There is no point is optimizing/powergaming because the GM will just make the game harder.
>>92621552What if I WANT the game to be harder?
It's not about outdoing the GM, it's about outdoing other players.
>>92621552if a player has a min-max or powered PC, i generally enjoy setting traps or objects to absolutely murder them. you'd be surprised how easily a rope bridge or catwalk can remove these PCs for you, allowing for the fun to begin for everyone
>>92621552Optimizing is fun when you take bad concepts and squeeze the juice as hard as possible so you can just barely be as good or slightly better than other PCsMinmaxing to break the game is just a fun math experiment and is ultra gay in actual play
>>92621552That's fine.
>>92621614Hell yeah brother.>>92621552I'm way too autistic, like real saw multiple doctors for it autistic, to not optimize the fuck out of my characters in games that allow for it. I enjoy combat as a resource management and strategy puzzle, I've even learned to enjoy roleplaying as a narrative puzzle. But what I love the most is creating the most absolutely busted characters I can as an optimization puzzle. When we step away from CoC7E to play Shadowrun 3E or D&D 3.5 the rest of the group comes to me and I create progression outlines for them all to follow.
>>92621693Unironically. the thing is to make sure either everyone is doing it or noone is. Because some people being optimised for a hard game and others not being sucks.
>>92621552I'll make things harder based on the intended progression of the game.When my party enters the more difficult zones, they'll encounter the more difficult challenges, and as time passes, the main antagonists of the game will slowly encroach more land.I don't need to artificially make things more difficult, because everything is baked into the game.
>>92621797No one’s impressed by your “sandbox”
>>92621552I don't know if you've met any role players, but most of them don't actually know the rules of the games they play.
>>92621552I fucking WISH the DM would make the game harder. My party plays like retards and we still steamroll everything because the DM doesn't know to challenge us without just resorting to mob-spam or bullet-sponges.
>>92621818I am. I want to hear all about his sandbox.>>92621797Infodump your entire game right fucking now.
>>92621552I optimise my character to save the poor sods in my party who couldn't make their characters less optimised if they tried.We fought two shield guardians and a swarm of animated armours a few sessions ago as a group of five lv4's. We would have all died if I didn't step in to save us from a party member's stupid decision.
>>92621552I'd rather die fighting a dragon than some shit goblin.
>>92621893Then how can they call them games?
>>92621552Yes but I will also get to do the one cool thing I optimized for at least once.
>>92621552I optimise because I want to see a better calibre of enemy, boyo.
>>92621691>Minmaxing to break the game is just a fun math experiment and is ultra gay in actual playEspecially considering that most people who do it these days are just following some gay guide on reddit.
>>92621552I'm that one guy that minmaxes but only uses my full power level when the rest of my team starts to get their ass kicked.
>>92622636I fucking hate this. Especially when I hear some tard I'm playing with spout shit he obviously heard from a youtuber or saw on a guide.No original thoughts of their own and will often misunderstand how their own abilities work because they never actually read them.
If I learnt something from trying to GM for minmax/powergamers is: If you try to do something challenging, they'll complain. If you try to do something out the scope of their action, they'll complain.If you try to do anything that doesn't involve them one-shotting the challenge in front of them, they'll complain. Best thing you can do is kill them off or filter these players out of your game.
>>92621736>autistics are literally failed humans We know
>>92622669In my experience the GM just flat forces you to ride on the railroad no matter how smart or powered up you are.
Why don't you make THIS harder *unzips dick*
>>92621552In fact, I'll argue that optimization and powergaming only has detrimental effects in that it punishes those that don't do it and forces the GM into a rocket-tag competition to enforce any semblance or threat of difficulty or struggle.Optimization should only have one purpose, and that's to make concepts that are or should be mechanically sub-par into mechanically viable.>>92621736>progression outlines for others to follow."People" like you belong on a cross.
>>92622669>If you try to do something challenging, they'll complain.I do this, but for the other players at the table who aren't as optimised as I am. It basically becomes by job to babysit everyone else because the DM can't balance their game properly.
>>92621552in my experience the gm just ends up getting annoyed that challenge rating isn’t accurate anymore and switches to 5e
>>92622289It's just that autist who is "working on his game" that he'll never finish.Just ignore him.
>>92621552... that's the point, dummkopf
>>92622731One thing a fellow GM did for his powergamer player is giving him a solo challenge while other players did the average challenge. It's a good strategy, but not every GM is that benevolent.I'm certainly not.
>>92621552Incorrect.1. Even if DMs make things harder, you get to fight cooler stuff2. Sometimes power gamers/optimal parties have simply overpowered my enemies/content/challenge. I tried to make things tougher, but I am also trying to keep things consistent with the world, and so the smart optimized players and party have simply crushed things. Not saying that as a bad thing. 3. In some campaigns it fits nicely, if people are big dick, they get to be big dick and just bully people, that's fun. I've done that before, where once PCs scaled up they just started bullying people hardcore and getting shit done, with the occasional tougher fight where their enemies try to counter-punch, but they have to really plot and gather resources to challenge them.
>>92622861Not always true. Sometimes instead of anything cooler you just get the same guys with bigger numbers. Had one GM say this direct.
>>92622926Yeah, but this comes down to your DM/Campaign/Players and those are the variables where anything *could* be true.But in this case, I assume there are powergamers or I'm the power gamer and then I assume I'm dming or it's a DM I've played with before, and then the 3 things I posted are outcomes that have happened.
>>92622749Given that I've been working on prepping a sandbox campaign for a few weeks now and have mentioned it a couple times in threads - there are at least two of us doing a sandbox thing.>that he'll never finish.Depends what you prep. I'm not going to manually stock hundreds of hexes. But I'll build some custom tables to plug into Hex Describe to generate a map (other people have shared their setups that you could just use, I just want it to do something specific), and then customise some of them manually. Its not so hard to make random tables for your wild animals / lairs / tracks. Then build some faction write-ups. You prep very different things, sure, (improv tools), but it's not really more work than writing a railroad campaign, especially with the software tools available these days.If you think nobody can prep a sandbox, I can only conclude your GM abilities are just reading the next room page of a dungeon crawl while your players deal with the previous room. And that's rough, buddy.
>>92622669My experience is that, but also>wow, all these fights have been way too easy, where's the challenge?
>>92622669In my experience players who are ardently anti-minmaxing always throw massive tantrums when their shitty character inevitably eats shit because they fell off the chandelier they were trying to dramatically swing on or whatever.
>>92621736You could try to avoid this by limiting yourself by focusing on a ”theme”. Like if you build a caster character, do optimize him, but around a limited theme, like only fire magic or only enchantment/charm spells.
>>92622669I learned something different: if they minmax something to the point of trivialising it, they're not usually telling you "I want to do even harder things in this category", they're generally telling you "I *really* don't want to deal with this part of the game and want to skip it enough that I have heavily invested in being able bypass it.">AC so high nothing anyone else can fight will hurt meMeans>"I want a game where I just can't die, full stop, even if I have to be shit at everything else."At this point if I see such a min-maxed character, I ask them outright if they're trying to avoid that part of the game, or if they overturned themselves by accident and just wanted to be good at it.
