So it's not just that the armor doesn't protect as well against that type of weapon, it's that it's literally worse than useless.
>>92555032>>92555478But I agree about the thing about having weapon effects based on a particular AC being stupid, since there are different ways to get the same AC. I actually referenced that in passing somewhere up the thread.
How would one go about running Pokemon in an OSR game?
>>92555551the pokemon world's distant past where they are just monsters and not pocket monsters, pokemon balls are not real yet, and people had to fight them with swords and spears and gyarados could flatten coastal settlements and kabutops stalked the benighted underworld and geodude attacks in mines wiped out scores of laborers
>>92555007>Like how long can the party continue to search for rumors before they get no more helpful information (or hear the same thing)?time is a resource, and there is a cost to wasting it. They can spend all their time/money trying to ferret out rumours, but at some point they will have to actually go and *do* something.
>>92555590Okay, I've got all that ready and that's the sort of world I'll run, but I do want my players to be able to train pokemon.How would I go about doing that in a way that /osrg/ would approve of?
>>92555551>How would one go about running Pokemon in an OSR game?Crafting a pokeball requires a diamond worth at least 500gp. Change nothing else; you're god to go.
>>92555602>How would I go about doing that in a way that /osrg/ would approve of?there are plenty of rules for loyalty and morale; use them.
>>92555595I guess my concern is I'm trying to strike a balance between that and rewarding the party for actually trying to use their brain and uncover valuable information. I don't want to disincentivize them from trying to gather information, but I'm obviously not going to reveal everything about what they are searching for. I'm not quite sure where the game balance lies in that and there really isn't much guidance I've found from people more experienced (or in the rulebooks) about how to handle that.The other concern is how much is the game balance upset by handing out too much information. If the players figure out that all they need to do is stick around in town one extra day to gain some sort of valuable info, then there is little incentive not to unless there is a larger time pressure. I'd like a system that is somewhat random so there isn't a guaranteed chance of success, but also the players might want to legitimately take the risk of expending resources to gain additional information.
>>92555602if they get a very good reaction roll from a creature of less than their HD (or their HD or less), there is an opportunity to tame them if they can coax it into a favorable situationfeeding it regularly for like a week or so should do. then give it a second reaction roll with average result being that it's tamed, below-average being it just fucking off, and low results being it gets pissed and attacksfuck pokeballs in my opinion
>>92555551New class: Monster TamerCan only wear light armor, cannot use weapons. HD and AB same as thiefUpon defeating (but not slaying) a monster with HD equal or lower than their own level, they may attempt a Wisdom check. If successful, they may "capture" the defeated monster.They may only own a number of monsters equal to half their class level, rounded down.They may only summon each individual monster a number of times equal to their level per day, and the monster can remain active during each of these summons for one encounter.Monsters gain exp individually based on their number of uses but their level may never exceed their tamerIn order to capture and store monsters you must craft a capsule device out of materials equal to the cost of a scroll of first level
>>92555654>the game balancefalse idolAim for verisimilitude instead of trying to balance the world. If they are spending time talking in town, then some other party is acting on clues they overheard. Early bird gets the worm and all that. Now, this might mean that the other party gets fucked on a trap ahead of your players, that part is up to you (or dice it out, I guess).
>>92553322seriously. there is too much shit in a 6 mile hex. That could be what, 1-4 monster lairs, a settlement, a 2-4 level dungeon, and one or two interesting landmarks. You can seriously get 2 months or more out of a single 6 mile hex. Can anyone convince me otherwise? I guess I would use a 6 mile hex setup for an entire kingdom map, but thats still not really relevant for a while.
>>92555551treat it more like dragon quest monsters or something where most are vicious but you might befriend a few special ones. Read PTU game of throhs supplement for some ideas. There is a dungeon fantasy section. I run a lot of PTU on the side, pokemon games dont work with more than 3 players absolutely max.
>>92555007>>92555654I am of the opinion that "rolling for more information" should generally be discouraged. Yes rumor tables are fun but I don't think they should be a mechanic that a party can exploit. I would just give them some special information, but I also don't think spending all day in town talking to people is something to incentivize or reward, but maybe that's because I just imagine the players saying "okay we do that".>>92552489>Would you feed the party a clue just for enter the hexyes, tell them what they see, they say what they do>would they have to tell you specifically search the hexno>perform some action in order to pick up the trailmaybe but regular exploration stuff like "we follow the river" "we climb the giant tree" or whatever. not too different from opening doors or messing with statues and stuff in a dungeon. if you want them to search something specific you have to tell them the specific thing is there. I err on the side of simply telling my players stuff because they can't see the world.
I use six mile hexes because that way the party moves like 3 or 4 a day and not a dozen or moreit also means I CAN stuff a ton of shit into one hex without it being very strange
I like how dolmenwood does it for the most part. there's stuff in hexes that you get for free. descriptions of the areas and major landmarks. and then there's stuff that you find automatically if you spend double time scouring the hex
>>92555711Just means you have room to plop down lairs and villages and things that came up on a random table when the PCs are passing through the hex. Empty space on the wilderness map is a boon, not a bane.
