>an entire generation of gamers believe in a made up past where rules-light systems and tons of DM fiat was how people played D&D, and they call it "old-school gaming".How do we fix the damage caused by this document?
>>92608782Damage to what?
>>92608787To your brain apparently.
>>92608833Feel free to answer honestly.
>>92608782It could be fixed by teaching them if jannies were not hell-bent on removing comments and images that explain what OSR means.
>>92608861OP here.Don't you think lying to people is bad by itself? Except for the focus on resource management, eveything this document describes as "old school D&D" is wrong. The damage is a generation of players buying low effort copy/pasted crap believing they are playing D&D like in the good old days. And on the top of that they are also missing the real deal.
>>92608782If you were honest about your concerns you would have posted (and better articulated) your question in the /osrg/ thread, therefore you're not worthy of any answer other than ridicule.
>>92608948OSR and "old school gaming" are distinct concepts. Welcome to the board.
>>92608987Very well, use this opportunity to bump your thread by schooling me: how are osr and "old school gaming" irreconcilable? Why don't they inform each other?
>>92609012Not going to reward your sealioning and derail the thread.
>>92609035Gotcha, you're just full of shit and without any point to make. Back to step 1 it is.
>>92608892>Don't you think lying to people is bad by itself?Yes, but lying in itself does not cause damage.>The damage is a generation of players buying low effort copy/pasted crapThey were absolutely going to do that anyway. At most it might have slightly changed the flavour of crap they were buying, but I'd hardly call that "damage".
>>92608782>hear people saying that old-school D&D was rules light and had a lot of DM-fiat>actually read the rules and read about how oldheads actually played>the rules are heavily procedure driven, more so than many modern RPGs>only Basic D&D was rules-light, OD&D with all the supplements and AD&D had a shitton of detailed rules>tons of third party supplements focused on making more detailed and realistic combat systems for D&DHuh…
>>92609052OK FOEGYG
The OSR can really be broken into three groups. The Nostalgists, the Originalists, and the Grifters.OSR started on Dragon's Foot with the Nostalgists. People who are now in their 40s and 50s who wanted to recapture the feel of playing D&D as a kid in the 80s and 90s. This is the group that gave us the terms Simulacrum Games and Retroclones. It's typified by people who don't come /here/ and mostly play better formatted repacks like OSRIC or repacks with slight changes (Labyrinth Lord or BFRPG).Then there are the Originalists, people who hyperfixate on arbitrary cut-off dates that delineate an imagined platonic ideal of what D&D could be, then pretend that it actually existed.Finally are the grifters who just want to shit out as much low-effort content they can to scam people who just want more new content for the older games they like.>>92608782The document has only hurt the D&D OSR, as all of the other old school revival movements aren't a trifractured mess of autists each with a strikingly different methods of interacting with their games. It's also why /osrg/ is the biggest lolcow in retro tabletop gaming.>VXHRPGI thing we need to to f95 for those.
>>92608782>How do we fix the damage caused by this document?You just wait. That's it. Retards aren't even reading the OP of a general let alone a document with more than 500 words. Its already faded from the recommended history, the bandwaggoners will move onto new thing, ideally there will be a significant economic downturn and all of you will have to get real jobs, forget about gaming for a while and fuck off.
>>92608782>>92609602Regardless of how many rules they wrote, both Arneson and Gygax were open about literally just ignoring rules and playing in a way that tosses whatever was written out the window. The only one who treats every rulebook as epistemology to be followed as doctrine for every procedure is a fucking rube.
>>92608892So what? Why should I care how other people play make believe?
>>92608782So are you complaining about the approaches advocated in this book or just the alleged ahistoricity?
>>92608782I started playing RPGs in 1988 and while there were very complicated games and supplements available I never met anyone who actually played them properly. A lot of these products were sold, read once, deemed "too hard" and went to a shelf or a charity shop. On a similar note: I never met anyone who played Fighting Fantasy books honestly, and Warhammer was popular principally because it was less annoying to play than the historical wargames it supplanted (also because space guys are cooler than Cromwell vs Charles).If anything my principal memory of gaming back then would be "inelegant." There was no understanding of how or why things should be streamlined, and lots of cruft with table lookups and special exceptions and stupid dice all over the place. I vividly remember how shocked I was reading the WEG Star Wars rulebook because things just fucking worked and didn't need a ton of bullshit to remember. A homemade GM screen could explain most of the game. Glorious.
>>92610879No you didn't.
>>92611033Go pick up a copy of Dragon Warriors and tell me it's a better play experience than WEG Star Wars. Hell, go look back over the board games available at the time. You really think Talisman would fly today, or Dragonlance with the weird stacking disks?
>>92611492I notice you didn't deny that I'm right.
>>92609035Well, Id like to know. HonestlyIm not well verse on old school gaming, so Id like to learn. I havent found RPGs Fun for a while now, so id hope this woulf reignite that enjoyment.
>>92609035They're reconcilable then.
>>92611670I'm not particularly interested in getting into a slapfight with you over my age. I know how old I am.Talk about your own memories or fuck off back to your pony thread.