>>92621552It brings people psychic pleasure to outperform others, because winning is fun. But in a game of largely random chance with simple tactics, the only way to excel through skill is by understanding and employing the game's mechanics optimally.When I played 40k back in the day I used to have a joke that I was like Pegasus form Yugioh, I could bring a child in and let him run my army with fewer than 20 words of instruction and they could still win 75% of the time. This is because as the IG, 40k is not a tactical game but a logistical one. So what I enjoyed wasn't even playing the game, it was building the lists, and this is what powergaming is essentially.Part of the reason "balance" became such a topic in games over the last 20 years is that TTRPGs are very young in terms of developmental history, and we have no real answers to the question of balance yet because a different version of the game exists in the head of every player, and this -cannot- be standardized. Attempts to do so have uniformly failed. This is why internet-tools and computer assistance is now being emphasized, because that allows for constant reinforcement and modification of the game's core ideas, not for some sinister purpose but in the name of balance.The ultimate result of this process will be a constantly-updating live-service tabletop game with constant patch notes like vidya and it will still not work because nobody cares. The same people who ruined the golden age of D&D by Yukkuri-speak squealing and screeching and whining about balance until we got the KEK TRASH that was 4e will be lining up to support this faggotry too, even though it will never work and they will never get "balance" just like they will never get gay luxury communism or be women.
>>92623217I have seen that also. There are people who are only there for the roleplay, which is fine but you got to remember this is also a game and you should be doing at least a little bit of learning how to play the game instead of just making meme gimmick builds. What bugs me the most is when they just expect the GM to bail them out of trouble when they make stupid choices. The stereotype with people who min max being they don't care about the roleplay, which is true in some cases but as long as they are not ruining the fun of everyone else by being a murderhobo or throwing their weight around I don't see a problem with it. Sometimes if you even start using military tactics or dungeon crawl tactics that is also considered min maxxing and depending on the GM they will just shut that down right away because they didn't account for such things. So now its bad to do strong meta builds and you are shut down for smart thinking.
If your character is mechanically inept, then incompetence will be his sole defining trait. Nobody will ever give a shit about any other fluff you've ascribed to him.
>>92621552As a Player, I like optimizing so I can play dumbass toolbox characters that does stuff the rest of the party don't, alongside the cool bits I do wanna play.As a GM, I fucking wish my players optimized anything. I gave up on the average retard and I just give them almost 50% extra [chargen points] just for the sake of them being competent rather than nerfing themselves by picking stupid shit. And even then, I had players that can fail average rolls on their specialty. At this point, I feel the only good choice is asking for concepts from the Players, building their sheets and letting them tinker with them a bit. Or just pre-gens.
>>92623313Balance in anything should never be the end all be all. Things that put balance 1st above more important concepts always blow.That said 4e is fun
>>92623313You seem like you understand things very well. Balance is a spook. It's impossible to make every mechanic in your game balanced so the best you can do is make a mechanic thrive in specific environments and circumstances. Different builds and tools that you use can be seen as a difficulty slider. The only time that balance should be considered is when a couple of easy to use strategies or easy access tools like D&D 5E magic completely overwhelms and dominates the game, especially in this realm of co-op or PvP games because seeing the same fight play out over and over again is boring. And the worse thing is, as you said yourself, you are going to get games now because of being online will get constant rebalance and patch updates, no doubt due to the influence and pressure of people. You see this in vidya all the time, a group of loudmouths, usually e-celebs, cry how this thing threatens their top meta and needs a nerf, or how something is weak and needs a buff but in reality is actually really strong. In video games the rules are updated right away and you are forced to play that, in bored games though if rules keep on changing nobody is going to bother to keep up with it.
>>92623233Nah. We're enjoying ourselves, and since we have a different GM for each system nobody feels like they're left out of the fun.>>92622683>>92622721Rent a hooker to touch your penis. You'll have less unfocused rage and better opinions about life.
>>92623321I'm mostly speaking for myself here, but in my experience, minmaxers and powergamers tend to also be the best roleplayers at the table as well. You do sometimes get guys who are nothing but stat-sticks, but generally the amount of investment in the game correlates with the quality of roleplay.
>>92623654I have seen that sentiment a lot and I agree with it. I think it has to do with how good roleplay creates self restraint so somebody who is minmaxxed knows when to step up and when to hold back for other people to play and enjoy the game. Honestly I have seen a lot more shitty min maxxers who don't know how to play the game at all only get by because they constantly badger the GM for stuff.
>>92623236I believed that as well, anon, but when I tried to do something not on their scope of action, they complained (like I said on my post). I put social challenge for physical-focused minmax players and they still complained. There's nothing much to do at this point for me.
>>92623791I know how you feel. People want a social driven game only to just roll for resolution or cast spells. People want combat only to not even us focus fire or you are lucky if people even hand out buffs to one another. People want exploration only to not prepare for the journey and not head warnings that the shortcut is dangerous to use and nearly get TPK'd.
>>92623791Yeah, at that point you just have someone who doesn't even want to play a game. I don't think that's all of them, but I can see it being a chunk of them. For now, I will stick to talking to them about what they made and why, but I will also make sure I ask the about what they're looking to get out of the game and how they would respond to a situation or two.But, ultimately we're both talking about filtering out problem and mismatched players, I'm just adding another step to the filtering of problem players to try to eliminate false positives.
>>92621552Gygax says: power gamers are dorks.
>>92624569Gygax is right here but for the wrong reason, and that reason being is that Gygax just enjoyed fucking over his players at every opportunity and being mechanically stronger would prevent being fucked over from happening some of the time.
>>92624620>>92624569I think this more speaks to the earlier editions where much of how you did actually did depend on (you) as the player making good and crafty decisions, not what your character sheet said they could do.
>>92624674I understand that, hence why I said Gygax is right but for the wrong reasons. RPG's should have always been about the choices you make and not what numbers you rolled. That can be seen with how social interactions worked and the original idea that HP was not meat points and how assassins can instantly kill equal and lower level characters. Even in great myths and legends like Hercules a number of problems were solved through thinking such as cleaning the stables with flood water or dealing with the cyclops in the odyssey. I blame video games for popularizing higher numbers to solve issues and this original concept of thinking your solutions through is the main reason why balance is a spook for ttrpgs.
In 5e optimising gives you more to do, so not doing it just makes your character fucking boring to play.Imagine:>doing nothing with your bonus action>doing nothing with your reaction>only having access to the basic character attack optionsWhat? The DM is going to use cooler monsters?!? Don't reward me too much
>>92624811presumably OP is talking about a good edition of the game
I don't think there's many things worse than powergamers. Reducing an inherently imaginative, creative hobby like wargaming or ttrpgs into maximized efficiency not only ruins them, it's actively working in spite of their real appeal, role play and creative gameplay. If you can name your last characters "build" but not their personality, or show your army's 17th point efficiency revision but not the last time you played a themed game, you're the cancer killing the hobby. Well, the cancer that's on the inside at least.Go play factorio or edit train wikipedia articles.
>>92621552So your saying in I intentionally make my character absolutely shit, the GM will make the game easier. I've found they gaming them GM is so much more effective than gaming the rules.
