Hex & Counter Wargame thread. Was happy to see a popular thread up on this topic a few days ago, hex & counter games always get glossed over in /hwg/. What are you playing? What do you want to play? I haven't been able to find the time to play as much as I'd like over the past few months, but I do always find myself coming back to ASL, and I have a shelf full of GMT games I'm wanting to try. Open to finding opponents for VASSAL games if any anons are into that too
Here's most of my collection
Any games you’d recommend to a complete newb? Also, any WW1 games you’d suggest?
>>93167915Advanced Squad Leader starter kit. Start with module 1 and just work your way up. Module 1 is only infantry, module 2 introduces field guns, module 3 vehicles, etc. Nothing about ASL is simple but these modules do a good job of easing you into it. As for WW1 I own GMT's '1914' series but have not actually played any of them. They all seem very fun though, although quite large/complex, so just haven't had the time
>>93167793I am in the middle of learning Red Strike from VUCA. The missile table is so autistic, I love it.
>>93168364I've heard good things about VUCA. Nach Paris looks interesting
>>93167793It's not exactly hex and chit, but I'm actually making a VASSAL mod for Hammer of Thor. It's this (admittedly not great) mythological hexcrawly sort of game. You pick a figure from Norse mythology, run around the game map, generate encounters based on where you wander through the map (the locations are constellations, but admittedly the screenshot I took doesn't capture this well), and try to do things to get your reputation higher than anyone else.There are a list of problems I can list with the game, if anyone's interested, but it's fun to just kind of run around and shoot the shit.
>>93167793Just bought Beyond Valor and the RB. I'll hit you up when I get a hang of the rules. Will probably focus on infantry stuff for now.
>>93167915The ASLSKs are a lot for a complete newbie to handle, even if it does deliver ASL in more manageable bites. For a more easily swallowable game that also happens to be WW1 I’d recommend Great War Commander. It’s an adaptation of Combat Commander (which uses cards for its action economy) for WW1. Anything larger scale and unfortunately you run into a bit of a dearth of content. There are a few very good complex hex and counter games like the 1914 series as >>93167959 said, but to be frank if you want a playable but still dense WW1 game I’d sooner recommend Paths of Glory, which is decidedly NOT a hex and counter game, but it’s such a brilliant design it’s shadow still looms large to his day.
>>93168386VUCA have their issues with errata and playtesting like *every* wargame company but they’re on the cutting edge of production quality. If your company can’t make games as cheap as GMT then you better fucking make them at least look like these VUCA games.
>>93167915I could combine both in one with When Eagles Fight. Eastern Front WW1 game. Play time is usually around 3-4 hours. One of those games where the rules themselves are very simple but there's a lot of tactical complication that goes into it. You can get it for free on Vassal too.
>>93168397Sounds interesting anon, I would like to play this. Good luck with the module design>>93168410beecrafty on discord if you ever wanna play once you're comfortable with the infantry rules (I say just dive in and learn all the gun/vehicle mechanics though. That's what I did and I had a blast). Same goes for any other anons that want to play games of whatever on VASSAL. hmu
I'm having a lot of fun currently forcing my gf to play Domains at War Battles with me, have you anons ever gotten your partner into this shit?
>>93167793Is that some motherfuckin’ Holland ‘44?>>93167799Based shelf even if I can’t stand ASL
what differentiates these from normal wargames
>>93169900Define “normal” wargame first
>>93169926toys you paint
>>93169940The game mechanics work, and the rules are designed in such a way as to be both clear and lead to a balanced game.
>>93169940Hex and counter games veer toward historical simulation rather than sandbox variety like miniatures games do. Mechanics emphasize “realism” (a very nebulous term that means different things to different people) and plausibility above all else, though modern designs tend to have very novel gameplay mechanisms that are more innovative than what is found in miniatures games. Also, while no single game (except maybe Advanced Squad Leader) will never have nearly as much variety as a game like Warhammer 40k, the genre as a whole is a lot more varied than miniatures games are due to the more abstract components. A single counter could, depending on the game, represent one individual soldier, or it could represent an entire army. You can design one of the games (and other board wargames that aren’t hex and counter but are adjacent to them) to cover any conflict you want at any scale you want, with as much or as little detail as you want.
>>93168714I could probably get my gf to play Root because of the animal theme but getting her to invest time into a historical confrontation where grey squares represent grey boxes (tanks) is a foregone conclusion. Aside from that what is anons opinion on Shadow of the Demon Lord?I used it two years ago as an endgame representation of our sword&sorcery rpg campaign when they gained all kinds of influence. I kinda want to revisit the hex&chit genre with my group again but I'm wondering if other games are just superior to shadow of the demon lord.
>>93170451Isn’t Shadow of the Demon Lord an RPG? What does that have to do with hex and counter?
