>High cost of TCGs>''This TTRPG only uses 6 sided dice!''>A company prints off these minis thousands at a time for pennies, that will be 55 dollars for you, thanks, enjoy painting the bland grey shit.
I hate poorfags and mathlets.
>>92614203>This TTRPG only uses 6 sided diceAlright, why is this bad
>>92614203The thousandth model cost a penny to make. The first one cost two hundred thousand dollars.
>>92615162If you roll a 2d6 you're more likely to get a 6 than a 12 while if you roll a d20 every outcome is equally likely, so rerolls matter more.
>>92615202The molds wear out too, so the thousandth-and-first one can end up costing two hundred thousand dollars again.
>>92615350dice pools and roll and keep systems completely rape your shitty argument. Get a better one.
>>92614203I really dislike that I have to make the things that I want.I envy the large majority of the TTRPG playerbase, who can just get what they want pumped out of a corporation's asshole or retooled by a good arbiter. I know this sounds backhanded, but I unironically envy them in the way they get great amounts of enjoyment for little to no effort.To get any enjoyment from a TTRPG, it needs to be a game, to have engaging combat, to have a variety of character options that mesh together (or at the least to have no worthless choices), to have a variety of enemies with which to use those options on, with differing levels of effect based on the skill versus target.I need to be constantly changing and balancing in order to make something I enjoy; I spend more time developing than playing by easily a factor of 100.It's a load of misery for a little bit of joy, joy that goes unappreciated, because it's too "gamist" "video games" "autism", and "your shitty homebrew will never be as good as D&D" despite the sentiment I should be rewriting what I don't like from D&D.It kinda sucks, to be honest.
>>92615350>being able to perform consistently is bad, even mundane things I do regularly should swing constantly between flawless success and absolute catastrophe
imagine having a preference for a particular kind of dice. Jesus. thank god I'm not you.
>>92615350ok? what makes you think "rerolls matter" is a design goal in every system, or rerolls themselves existing in the first place being a given? tg poster reasoning is more incomprehensible than x sometimes ffs
>>92617479prowlers and paragons meets all of those requirements with no changes needed
>>92614203>only uses 6 sided diceThat's a good thing.
>>92618336Smells of GURPS
>>92618429>GURPS invented cubes
>>92619271>a sentiment commonly parroted by GURPSfags isn't a warning sign of a GURPSfagAlmost as retarded as those 5efags and other D&Dtards.
>>92617944From a surface glance, I saw people say it's>superheroes>used with D6sI'd need to change those things at the very least, and by the sounds of it, there aren't many rules to the system, so I'd likely end up having to add a bunch of shit to it anyway.
>>92618429>>92620412I was thinking about Traveller, schizoid. Take your fucking medicine.
I hate how the rpg market works desuEverything is on kickstarter and they do one print run for the kickstarter backers plus some surplus, then once that's over the book sits at out of stock on the pages of 30 different retailers even though they never plan to print more (even if its a game popular enough to still have a lot of demand for physical copies)The whole industry now is just expecting you to pay for pdfs with physical books now being collector's items rather than the most useful way to read them at the table.
>>92614203>Ttrpg uses proprietary props>Ttrpg uses multiple props (dice, cards, tokens, etc...) hardcoded within the rulesystem>Ttrpg is "D&D but...">Ttrpg is 5e compatible / PbtA / FitD / Fate>Ttrpg is a nuSR microfiction brew or the nth B/X reimplementation/retroclone with a thin paint of whatever on top>Ttrpg core book is so minimal it needs supplements as almost mandatory to properly work>Ttrpg is actually interesting enough to get my attention (i will never ever have the chance to run/play it with my current groups)
>>92615162It's lazy. People act like ''OH EVERYONE HAS 6 SIDED DICE'' yeah well no shit they do but anyone even remotely interested in TTRPG's will have a polyhedral set.The only reason for using D6's is laziness and poor game design.
>Support my kickstarter for an awesome sounding game!>It's not just a shitty PbtA clone! I promise! lol!
>>92621318>>Ttrpg core book is so minimal it needs supplements as almost mandatory to properly workI'm looking at you, Cthulhu Dark.What a shit system.