>>92624674>>92624765The game that came before blackmoor was basically a larp. The creator the creator described the first death in a role playing game occurring when a person playing a military officer and a young dave arneson approached him during the game and said "what are the rules for fighting a duel?" And he said "you're a career military officer, roll 3d6, you're a student who fences, you roll 2d6" and then arneson's student got skewered. That game was about achieving goals through social interaction with other characters, they didn't even have stats, just rulings about dice made up on the spot when it was called for.In the same book I pulled that quote from Gygax says that it is ideal, but more difficult, if as a GM you increase the challenge as player skill increases (not character power) not by just making the monsters more powerful but by making the situations they find themselves in more complex in general. Gygax actually defined being "good" at role playing games as being good not just at the tactical part but at reading the room, adjusting your play to the social milieu of the group, meeting genre expectations, contributing creatively to group storytelling, supporting the GM, working as a group to deal with problem players, making decisions in character, and having fun. But I guess cool spells and character classes is what sold books and magazines.
>>92624811Aside from how powerful magic is the other reason why people only play spellcasters because its the only interaction you get to do in the game.
>>92624935I always thought that game balance should be catered to how players behave and not what their stats are. Too many "easy encounters" ended up being difficult because the players had no idea what they were doing.
>>92623236If a character has a super high AC they typically want to be targeted in place of the other players
>>92623323Based and correct
>>92621552Depends on the system. Shadowrun for example is basically just a "build porn" game where half the fun is in autistically optimizing every minute detail of your character.I do agree that for many RPG's powergaming is essentially pointless though. I've noticed that the sort of people who tend to do it in every game they play are usually the type who clearly wants to be competitive in some sense but either lacks the skill or the spine to actual play any sort of proper head-to-head competitive game.
>>92624569>>92624620>>92624674>>92624765>>92624935>>92625028If you read the Gygax post again you'll see he mentions system mastery as the ultimate goal and nobody knows the system better than genuine powergamers. Fake youtube build scrubs get bodied and that's a good thing.Also this fucker let people play as dragons.
>>92621552The GM can't do shit, actually. He needs to keep the game events believable AND entertaining to the players, and the more powerful their characters, the harder it is to make things more challenging for them in a believable fashion.
>>92625028Honestly I'm not that interested on running games focused on tactical combat any more, I think I got burnt out running a dnd 3.5 game for 8 players. Plus I noticed that I personally find them boring to run compared to playing a wargame where we have an agreed upon point limit and I can actually go hard and try to win. But the problem I always had was that making encounters harder by making the monsters more threatening isn't an option that scales well. Either you end up with hp bloat and a boring punching bag or a monster that just ganks a PC every turn. Adding more enemies can really fuck things up if they have ranged attacks. 20 bandits with bows are going to turn at least 1 PC in to a pincushion before they get an opportunity to even interact with the situation which feels like the opposite of the whole point, 20 bandits with swords is just going to be a traffic jam. I always found that with a sufficiently large party a combat situation essentially needed to be a puzzle or situation that required some sort of decisive action to resolve: a cabal of necromancers raising skeletons and commanding them in formation to protect their leader performing a ritual was one I tried early on. Breakthroughs, retreats, sneak attacks on camps. That sort of thing ended up being the only path to interesting and challenging encounters to such a big group.
>>92625124Gygax doesn't mean "good at the rules" when he says mastery, the point of that whole book is saying that being good at navigating the social activity of role playing is the goal.
>>92625255>the point of that whole book is saying that being good at navigating the social activity of role playing is the goalThat's a parallel game
>>92625124>Also this fucker let people play as dragons.with hard RP restrictions and XP debt and trusted his players that being a dragon would make sense in game. The autistic fuck made it a rule so you couldn't enslave good aligned dragons.
>>92625236Use abstractions like enemy stacks or present choices to the players like flank left or hold ground that will give bonuses and determine the resolution from there
>>92625326Take it up with the guy who wrote it. He wrote a book called "role playing mastery" where he says very clearly that being a team player, wanting your players to succeed, having a healthy attitude toward the GM-player relationship, dealing with bullies and other problem players well, entertaining the other people at the table, and fostering a social environment people want to come back to are vital elements of mastering role playing.Actually he makes it clear that he doesn't consider combat to be a role playing. He says that a game that is just rules for combat isn't a role playing game, and that a game with no combat rules are overemphasizing the role playing to the exclusion of the gaming.
>>92625400Calling out shitty players and punishing them is a lost art and would fix 90% of problems today in the hobby.
>>92625140>New Bad guy comes along>Uses power communism spell>Everyone is back on your par again>He thanks you for your ward work at being ab exp wagie then leavesProblem solved.
>>92625480>Players leave because you're a retard
>>92625520Tragic, but there have certainly been lamer ways to end the campaign.
>>92621552I don't do it because it makes my character powerful, I do it because it is fun to optimize for random things. Half the time my character isn't really powerful at all. For example, having a comically high bonus to initiative is nice, but it's not like that's really that useful.
>>92625860>>but it's not like that's really that useful>casts synaptic static
>>92626003Yeah, sure, you could have a +40 bonus to initiative. Or you could have only +10 and have a save DC that isn't shit.
>>92625860A friend wanted to run dnd 5e a little while ago and I made a character with the mechanical intention that I roll as few dice as possible.
>>92626114How low did you get it?
>>92621648>If I just autokill anyone who cares about the mechanics of the game it totally makes the game more fun for everyone else
>>92621552As a forever GM here this is hardly the cut and dry of it. Very rarely is the entire party powergaming, and if that is the case the players obviously enjoy mechanics first and foremost and the GM's method of running the game should scale in accordance with that. Interesting and complex boss fights and room for optimization/prep time being fine examples of that. In my experience though, it's almost always just one or two guys. You can't scale the entire campaign up because everyone else in the game is playing either normal or purposefully shit suboptimal characters, and if you raise the stakes they'll just be floundering around like trout in the Sahara. Most RPG systems are held together with wacky glue and cum anyhow and often end up breaking under their own weight after a couple months of playtime, and deliberately pushing against and testing the limits of such shoddy scaffolding is just asking for shit to break. It's a role playing hobby. If you want to optimooooooze then go play a fucking video game you ADHD stimming sped, I have collaborative story telling to get back to.
>>92626158You fucking joke but I actually played with a GM that would do exactly fucking that and then get upset that he was left with people acting retarded all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjdl2Yp6rxkOp pics reminded me of this
>>92625124Sure. Why not. I haven had a player ask to play a dragon yet but I would allow it. I've allowed a treant, a frost giant, a tressym, and a mezzoloth. So long as they're level appropriate, they can go nuts. Not an insignificant part of why I prefer 3.x. The monsters have everything you need to make them playable, even of the ECLs are not well calibrated (GiTP ECL reassignment projects are a thing though)
>>92624569That's the exact opposite of what he's saying.He's saying powergame through knowing the core rules well and exploiting them, not through trying to get the DM to accept your homebrew like a loser.
>>92623458>sperg employs muh dick defense Compelling. I’m thankful in knowing that should human civilization survive, genetic engineering will solve the insufferable autismo problem forever.
>>92621552I had a DM that would single out the power gamer and would constantly find ways to separate that player from the group and make him have much harder fights solo. He made it clear that on inspection no proof of any battle could be found on his person. So we teased him that it was all in his characters mind and he eventually stopped coming.
>>92621552min/maxxers are the hasidics of the /tg/ world cmm.
>>92623233why would he want to? He's winning.Some people don't enjoy the game for the same reasons you do.
>>92621552Powergaming is not about making the game easier, it's for people who enjoy the optimization and difficult decision-making in a game.