>>93170553My bad. Been some while since I ran it. Of course Shadow of the demon Lord is the RPG. Plain "Demonlord" is the name of the Hex & CHit game.
>>93170597Well if you’re looking for fantasy hex and counter there are some other old classics: SPI’s War of the Ring is the gold standard, and a few others like Divine Right have their fans even if they’re fairly dated. Unfortunately in the 80’s and 90’s when wargames were starting to lose popularity they focused heavily on historical and hypothetical conflicts instead of fantastical ones. So for about 40ish years or so there were basically zero new fantasy hex and counter games.That changed a few months ago with the release of Burning Banners by Compass Games. I haven’t played it but it’s been received very well so far.
>>93169783Nah I have like 5 or 6 of the '4x' series but Holland isn't one of them. It's only a matter of time until I buy that one though. Stalingrad is the only one I've actually played so far and it's superb
>>93171349I’ve played Holland, Salerno, and North Africa. They’re all excellent. Determined defense should be in every game.
>>93170684>Burning BannersLooks pretty interesting. Gotta keep an eye on it if it drops in price or gets released on tts/pdf.
>>93167793I like DVGs Leader gamesI own both Hornet and Phantom Leader, they are fun and easy to play
>>93168364How is it? Especially in terms of solo playability and for a relative newbie to these kind of games?
>>93170597I still have the original Demonlord from the 80s. The rules were about as complex as any hex & chit wargame back then, but the components (map & counters) were disappointing. Lots of colour, which wasn't standard in those days, but that map just wouldn't lay flat for me.If that game doesn't put you off, you'll be fine with pretty well anything, given a subject to interest you and maybe the gf.
Last thread got me really interested in H&C games, I decided to pick up Save Afghanistan, Comrade! as my first game to try things out.If it ends up hooking me I'm planning on grabbing Pursuit of Glory and maybe P500 Men of Iron: Arquebus after.I've been trying to find a Modern Era (1980's to Present) tactical squad game that can be played solo but can't really find any. Urban Operations by NUTS! was exactly what I was looking for but apparently can't handle solo play, does anyone know of any good alternatives?
Is this game any good? Is it easy to teach a wargame newbie?
>>93174968>How is it? If you want a monster wargame on hypothetical WW3 with a novel action/reaction system and a lot of simulated detail, you won’t find a better game. >Solo playability Decent for two handing, though it isn’t perfect information like some games. You lose a little bit of the gamesmanship of picking ground combat formations and air mission detection. Still, it’s not too egregious. >a relative newbie to these kind of games?Anyone can learn anything if they’re interested enough in the topic, but most aren’t WW3 autists like me so I’d probably say no. It’s 50+ pages of dense rules and the mechanical granularity can be overwhelming even in the smaller scenarios. If you want WW3 but playable I’d recommend The Third World War, either the classic GDW version or the Compass reprint. That will be more than enough for most. >>93175273That’s definitely an interesting pick, though I can’t comment on it as I’ve never played it or even heard of it. >Pursuit of GloryJust got done playing Paths of Glory today actually. I haven’t played Pursuit beyond knowing it’s more complex but held in very high regard. The system as a whole is stellar, you can’t go wrong.>Modern Era soloArmageddon War if you want solo + 2 player. The Mog if you want pure solo. There’s also going to be Fields of Fire Volume 3 coming out next year (maybe) that’s about the British Paras. It’ll have Market Garden, Falklands, and Afghanistan campaigns. That game is also pure solo.>>93177355It’s novel in its command and simultaneous action systems but I find it to be a little dry personally. I’d recommend Combat Commander or Band of Brothers for a novice.
>>93178040The MOG looks preety slick, thank anon.By the way, I've seen people talk about using plexi glass and tweezers for these games, are there any supplies you'd recommend grabbing for a newbie or is it something that I shouldn't worry about yet?
Any good Solo print and play games?
>>93178592>PlexiFor the things you’re currently interested in I’d say no. The Mog’s map is paper but I don’t think it’s large enough to justify getting plexi for it, and Pursuit’s board is mounted which would require books to flatten more than anything else. Plexi is useful for large paper maps where hexes are pretty close together, but for your current interests I doubt you’d need it at all. Once you actually play some stuff you may feel differently though. Tweezers are another matter. While I’d hardly say their necessary when small counters are close together they can be quite useful in preventing tall stacks from getting knocked over when trying to manipulate them. They’re probably unnecessary for The Mog but might be useful for Pursuit of Glory. Also, I’d highly recommend looking into Vassal. It and the modules for it are all free, and most board wargames have published rulebooks if not all of them (and often that excludes scenario rules). But, it’s still a good way too actually look at the games on the table. Tabletop Simulator is a solid alternative but it’s implementation of hex and counter tends to be mediocre except for a handful of more popular games.