>>92621318>>Ttrpg is 5e compatible / PbtA / FitD / FateAnd the kickstarter has stretch goals like gold page binding and leather cover or some shit and in the end it's just some shit PbtA garbage with a coat of ''ORIGINAL IDEA!''.
>>92615162Mathematically, economically, practically: I really like d6. But my stupid-ass brain gets sad because there are not more funny shapes. Life is hard.
Too many vocal diet Nazis and tradcath larpers in the hobby
>>92614203I love Dr. Fate.
Too many leftists, women, nonwhites, fags, atheists and troons in the hobby
Too many tradcath leftists, women Nazis, nonwhite larpers, vocal fags and atheist diet troons in the hobby.
>>92621318Now that's an actually sensible take, seconding all of these
>>92621496d6s are aesthetic pleasing, are everywhere and have nice distribution. Stop sounding like a hipster.
>>92623630Man you aren't kidding.I tried to join a local table a few months ago and everyone was a thin blue line boot-licking racist piece of shit.How can you be a retarded half-nazi bible thumper AND pretend you are a fucking elf? It should be illegal.
>any minimalist game where the entire ruleset are just "make shit up cuz you are the GM"Nigga, If the entire point is to do it yourself, why even charge for it? I pay so I can have playtested and working rules made by people who know what they are doing.
>>92615350>rerolls matter moreYou mean "rerolls matter less"The swingier the dice, the more rerolls matter2d6 is less swingy than d20, so rerolls matter less
>>92624470Let me correct that for you:>How can you be a retarded half-nazi bible thumper? It should be illegal.
>>92614203>Millennials>Marvel quips every minute>Irish players (Annoying voices)>South London players >Grogs that act like TTRPGS peaked at dungeon slogs>Player the interrupt other players moments
>>92618429Are you implying GURPS is the only system that uses d6? Also, are we just not gonna acknowledge that GURPS is the superior framework for literally every game?
>>92630310I don't like GURPS' Infinite WorldsIt reminds me of Dr Troon
>>92621318>>Ttrpg is actually interesting enough to get my attention (i will never ever have the chance to run/play it with my current groups)that feel when that feel. I just wanna run pic related
>>92621496>d6s aren't polyhedralNigger a d6 has more than one side. Six in fact. That's why it's called a d-six. The fuck are you smoking?
>>92621318What would you say is "D&D but..."?Is it the use of 1d20 + Modifiers as its core resolution mechanic? The fact that it covers the same themes and actions as D&D despite using a different core mechanic? Is it just taking all of D&D and then slapping a different coat of paint or taking on some more bells and whistles and calling it something different? Or what?Asking because I'm making a game built off of D&D and I'm struggling with how to define it in a simple manner that doesn't sound like every other D&D clone. Makes me afraid that I'm making exactly that.
>thinking a "healthy secondary market" is a good thing for any kind of fucking game everFuck you goddamned paypig subhuman retards. Getting scalped by speculator investorfags is a horrendous thing and you should be hurling rocks at anyone enabling that shit. These fuckers overbuy every fucking card game or anything with the word collectible remotely attached to it and then you complain that it's so hard to find the shit you need, then praise the company for promoting artificial scarcity and overpay the scalpers who buy out the entire shipment and then sell it back to you as singles.>Bro a decent competitive deck is only like 150$!!I wish eternal destitution on you and all of your lineage.
>>92633677My group was 50/50 on wanting to play Power Rangers or another CthulhuTech adventure, so I ran a CthulhuTech with the setting wiped and made it Power Rangers.Painful, body horror mutations to don their suits. Telepathic links to biomechanical giants they could pilot into combat. An enemy who had been imprisoned by the previous people who use their suits, ten thousand years before them. Advice from a disembodied eldritch being and its mechanoid servitor. It was the most fun we've had in ages.
>>92614203>he doesn't play on tabletop sim>actual mental issues>he doesn't play on tabletop simthese problems are only problems inside your head.
>>92615202>>92615202What a complete pile of shit. Fuck off and die with your lies.
>>92634755I bet you think food comes from the supermarket, too.