>>92623142I'm the so-called "autist", and yeah, I admit my game isn't done, and all I have written down are the basic parts of character generation; the general ability types a hero character can have, the weapons, and how to randomly generate her magical attunement & strength ratings.As far as what I have planned that's relevant to the thread, the build autism that OP is denigrating is encouraged by level-up investment in abilities and coin investment in upgrading equipment despite their random selection at hero-gen.The further away from domesticated lands the hero and her party goes, the more dangerous the monsters become, and the higher likelihood of encountering undead, demons, and interplanars. But it's all by choice, to a certain degree. Every dungeon explored offers loot and levels, yes, but also ticks down encroachment timers at random for each of those previously mentioned incursive forces.I'm not going to make my "overworld" hex based, but the dungeons or other points of interest will be put into zones on the overworld map (also randomly generated).It's also going to be a solo game, so it's kinda silly for people to be getting mad about something they aren't ever going to encounter, regardless of how autistic it is.
>>92627545So many words just to say you're a nogame.
>>92627545If its a solo game, just grab shit that's been published and generate it procedurally as you go. Where's the fun in knowing whats there?
>>92624833D&D, like /b/, was never good>Buh muh AD&D2e>Muh BECMI>Muh Moldvay>Muh B/X
>>92626989yeah, that's the wayif you don't understand your character isn't more important than the other players' characters, narratively or mechanically, regardless of how better you are than them at understanding the game, you're out of my game
>>92627778yeah but it sure has became worse
>>92621552Yes, I will, but I will also buff the less optimized characters more.
>>92621552>There is no point is optimizing/powergaming because the GM will just make the game harder.Bro I've been trying.But it's getting harder and harder.For fuck's sake, my Pathfinder group is only level 12 now and they already are blowing the fuck out of encounters that, if I actually added up their total XP, would be like EL 16 or 17. Without even being tired out honestly. It's so retarded. How many level 15 sorcerers actually exist in the fucking world? it doesn't matter. Unless I build hyper-optimized greater-invisible death-spell spamming retarded shit to powerkill them, I can hardly even hurt them. I have counted on one hand the number of satisfying challenging encounters I have made for them after they hit level 5. The game literally ends there. I know why epic6 exists now.
>>92623458>if you don't let disgusting prostitutes touch your penis, you're raging and unfocused!!!!!Tell me more about how you were molested as a child or whatever, rabbi.
>>92621552There is no point in not optimizing/powergaming because the GM won't make the game easier.
>>92627560It is a structure of rules that challenge the player skill and luck when run without the influence of bias, so it's a game.>>92627651Because if it's published content, I'll just be wasting time looking for freebies, downloading them, and going through pieces to see what I'll have to rewrite and convert to my game for the sake of balance.I don't need MORE unnecessary delays to my progress, FFS.
>>92621552I made a char with 50 str in PF1e, but didn't pick power attack nor magic items that granted me +X to str o +X to hit/damage. How about that?
>>92626140I played a warlock and only used spells that altered the terrain or caused saving throws. I had to roll damage for my attack cantrip (mind sliver or something like that I think) but that was it.
>>92628481Stop projecting, and play more games.
>>92624620This is categorically false, and I have no idea why you feel this urge to malign a dead man again and again anon, but you should probably take your meds.>>92624569And as usual, Gygax was correct.>>92625140The GM can do what he wants.And it's not merely "more powerful", it's that min-maxing and powergaming goes against the sporit and integrity of the game(s), and doesn't engage with the core of the game in earnest, resulting in a host of issues relating to the assumptions in play, the suspension of disbelief, and just reasonable math visavi expected outcomes.
>>92628548>The GM can do what he wants.No he can't. He needs to convince the players that what he's doing is reasonable or they'll leave.>it's that min-maxing and powergaming goes against the sporit and integrity of the game(s), Wrong.
>>92621552Wrong.
>>92625480>>92625520>players cheer because powergaming retard was ruining it for everyone>powergaming retard leaves in a fit of seething rageFirst successful use of Power Word Communism, probably. Usually it'd just starve everyone to death.
>>92628565>No he can't.Wrong. Objectively.>Wrong.Also wrong, again objectively.Man, you're really on an idiot-roll here.Stay mad and die mad.
>>92628574>seething GM composes a cope narrative in his own head to make himself feel better about his players ditching his shitty game
>>92628583Correct. Objectively. If the players leave, the GM has no power over anything beyond his own dick.
>>92628505So do you just not understand what projection is, oor...?
>>92626158>>If I just autokill anyone who cares about the mechanics of the game it totally makes the game more fun for everyone elseCorrect.
>>92621552No I don't, enemies are made to what is appropriate to the area and circumstance, so sometimes the player characters are completely untouched and sometimes they get the shit stomped out of them depending on their choices. I'm not running a Bethesda game over here.
>>92628584I'm not even a GM, schizo. Or at least not currently. And when I have GM'd, nobody has ever left. This doesn't change how things are or how they work. Objective reality doesn't bend to any pf this. A GM can do what he wants and there is nothing you can do about it except cope and seethe and piss and shit and leave, and you, even through that autistic crust and shell, know full well that no-one else is going to go with you when you throw a bitchfit over how your white-room theorycrafted black-hole-punching verisimilitude-breaking faggotry isn't "viable" anymore.
>>92628618>more cope narrativeNot even reading the whole thing.
>>92628588You already told us you're mad, you can stop saying "nuh-uh" already. Objective reality isn't going to change. The GM can always and forever do what he wants. Cope with it.
>>92628618The incompetent fucks who you enable are 50000x more verisimilitude breaking than an optimized PC.
>>92628626I accept your concession and you may now leave.
>>92628633The GM can't do shit if the players leave. His only "power" is entirely dependent on their approval. That makes the GM the players' bitch.You can't disprove this logic and it's making you shit your diaper in rage.
>>92628638>going full schizoAlright, time for bed, Timmy.Take your meds and hop to it, hands on the cover.
>>92628640Concede some weight.
>>92628643>The GM can't do shitStill objectively wrong.The GM can do what he wants.This will never ever change no matter how much you screech over it.
>>92628651>NPC broke down and started looping
>>92626989Honestly that sounds like a hilarious running joke. The idea that the party muscle is so good at his job everyone else is thinking he's blowing hot air with the boasts of what he dealt with. I feel like a really great moment could have happened later with that shame he left.
>>92626989>dedicating chunks of the session to a specific player to "discourage" themnogames dream up the funniest shit
>>92628548>This is categorically falseI guess you never bothered to read any of his books or else you would have realized this with how many instant kill attacks and soul rending gotcha traps that specifically states can't be undone even with a wish spell. I respect the man but I would absolutely not want to play a game with a man that specifically hides mechanics from his players like with the poisoner assassins mechanic where he expected his players to come to the GM, at level 9, to learn how to make poisons while stating the GM not to tell the players about this option. Gygax was absolutely antagonistic towards his players and it takes a very specific type of player will to put up with that shit.
>>92621552I have literally nothing against optimising/powerplay as long as the players will stick to my curated list of options each with specific lore tied to the setting they have to build their character identity around. If you can do that and, above all, fucking roleplay without being antagonistic to the table you're golden.
>>92626186>collaborative story tellingThis is the biggest lie in your post, faggot
>>92622926Sounds like a terrible GM tbqh, a lot of them milling about the scene now a days. I blame shitical role.