>>92610879This, all of this.I'm currently playing in a Napoleonic game run by my dad, and as a time capsule of 70s-80s wargaming it's vith fascinating and horrific. The stupid dice, the stat tables, nothing standardised, terrible rulebook. Marking off individual casualties and waiting till they total a certaib number so you can remove a figure. The hours and hours of play to get the basics done. Truly it was a different time.
>>92608782I had no idea this document even existed, and I've been working on my games just fine. Knowing this document exists won't change how I make my games.I'm sorry for whatever "damage" you're experiencing because of it, and I hope you're able to find a solution to it.
>>92609602Actually, that is not true? ADnD for all of it's faults is ironically lower on rules then say...5e ed DnD by far, combat is a lot more basic, as is grappling and what not, a lot of is quite abstract and far from certain.
>>92609699>as all of the other old school revival movements aren't a trifractured mess of autists each with a strikingly different methods of interacting with their games.Then why are you butthurt about "Originalists" and /osrg/ with a hard cut-off date for OSR D&D?The "arbitrary" cut-off date is there to prevent the Originalist spaces from be over run by the Grifter scene (Börk Börk, ShadowDark, Knave, etc)The rest of the D&D OSR scene is a "fractured mess" because the rest of the D&D OSR let's the grifters define what OSR is (which is anything they're trying to sell)Do you happen to be an asshurt 2e nostalgic that feels left out? Because you sound like one.
>>92614265Why are you so mad? Is it because he's right?
>>92608782Oh No don't damage the holy perfection of Dungeon and Dragons! Don't sully it with these fake lies about a make belief game!
>>92608782>>92609699That document is a naïve and/or ill-intentioned justification for the fucking tripe that passes for OSR today, such as Shadowdark, Knave and that shitty Bork bullshit. In other words, it hasnt changed fuck all, because those that actually know how to play old school D&D, like me, because I started with B/X in 1980 and AD&D a couple of years later, know how to play. It's OD&D, BD&D or AD&D 1e minus Dragonlance, and any combination thereof. Anything is try-hard insufferable poseur shit.
>>92614606I ain't even mad. I'm just saying it's the upper plane of astral autism to recognize the fractured mess of grifters and "striking different methods" that is the OSR while also being butthurt at a subgroup that sticks to a hard definition in order to prevent this fracturing from happening to their subgroup.
>>92610879>Fighting FantasyI got into those books - and yes, I was as dishonest as anyone - but they were my gateway to RPGs. I got into proper roleplaying a year or two after you, anon, and I agree. While I loved playing Dungeons & Dragons, we had a good DM. I found other games - Traveller, Paranoia, Vampire: The Masquerade, Cyberpunk 2020 - to be more streamlined and accessible, for the most part. And I'm sure they could be refined further.Have to admit I would love to get the feeling back from those old times, and have play that captures the flavour if not the occasional autistic levels of crunch or frantic thumbing through rulebooks or gear splats. I live in hope of finding a group that is into OSR, which favours a system that fits that kind of mould, or that plays D&D or AD&D.As for wargames? Never really my thing, barring some friends who had Space Hulk - my one and only brush with 40K, and yes, space marines vs genestealers was cool and kino. Probably still is.
>>92608782I feel like the whole "old school" movement is more of an aesthetic and a reactionary stance against modern gaming culture(failing forward, session zero, metacurrencies, actual plays, etc) than some unified body of games. I mean, you have everything from 80's DnD clones to abstract/storytelling horror games to games that have oldschool style shitty art but mostly modern mechanics like luck points etc. >>92610879That's how I remember Shadowrun as a teenager in the 90's. I'm pretty sure we had guns/melee combat mostly right. But the decking and rigging? Those rules were insanely dense and mostly got ignored or simplified.
>>92614871>>92614889The old ways still persist. I think the thing most people struggle and strive to recapture is entirely separate from the games. We want our youth back. We want first times and wonder and having more potential than experience. But you can never go back. What you can do is try to give wonder to you get players. Intrigue them, lead them, give them half of what they want and then muse aloud what could be around the next corner. Does that mean meeting their tastes sometimes? Yes, probably, but it also means trying to show them what you love about what you love. You can never have your first time again, but you can make someone else's first time the best it can possibly be. Be the Obi Wan this time around: you had your turn as Luke.
>>92615068I don't think I'd make much of an Obi-Wan right now; I was never a skilled DM. Although given how much water has passed under the bridge, and how life has changed me, I'd be willing to learn. Just need to find a good group and get some sessions in as a player to learn whichever system first.That's the other thing that's different. I've tried 5e, both at a FLGS and at my local games club, and not only is it mechanically different, but playstyles are different too. I can't say exactly why - maybe it's playing with people half my age. We never really gelled, even though I get on fine with the ones at the club and enjoy board games with them. So there's a big question mark over whether I could find players for any game I ran, or whether the old-school play style is teachable.Maybe I should start a Discord for crusty old grogs, eh? Who knows, might actually get a decent game there... before slicing off some walrus guy's arm. You're right, though - I am far more cynical than I was as a teen (when everything was awesome and new), and even a new system won't give me first-time vibes again. Maybe it's time to hit up eBay and rebuild the old collection, or maybe it's time to learn something different. Old School Essentials, maybe, or Cepheus?