>>92634755Economies of scale
>>92614203>game has meta currency that recharges per session>game also has encounter based resource managementWhy? One invalidates the other just choose a lane
>>92633761>polyhedral SETI guess you could try to learn to read huh.Fuckin' shit for brains.
>>92634572>Playing tabletop games onlineYeah good job lollmao.
>>92635060>>92635535If you think making a mold costs 200klol.lmao.What an idiot.
>>92635957It's not just the mold, retard. You also have to pay a design team to design the model. You have to pay workers to manufacture the model. You have to pay truckers to ship the models. You have to pay a marketing team to convince people to buy the models. You have to pay utilities for the facility where you make the models. You have to pay maintenance costs for said facility. You have to pay taxes.Are you starting to get it yet? The cost of the actual material to make the model isn't even close to being the only or largest part of the cost to get that model from the mind of the designer into your grubby little hands.
>>92636004Totally different anon here: 3d modeling and designing the model is actually the easiest part of the whole process. Turning it into something that can be CNC'd into an injection mold is a little bit more difficult, but it's a skillset that gets easier. The actual CNC'ing is where a lot of the cost comes from because you need some pretty specialized, heavy duty machinery to churn out industrial quality molds and those things will last over 1 million uses. Look that shit up. The ROI on getting injection molds made is insane in the long run. A couple thousand uses? Fuck off. That's objectively wrong. Even after a million uses, the wear and tear will be so minimal that they'll probably just clean the damn thing or repair and defects at the factory before using it for another million runs if they want to.Most of everything else is operational and production costs. Quibbling over the salary that the truck drive gets for dropping off a pallet or how much the water bill was at the machine shop where they did the milling whenever the machine operator left to go take a shit is not how these things are priced and calculated.
>>92615376If you have metal molds and plastic models, do the molds really wear out?Not disbelieving, but ignorant and surprised.
>>92636860He's making shit up. Literally just pulling numbers out of his ass and conflating a 2-part sprue mold with an industrial manufacturing multi-stage large machinery parts mold, and both of those things last way longer than 1,000 uses and do not cost 6 figures to repair.GW Paypigs are just fucking retarded and think that they are paying a fair price for something that are objectively and provably being price gouged on.
>>92634351>powerr rangers as cosmic horror oh fuck yeah that's cool
>>92636860The thing about miniature molds is they have very fine details to preserve and get pretty dumbass hot. A tiny bit of wear can completely ruin the appearance of a model, especially with the overdone CAD shit GW has been putting out lately. The other issue is that a lot of the measures that manufacturers of simpler, less detailed products can take would have an adverse impact on the level of detail that is needed in a miniature.As far as numbers go, we're all just spitballing because GW sure as fuck won't say, but they probably get 250k-500k clean runs from a mold, of which ~80% would pass what they laughably call quality control. A replacement would range from 20k-80k USD depending on how intricate the design is. The other up front cost is the labor of the sweaty nerd(s) "sculpting" the 3D model, which can take anywhere from a few weeks to years depending on how much they can copy paste from other models and how absolutely fucking unusable the first few drafts are from an engineering standpoint. I promise you GW has a rubbish bin full of broken Primaris Lieutenants with their half helm airsoft masks and Nerf guns tactically skipping off rubble, suspended only by the thing strands of purity seals and streams of Gamer Fuel.t. drunk chemical engineer (I design things that make glue)
>>92633963>What would you say is "D&D but..."?The usual heartbreaker, eg: pathfinder. Even non-d20 system games qualify, eg: gurps Dungeon Fantasy. Also the ones that put a "spin" to the original concept, eg: SotDL, Bunker & Baddasses, Lamentations of the Fire Princess, etc...>Is it the use of 1d20 + Modifiers as its core resolution mechanic?No, for example Stars Without Numbers has that and doesn't fall in the category for what concernes me.>The fact that it covers the same themes and actions as D&D despite using a different core mechanic?Yes, of course there are gradients, my standard deviation from d&d begins with something like wfrp, gurps Banestorm is another example of something close enough but out of the category. So as you can see i'm very arbitrary.>Is it just taking all of D&D and then slapping a different coat of paint or taking on some more bells and whistles and calling it something different?Basically>Asking because I'm making a game built off of D&D and I'm struggling with how to define it in a simple manner that doesn't sound like every other D&D clone. Makes me afraid that I'm making exactly that.He, do not mind me, don't be afraid of doing what you want, if it's good enough i will look into it, my definitions are more like picrel.