>>92626186Unfathomably based and 100% true.>>92626989Hilarious but not sure that actually happened.>>92623142>>92627545You're both retards just make it up on the night, 0 prep needed and optimal fun for the players.>>92630131Found the nogames
>>92630198>>92626186If you cater your campaign to the retarded don't think it'll stop at combat encounters. Those too stupid to make a mechanically sound character are too stupid to exhibit any agency. 'Forever DMs' love this kind of player because they pose no threat to the recitation of their fantasy novel. There's nothing collaborative about it.Notice the aversion to raising the stakes, if characters are in danger of dying you can't walk them through your novel.
>>92630198>You're both retards just make it up on the night, 0 prep needed and optimal fun for the players.My optimal fun comes from playing games, not sitting at tables listening to some failed writer try to run his narrative system.
>>92630328>not sitting at tables listening to some failed writer try to run his narrative system.
>>92621552>player is powergaming>tell him to make a perception check>fudge the roll as natty 1>"you have died under mysterious circumstances">never elaborate
>>92628443fucking same bro, I somehow just finished DMing a campaign game at level 20, I had to increase every enemy's hp into the thousands, multiple advanced templates, and a raw boost to their to-hit of like 10 and homebrew defensive abilities for them to even exist on the map for more than a single turnI will only ever run PF again if it's e6
>>92630575A fine example of a narrative system.
>>92622160What would an optimal challenge look like?
>>92630617How are you fudging someone else's rolls?
>>92631429it's easy when you're playing inside your own head
>>92621552>He's never played with a Pathfinder GM who runs the game as its supposed to be ran past level 6.
>>92624876>Reducing an inherently imaginative, creative hobby like wargamingImagine revealing you don't know anything about the history of wargames so easily. 'Infinite tactical freedom' in wargames with Braunstein in the 1960s, which is what lead to the development of roleplaying games and is relatively new in the 200 year history of wargaming.
>>92628664Also notice how he stopped picking a fight with me once I forced him to do a knowledge check on old AD&D books.
>>92631429He's probably playing an edition in which the DM makes all the rolls. Or he made a houserule where the DM makes everyone's rolls.
>>92631669>He's probably playing an edition in which the DM makes all the rollsWhy was that ever considered a good idea?
>>92631722Probably the same reason anything else in TTRPGs is considered a good idea.
>>92621691Not everyone has reached the point of maturity to realize that squeezing the most out of something you know isn't the best is the healthier and happier gaming playstyle.
>>92628443For like 15 years we've started our Pathfinder 1e games at level 6-9. I'll grant you, players do become quite capable.Keep a copy of their sheets.Plop their typical DPR into excel (each), along with their overall HP.Make note of how much healing they can do per day in between combats.Make note of how many of them there are.Build an encounter that matches them in DPR $ hp (switch them. Enemy HP equals their DPR x3 or 4, enemy DPR equals their HP / 3 or 4) and action economy.That gives you a starting point before you factor in spell shenanigans with wall spells and similar that make choke points and change the flow of battle.Make note of what CR enemies you found to best match that calculated target.Play it out, either yourself since you have their sheets, or with them.Tune it up from there.If you're just throwing one monster at then, that will very rarely seem challenging, simply because of the action economy disparity.
>>92629387+1. I do the same. Unless you infinite combo off into punpun land I will typically entertain your power gaming.If you're reading a mechanic in a way that breaks verisimilitude, I will probably run the mechanic to not do that, and you'll have known to expect that before you built characters.Better than someone who doesn't pay attention to whats going on and doesn't know how their character works and hasn't even read the game mechanics.
>>92630198I enjoy running a sandbox. The sandbox is my character, in that it sets the tone of the campaign without being a railroad, and I enjoy being surprised by what the players choose to do, while having material prepared to improvise to handle it well.I do not enjoy asspulling sessions with 0 prep, so I don't do that.>for the playersThe players still have fun in a gameworld I didn't pull out of my ass.
>>92631429Its not an uncommon variant to have the GM roll for perception / diplomacy / knowledge checks, where the player should not realize if they fucked up until the consequences for the fuck up happen. Prevents game damaging metagaming.That said, fudging dice also ruins games. If you don't like the mechanics, change the mechanics in advance so players know how it works rather than cheating your players out of a game.
>>92622669The thing I learned from running for and playing with minmaxers is that I'd rather not deal with their bullshit. I'm running b/x now and the only way to break it is if a powerful magic item drops for them. And guess what that's cool, looking for a holy avenger is cool. Playing mindless wackamole with every random encounter till your next powerspike is boring as shit.
>>92623360Balance, like all things, is good in moderation.
>>92627778Until you provide an example of a good game your opinion is irrelevant
>>92630617John Wick get the fuck out.
>>92621552Not if he wants to live, he won't.
>>92627097Yes, some people live incorrectly, I know.
>>92628589Do you?
>>92621746Nope, in my games optimizers and basket weavers can co-exist without issues.
>>92621691If the game can be broken simply by choosing options that are good, it's a bad game and you should play something else.
>>92626158>Claims to care about mechanics>Fails to grasp mechanics >Bitches about mechanics he doesn't understand
>>92631569Braunstein wasn't a tactics game anon. It didn't have rules for combat until someone challenged someone else to a duel and the GM decided one guy would roll 2d6 and the other would roll 3d6 and the loser died.The designer of Braunstein thought that fixating on manipulating rules like gun ranges was the opposite of useful for actual tactical thought.
>>92631569We're not doing predictive war simulation. We're playing.
>>92621552Honestly though? I won't. I'm just too fucking lazy to bother tailoring every single encounter to the specific power levels of whoever's character is OP at the moment. If a fight turns out easier than I expected? Whatever. It's still fifteen fucking hours long 'cuz it's 5e, and the players seem to enjoy it anyhow so I don't really care.
>>92636770>The designer of Braunstein thought that fixating on manipulating rules like gun ranges was the opposite of useful for actual tactical thought.what a retard then
>>92636828Well he was the combat veteran who spoke to people in the army about using war games for officer training, so I'm not going to argue with him on the issue of whether you can actually use traditional wargames to teach better tactical thinking. I do however enjoy them regardless of whether or not they would help me lead a real army. Personally I think that the pleasure that comes from mastering a rule set and playing it like an instrument is a very specific one, one that some people are in to and some people aren't. The issue for role players arises when both of those people are at the same table together.
>>92624569Gygax literally believed in the idea of "Player Skill" and there were unironic competitive D&D tournaments where an entire convention center would run through a module together and the people to actually win would get bragging rights and a prize. The theater kid crowd would endlessly complain about metagaming for what was considered basic player skill and being a good player back in the day.
>>92636770The designer of Braunstein used his own knowledge base to act as a a neutral arbitor. The rules are in his head and therefore did not need to be codified. Any system that you intend for more than one person to run needs more rules than "uhh whatever makes sense in context I guess"
>>92621552If the GM is an asshole dimwit (quite possible), yes.If the GM respects the integrity of the game, no.
>>92621648So you admit you don't want to actually play a game? You just want to sit around a table bullshitting and playing pretend at playing a game?
>>92622669Learn to ignore their complaints.