>>93179004White Dog Games is your friend. The aforementioned The Mog is one of their games and can be PnP’d
>>93179042You're a real one anon, thanks
>>93181493Happy to help. Non-miniature wargaming isn’t discussed much here on /tg/ so I try to spread the gospel as much as I can. It’s definitely not for everyone but it is for some, even if they don’t know it yet.
I was just wondering if Warhammer Fantady could be ported to a h&c system and it looks like someone tried.https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1LclOjQDjc4aSOkM2nEjhJy2rzv2qRhul3Mm_cfHb4m4/mobilebasicI dunno how "good" it is, I have to read through it all, but it might be worth checking out for people used to 3d wargames
>>93184659It shouldn’t be too difficult to go back and forth with any game. World at War ‘85 even has cards for all the units that say how many inches of movement they should have at multiple scale if you want to play with minis.A hex is simply an abstraction of distance.
Litoral Commander anyone? I was looking at something quick and "smaller" in scale and I've heard good of this but never heard of anyone else playing it outside reviewers
>>93184742Unfortunately no. Most discussion about the game tends to relate to its usage in military wargaming, which was it’s intended purpose.It’s a shame. Wargaming used to have tons of hypothetical conflict games and that just isn’t the case anymore. It’s almost all historicals.
>>93183087Trying to spread the gospel by making this thread as well. What do y'all think, would it be worth making a regular general for hex and counter? Is there much interest? I mostly lurk and am pretty retarded about posting etiquette and all that but I can try if anons want it. It would be nice to try to reinvigorate at least a little bit of life into this niche hobby
>>93186534Classic wargames are an old part of this hobby even if they aren't a massively popular one, but in the last thread as well as this one there have been a good few people interested in learning more who just aren't normally exposed to this kind of content. I don't know if a general would hold due to the nicheness, but it might be worthwhile. Let this thread burn first though.
>>93186534>>93186599The fact that this thread and the last one couldn't come close to bump limit should tell you just how many people care about this ugly looking trash. This is 40k board.
>>93186534I'd be happy to see these threads keep going
>>93184742>>93185180That does make me interested in what modern hypothetical wargames there are. Even now most hypothetical wargames are still set in the 80s during the Cold War and most modern wargames are about the War on Terror. I know about Next War and now this game but what else is there?
>>93187534I know of The Third World War, and Next War,
>>93187120OK plastic crackhead. Tabletop minis are ugly as hell manchild toys
Do you guys prefer having Folio or Boxed games if you get the choice while ordering? If both packages came with the exact same components
>>93187726>The Third World WarThat was only a modern hypothetical conflict when it came out. In 1984.
>>93187808>Decision barf
>>93179066nta but thanks, some of these solitaire games look fun
Are there any free rules for hex and counter games? I'd like to check them out, but I'm not going to drop money on something I have no experience with, especially because some of them look rather pricey.
>>93191524yeah looked up Thunderbolt Apache Leader and got a shock. I guess ultra niche hardcore stuff needs to recoup the production costs somehow. I love the idea of these but always just end up playing Panzer General on pc instead.
>>93191524>>93192379Lots of hex and counter games have their rules posted online. I’ll just go through a few companies and their usual practices:>GMTPublish almost everything online. The only exception is if the game’s designer explicitly requests scenarios (not the rulebook itself) not be published. >Compass GamesSame deal. Publish almost everything except scenarios at the designer’s request >MMP Would have to be dragged kicking and screaming to publish anything at all. Partially bypassed by Historical Wargames General having a trove of Advanced Squad Leader material>Colombia GamesPublishes literally everything>WorthingtonOccasionally publishes rules for their games, but not often>Legion Wargames Publishes rules for basically everything >VUCA Sims Publishes rules and scenarios and will even link you to Vassal modules if one exists>Lock n’ Load Publishing Publishes rules for everything
>>93191524I recommended the game upthread >>93168485 but you can get WEF on Vassal and the rules online for free. https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/gmtwebsiteassets/1914GE/WhenEaglesFight_RULES_FINAL.pdfhttps://vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:1914:_Glory%27s_End_/_When_Eagles_FightIt's also just IMO a very well suited beginner's wargame, and it's why I often recommend it. It is however a WW1 theater strategic level game, which might not be your particular cup of tea. Is there any conflict or scale you prefer to play at? There's a reasonable chance I can find something that suits you specifically.