>>92554265I always wondered if I was the only person who didn't like the Man-to-Man part of Chainmail. Three pages of lazily-researched slop (flails are the best weapon ever made? Really?), artlessly crammed in between two much better games. The matrix is a good idea but not very well executed as you've noticed, further weighed down by one of the most poorly explained attack sequences I've ever seen in a wargame.I guess it's like the first skirmish wargame ever made so maybe I should give it some leeway? I mean I still don't like it but it's an important part of wargaming history for that reason.Funny thing is if you hear somebody talk about "OD&D with Chainmail" 9 times out of 10 they're exclusively using the m2m rules and not the Mass Combat or Fantasy mechanics - both of which make more sense, actually interface with the D&D rules way better, and bring something to the table that you don't get from the d20 attack system.
>>92552948If you've ever made your own dungeon, house rule or scenario, you're a game designer.
>>92552836>because HP is one of the only dissociated mechanics in old-school D&D, compared to new-school where they add more (4th edition and Pathfinder in particular)The Alexandrian and its consequences have been a disaster for the OSR.
>>92555551There a blog post by some guy who stats out all the Pokémon from Red & Blue to X & Y, initially for S&W but that’s fixable with one page in its options section.Pity the guy admitted to eyeballing some of the numbers. I would have liked to see it continued.
>>92547963let me know if anyone tests this out.This is the second version after I've received criticism from other anons regarding compatibility.
>>92555007Critical info is storyshit territory.Information is equally valuable.50% +- of rumors should be false.One rumor per town visit is fine, npcs can have rumors as ‘rewards’.
>>92555373>Is it something that I'm curious on looking at the BECMI rules simply for the dumb reason that it was used for the Lodoss Replays?Read this:>>92392554
>>92556274He got BTFO and forced to grovel by the troons he worships, so at least there's some schadenfreude
>>92555463>Anything that came out after GYGAX LEFT TSR is new school.Fixed that for you.
>>92555654>stick around in town one extra day to gain some sort of valuable infoSince when are rumours "valuable info", Anon? A good chunk of them are half truths or outright bollocks.
>>92556274How is wannabeGameDesignerPathfinderFag the fault of The Alexfaggian? Asking genuinely.
>>92557120The false rumors are sometimes the most fun though. My players were terrified there were mind flayers in the dungeon because the crazy drunk in the tavern told them about tentacle monsters that eat your brains.
>>92557149I think he means where The Alexfaggian endorsed the idea of "dissociated mechanics" being automatically bad:https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1545/roleplaying-games/dissociated-mechanic
>>92557256Jesus Christ, good thing I never followed that blog. I swear the OSR is the worst thing to ever befell the OSR.
>>92556151Same here. Gygax was such an HEMAtryharder.What's interesting about flail is that the "fantasy" depiction (the chained ball) is probably an historical faux. The real flail was derived by a threshing agricultural tool.
>>92557081Good to know that BECMI has it's flaws, ought to be an interesting read at least.I'ld also mention SWRPG, but I'm uncertain ye lot might find interest. Even though it partially spawned from said BECMI replays.
>>92557472>I'ld also mention SWRPG, but I'm uncertain ye lot might find interest.Yeah, no, wrong general.
In B/X, a Vampire Bat turns its victims into Vampires. That has never seemed a good idea from the world-building point of view, if a mere Vampire Bat with 2HD can make Vampires, the world would be overrun very quickly.What other undead should a Vampire Bat create? It seems to me that something like Zombies or Ghouls might be perfectly adequate and more than enough to create a crisis in a town.
Is there a good reason for why the break down doors check is 2-in-6 on average / by default, while all other checks are 1-in-6 by default?
>>92557905Yes, the reason is Gary Gygax wasn't a nogames.
>>92557709>Any victim who dies from having his or her blood drained by a giant vampire bat must save vs. Spells or become an undead creature 24 hours after death. (If D&D EXPERT rules are used this may be a vampire.)>or become an undead creature >this may be a vampire >may be It's left up to the DM to decide but you're right to question allowing it as vampires are extremely powerful. I rolled a vampire on the encounter tables one session, luckily he rolled "friendly" on the reaction table so he just had a brief conversation with the party. I decided he had already fed recently and didn't want to bother fighting a party that cleary had some magic weapons that could harm him but he didn't reveal this to the party. He just tried to scare them for his own amusement and told them he would devour one of them soon. To answer your question I would probably choose zombie as the undead the character would turn to since it's relative to the level of decomposition (as a opposed to turning into a spooky scary skeleton in just 4 days of being dead)
>>92557905Using brute strength is easier than finding secret doors.Makes sense to me
>>92557905Depending on the dungeon / system you even add your strength modifier to that roll.