>>92637192"I want to do x" "hmm ok roll 3d6 and get over a 13" has basically nothing at all to do with what people mean when they say "war game" or tactics in the context of tabletop gaming. Grogs round here would try to nail you to a fucking cross for suggesting rule light on the fly making shit up like that is tactical gaming. David Wesley believed that rule sets rewarded engaging with the minutia of the rules themselves and not with the thing the game was intending to use those rules to model. Braunstein was basically a rules lite larp. He gave everyone a character with a motivation and objectives that were secret from the other players with the intention that people get scores based on how well they completed them, but had so many people turn up he couldn't do the scoring and dropped it when he figured out that the fun people were having was coming from interacting as characters and seeing how their intersecting stories played out and not from points and winning. No one was commanding any forces at all, in fact I've seen him say in an interview that everyone else was assuming that SOMEONE else had an army under their command.Wesley was not a veteran when he first started running Braunstein, he was just some guy. The rules weren't in his head he made them up on the spot, he has said as much, there wasn't a formula to them it was based on the logic of the situation and eyeballing percentages.
>>926216142pbp
>>92637210Do you enjoy only getting into fights that waste everyone's time or something?
>>92621552So, making a shit build is irrelevant because the GM will just make the game easier?
>>92626158Yeah.
>>92621648bro doesn't know spells exist lol
>>92637558Do you?
>>92622669Guess you should stop being a shit GM, retard.
>>92637832No, for the same reason I don't make players roll to see if their character can walk across a floor without tripping.
he's so close to getting it lol
>>92632182yeah even with a group of monsters they usually lock them down and counter their shit
>>92632182>hitpoint damageyou know absolutely nothing about optimizing lmao
>>92621691The problem with minmaxing is that it's very often a solved equation from the get-go. Certain feats and abilities and spells naturally offer such obvious advantages and reliably abusable options that the minmaxer game comes down to>take X, Y, and Z>at the start of battle take the minimal steps required to achieve optimal functionality>kill everything as fast as possible by making many attacks with the largest possible bonuses to hit and damage.>win no matter what unless the DM gets sick of your shit
>>92637828You don’t get to cast a spell in reaction to a saw blade taking your head off, sorry casterfag :)
>>92621552I help my players optimize their characters when I GM so I can throw crazier encounters at them. I miss when I had multiple minmaxxers who would pull some nutty build out and give me something I never expected, remaining party members mostly just like to rp.
>>92624569Gaygag is a faggot but a broken clock is right twice a day.Anyway, the real solution is to kick powergamers and also kick retards who refuse to engage with the system. Like most things, the moderate position is the correct one; You should absolutely ensure your character is mechanically good at what you want them to do, but both their best and worst mechanical aspects should be reflected in their character and your roleplaying of that characters, and you also need to understand that there is a difference between optimizing your character to do what you want and min-maxing. The former is just ensuring your mechanics can back up your flavor, the latter is actively trying to snap the game in half just so you can jerk yourself off over "beating" the GM or whatever. The latter is bad, the former is good.
>>92625140>He needs to keep the game events believable AND entertaining to the playersHe doesn't have to engage with shithead players who don't actually care about the game being believable and who think entertaining means always winning with their bullshit.>the more powerful their characters, the harder it is to make things more challenging for them in a believable fashion.Nah.
>>92621552I've never met an optimizer or minmax player. Lucky me.
>>92621648Well done my friend. I just don't let this humans play with me.
>>92640564I cast shield, it misses me.
>>92621691>>92622654I kneel, kings.
>>92621552So what I am getting from this thread is that there are at least two species of powegamer. The reasonably intelligent yet tragically hypothetical sort who optimize for fun but know how and when to keep it in their pants so the game remains enjoyable for all, and the terminal smoothbrains who give no fucks about anyone else at the table and only care about their own experience.
>>92641652Nice people and autists.
>>92641504He does.
>>92641715>he does have to deal with shithead playersHe doesn't. He's the GM. He can boot the shithead and replace him with a decent person instead. Players are a dime a dozen and shitheads like (you) deserve to be nogames like you currently are.>He does have to deal with entertaining the playersWrong, it's their job to entertain him.>He does have to make things more challenging in a believable fashionHe doesn't, as long as it's internally consistent with the setting - and guess who decides that? the GM.
>>92641766Wrong. The GM is the players' bitch.
>>92641774>T. malding nogames who has been ejected from every game he's tried to join for being a little shitThe GM has absolute power over the game and who attends.
>>92641783I play in three different games every week. The GMs can't do shit without my permission.
>>92641793He can, all he has to do is say "you're not welcome here anymore" and kick you out. If it's an IRL game, a firearm helps to persuade stubborn retards like (you). If it's online, he can just remove you from all things tied to the game.
>>92641808Nope, he can't.
>>92641822He literally could at any point, I've done it myself (removed a player from a game for being a problem) twice. It's super easy. I refuse to deal with shitheads, your GM is just a retard.
>>92641846Nope. Never happened, never will.
>>92641808You're arguing with an IRL little bitch who is living out his power fantasy in this conversation.
>>92641887True
>>92641887>hurr I pull guns on my problem playersHE is the one with the power fantasy, since he's describing something that clearly never happened.
>>92621691>optimizing is fun when you deliberately make nonoptimal decisions
>>92621736>Shadowrun 3E>progressionlol what
>>92642055Correct
>>92642055What you are experiencing is known as zen.
>>92640564Actually I do :)
>>92642002Of course not, because I play online and I can just remove players from the game. But if someone refuses to leave your home after you ask them to, they are trespassing and in any state worth a damn you are allowed to shoot them for it.
>>92643401Nope, can't remove me :)
Neither the games master nor the player have any real power over each other, because they are friends trying to play a game together. The games master is entitled to certain privileges because it is his role in the game to determine how events develop in response to the player characters' actions, and he is therefore due a certain appreciation from his friends for putting on extra effort on their behalf. I don't really understand the adversarial style of games mastering, where you presume that the players are hostile to you and treat them the same. Just don't play with people you don't like.
>>92637558I enjoy playing games instead sitting around pretending to play games. Do you play your video games with cheat mode enabled?
>>92621552There is no point in playing a game where you will always face a challenge you will overcome with precisely half your hitpoints and spells remaining because this is what balancefags have determined is "fun" with their simian level int score
>>92621552I think a LOT of players, possibly the large majority(?), are not truly interested in playing a real game with set rules and win/loss conditions, but are instead out to "play" at playing a "good game" full of exciting and entertaining exchanges, even if the win/lose game aspect is completely subverted and they are essentially taking part in a role-playing sketch. And this is even happening in card games. This is what casual EDH and rule 0 has created. People "playing" at playing a game.For clarification: you all know what I mean by "playing" at playing a game, right? It's a bit of a hard thing to explain.
Some examples of "playing" at playing a game.>poolYou miss a shot. You shout "Do over!" and put the balls back where they were and try again. This is not part of the rules of the game. There are no do-overs. By having a do-over you have corrupted the game and now you are playing your "house rules" instead of the actual game of pool. If all players agreed to a set number of do-overs you are once again playing a game, but you are now playing House Pool instead of Pool. If you claim you are playing Pool you are being dishonest.>pokerYou are five years old. You saw some cowboys playing poker in a movie on television. You and your sister pick up a deck of cards and begin playing "poker". Except you do not know any of the rules. You make large "bets" and dramatically flourish your cards as rake in a pile of pennies. Very fun, but you are merely "playing" in a game of pretend-poker. You are not playing Poker.