>>93167793I don't know if anyone is into World in Flames, but Bruce Jurin (Big WiF bigwig, wrote the players guide and a zillion articles as well as winning some WiFcons) is doing a solitaire AAR game on Boardgamegeek.https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3271691/new-soitaire-game-before-action-reporthttps://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3272350/before-action-report-2-the-key-to-remaining-set-uphttps://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3272960/before-action-report-part-3-setting-up-the-cw-andhttps://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3276573/before-action-report-4-final-japan-and-germanyhttps://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3278793/new-solitaire-game-first-turn-strategy-part-1https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3279328/new-solitaire-game-first-turn-strategy-part-2https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3279921/solitaire-game-first-turnhttps://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3281134/solitaire-game-turn-1-impulse-2https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3282369/solitaire-game-remaining-turn-1https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3284041/solitaire-game-turn-2https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3287513/solitaire-game-jf-1940https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3290474/solitaire-game-turn-4-ma-1940https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3292143/solitaire-game-turn-5-mj-1940https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3295558/solitaire-game-turn-6-ja-1940https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3299411/solitaire-game-turn-7-preliminaries-so-1940https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3301158/solitaire-game-turn-8-nd-1940https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3303703/solitaire-game-turn-9-jf-1941https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3307562/turn-10-mj-1941-last-relative-calm-before-the-storhttps://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3308677/solitaire-game-analysis-of-the-position-before-mjhttps://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3311488/solitaire-game-turn-11-mj-1941https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3316358/solitaire-game-ja-1941-turn-12https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3320673/solitaire-game-turn-13-s-o-1941https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/3322264/solitaire-game-turn-14-nd-1941
Dead threadDead genreDead players
>>93195138deadshit
>>93195910Precisely
I really like Domains at War: Battles, but it makes trannies seethe
>>93167793What about ASL appeals to you over other games?
>>93170451Everyone has rooted your gf m8
>>93184659Y thohttps://columbiagames.com/columbiablocksystem/wizard-kings/
>>93188029>the same 2-3 retards reveal themselves in postingTheir 30 Year's War game was quite good, lots of detail, accurate maps and units. I think if you have an opinion on something you should explain it for the enlightenment of the thread.
>>93195138However will I and the thousands of others playing these games ever recover. What do you play? This should be good.
Two of my personal favouriteshttps://www.compassgames.com/product/commands-colors-tricorne-jacobite-rising/https://www.gmtgames.com/p-626-musket-pike-dual-pack.aspx
>>93196594Decision Games are a crapshoot anon. They do zero playtesting on anything and frankly for the component quality they’re massively overpriced, even by wargame standards. Their only truly nice production is Axis Empires Ultimate Edition and it’s fucking $400. >>93196599Don’t respond to bait anon. >>93196602I’ve played C&C games but not Tricorne, what sets it apart?
>>93196832Well, they never sent games I ordered so I am middling on them.Honestly, the setting. Love that period
>>93191524>>93192379>>93192981Thanks everyone.>When Eagles FightI don't really mind if it's WWI-based. I'll still check it out.
>>93192379>got a shockYep, Dan Versen Games is small. Couldn't even get my flgs to order one because the distributor didn't have any and didn't know if they could get any and don't think they'd ever had it in the first place, not even the first edition which was published by GMT.>>93192443>>GMT>Publish almost everything online. The only exceptionFor this purpose, Italian-only rules don't count. It's been over five years since the medieval theme reprint and I have still never seen the English Battle Line rules there. Not a war game but a bit of an oversight or a snub on their part for what is according to them their 2nd best ever selling game. Very much in GMT's favour, they sometimes even keep copies of Vassal modules on their website. That's sort of for you >>93191524 Wants-to-dip-his-toe-in-the-water anon. A lot of these games are expensive and experience tells me they don't see a lot of plays a lot of the time whereas you could other boardgames for similar price that would see more table time. And I see that >>93192981 has already told you about Vassal and GMT.
>>93196964>Honestly, the setting. Love that periodFair. I need to have more respect for gunpowder warfare. As far as my own military interests go I sit there in lorica segmentata and then animorph into a trench coat and Brodie helmet as if nothing happened in-between those 1500 years or so.>>93197495>not even the first edition which was published by GMT.To be fair that game was published in what, 1991? And yeah DVG does tiny print runs of everything just like most wargame publishers, which causes the prices to jack up. The only exception is GMT, because they’re the only ones that print in anything that resembles bulk.>Battle Line MedievalOutside of integrating the terrain fan expansion, nothing about the game is different ruleswise to the original. https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/75664/battle-line-terrain-expansionI own both and frankly Medieval is a pretty huge downgrade imo.
>>93169900Hex n Chit wargames are hex grid based, often have a pre-determined set up / deployment that you need to follow, and model a specific historical conflict or battle.Miniatures wargames don't use any grid, use tape measures for distances, and generally allow players to deploy their forces as they like, and often allow players to build their forces from a list of available units.Aside from that they're both quite similar: units move, attack, face command issues and take casualties / negative effects until one side is declared the winner based on objectives and/or losses.Hex n Chit are well suited for specific battles with pre-set deployments, and larger scales like entire theaters (Imagine all of North Africa or all of Europe, or the entire eastern front).Miniatures wargames suit (relatively) smaller scale squad to company sized engagements, maybe full armies at 6mm or 3mm scale, and are good at more freeform movement and making use of terrain, as well as more freeform army list writing and deployment. They also do the 3D aspect of space a lot better, such as multi level buildings or line of sight over undulating terrain.>>93169970>the rules are designed in such a way as to be both clear and lead to a balanced gameThat's the same as miniatures wargames (at least the good ones).Both hex n chit and miniatures wargames have clear and unclear, balanced and unbalanced rulesets.>>93170000This kinda depends on the miniatures wargame you choose to compare against. Almost any historical miniatures wargame is more realistic than 40K, and they are generally designed to be simulations with mechanics that emphasize realism. Fist full of TOWs for example.I wouldn't say either hex n chit or miniatures wargames have more novel or less novel designs, as they are (recently) both designed by game designers living in the 2000s+ who play a variety of different games, and are generally interested in history and creating a fun, historically accurate system.