>>92547903>>92547955What is the interesting puzzle part of this? Taking out the most coinage and gems (The vast majority of treasure) is simply a matter of calculating their value per weight. You carry as much value in the smallest amount of weight as possible before heavy encumbrance penalties. Discarding copper coins and taking in silver/gold when possible is obvious.This doesn't really change when adding wheelbarrows, carts or wagons, it only adds more calculations (How much does it cost to buy this many carts, how much for a bunch of donkeys and retainers to drive the wagon plus their food, recalculate movement speed and treasure allocation, etc). This seems excessive for what is a single decision point.A lot of the decisions to be made also lack proper information on the end of the players, making their choices less meaningful. For example unidentified gems or other valuable items might turn out to be a worthless colorful glass or pretty paintings and vases turn out to be worth much less than their weight in silver coins. This isn't a puzzle unless they can ascertain a ballpark value of what they find, it's just gambling.Not only that but the GM can pull a lot of tricks here. If they leave gold in the now empty cavern will it stay there? In the time it takes to head to civilization and back will it all be gone or new monsters have taken over, even when going as fast as possible? What if they bury it outside nearby, or lock it in a secret room? Will a band of 6d10 bandits ambush them along the road because someone hiring a bunch of wagons caught their attention?All of these things would be interesting if the player had the proper information to make choices on, but the rules leave it up to GM fiat or negate the players valuable information, usually feeling like the GM is *arbitrarily* punishing the players for pulling out such a huge hoard or for being physically unable to carry out the treasure put in the dungeon before it needs to be 'reclaimed' again.
>>92546306>Next thing you know the Fighter player is asking why he can't improve his Str by having his character do squats during the downtime between sessionsWhy not? Except instead of the character make the actual player increase his squat and bench press to confer the benefit onto the character.
>>92558419What's up with all the nogame theorists and amateur hour game designers in this thread? Was the PathFagger general closed down? Jesus fucking Christ, they are making me miss 2efag not.
>>92558419>How much does it cost to buy this many carts, how much for a bunch of donkeys and retainers to drive the wagon plus their food, recalculate movement speed and treasure allocation, etcSomehow you neglected to mention random encounters which would most likely be doubled or tripled due to the slow progress of lugging a loaded wheelbarrow around. Risk/reward is a cornerstone of OD&D. >take some coins and gems and hustle home >or take EVERYTHING and try to get rich (and XP) quickMaybe if you played games instead of ruminating on them you would feel differently.
>>92558958>which would most likely be doubled or tripled due to the slow progress of lugging a loaded wheelbarrow around.It's implied when I said movement speed would have to be recalculated. It's not something I ignored when I wrote the post, just not very interesting. Likewise they'd be faster with a wagon being pulled by beasts of burden.>>or take EVERYTHING and try to get rich (and XP) quickYou must've run your game wrong if your players somehow manage to survive a dungeon yet think over-encumbering themselves is a good idea. The ideal strategy is to only carry the most valuable treasure. The party moves as fast as its slowest member so everyone might as well reach the same encumbrance breakpoint (Depends on how your game decides movement speed, however).It would be equally stupid for me to say that there's an element of risk/reward in trying to kill every monster in the dungeon for the extra meager XP. It's not really a choice most players would make.
>>92549992?
>>92552165Being earnest and genuine about a passion doesn't require arrogance and would be an actual breath of fresh air compared to pepsi or coke social media posturing with a wwe larp pasted on top. If someone has to repeatedly lie about their own importance they're just creating a cult of personality. Same shit as zak or whoever else.
Its been a long time since I saw here the pixel art anon with his picture of his dead PC comrades. Are you still there anon? Which other deaths have you found
>>92559035minmax faggotboring
>>92558419I never tell my players the value of anything except the coins they find.Gems can be fake, Coins are placed as candlesticks /trade goods.Excel nerds get felted.
>>92552489Depends on how they're moving through, guides and terrain density.>just passing through Regular description, some detail, large obvious features. 1:6 chance of accidentally stumbling over additional stuff. >actively searching the hex, 4 hours Rich description, more detail, large obvious features. 3:6 chance of finding the stuff, increased by 1 for a guide, a map, etc. Sometimes if the weather is inclement I subtract 1 if it seems like it would make it harder to find things.
>>92552659Its okay to ask for directions, doesn't make you less of a man.
>>92552773Treasure maps are part of random treasure for a reason.
>>92552907Since well before that. The various backbiting and political whinging of the indi arts scene has been spilling over into regular /osrg/ raids for years at this point.
>>92553528Off topic to shill Strike! Stop shilling Strike! Or at least do it elsewhere. While it may seem old to you, there are indeed older things than 2007. This combined with not all old things automatically being osr means any 4e wotcdnd enthusiasts would find little in common with this thread and you're better off trying elsewhere. The idea isn't new, its popped up a few times and has had a few attempts at selling. iirc the k6bd guy and associated mess have one, there was Strike!, probably more.
>>92554282>healing potion You feel better now. >fall damage You get hurt. >can only make sense of what happened retroactivelyThat's how time works.
>>92555007At the point players are searching for specific hard information, pull out the sage's rules from the ad&d dmg. If they're just rummaging about I use a modified version of this where I roll an additional dice for accuracy, allowing for 1 additional roll per day for 2d6x10gp. Haven't really had anyone just spam the table to have to deal with that. They seem to try once and move on with the information or what they were already upto. I give the group a free roll when they get back to town, encounter friendly humanoids in the world and parley or otherwise do things where people gossip and share information about the world for good or ill.