>>92644911>>92645007Yes. That's a very large proportion of people these days. Its a vaguely social activity an an excuse to hang out with people but they're not there to actually play a game. I know a GM who leans this way and has a player group that lean this way. He explicitly says TTRPGs are not games, they're storytelling social activities, and uses the term "Table-Talk" instead, which is apparently a term coined in Japan.I've told him how I play and run TTRPGs where either characters come in with a long term win condition meant to be met over the next ~20 sessions, or one ends up being decided on in the first few sessions, roll the dice in the open, and have explicit procedures to establish rulings when we discover an ambiguous rule or one that if applied to the letter breaks verisimilitude.He said that's *almost* a game (he objects to setting a win condition after play starts while applying the term), but then said something along the lines of "in current day, the average player is not signing up for that", and told me my play type preference is a relic that was already niche in the '90s.He might well be right. But it's what I'm interested in running / playing. I'm not terribly interested in not-a-game table talk storytime social hour.
>>92640564And here I thought quests had their own board now.
>>92624935>as a GM you increase the challenge as player skill increases (sic) by making the situations they find themselves in more complex in generalI keep trying to do this both as a player and a GM, but very few people are interested in playing on a more complex lair. My characters buy beasts of burden and transports and hires hirelings and consider the wider implications of a powerful independent organization wandering the countryside, but the other players think I'm wasting their time. As a GM, I impress upon the party very quickly that navigating the world is difficult and complicated, that getting and moving wealth is, itself, an extra complication that makes your life more complicated, and that establishing and maintaining a network of contacts is an important element of becoming more influential and powerful. They get annoyed whenever a situation is any more complicated than a transparent moral choice or when their actions affect the world beyond what is immediately visible to them.
>>92621552>There is no point is optimizing/powergamingFTFY.
>>92621552Optimizing for some random skill is kino, optimizing to be the best murderbot is cringe For instance, making a character that can effectively speak every language and use their massive linguistics skill in place of social skills for some purposes
>>92622543All games have to be learned, and reading the rulebook once for chargen will usually not give you the depth of understanding necessary to minmax.
>>92622926End up doing the opposite. I don't want the players to just read off the monster manual on top of minmaxing, so instead of scaling UP weaker shit I scale DOWN much stronger enemies and refluff them some.
>>92643401>>in any state worth a damn you are allowed to shoot them for it>shoot them>they start haunting your house, staring at your GFs tits in the shower and clogging your shitterNice try idiot
As a person that also plays sports (football, but not the American one), I reckon it's much more enjoyable when you don't play with dicks and let the game flow and let everyone have fun. OK, sports also have their competitive counterpart, where it's expected to fight untill the very end. This counterpart does not exist in RPGs, so being a minmaxer is pointless and autistic.
>>92642002I actually do open carry while DMing but that’s cuz my buddies all live in shithole neighborhoods
>>92621614>>92621736>>92637381Overcompensating.
>>92648843>>92622543>>92621893I don't understand 4chan sometimes. None of these posts even have anything to do with each other. Are you guys bots or something?
>>92633020Found the guy who kicked the GM's dog.
>>92633020Also what that not-Wick GM did was:"Your character is pulled into an alleyway.""... So what happens to my character?""You don't know."
Ok then it didn't happen. I'll continue playing my character.
>>92655611>>92655680this
>>92656046>>92655680It's among the last loose ends tying up the end of the campaign.
Nope.
>>92650043>This counterpart does not exist in RPGs,The hell it doesn't. What makes playing to win a tabletop game any different to playing to in a physical sport?
>>92624876>gameYou keep using that word.
>>92657394how do you 'win' a ttrpg? by having the biggest imaginary peen?
>>92657412I will.
>>92657644Killing the bad guy.
>>92656360you mean not tying them up, lmao
>>92657975how is bbeg-slaying competitive though?
>>92658112The character being playable was measured twice and cut once.
>>92622669>Best thing you can do is kill them off or filter these players out of your game.I choose killing those sort of players off, thanks. The world is better with them gone.
>>92657644>how do you 'win' a ttrpg?Getting the GM to quit in frustration.
>>92660524I've only managed to pull this off once, but yeah, it really feels like a victory.
>>92660524This is currently happening in my game and I sincerly think this will be the last time I try this game with this current player batch. Only a couple of players are doing for me and if they want to continue playing, I'll let them find other players 'cause I won't do the effort ever again.
>>92660524I've had players who did that. I get the frustration that leads to it but I'd rather they talk and help me improve my approach than burn it all down like an autist.
>>92621552>Get into an arms race with the GM>He responds by adding monsters designed to kill me>The rest of the party are mediocre in both build and strategy>Go after the mobs meant for them while diverting the mobs meant for me to the nothingmasters>I'm fine>Meanwhile they constantly have to get new characters>Finally he "gets" me>The party has changed hands so much that there is no PC alive who knows the greater story arcGet fucked idiot, this was never supposed to be a competition.
>>92661812>Get into an arms race with the GM>it was never supposed to be a competition>competed with GM>not supposed to be a competitionYou're retard.However, your GM is even more than you because he didn't take care of aligning new characters with his setting's lore and overarching storylines.
>>92621552Most GMs don't even have the IQ to run the game right, let alone to adjust it. Meanwhile most players can't create competent characters to save their lives.A GM I played with killed the campaign because THIS happened>Playing Fighter switch-hitter, greatsword, bow and halberd as is common.>Arrive to a village besieged by goblins that do hit and run at it.>Say no more>Take shovel and dig a 10x10x10 foot hole in front of the village gates>Goblins arrive>Start outsniping them due to sane character building and usage of cover from the gates.>Goblins charge and fall into into the hole.>Drop bow and step up to the hole as I draw my halberd and kill the first goblin.>Goblins cant reach me because they have no Reach weapons.>They start trying to climb out>AoO on each of them because I have dexterity out the ass and multiple AoO per turn.>Other players are not ranged gods and have no reach weapons so they can't join in on the murder except to weakly stand on the side of the pit and AoO any goblin climbing out I haven't killed>30 dead goblins later, session ends>GM ghosts us next sessionA DnD Fighter did this.
>>92663195Why did they all run into the pit like lemmings? Is your GM retarded? or does he just not exist?
>>92663195>GM plays goblins as suicidal lemmings>I wank myself off for killing a non-threat that acted retarded at every stepFixed that for you.
>>92663195>>AoO on each of them because I have dexterity out the ass and multiple AoO per turn.>A DnD Fighter did this.a 3/.5 dnd fighter did this (note the lack of any goblin spellcasters to save-or-suck him into uselessness, while also lacking any bows themselves)
>>92666354Note that they apparently "hit and run" but didn't take cover from the guy sniping them. Even though it would take no effort to move away and gain total cover from this asshole to force him out.
>>92642783Even if you don't know how much money you'll make a run it's viable to map out how a non-mage should spend karma.Magic characters have all sorts of bullshit to consider.I personally don't do that since the joy of the karma system is how it lets you adjust based on the recent jobs, but he's an autist.
>>92621552dont really have this problem since all of my players intentionally made unoptimal choices for roleplay reasons, so none of them ended up being busted.Only one guy realized that the build he created had some dumb meme strats that could possibly break some encounters, but since he didnt want to abuse it he made it so his character is too stupid to notice, and is keeping it on the backburner, waiting for the right moment to use it.