Why does there seem to be such a gulf in people's minds between hex and chit and board wargaming in general? I read a lot of posting about h&c a lot but not "board wargames"
>>93198473>They also do the 3D aspect of space a lot better, such as multi level buildings or line of sight over undulating terrain.The only caveat I’d put here is that it’s entirely dependent on the quality of terrain you’re willing to make. Unless you’re willing to build a lot of densely packed buildings or lots of hills (which I’m sure some do) hex and counter is more practical for urban or very rough terrain in general.
>>93198487Hex and counter games are board wargames. If you’re asking why there isn’t as much posting about stuff like COIN or Paths of Glory it’s because those get a lot more discussion over on /bgg/. Though you do raise an interesting point. If this were ever to become a general, which I’m not entirely convinced it should, then maybe it should be Board Wargames General and not Hex and Counter General.
>>93198546Most clubs have terrain people can use if they don't want to make or buy their own, but generally being a miniatures wargamer means owning some terrain as well, the same way to play board wargames you need a table or at least a flat surface.It's true that hex n chit is more convenient: you don't have to paint or assemble anything. But with that argument you could also say that computer games are even more convenient, as you don't need to punch out any chits or set anything up or roll dice.I'm not really talking about the practicality of playing the game, just the ability to model situations like small hull down dips in the terrain or multi-level buildings which can be important in conflicts like Chechnya or other urban battles.Both types of game have strengths and weaknesses and I enjoy them both for different reasons. One huge pro for hex n chit games is that you can see all the unit's information on the chit - move distance, weapon type, defense and attack values etc. I think that's fantastic. I also really respect the historical focus of hex n chit designers, they tend to have a no-nonsense, more serious approach than miniatures wargames. I think this is due to miniatures wargames being more mainstream and companies trying to cash in Games Workshop-style on gamers who want cool miniatures. Companies like battlefront (flames or war) and warlord (bolt action) tend to not bother as much with the accuracy of the rules or good balance, but are more focused on trying to make money from miniatures sales and the "latest codex / edition". Hex n chit games tend to be self contained and that allows for more testing of the delivered product. More testing generally means better balance.Now here's a hybrid of the two! All the convenience and quick reference of a hex n chit, with the freedom of movement and list-building of a miniatures wargame.
>>93198473>Both hex n chit and miniatures wargames have clear and unclear, balanced and unbalanced rulesets.I was mostly joking in response to what I am still sure is a troll question. And yeah, there are good and bad games in both formats. In my experience though, the nuts and bolts of hex and chit tend to be better designed than the miniatures games. I suspect it's just a balance of incentives; a miniature game player spends a lot of time assembling and painting, probably far more so than actually playing. Designers know this, and spend a lot of their time and energy on designing how things look instead of how things in the game interact. But that's just some personal anecdata and speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.
>>93198473I've seen this Operation Bollebank now on multiple occasions. When is it releasing? i could only find very little information about it
Advanced Squad Leader vs Urban Operations for someone that's never played one of these? I'm willing to go full autism but other people I play with might not so I'm leaning towards Urban Operations.
>>93200047Urban Ops doesn't have dedicated solo play and features hidden info, so if you don't mind trying to play against yourself go for it.If not, ASL does have dedicated support solo play
>>93192443okay but which of these companies actually make good games?
Hot take: tactical level wargames set before WW1 are the most boring historically railroaded dogshit imaginable. There’s very little room to actually change anything, you just watch history play out. Operational level wargames are far more suited for those eras. It’s why I’m highly in favor of Levy & Campaign despite its problems. By extension, I see a lot of people disparage operational level games as being too deterministic in following history. While there are plenty of bad games that are like that, good operational games allow for a variety of strategies within the realm of plausibility.
>>93198023>nothing about the game is different ruleswiseI know, it's just that they're normally so good at this and it's odd to have the Italian pdf but not the English when some people do need to be reminded they shouldn't use tactics and terrain cards at the same time.
>>93199683Can't be too far away, I follow the some of the team on twitter and they're in late playtesting looks like. I really like the graphic design and the super niche topic of the game - literally 2 days in April 1994. The enemy AI system seems pretty cool too with that order matrix thing.