>>92614203>>High cost of TCGsthis>some reprint of old as fuck rpg>price higher than brand new one
>>92615350You're just low IQ or lack creativity. Label the dice A and B.Select the Ath prime, multiply Bth prime with 17 (7th prime)Add A + BEvery outcome is unique (by the fundamental theorem of prime factorization)In other words, out of this pool of numbers there's a 1/36th chance that you'll get a particular number.Label these numbers 1, ..., 36. Boom, problem solved.
>>92636900You can literally see the injection plates wearing out on high volume, low replacement kits like T'au Battlesuits - or did you think they were designed with soft edges and shallow details? And when the plate is replaced, you replace the entire plate - at the cost of, you guessed it, a brand new plate.These are 2007 numbers, so process have changed in the last seventeen years, but the actual cost to manufacture the Baneblade was a quarter of a million pounds per injection plate; and at the time, Games Workshop was stamping Baneblades in Nottingham, Memphis and Shanghai, so that's three quarters of a million pounds.Tooling - that is, using specialty industrial milling equipment to cut the steel blanks for your injection mold - is incredibly expensive. And that's on top of the cost of the equipment you need to actually use those injection plates. Yeah it's a couple cents worth of styrene pellets because the raw material is cheap at scale, but you're still talking about millions in capital investment that still needs to be paid for, and the ongoing expense of retooling when they wear out.But, yeah, GE paypigs are the ignorant ones.
>>92640444Anon it stands to reason that as one of the premier miniature gaming companies in the world, GW would be able to get the most returns from scale and most preferential rates on all processes involved in the making of their miniatures. To wit, there are no other companies that make the money they do making plastic, so they have the most money to spend on getting their plastic more affordably made.The question that I now have to pose to you regarding this business is: Why are their kits at least 40 percent more expensive than any comparable competitor's kits? Consider a box of tau Stealth Suits which retail for 35 USD. Battletech, now under the auspices of CGL sells packs of similar volume as force-packs, containing 4 fully assembled mechs for 25 USD. Are CGL just stupid? Are they losing money hand over fist? Does a GW kit containing two more models and a few options (on a technicality, as they are a drone and a glorified token) justify the price increase? How is it then that they can afford to be sold at a 20 markdown retail in brick and mortar hobby shops?Assuming GW doesn't have a dark magician in their employ magically keeping their equipment running longer and better than their competitors, how could their margins be tight when competitors are performing more labor intensive process and selling for less? If you said "they aren't, but their expenses are higher because they don't outsource to china" you'd actually be on to something. The fact is that GW plastic is more pricey, but that they slap a monsterous premium on top of it not only to cover that expense, but because the premium actually reasserts itself as an indicator of brand quality regardless of whether or not it is the case.The point then is that no industry is simple and prices can be whatever the market will bear. What's insulting is to have business attempt to extract even more value out of sales when the golden goose is fucking vitamin deficient from all the fucking eggs its laying,
>>92614203My biggest issues with TCGs (besides the fact I'm just a helpless sucker for them) is that they have all have a firm timeline for when they will suck assSure, any long running franchise is bound to suck ass down the line, but TCGs seem particularly good at reaching that point quickly by design. They can improve but once the damage is done it usually sticks around.