>>92558419>A lot of the decisions to be made also lack proper information on the end of the players, making their choices less meaningful.They have information about potential value based on gameplay experience and contextual detail. They have information about risk/reward based on gameplay experience and contextual detail. If you can't get these concepts and information across or don't find a game interesting unless players have perfect information, its a skill issue on your part. >but a meanie GM can do mean things! This is always the case. Its DM in osr newfag. Play some games first. Theory craft maybe later.
>>92546811Even the space required and weapon length columns of this table alone fixes variable weapon damage imo. In tandem with properly enforced encumbrance, it makes weapon selection an important tactical choice and encourages the use of sidearms.
>>92559153Sounds way less fun to steal a bunch of commodities strewn around the dungeon than coins. This doesn't solve the issue though, merely obfuscates the weight-value ratio. Luxury goods and light, valuable items are still king.Fake gems seem particularly pointless, are they meant to figure out they're fake by environmental context, bring in a gem appraiser into the dungeon or just find out once in town? Are these an entry in your treasure table or do you manually place these fake ones?>>92559373Seems like you misunderstood my post as an attack. I would like clarification on how these things are meant to be handled. "Gameplay experience and contextual detail" is too vague, you should provide examples of what you mean. If there's a way to make logistics interesting I'm all ears. Maybe there are some procedures on what happens to the dungeon once you leave it for a few days that I'm missing (Besides going with your gut and have more monsters move in).>This is always the caseOf course any TTRPG is prone to abuse by a bad GM, though TSR D&D has some systems in place to maintain GM neutrality. I've also seen idiotic advice in here before, either fucking over your players or fudging in their favor. Wilderness encounter table rolled a dragon at level 1? He's just flying by. An orc warband of 100+? You hear their war drums and chanting as they pass by in the distance.That gold you hid in the ground along the way back? You can't find it, neither the trees that you marked, try making a map next time.My favorite is pic related from Mentzer himself.
>>92559688Not that anon, but check out this one by Gygax.
B/X dorf cleric, dwarf + cleric but no spells until level 4?
>>92559801Imo, just use cleric, but with a d8 hit points and turn undead and cast spells as one level lower than actual level. Or something like that.
>>92559801I'm this guy >>92559826Also look at the Dwarves of Rockhome for BECMI's take on the question of dwarf clerics.
>>92557149I don't know how you got the idea I like Pathfinder from that post.
Turning Undead:What does the cleric actually do? Does he present the holy symbol to evil creatures? Does he pray the demons go away? Does he threaten them? Are there visible/perceptible signs of magic working?I have my first cleric player in the party and I want to know how I should describe things
>>92559969The cleric presents the holy symbol, and the art in the sections dealing with turning generally show said holy symbol glowing with holy power. As for what the cleric says or whatever, that's just flavor and could be anything that fits thematically, but the player shouldn't have to actually deliver the line, unless it's that kind of game. "In the name of Pelor, begone, thing of darkness!" or something like that, I'd imagine.Also note that it's not just "evil creatures" that are turned. It's specifically undead, and in some games with turning, demons and/or devils as well.
>>92559688>Are these an entry in your treasure table or do you manually place these fake ones?Lowest value gems I roll have a 10% chance to be fakes.My players have ways of figuring out if they are real or not.A fake Ruby is a powerful tool in the hands of a creative player.I don't enjoy the idea of 1000s of coins being scattered in locations,It's a bit diablo 3 brained for my taste.
>>92559969they present the holy symbol saying something threatful.and showy to the creatures
>>92558419There are a few decision points: >You carry as much value in the smallest amount of weight as possible before heavy encumbrance penalties. Discarding copper coins and taking in silver/gold when possible is obvious.This doesn't really change when adding wheelbarrows, carts or wagons, it only adds more calculationsEven though you algorithmically decide what to put in each trip, the number of trips you make before it's no longer worth it and how big of trips you can manage are potentially fun and part of the growth feedback loop where more magic, more HP, more followers and more gold all allow you to get more gold.>A lot of the decisions to be made also lack proper information on the end of the players, making their choices less meaningful. For example unidentified gems or other valuable items might turn out to be a worthless colorful glass or pretty paintings and vases turn out to be worth much less than their weight in silver coins. This isn't a puzzle unless they can ascertain a ballpark value of what they find, it's just gambling.That's true, but there are ways to ascertain a ballpark value. You could ask the DM if the style of art objects matches the style you've seen in ancient dungeons and would therefore have at least some archaeological value. Or you can just bring an appraiser along on a trip.cont'd
>>92558419>>92560055>Not only that but the GM can pull a lot of tricks here. If they leave gold in the now empty cavern will it stay there? In the time it takes to head to civilization and back will it all be gone or new monsters have taken over, even when going as fast as possible? What if they bury it outside nearby, or lock it in a secret room? Will a band of 6d10 bandits ambush them along the road because someone hiring a bunch of wagons caught their attention?Whether there are bandits on the road or remnants in the dungeon which could repopulate it are things the PCs should have some information about just by virtue of travelling there and clearing enough of the dungeon to be considering hauling treasure out. Like you said, there are also precautions they can take like hiding and securing the gold. That's part of the fun. The DM should also roll for whether these things happen if there's uncertainty, which there probably will be.
anybody have experience running an osr style game but using a crunchier system like 4e or 13th age?