>>93203725Need more games about the Bosnian War. Outside of this I only know of Brotherhood & Unity.
Thoughts on this game? It sounds pretty cool.
>>93205497Levy & Campaign (the series Plantagenet is a part of) has its issues with some funky balance in some of the games but the overall concept and purpose is brilliant. Like I said here >>93203126 operational wargames are more well suited for pre-modern era than tactical ones. Medieval battles are boring and often lopsided. Medieval campaigns are not.
>>93202198GMT VUCAMMP
>>93203126You're right that is a hot take. Most of you ignore that you're actually playing pretend, and that making yourselves miserable over minutiae is self defeating. Can you actually ever be in the moment or do you need to deconstruct everything?
>>93205794>Medieval battles are boring and often lopsided.This place is dogshit takes central
>>93206802What the fuck does this even mean? My issue with them is that so much of the actual decision space for tactical games when they’re attempting to be historical recreations is low. Far too many battles are lopsided to one side or the other and often take place in the most boring terrain (flat plains). Your initial formations (also predetermined) severely limit what you can and cannot do as well. Once you’ve played one Gettysburg or Waterloo or Cannae game, you’ve played them all. >>93206829Sorry I don’t find helpless Scottish scheltrons get poked to death by English longbows at Falkirk engaging to play.
>>93206742what about Compass Games?
>>93206998Very hit or miss both in the quality of the games themselves as well as the quality of the productions. Generally their remakes of old games are good (except for The Korean War) and a chunk of their modern stuff is excellent (Brotherhood & Unity, Burning Banners, Blue Water Navy if you can parse the rules). But on the other hand they make a lot of mediocre crap too like all those Greg Smith solo games that play the same. Their games also tend to be extremely expensive while usually being slightly below GMT in quality. I put them in the second tier of publishers alongside Colombia and Legion
>>93198473The effect of SAGGER on a PBV 302 is exaggerated. I don't dispute its a probable mission kill, but 302s were hit by SAGGERs three times in Bosnia with the crews suffering mostly temporary incapacitations and no deaths or major injuries: Use google to translate the link: https://www.foi.se/rapportsammanfattning?reportNo=FOA-R--98-00742-310
>>93207493Maybe raise this with the game designer?From the look of that image any direct fire on a PBV 302 will destroy it, even from an HMG. It depends on the specifics of range and the exact HMG, but 30mm or amour is still decently significant when you're talking about ~12.7mm weapons.Might be down to the game design and what they want to track. Maybe tracking damage on the APCs isn't what they want you to worry about, and instead want you to use your tanks to defend the more vulnerable APCs.
>>93206875>Once you’ve played one Gettysburg or Waterloo or Cannae game, you’ve played them allProbably why each example attracts so much study /tg/ folks, not sending their bestThanks for that completely moribund opinion Never post again
>>93206998I think the criticism of Compass / Columbia is rather broad. If you are interested in a period sndnthe reviews are decent you should go for it. /tg/ is "discernment to the point of doing nothing."
>>93203126Hard disagree. If I had a choice between playing a Men of Iron scenario and a game of Levy and Campaign, I'm going to play Men of Iron every single time.Pre-gunpowder tactical games generally do run into the problem of balancing historical realism with game balance, that much I do not disagree with. The simple fact is that pitched battle, historically, would never be joined unless one side a massive advantage. But responsible and creative designers (like Berg for Men of Iron) understand this and usually load their scenarios will all sorts of optional rules and balancing choices to make the game remain like a true adaptation of the history, but still give the historical loser a fighting chance or at least the ability to not lose as bad as they did historically.This is to say nothing of my problems with L&C in general, which is a whole separate issue.
>>93198578Why do you not think there should be a hex & counter (or board wargame) general anon? The last 2 seem to be doing decent numbers
>>93198578Should be just board wargames or tabletop wargames. Among the playerbase, there really isn't a huge divide between people playing Paths of Glory and people playing ASL. It's all considered the same hobby IMO.
>>93208176i know, but finding good review for these kind of games isn't easy.a lot of them are 50 minute long slogs made by rambling boomers, and the text based reviews are more like after action reports
>>93208125>Probably why each example attracts so much study And yet, they’re all boring to play. Sad!
>>93208340I almost think that guy has never played Men of Iron or GBoH in his life. Both of those do a masterful job of making “lopsided” battles fun to play and varied. Maybe he’s just a Volko fanboy
>>93209120This like most tangential things requires patience, as we have gathered from here it only takes one or two oultlier opinions to skew your pitch as it were. >>93211015Yes, you're very clever by filtering out most pre gunpowder warfare and battlegames in general. Given that these are myareas of emphasis I doubt we will ever cross paths. What a terrible shame
>>93211044Both stellar examples, too.
