Is having dedicated resource cards like MtG and Pokemon actually "bad design" like lots of people say? Yu-Gi-Oh seems to suffer repetitive combo play and complexity creep without a resource system. People praised Force of Will and Duel Masters for "fixing" mana but they're very derivative and almost nobody played them, the developers actually commented they felt their design space was limited for the latter because it's harder to get ahead or behind the curve as a player which felt "fairer" but was less dynamic.
>>92562274>Yu-Gi-Oh seems to suffer repetitive combo play and complexity creep without a resource system.that's because all decks worth playing in yugioh literally step over the game's resource system of 1 normal summon per turnthis is like if every worthwhile magic card could be played without paying its mana cost
>>92562274premium resources: yes
>>92562274I like the way the MLP game does it : your requirements for playing cards are total power and AP. Everyone gets the same amount of AP to spend, based on the score of the leading player. It's neat because it leads to different deck curve strategies : some cards have high AP cost but no power requirement. So you can do a standard curve, with your cards requiring higher and higher power to play, or you can go for cards that cost a lot of AP but can be played as soon as you can afford them. And of course decks can employ a mix of the two strategies, there isn't really a dominant meta that I've seen.
>>92562274Duel Masters ended up played more than MtG in Japan, but that's mostly because it was introduced first. In general though, the purpose of a resource system is just to control the pace of the game. How do you make it so that the first player doesn't just dump their opening hand on the table, play a dozen draw spells, and win on the spot? By putting a limit on how many things you can do in a turn.
>>92562274Wizards fucking purposefully killed Duel Masters in the West and fucking MTG and store owners were fucking assholes if you played the game.God every single MTG player in the 2000s treated you like shit if you played yugioh or duel masters, adults and teenagers being mean to children is fucking retarded and I'm glad WOTC is getting fucked over by Hasbro
>>92562274Normally I'd say just play more games, the counter-point comparison isn't YGO, but practically every TCG designed within the last 10 years.>Duel Masters>very derivative and almost nobody played themYou're joking, right? Just because it got canned in NA doesn't mean it wasn't played. It was the dominant tcg in Japan for decades, which is arguably a far more competitive landscape for tcgs. Then look at basically any big tcg that's come out in the last few years - Lorcana, One Piece, Stars Wars - they all use Duel Masters-based resource systems. Lands look pretty, but are terrible game design.
>>92566379Lands are a card type where the odds of being angry every single game because you drew or didn't draw a land is almost 100%
>>92565819>mlpStopped reading right there clopper>>92566283Duel Monsters was a strictly inferior version of Magic, and from day one had a joke of "Magic with YuGiOh" from most publications. Packs literally gathered dust on the shelves here until they were sold wholesale or at a loss. Duel Masters failure in the States was entirely organic, and I never saw anyone above the age of 8 buy a deck or pack, and most of those kids, also bought the considerably more popular and successful YuGiOh. Also WotC was owned by Hasbro in the 2000's, and as someone who use to make fun of kids who played YuGiOh, and would teach them the superior game of Magic: the Gathering, I applaud your saltiness. (This being said, pre-banlist yugioh is awesome).
It’s probably outdated but the whole game is based around it so can’t really change now. I prefer how lorcana / unlimited work where most things can be used as a resource
>>92566883I'm glad MTGs' non commander formats are dying
POV: You're about to hear the most uninformed hot take on card game design in your life
Whether having mana or energy is bad design is one thing, but it's clear that having dedicated resource cards has turned out to be a superior system to alternative of "all cards can be used as a resource." It is extremely rare in these systems that a card is usable both as resource and as a "normal" card, which means there is more opportunity cost attached to playing a card as a resource. This makes the game confusing and often frustrating for new players (which will be all of them in a new game) because you can't know ahead of time which cards you were supposed to turn into resources and which cards you were supposed to play. Getting mana screwed or flooded is unfortunate, but is much less frustrating than dead man walking a game out for ten turns, only to find that the card you played on turn 2 was the card you actually needed to win.
I like the sliding scale that digimon has, fuck lands, never liked them, only ever tolerated them because Magic had neat art, now that Magic has shit art I don't have to do that anymore.
>>92567517lands would be good if they banned fetches 10 years ago
>>92567301Yeah so am I. Vintage was the only noble format.>Legacy A bunch of try hard faggots who were too late to the ball to play w/ power and people trying to make a career from a hobby. Literally the gayest of all MTG players. Filled with proxyniggers now>ModernWas once a brewers paradise. The only people sticking to this format are people too invested to leave. Battered wife syndrome>StandardArena players? >PioneerAdderall addicted zoomers who can't focus on the game and constantly have to vape, check their phones. Meme format that was DOA. >PauperActually not bad.