>>92560091
>>92560120it's really not, you can have a game focused on dungeon exploration, player agency, and resource management AND have rules-heavy tactical skirmish combat
>>92560138You're either a troll or a lurkmoretourist. Either way you should STFU.
>>92560091I tried it in PF2e. Had to port in a lot of GM-facing mechanics back in, tying level to the WBL tables and working in reactions and morale mechanics. It worked for the most part, but when combat happened fights took so long that I was bored out of my mind and gave up. It's not worth it unless you have infinite time for slow, plodding combat.
>>92560028>Lowest value gems I roll have a 10% chance to be fakes.Sounds reasonable. >My players have ways of figuring out if they are real or not.How do they do it?>I don't enjoy the idea of 1000s of coins being scattered in locationsThe treasure tables are full of entries that are just coins and a lot of early modules are keyed like that. I agree it's not great.>>92560055>>92560060Thank you, these are useful posts. I just wish some of this was in the books.It's hard to find the sweet spot of how much information should be given out, somewhere between vague and useful. Or deciding how the world reacts, something like refilling the entire dungeon feels like undermining their operation.
>>92560091For something that is explicitly 4E look for "Fourthcore".There's also Trespasser by tundalus, which isn't based on 4E specifically and touts to be lightweight. It's more recent, getting updates still.Of course neither are compatible with TSR D&D nor any of its modules, FOE GYG etc etc
>>92560323Ii've heard of fourthcore, i'm interested in giving it a try
>>92560029>>92560006It is important that the cleric carries the holy symbol then. No turning should be done without it i assume, because then is just like a benefic aura of the proper PC or something.
>>92560224>They hold them up against a light source and check for color variance and variably density in the material.>Drop them through oil to see how fast they fall.>They scrape rocks gently with them etc.>Etc etc
>>92560620In b/x the holy symbol is mandatory for the cleric. BTW there's no rule that specify how turn undead work or should work. It's up to DM and players imagination, I suppose
>>92560620This guy >>92560709is right. I tend to think of the art from the books, particularly pic related. That image plus a little Hammer horror movies vibe is what I see in my head and try to describe as when DMing.Deleted and reposted because my filename was going to cause a shitstorm.
>>92560822>Deleted and reposted because my filename was going to cause a shitstorm.Only some things get better the second time around it seems.
>>92560709>>92560822Thanks a lot anons. I have father callahan in mind from Salem's Lot, there is an epic turning scene there. I Will make that fucker buy the holy symbol at the start haha
>>92555878I want a page size hexmap that's not trivial to cross. 6 miles is about right. Yes, that's going to encircle more stuff than I could possibly game. That isn't the point.
>>92560091OSR style game and 4e crunchiness are a contradiction in terms, but there are 4e compatible retroclones. >>92560323 mentions a few, but there are more here: http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/dd-retroclones.htmlMost of them don't even pretend to be appropriate for a OSR style play, but this one is:Basic 4e D&D: http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/4/23742956/basic_4e_dd_sept_2013.pdf
>>92560224The general OSR answer to your concerns of handing out the ideal amount of information, and having the world react without undermining them, is that you shouldn't worry as much about these things and just let stuff happen naturally. Instead of thinking of "handing out" information, you should make your scenario interconnected and detailed so that it includes information they can discover, which you don't "hand" to them. Similarly, the world should operate how it operates without revolving around players. It might sound counterintuitive if you're used to modern play, but it is actually more fun for the world to feel like a real place even if it might arbitrarily fuck the players over, then for things to always go fairly and smoothly. The reason random tables are used so often in OSR is because it ensures you're neither coddling the players nor being sadistic, when you're uncertain about what might happen. Though even better is knowing enough about the immediate setting to be able to say decisively whether the dungeon would or wouldn't be refilled for some reason you've already established, but that's not always possible.
>>92559688>Wilderness encounter table rolled a dragon at level 1? He's just flying by. An orc warband of 100+? You hear their war drums and chanting as they pass by in the distance.Characters under level 5 shouldn't really be in the wilderness
>>92561372Complete freedom for characters to go out and die in the wilderness.Evasion rules for characters are ideal for survival though.
>>92561372>Characters under level 5 shouldn't really be in the wildernessI can't say I agree. Evasion rules in the wilderness are extremely generous, particularly for smaller groups such as the typical low-level party.With experienced players it's perfectly okay to place dungeons a few days away from home base and let them deal with it.The reason for the dungeon/wilderness split in B/X is that it's easier to learn the game this way, not that there is such a clear-cut distinction between when you should do what.
>>92561372Oh I know they really shouldn't, but sometimes the dungeon isn't conveniently within a day's worth of travel from town. Should be at least level 3 by then and they'd be travelling by roads or river, not getting into more extreme biomes.If I roll a dragon, with the worst possible rolls for starting distance and reaction plus they fumble their evasion roll so be it. Though I'm taking the triple digit warbands out of the encounter table, humanoid lairs in the wilderness will be established beforehand when I'm seeding the hexes and if they need to move out or plan to attack that'll be something decided by the nature and needs of their faction, not by having them bump into the players and retroactively assigning reasons why they're moving out of their fine lair. Ideally something the PCs can find out and plan around (Such as the dungeon they cleaned becoming available). No interest in playing out combat between waves of 10 orcs repeatedly charging the players either.