>>92608782That document itself, there's nothing wrong with it. You just have to actually read it and use common sense instead of letting youtubers lie to you about what it says.
>>92614840This sounds like the seething and crying of someone who is wrong and mad, and just needs to play more games.
>>92615363You could do either of those things. The important thing to do is to do it with a sense of loving abandon. Hold nothing back.
>>92615633>the OSR is heck'n fractured and everyone has vastly different methods */osrg/ existing*>NOOOOOOOO "originalist" OSR subgroups with a more unified OSR definition and playstyle are le bad!!!!1>pointing this out means you're mad tho
>>92609602>>92613279It's a matter of where the rules are. 5e doesn't have anything like dungeon turns or reaction rolls, but has a bunch of things like maneuvers and features to use in combat.
>>92608782>Rules liteThis descriptor bothers me because when it comes to combat and exploration the old systems aren’t lite, they just aren’t convoluted (combat) and are structured (exploration). The social aspect (minus hiring mercs) is where there is pretty much free form shit because that stuff is FLUFF. The core is going to a Dungeon, clearing traps, dealing with monsters, and just ADVENTURING.
>>92615474I've read this shit before and it's kind of astounding that it was considered foundational at all>REAL GAMERS play 20 questions with every 5ft step and can instantly intuit and solve any puzzle without ever touching the dice because they mentally connected to the DM and can interpret his intention instantly.>FAKE GAMERS are hyperbolic whiny babies who want to use the mechanics provided to them by the system and can't do anything without rolling dice or adhering to the rules
It's not much a real discussion at this point. Reactions to a reaction to a reaction of some guy's blog half the time, and a bunch of the people involved are nogames. Swords & Wizardry is cool, that's all I will say.
Imagine giving even the most remote of fucks about this.
>>92608782>tons of DM fiat was how people played D&DThat was true. GM is god of the table and that was standard until 5th edition wokeshit.
>>92608892>Don't you think lying to people is bad by itself? Again, damage to what?>Except for the focus on resource management, eveything this document describes as "old school D&D" is wrong.>>92608892I've heard David Wesley describe Braunstein and it sounds like a rules lite larp where he made up character combat rules on the spot.
>>92615068>I think the thing most people struggle and strive to recapture is entirely separate from the games. We want our youth back. We want first times and wonder and having more potential than experience. But you can never go back.100%. Grifter products always promise to recapture the magic. You can't go back to being that kid figuring out what a rust monster or cockatrice does for the first time. You're a middle-aged guy and your friends don't have the time and attention span to painstakingly explore a 3 level dungeon.
You can't. Stop trying to regulate how other people have harmless fun. Mind your own business.
>>92615474This is actually an interesting read,>>92616162The funny thing is, a lot of older games ARE rules-lite. Ish. I mean, look at Traveller compared to, say, 5e. The dice mechanics are simpler, and you have a complete game in less space than the three 5e corebooks.>>92618756It would be nice if there was a setting so different that us older gamers have to figure things out for the first time. Having the time to fingertip search every flagstone for a trap... yeah, that's a bit harder when you've got a job, a family, a home to maintain, groceries to buy and meals to prepare.But I think this is what was different about my experiences in groups of younger players to my own memories. They were a lot more mechanical - I don't want to say "they play D&D like a video game", but it was "I use my X skill", or "I'm going to roll to Y". It lacked the narrative warmth that we did describing our actions, and letting the DM decide when and how to roll. Personally I like it the old way - it's cosy and relaxed. Might have to see if the kids can pick it up...
>>92616405I can't help myself to notice how both of the extremes fall flat once you introduce the notion of dungeon turns.
>>92619079>It lacked the narrative warmth that we did describing our actions, and letting the DM decide when and how to roll.You know what modern game tries to do this? Dungeon World. Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like that game overall but I did like them putting that front and centre. Players should think about "the fiction" (in-game stuff, whatever you want to call it) more and the GM should think about the rules when needed. All the player build tinkering reminds me of MTG and that's not a type of game I ever enjoyed.
>>92618756Man, this makes me feel so called-out. I am a middle aged man, and nothing makes me feel like a kid anymore. That said, it seems that marketing guys have decided that since I must have more disposable income than a 12-year-old, everything that I'd call NuSR is directly marketed as some kind of reimagining of my own experiences as a youngster. Never does it really work, and I'm not interested in chasing the impossible "new ttrpg experience" at all. I just want to play BX with other old folks. In a few years, we'll likely all be playing old school games in the nursing home.
>>92618756>don't use generic monsters Its not hard. There's buckets of easy to use generators or tables or things that make them different enough you don't recognize them.>set aside time for your friends and hobbies in your 30s otherwise it will never happen and will negatively impact your life quality. Gaming 4 hours once every 2 weeks is a reasonable thing to do and the only impediments to it are being shit at life. If your costs of living are beyond that acquire better skills and work, if your friends are unable to willingly be friends over time acquire better friends. >>92619079>time and blahblagblaahFuck around on the internet and social media less. You will magically have more time.