>>92666320>>92665742>>92666354>>92666377I never said goblins had no bows, dipshits, I specifically said that I was outsniping them due to AC out the ass (good dex and chain shirt), high precision (dex and weapon focus) and high damage (high strength and longbow).Also the point of the story IS that the GM was fucking retarded, that's why I opened the post with>Most GMs don't even have the IQ to run the game right, let alone to adjust it.That's exactly why>they all run into the pit like lemmingsand>the lack of any goblin spellcasters to save-or-suck him into uselessnessand the resulting ragequit.It wasn't about wanking myself off.
>>92666395Not really. Especially in a game like Shadowrun. How you spend karma tells the GM how you want jobs to go.
>>92667364>good dex and chain shirtSo AC 15. Doesn't work for me.
>>92667364>It wasn't about wanking myself off.>Other players are not ranged gods You are gooning in front of a mirror. You are oiled up and moaning.
>>9266864110 + 2 (Dex) + 6 Armor = 18Armor Training at level 3 to get +1 to min AC for total of 19.>>92668670>Meanwhile most players can't create competent characters to save their lives.If your character has no sensible ranged option, a goblin with a bow can run circles around them peppering them to death with stones.But if you really wanna see me oiled up, visit my OnlyFans, it'd be more effective.
>>92649997>ghost starts haunting your house>shoot your gun with another gun>use new ghost gun to shoot ghostEasy
>>92663195I remember a 7 samurai situation like that in a game>small town with actual 2 meter walls is attacked constantly by bandits>they hire us to defend themThe barb got killed by a horse charge that dealt like 200+ damage, we were level 7 btw but every bandit seemed to be built into crit fishing while charging despite not everyone having horse. GM also suicided all the bandits on kamikaze charges hoping for that insane impossible to survive hit. I don't like when GM treat enemies as disposable grenades who will never surrender and who will launch themselves into battle and die by dozens just to kill a random PC, makes no senseAnd yeah, we also made a trench around the town's two entrances, they still jumped over it with some weird mounted charge feat
>>92663116>storyfaggingIt was doomed from the start
>>92671686Yeah it is quite shitty when the GM figures out the mechanics but then entirely forgets to roleplay.Being a 5-7CR critfishing bandit is all well and good but surely there's more money in critfishing lords and dungeons and dragons than some random village with 2 meter walls (average person's height is like 1.7 meters)
>>92669933Don't describe your character as a god and then retreat to "oh I'm so humble I'm just being reasonable". At least own it. You are riding a dildo of your own creation.
>>92675149Okay calm down faggot and stop fantasizing about me like that.
My issue is that ive literally never found anyone else good at optimizing and ive encounter wide swathes of mediocre DMs topped out long ago with payers of roughyl the same ability. Sure I can go to a place like this and hear about tier zero Spell to Power Erudites and and 4E simu;acrum fuckary but every table ive been at physically all had playes that were dumbfound at the power of GWM Barbarians or thought they needed a healer
>>92657644By following the rules set out before the game.
>>92658272It's no different than beating a single player video game.
>>92626158No, you don't care about the mechanics though. What you care about is optimizing the fun out of the game. And people who optimize the fun out of a game deserve to have their character killed off in stupid and humiliating ways. Stop trying to be a power gamer and learn how to just have fun.>B-b-but being a power gamer is how I have fun!!!Tough shit. Learn how to have fun without being a power gamer.
>>92677048It's only fun when I win.
>>92675292>okay leave me alone I'm cryingYou're gay and mad about it.
>>92621648based
>>92677048YOU don't care about actually playing a game. You just want to sit around doing a live fantasy roleplay sketch.
>>92624811Maybe you should try thinking for yourself and have your character attempt things that aren't class abilities expressly written on your character sheet.
>>92621648This reminds me a GM tried to do exactly that with a rope bridge to try killing my character and he failed, killing another character lmaoWhat a loser.
>>92671823Yes, the majority of storytellers don't register everything that's happening on their setting nor players care for that. When a new player comes around in these types of games, many find it difficult to align new characters to stories and plotlines to the point older players need to update them to what's happening (if they even remember).One of my GM gives extra XP to players who do a summary of the session (he normaly asks for POV summaries as a way to do bluebooking), which is nice. What irks me the most in narrative-driven settings and stories are players who don't wanna read the setting nor trying to understand what's happening. Really. I'm playing a game like that and I'm in charge to update scenario and organize everything. I updated many handouts and created new ones for new players. None of them read it. It's fucking frustrating.
>>92622669This, I’ve noticed they also like to write backstories that make up for their weaknesses>DM I know my character has a -4 in religion but in my backstory it says I was raised in a church so could I get advantage on the check?
I’ve never played a good game run by a min maxxer, that’s evidence enough to tell they’re subhuman
>>92682915>like to write backstories that make up for their weaknessesThis is something that happens even more frequently in Mind Eye's TTRPG like WoD. One player had the following story for his Werewolf the Apocalypse character:>romani>her whole kumpania was destroyed and survivors were made slaves by a guerilla group>her and her mother were abused physicaly and sexually daily>somehow between a rape and punch in the face her mother could still teach the ways of the roma people and tell stories>her character had future sight ability and was also used as a seer by the guerilla for then continue their war tactics (meanwhile being abused in many ways)>her mother eventualy dies>eventually all her kumpania died, making her the sole survivor>one day she Changes into a werewolf and convinently a pack of angry werewolves arrives at same time and help her destroy the whole guerilla>she's adpted into the werewolf tribe>she learns about a secret sect of this tribe via her mentor>basicaly a bunch of vengeful terrorists that uses a façade of "religious justice" to strike down evil people>their method of joining is being thrown in a psychic hellscape that works as a psychodrama theater that tortures the apprentice psychology until he gives in to his vengeful side and merges one with it>"my character has no traumas because she healed all of it in my background story">at same time tried to dramatize his character's own trauma when convenient>when someone tried to appeal to her trauma he said "no, this can't happen because she is healed!"I hate when they do this type of shit. Sometimes I think it's worse than powergaming.
>>92621614Nah, I always used to end up at odds with my old group's GM. He stuck to the rules as written but still tried to fuck us over constantly so I we became power gamers just to adapt. Wasn't until I stopped playing pathfinder that I got out of the habit.
I'm new to all this stuff so bear with me, but what if the appeal is that you like to see how minute changes in probability actually affect things within a set of rules? Like, what if you're just into gambling but you want stat progressions and RPing to even out the odds over time? Would simply optimizing a player to "figure out" and explore the game be frowned upon?
>>92621552So there's no difference. In fact, that makes the game more fun because I'm roleplaying as a powerful character and fighting monsters that pose a greater threat to the world.
>>92621552
>>92624569Gygax was just mad that powergamers knew more about the game than he did himself.It's no surprise, this happens in every game ever made, leave it to speedrunners and other kinds of powergamers to know more about a game than the devs themselves.And the funny thing is that speedrunning was actually a big part of the game back then, when multiple groups would compete to finish an adventure as fast they can, taking the least amount of damage as possible.
>>92680954Maybe you should eat a dick. Do you see real soldiers kicking over tables and shooting pillars instead of people? No, because that's fucking retarded.