>>93211044Well, he did reference Falkirk, which is valid because the Men of Iron Falkirk scenario IS very one-sided. But again, this is to my point because Berg gives you multiple paragraphs of extra rules that you can use to keep the scenario historically plausible but give the Scots a fighting chance to win.Some entries in GBoH are much worse with this than others, like SPQR.That's of course because Roman military history is pretty fucking lopsided.
>>93209120This might sound like sacrilege but I’d look for written reviews instead of videos. >>93211293They are. Some of Berg’s Bergisms drive me crazy in his Civil War games but he reigned it in for MoI and had Herman for GBoH. That really let his more interesting ideas shine with those.>>93211370Even then SPQR tries its hardest to make the battles all fun to play and replayable.
>>93211446>This might sound like sacrilege but I’d look for written reviews instead of videos.Those are fine, where can i find them besides boardgamegeek?
>>93211521>where can i find them besides boardgamegeekWhy do you think I prefaced it with “this might be sacrilege?
>>93208604I posted that when the thread looked like it was about to drop off the board and was getting shitposted by retards. It has since picked up some steam. >>93208795Agreed. It might have been an issue in the 90’s when all the grogs were seething about We the People but they’re probably dead now so who cares? It’s all practically synonymous at this point anyway.
>>93211667plebbit?
>>93211761Gulag is the sacrilege anon
>>93211521Consimworld.net if you can deal with its boomer web architecture. Vae victis magazine is independent of most publisher and has reviews. There’s odd blogs here and there maintained by weirdos like us.Honestly bgg usually only have the same five people talking about wargames. Most left by now.
>>93211521What games were you curious about?
What would you say is a good game to get my friends into wargames if they've only played Risk? I am new to them myself if I'm being honest but I've played some /bgg/-type games so I know a bit more about modern game mechanics
>>93211889Command and Colours AncientsHammer of the ScotsUndaunted Normandy
>>93211889How many players do you usually have?
>>932119913>>93211983Cheers, thanks
>>93212160>3 Triumph & Tragedy
is there a 40k wargame at this level, hex and counter?i thought i saw homebrew rules someone had made posted here once
>>93212743There may have been a couple early on in GW's time but I don't think they were ever Warhammer related. There's no reason for GW to do it either. Allowing people to play their game without the minis would make the flaws all that more apparent.
>>93211784I'm in the industry as a developer/designer for one of the last remaining hex and counter wargame companies. Even we don't use BGG for anything anymore. The animosity traditional wargames get from BGG is palpable. On many occasions, they have let slip they hate covering them on their site and wish they could get rid of them
>>93212896GW had several H&C wargames back in the late 80s early 90s. 'Battle for Armagedon' and the expansion 'Chaos Attacks', 'The Horus Heresy', 'Doom of the Eldar'.
>>93212941>source: dude trust me broAnon there's more traditional wargame companies now than there were in the 80s and 90s. The scene is literally in its second golden age.
>>93212976Huh, how about that. I was mistaken.
>>93212743>at this levelHex and counter can be whatever level you want anon
>>93212977I knew we had a problem when people asked about Warhammer hexgames and started talking about it dying as a hobby lol.
>>93213085The anon who asked about 40k hex and counter was probably just asking, but literally not a single soul who plays board wargames on the regular would ever phrase it as "one of the last remaining hex and counter wargame companies". It's not easy to effectively shitpost about things that you don't understand at all.
is there a better 40k hex game at that scale than that old GW trash that got posted?something with more detailed OOB and TO&E. not that gay/cheesy "lol orkzz!!!" shite
>>93213258No. Let it go
>>93213258>is there a better 40k hex game at that scale than that old GW trash that got posted?Unless you're getting homebrew rules, no.
>>93212338This game looks awesome, thank you
>>93213513No problem. There are other good 3 player games but their either markedly more complex or about topics that the average group of friends wont be into (pic related)
>>93213561>their jesus christ I need to take a fuckin nap
I know it isn't a hex and counter but tell me I don't need it.
>>93211797mostly beginner friendly Cold War in europe stuff. Most of the ones i've looked at seem rather intimidating and complicated
>>93217953World at War ‘85 is what you want. I know the rulebook is huge (about 100 pages!) but it’s easier to learn than games with a third of that number. It’s size is padded out due to having lots of examples and explanations of the rules within, a lot of repetition of rules when relevant, and the sheer scope of what needs to be covered. The game avoids a lot of the charts and tables that other wargames tend to have, and a lot of mechanics are resolved in similar ways. I’m not going to say it’s easy per-se but I have zero issues teaching the game to others. The game also does a decent job easing you in with its scenarios, as it doesn’t hit you with helicopters (the most complicated thing in the game) until several scenarios in. I’d check out the rulebook for the game on Lock N’ Load’s website first though to see if you feel comfortable with it.And if you don’t, well, there’s always Twilight Struggle, which isn’t a hex and counter at all but you’ll have fun with it as a game.