>>92640694That's objectively not what we're arguing. The price of any product is explicitly whatever its buyer is willing to pay for it - because if it doesn't sell, it's effectively negative value to the seller because it cost money to make; and that's compounded in a vertically integrated supply chain like Games Workshop, where they design, manufacture, distribute and sell their own products thereby absorbing the cost of every step of the value proposition for any product which does not sell.The argument is, "A company prints off these minis thousands at a time for pennies[.]" This is simply not true, there are more costs involved than the pennies worth of raw material that goes into the end of the manufacturing process - every preceding element of the manufacturing also has to be taken into account.Bringing it down to a consumer scale for context, imagine that you own a 3d printer - a radical proposition, I know. That printer cost $500 to buy. You print one model, it costs $0.03 cents of resin. We won't account for the cost of your time to set up or post process, nor the actual time to print and just go with the concrete dollar values.Congtatulations! You just spent $500.03 on a model. A little steep, so let's try and defray that cost by printing a second model.Now you have two $250.06 models. Not quite there, yet - we're gonna have to really start cranking them out if we expect to hit that "pennies" per model notion that OP is so focused on.And, oh, bad news. Your screen burnt out. Gonna have to replace it. But you got a cheap printer and it's not a replaceable module... that'll be another $500, please.See where I'm going with this? The same phenomenon is at play in the commercial manufacturing space, just at a different scale. It's specifically to address clowns like >>92635957, who seem to think that there's no such thing as manufacturing costs. That's an altogether different discussion than, "GW's markup is too high and I take that personally."
>>92640792Your math and conception of manufacturing is so fucking retarded it's a wonder you can type in full sentences.If you buy a $500 3d printer, you now own that printer forever. Operation and running the machine is absolutely negligible, and if used correctly, will allow for countless prints. More importantly, the cost of running the printer is offset by the alternative of paying someone else to make it for you, like GW. If I can print 50 minis for a couple bucks, I can also offset the cost I would have spent buying those 50 minis from someone like GW, who would ask for thousands of dollars, because "tooling" or whatever retarded excuse you're trying to formulate.
>>92640867Machines do not last forever. You own the printer until it breaks down and needs to be replaced as part of the lifecycle cost of the equipment. That's clearly accounted for in the hypothetical example, above. The "absolutely negligible" cost of running it is not, because it is negligible - nobody's all tangled up in the cost of electricity to power your printer, water to wash your prints, or the actual dollar value of the time spent using the equipment because they're not relevant to the analogy; it is simply an illustration that there are back end capital investments involved in the manufacturing process even at the consumer scale of hobby printing. This isn't even Econ 101, it's just common sense - it costs money to make things, and those costs have to be accounted for somewhere. You don't even need to take my word for it, Formlabs has a great write-up of what the costs of injection molding at scale are. https://formlabs.com/blog/injection-molding-cost/
>>92640792While true the principle holds that unless their labor costs are somehow 50% or greater than any other competing company (which would make no sense given their position in the industry) a significant portion of the markup has to be going to factors other than manufacturing. If a 100,000 dollar steel mold is used only 100,000 times, the cost per unit is only a dollar. GW doesn't publish any numbers that don't get the shareholders hard, so units produced or sold doesn't hit a google search, but knowing their proliferation and their existing price and that a plastic injection mold can operate for anywhere from tens to hundreds of thousands of shots (or on to a million and beyond) we have to conclude the cost per sprue cannot be massive, a few dollars/pounds I would guess and not more than half the retail price of the model to account for the costs of storing and moving inventory, marketing, packaging, labor and so on.To wrap this up: You'll find a lot of ignorance floating around any industry and I share your frustration, even ones far more transparent, but signs within both their financials and the behavior of other players in the industry suggest that as a product, GW miniatures enjoy substantial, even obscene margins. "Plastic is Pennies" may not tell the whole truth and "Dies cost Dollars" may be an important caveat, but I will throw in with the rabble and say "A 10 man tactical squad costs 60 dollars today when it cost 30 dollars in 2005." with the only caveat being "they updated the sculpt last in 2016 and it was 40 bucks then".Plastic, people will point out, has gone up about double in price in the same time, but we've already established that at a couple bucks a pound at most, the plastic is not the lion's share of manufacturing costs.
>>92641024Bro, I own several 3d printers. I started with the Ender 3, got a 2nd one to print more stuff simultaneously. 3 years later I got a Prusa MK3+ because I wanted to try autoleveling. In this time I had to replace the belt on one of my Enders, periodically change out the extruder nozzles, and that's it. Recently I picked up the Anycubic Kobra Max 2, so that I could make extra-large prints. Now admittedly, they're all FDM and I don't use them to print plastic men because I hate wargaming and wargamers, but I absolutely use it for essentially small-business scale manufacturing. If I wanted to make cheap-o plastic toy soldiers I 100% could and it would cost me fucking pennies.