>>92562864You leave, fagballs. KLOWN is ace.
Ran one of the twins through a no prep dungeon, using the solo play rules from The Strategic Review. His map vs my map.
>>92552552So let's take a 16 Constitution Cleric vs. one with 10 Con. Going by the book, through 9th level, the 16 Con cleric is going to average 1.57 times as many hit points. Going by your system, the 16 Con Cleric starts off with 1.6 times as many hit points as his 10 Con peer. That's almost exactly the same percentage as in the book. But you're going to be having the 16 Con Cleric gaining 3 hit points per level compared to just 1 for his 10 Con peer, and by 9th level, that's going to give him a total of 43 hit points to just 18 for the 10 Con cleric. That's 2.39 times as many hit points, which is far too big of an advantage. Also, if each class doesn't have their own hit dice size, that pretty dramatically affects balance, and would need to be compensated for.My method for boosting low-level characters while limiting hit points for high-level characters is simply to give characters multiple hit dice at level 1, but then advance them at half-speed, with +1 hit point at every other level. So, for instance:1st level = 2+1 HD2nd = 33rd = 3+14th = 45th = 4+16th = 57th = 5+18th = 69th = 6+110th = 711th = 7+112th = 7+213th = 7+314th = 7+4Add constitution modifier a number of times equal to the full hit dice, so it gets added 3 times to 3+1 and 7 times to 7+3.But then I also let people go a bit into negatives before they die, with 0 hp indicating unconsciousness (setting -3 hp as the point of death means a dagger can kill a person who is up and functioning).
>>92563632Nice. He's a good mapper. I wish my players were more abstract in their mapping.What issue of strategic review are the solo rules from?
>>92563766Spring, 1975. First issue. :-)
>>92563811They're the same rules as those in Appendix A though, right?
>>92563853It's pretty close. Gary cleaned it up a bit for the DMG. [Spoiler]I used the magazine version because I had it printed on loose-leaf and didn't want the kid to spill or cheeto-finger the real book.[/spoiler]
How do I get my brain accustomed to the size of a Six Mile hex? I know this is a weird question, but I feel like with most other units of measurement I can get those pretty quick. But for some reason a six mile hex still feels abstract and weird (Despite it being pretty much the standard and making the most since for this sort of game.)
>>92563923on level terrain you can see three miles away, standing at the center of a completely flat 6 mile hex is basically your exact vision rangemost medieval villages were within 3 miles of a larger town, so a town at the center of a hex is surrounded by a hex of villages at the edgesyou're going to be walking about 3 miles an hour with your gear so at the center of a hex you can walk to the edge of the hex in an hour
>>92563923Walk for a few miles, go on a hike. Also it's roughly to the edge of the horizon, all elevations being equal. It's defonitely more abstract, only really obvious things would be automatically discovered. And there is room for expansion if you want to make that hex a goldmine of player activity. While 6 miles is big, I feel some overstaye how much would be in any given hex. Yes several villages, roads, a watchtower or two and a cairn could fit in there. In a civilized area, that is. In the wilderness though, it can easily be more sparse.
simply have 6-mile hexes that also contain individual 1-mile hexes and use the appropriate map for how fast/far the PCs are traveling
>>92563923Find locations near your house that are 6 miles away and walk there
>>92560138>>92560145Instead of assuming this anon is asking in bad faith or dismissing him, I'm going to try to explain the problem.Old-school D&D isn't a rules-light game where combat is concerned (combat is probably tied with dungeoneering for being the situation with the most rules to resolve it). Nor is old school combat not tactical. It was based on a pure tactics wargame, after all.It's not even a player agency issue. I haven't played much 4e combat because I hated 4e before I even found out what OSR is, but as far as I can tell players don't really have less agency when playing its combat than classic combat. So that's not really the issue. The issue is more about creativity and immersion.Having a bunch of predefined actions and attacks for every class stifles creativity and is totally against "rulings not rules." When you play 4th edition, the tools you have are the ones written on your sheet, not the ones that exist in the world that DM described, or things you're inspired to try from other fiction you've read.It also harms immersion because of the "dissociated mechanic" thing people were talking about earlier. 4e battle mechanics are often not fleshed out or described in terms of their effect on and in the world. Instead, they're primarily defined by their stats, while the description of what they actually do is like an afterthought to give them flavor. Like a Magic the Gathering card. That's backwards from how OSR does it, where there's generally not a hard distinction between "flavor" and mechanics. The mechanics are there to help abstractly and consistently describe the game world.
>>92563138Cring is gay. Suburban housemoms use the term they learned from reading the Atlantic.