>>92567411i rather watch this pedo creep, before any faggot who defends powercreep garbage like yugioh or mtg. duel masters all the way!
Saying that yugioh has no resource system is idiotic, its just the most complex resource system of them all. Its why the entire meta revolves around trying to stop your opponent from accessing the resources they want and forcing them to commit to more and more scary chokepoints
>>92568159go kill yourself, yugioh shitter!
Literally nothing with Yugioh. Its the card game version of thishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_UeEwNtvUw
>>92566883Your loss, normienigger.
>>92567411his opinions are better than yours
>>92568159HOPTs as a resource system is interesting design in that it encourages your deck to be more flexible to avoid chokepointing as opposed to always aiming at optimizing one linear line.>>92568430Yugioh filtering shitters like you is a feature.
Every card has a TEMPO number; if not: assume that it has TEMPO 0 (zero).You may discard cards from your hand in order to spend their TEMPO as a resource (more on this later)... maybe you have to spend TEMPO from discarded cards in order to pay for other cards (like maybe you have to discard/spend 5 TEMPO in order to play a TEMPO 5 card).To play a card with TEMPO X+1, you must already have in play another card with TEMPO X. You may not have more cards in play with TEMPO X+1 than the number of cards you already have in play with TEMPO X.So, everybody can play TEMPO 0 (zero) cards whenever they like, but playing a TEMPO 1 card requires that you already have at least one more TEMPO 0 card than TEMPO 1 cards in play (and playing that TEMPO 1 card then allows you to play a TEMPO 2 card).Maybe we should pyramid TEMPO? Like, you may not have more TEMPO X+1 cards in play than one less than the number of TEMPO X cards in play.Being able to choose between either PLAYING a card, or DISCARDING a card in order to pay for something else, is pretty neat.If you're still reading this, please contribute.
>>92562274>Is having dedicated resource cards like MtG and Pokemon actually "bad design"No, but drawing them completely randomly from your deck is.
>>92566453skill issue
>>92572113Go back to l3ddit
>>92568102eternal formats (vintage, legacy, pauper) are great
>>92567301Same, I want someone to buy WOTC after Hasbro folds.
>>92575800You lost me as soon as you started on the X+1 shit because you just say it like X+1 is already an established concept. If all you meant was>to play a card with higher TEMPO you must have the previous TEMPO number in playthen ok.I've read this repeatedly>you may not have more TEMPO X+1 cards in play than one less than the number of TEMPO X cards in play.and it still makes no sense to me with the way it's structured."You may not have more [A] cards in play than one less than the number of [B] cards in play" just reads confusing af.
>>92562274Yes. It's needless deck bloat that fucks with your draw percentage and can easily lead to dead turns. MtG is the king of sterile netdecks, despite having tens of thousands of cards the vast majority never see play because they're functionally useless in actual games, and most of this is because the majority of cards do too little for their cost or are simply too expensive to play, so the game is dominated by the handful of broken cards that are cheap to play and do way more than their cost should let them.An alternate system like giving each card an inherent resource value so you can play it as a "land" or a creature/spell/whatever would allow far more freedom for deck building...as long as the cards are intelligently designed and balanced. The main problem with all TCG games is that the designers are walking a tight rope between creating fun and balanced cards, and motivating sweaty faggots into buying boosters. The majority of sealed products are bought by a handful of no life whales who want to find the best cards to flip on the singles market or to slot into their own decks so they can win more. As such, the more balanced the game is, and the more possible viable decks one can build, the less money the company will make.
>>92576127I really wish lands were their own library. If your game needs to have mulligan rules because you have a genuinely high chance of not getting to do anything your first few turns because you didn't get 1-3 lands in your opening hand, your system fucking sucks.
>>92577237It took me a few reads, but I think he's saying 'you can't have equal or more of the previous stage'So if there's two Tempo 0 cards, then you can only have one Tempo 1 card. One less than the two Tempo 0 (X) would be one card, and so playing another Tempo 1 (X+1) card would put you at two, which would be more than one less than two, so you can't. Likewise, if you had five Tempo 0 cards, you could only have four Tempo 1 cards, because any more than that would be exceeding five minus one. There's almost certainly simpler ways to word that though.
>>92567411it is always good practice to ignore the opinions of fat people so I'm glad he shows his mug while talking online
>>92577899I think you're right, that fits the pyramid progression. I appreciate it