>>92641076So you acknowledge that you have to pay lifecycle costs to maintain your equipment but you refuse to account for it on your balance sheet. Noted.
>>92641024>"it's just common sense">has been saying wildly retarded things this whole time>posts an article that contradicts everything he's saying and isn't even about the same kind of injection moldingBuddy, just let it go. You've been talking out your ass this whole time and your point that "things cost money" isn't the same argument you were making about GW needing to spend millions of dollars on molds that wear out after a thousand uses that need to be replaced for a quarter mil every time.A machining company won't quote 100k for manufacturing services and then tack on another 150k to account for the yearly salary of every employee involved, cost of machinery, and every other production cost involved in the entire process, which is what it sounds like you're trying to do. Bandai produces plastic models with greater complexity, detail, parts count, volume of material and global distribution than GW and their products are cheaper, better quality, and still improving. You're trying to rationalize passing the cost of production along to the consumer despite every step of the production process advancing greatly and becoming cheaper to manufacture, repair, and replace.
You can really tell who's never signed the front of a check in this thread.
>>92641486Who the fuck still uses checks in 2024?
>>92614203I don't hate games. I play the ones I like and can afford or pirate. Life's much easier this way. Don't feel forced to consoom, just play whatever you can afford and enjoy.
>>92641502Case in point.
>>92614203I'm a nogame as long as Star Wars is involved but I like to dig for fresh game design ideas. Anyway I did read a game review of SW Shatterpoints recently and it looks like:-They switched the cool "gamble your initiative vs number of models activable" trade-off for a bland as fuck "draw a token to know what to activate".-There's a meta-currency system taked on.-There's yet another extra layer of game within the game for counting Victory Points by pushing tokens towards a threshold.-They included special dices because who doesn't like being dependents to this kind of proprietary shit eh?It's just surface-level but those changes for the sake of change made me totally uninspired. Never tried it but felt like Legion was genuinely good.
>>92638811Thanks! You seem reasonable. It's when the system's mechanics and themes lean in strongly on navigating dungeons as a critical part of its mechanics that you put it into heartbreaker territory. Meanwhile, something like d20 Modern (despite its numerous flaws as a game system) isn't a heartbreaker because its themes aren't around dungeon-crawls.
>>92614203>>''This TTRPG only uses 6 sided diceThis is based. Polyhedral dice gore is lame and gimmicky. Also d6 makes for the best dice towers.
>>92641486Tell us all about your business experience. I'm sure you know all about running a machine shop and doing all the accounting and payroll.
>>92641701>He thinks it's about business savvyLol
>>92621318>Ttrpg uses proprietary propsI am semi okay with this but thats cause I like L5R 5th/Genesys. But good luck now that those games/systems are going under and the dice are impossible to find.
>Class based system that prioritizes stats to be effective>Pass/Fail vs. Degrees of Failure or similarFuck both of these. Also inb4>HYTNPDNDYes. Its precisely why I know I hate them, but good luck getting your average normie or casual to try anything that isnt DND
Just stop paying for poorly made dogshit. I've played ttrpgs for ten years and I've never paid a single dime for materials, you can use your imagination, it's 100% free.
>>92640095I enjoyed this comment
>>92641851Heh, looks like you failed to account for the costs of the pencils, paper, dice, chairs, computers, beers, pretzels, hookers, weed, cocaine, houses, and Lovense Hush Bluetooth Buttplugs you used throughout the ttrpg playing process. It's okay, not everyone keeps track of this stuff, but try not being retarded next time.
>>92641738You clearly don't have any of that either, but at least you're consistently retarded.
>>92633677I was blue ranger, my group died because apparently there was some infighting on the day I missed the session (My dad had to go to hospital because of cancer), cool game, but the weapons are kinda trash if your gm forces you with the average weapon, you're basically required to have some skill points into something like Might/Finesse if you want to actually be able to hit your enemies, and you also *need* to have points in conditioning or else you can unironically get one shotted by a motherfucking putty.>>92621318>>Ttrpg is actually interesting enough to get my attention (i will never ever have the chance to run/play it with my current groups)Real, my irl friends only play 5e and playing online is a hassle because it's just Americans who wants to play what I want to play (I live in Europe)