>>92564375>I hated 4e before I even found out what OSR isBased.I didn't like 3e or the DM and quit after "session zero" The DM was describing old school (poorly and trying to highlight how 3e was better) but everything about the older editions sounded better to me. then years later I briefly played in a 5e campaign and after that group fell apart I dropped 5e all together and started DMing B/X for my friends[/spoiler,]
>>92563138Use your mod powers to remove the name field then.
complaining about names in /osrg/ like anyone cares
>>92565558newfag
>party sneaks through bandit turf in a dungeon>listens at a door and hears a bunch of relaxed chatter>not a whole lot farther on they find a secret closet that contains a chest>thief checks it for traps. some kind of mechanism is visible in the keyhole, and a faint but acrid stench comes from within (it's a classic save-or-die gas trap)>instead of disarming it they decide to loudly march past the door all "BOY IT SURE IS A SHAME WE HAVE TO HEAD BACK TO TOWN FOR SACKS TO CARRY ALL THAT GOLD IN, I HOPE NO ONE TAKES IT" like>straight reaction roll between the bandits jumping the PCs right then, or letting them pass and going to investigate>11>players' dumbgenius plan works and they shadow the group of bandits sent to check it out on their way to the previously hidden, very trapped chest>5/8 failed their save, rest are easily mopped up due to surprise>thief says "easiest disarm roll of my life"I both love and hate this. It's clever and using other people to disarm lethal traps is always funny but it also feels like some Loony Tunes shit.
>>92566083So you going to delete the name field or what mod?
>>92566060>straight reaction roll between the bandits jumping the PCs right then, or letting them pass and going to investigateweird flex but okay
>>92566173Idunno how that's a flex. I guess I could have just said roll-under charisma but I went with 2d6+cha modifier to sound convincing enough. I don't really like that all that much though.I wasn't sure what they'd do so I just rolled for it between two outcomes with "going to check it out" being on a 10+.
>>92566196Morale checks. You do a morale check to see if a group does something retarded or not. The weird flex is using the wrong ruling that doesn't make any sense and when it turns out goofy complaining about it.
>>92566212How does morale make any more sense? And I wasn't complaining so much as sharing a funny thing from my game. It's a bit damaging to the tone but ultimately whatever. Sometimes bandits are stupid and blinded by greed, I guess.
>>92566060Based osr session
>>92566242Morale checks are specifically for group discipline. Its literally the thing you should have used. Reaction rolls are for initial points of contact and disposition if it is in any way uncertain. You weren't uncertain of the bandit's disposition just their methods. You did it wrong. Its okay. Shit happens and you rolled with it and it was still fun. Weird to complain about it thought.
>>92566173Overused tumblr meme but okay
>>92566212>The weird flex is using the wrong ruling that doesn't make any sense and when it turns out goofy complaining about it.Reaction roll is the correct mechanic to use before combat has started to determine how the bandits react. Morale would be checked during combat when the appropriate thresholds are reached.>>92566060You have a smart player there. Don't listen to the fag. You ran that correctly.
>>92566289Nope. He already knew the bandits were hostile. No reaction roll needed. Deciding what a group does in regards to being smart combatants or ill disciplined retards is what its for.
>>92566289Further, he didn't even use a reaction roll proper, he just used it as some sort of >be stupid scale roll. Turns out making a bad call and having a possibility of 'loony tunes' shit without being okay with that as an outcome is a bad use of dice. Don't roll them if you don't want the outcomes to be random.
>>92566257>Reaction rolls are for initial points of contactThat was the initial point of contact. They overheard the PCs talking about treasure. Reaction roll was appropriate.>>92566300>He already knew the bandits were hostileWhere did he say that?Monster Morale checks are for fleeing and surrendering. They're for combat
>>92566316>Further, he didn't even use a reaction roll properYes he fucking did. >hostile = they attack the party first and take the other treasure later >friendly = they play it safe and just take the chest
>>92566257It wasn't really a matter of discipline. Disciplined people can still act on incorrect information and having incorrect information doesn't make you more stupid. The sub-boss was in the room with them and ordered some goons to check it out, even. It was a matter of 1) whether they'd believe the lie or not and 2) fairly random between taking the risky violence-likely opportunity presented by confronting a party of adventurers, or taking the unrisky (according to the lie) opportunity of going for unguarded treasure.There's not REALLY a mechanic for that (either of those), but I figured 2d6+CHA of the guy orchestrating the lie vs a moderately high TN would be the easiest approximation. I could have just given it to them, but it didn't feel appropriate.
>>92566365>>92566333>between the bandits jumping the PCs right then, or letting them pass and going to investigateHostile. No uncertainty there. They either pick a fight right away or they don't and investigate. Morale checks are for group discipline in or out of combat.
>>92566388>sub boss See that's important context. So you used a reaction roll to decide if a lie was believable which sort of works but seems weird to me, and you. Cha rolls are lame and a bad way to go. So morale. Also fills in for leadership skills and decision making.
>>92566410Why would failing morale have made them take the objectively safer option of letting the group of adventurers pass and just swooping in and taking unprotected loot?
>>92566390>Hostile. No uncertainty there. They either pick a fight right away or they don't and investigate.What the FUCK are you talking about. Those are the two outcomes. The DM was unsure if they would be hostile or if they would be "friendly" and avoid the combat for free loot instead. Another DM could have forgone the reaction roll altogether and ruled that the players on their turf therfore they attack. If the DM is unsure how monsters react then a REACTION roll is used. >Morale checks are for group discipline in or out of combat.I think you're thinking of retainer loyalty checks. Monster Morale rolls in B/X are only made during combat to decide if they flee/surrender or continue fighting.
Go ahead and read Monster Actions (reaction rolls), Loyalty and Morale in Basic.
>>92545989I need a tip for a Dungeon that would last for 2 to 3 hours.My players for plot reasons are going in a ruined city full of undead to fetch the soul of a very important character.Do you happen to know any dungeons that would fit this bill?
>>92567404Red Mage has a few videos about short adventures. Choose any of these.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeS9twTGKMwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyHs-PgYA2A
>>92554035Could replace this table with something really simple like a DR system and blunt/piercing/slashing. Simply, intuitive, and gives a good reason to carry a variety of weapons.Or even simpler just split armor AC bonus into types, all it needs is keeping track of three numbers instead of one.Bonus points for weapon reach classes.
>>92552323It would be Runequest
>>92553528I've seen Orcus, but it does it's own thing. 4E has th problem that it needs to figure out how to make interesting powers for players and monsters.
>>92566457Ntayrt but he is just trolling you.
anyone got play by post advice?
>>92552323It was mentioned but not discussed last thread because it's not OSR.Just let people have class fantasy, pre-defined progress and role separation.
>>92567404Tomb of Horrors
>>92567404Yikes man it takes like no time to make a dungeon fit for a few hours of play.You'd spend longer learning the premade adventure.
Is ad&d or OSE more popular online? (Prefer Pbp right now)
Are there any bestiaries of prehistoric animals out there? I'd like to use shit like Megatherium for my setting.
>>92555551mozai<dot>com/writing/not_mine/Pokethulhu.pdfMaybe you could modify this system to use for an old school game?
This guy gets it.
Would you have a % chance by level (like thief skills) for a wizard to identify magic or a spell? Detect Magic is supposed to work like that but I want PCs to be able to tell when a door is magically locked, for example. Should that even be a roll or should I just assume any magic user can identify a basic magic lock and be able to tell they need to use the knock spell?How would other DMs handle this.
First three sessions as a noob dm, which mechanics are absolutely the most important to have on reference?
>>92560138That way lies GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, and https://dungeonfantastic.blogspot.com/ seems to have a good time with it.
>>92547963Saved, but it'll be awhile until I'm running something that can use it. It looks cool though.
>>92570241Encounter procedures. Distance, surprise, reactions, etc. This is very important. You'll be rolling this shit every time and it's good to have the procedure down. Don't announce any individual component until you've determined all of them, either, or weird annoying shit will happen 100% of the time.Anything related to combat you don't have perfectly internalized. You do not want to slow combat down at all under any circumstances, it's supposed to be fast paced. Having a good reference sheet is paramount until you know everything like the back of your hand. Playing it RAW you will very quickly find out if you or your group actually like the pre-initiative declaration phase or not, and whether you're going to need to use some kind of combat hack. Disliking it is very common in my experience and from what I've seen people say online. Never hurts to have the text for all level 1 spells handy. Also thief skills. You don't need these at the drop of a hat but it's very good to have them on hand so you don't have to spend time futzing around finding the page or whatever. I guarantee they'll come up.Almost goes without saying but use a time tracker sheet. I've seen people try to get by just tracking in their head and it is not pretty.
>>92570078It's DM's prerogative really. There isn't one true way, and I'd have no issue with letting wizards roll or even having them automatically identify a good number of spells. I personally dislike percentile rolls, because they're needlessly granular, but that's just nitpicking.
>>92568741I would think OSE would be more accessible, both due to the sheer number of B/X clones out there, and due to how much more streamlined it is, but I really have no idea.
>>92570241What game are you running sir?
>>92571050why doesn't the southern wiener lake have a settlement on it bro? why are they avoiding it?
>>92565558lol
>>92566060This is great: I love this.>>92567404Maybe this one:https://clericswearringmail.blogspot.com/2022/01/warlock-tower-pdf.htmlThere are undead and a necromancer in it: could easily replace the swamp-themed encounters on the random list with undead.Good luck!
>>92566060Sounds like you're a comfy referee.
>>92568741OSE
>>92566060>I both love and hate thisHonestly your sole mistake here. Skip the hate, this is top dungeoneering as well as a classic example of a clever plan that really *is* clever and *should* have a good chance of success.
>Hexmap gives me a decent sized lake in the middle of the bit I'm exploring>Manage to get a boat>Find out it can go 30 fucking miles in one day when most the rest of the area is mountain leaving me doing 6 miles a day tops>And its large enough to carry shitloads of loothttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlti8Q-gU-Q
>>92559688>>92559727>kills you're PC with a 3d8 no save bolt from the blue because you didn't bring pizzanothing personnel faggots
NEW>>92574597>>92574597>>92574597>>92574597>>92574597
>>92566060That's exactly the kind of thing I wish my players would do more of. I always reward this kind of thinking. Sounds like a fun group.
>>92574936