>>93220592I've looked at World at War before and heard of Twilight Struggle too. Tell me, do either of them have NBC weapons? afaik WaW85 is a company level game and TS is also a political game
>>93220874>TS The game automatically ends if the DECON track reaches 1 and triggers a nuclear war, and if you do that, you instantly lose. >WaW '85Chemical weapons are used as off-map artillery strikes in some scenarios (or in scenarios you generate, the game has an excellent system for that) but no nukes. The Third World War, a meaty but also very playable game, does have nuclear and chemical weapons as part of its optional rules. There's also Red Strike, which not only has nuclear and chemical weapons but also complex rules for their launch systems, but that is definitely not a game I'd recommend to a novice.
I been thinking in making a bg like sacrifice (a powerful mage/demi-god, and lots of monsters) of course at first I tought about minis, but Chits have a lot of charm too. Anyone knows any game than get that feeling of gods battling each other with monsters and magic?
>>93220874Look at meltwater.Ever encroaching fallout is a key part of the game.
>>93222062Most hex and counter games are historical, not fantasy. That being said check out Burning Banners. It might not be exactly what you’re looking for but the advanced rules add hero units, magic, and monsters to an already fairly asymmetric fantasy hex and counter game.
I'm glad to see this thread doing well but do any of you retards actually play or do you just argue endlessly? I threw my discord username up at the beginning of the thread, looking for someone who's actually down to play. Ideally someone who's not a foggy old boomer or a grotesque autistic retard (which is primarily the player base I've encountered on other forum sites and IRL) but I'll take what I can get. I own ASL and lots of GMT games but up for just about anything
>>93223053>plays ASLanon you ARE the foggy old boomer or grotesque autistic retard
>>93223206Alright fair but if any anon's wanna play I'd be happy to do so
I'm asking for more people's opinons. Do you prefer the font in this chit/counter?
>>93223835
>>93223835>>93223840Some notes >whatever the hell is going on in the top left, stop it, its impossible to read>keep the NATO symbol and the national flag split, shrink the national flag substantially, or get ride of the flag and use a specific color for each nation if necessary>Not a fan of the sword going straight though the 10, I'd move it to the side of the number >Everything else is fine but IDK what the numbers mean so their positioning might need to be changed depending on their importance.
>>93223979It's lightyears better than this, correct?
>>93224034Yes, especially with how close those numbers are all clumped together
>>93224034My advice would be to shrink the chit down to actual size on your screen so you can see what it's supposed to look like at scale and if you can still read anything.I think your NATO symbol should be the size of the entire counter, more like pic related - I just quickly whipped this up as an exampleI took your flag and made it the background, dulled the color a little so things are more readable.Use a bold outline font like Asectica Outline, or another outline font (search for 'outline fonts' on free font websites). I filled in the inside of an outline font with solid color so it stands out.Numbers need to be BIG if this thing is going to be less that 1" x 1", probably my numbers could even be bigger.Then instead of a slash you can differentiate different numbers by inverting the color. The small A and S will never be seen, so might need an icon for those, or just teach the players what means what.We know it's marine infantry (or amphibious infantry?) from the nato symbol, so removed these. Marine infantry would usually have an anchor, and the squiggly line denotes amphibious.There is a NATO symbol generator tool here that could be useful:https://spatialillusions.com/unitgenerator/#30031000001211004660
>>93224683>>93224034Also please note I'm not a professional designer and my ideas are probably wrong - have a look at other chits by the pros and see what they do. You can see how uncluttered they are - flag icon bottom left, flat colored background, icon in center, and using inverted colors to denote numbers for different purposes.
>>93224683>I think your NATO symbol should be the size of the entire counterI’m sorry anon but I think that’s horrid advice to give that guy. Besides some symbols being impractical for that size (i.e. rotary wing) it’s just not that easy to read. The numbers obscure large portions of the symbol and if you keep the country flag it also bleeds into it. I can’t think of a single game that’s done it like that and I don’t think it’s an accident. I agree with you on the font though. That’s a significant improvement. >>93224705>Traces of WarYes definitely use VUCA sims as a guidepost. Their counters are excellent.
>>93224034>>93224750Also since this appears to be a modern conflict game check out the counters for Next War. They color code each nation’s counters.
>>93224683>My advice would be to shrink the chit down to actual size on your screen so you can see what it's supposed to look like at scale and if you can still read anything.I think your NATO symbol should be the size of the entire counter, more like pic related - I just quickly whipped this up as an exampleNot to be that guy, but no one does that and I think it's for a very good reason. I've used my chits in table top simulator and looked at them from different angles or zooms.I've looked at modern and super old H&C stuff, and it looks similar to my new or old chits. Which is why I designed my chits the way they are.However, I do see why you picked the font you picked and why you say the numbers should be bigger. (There is no space to make them bigger, which is why they are this size btw. However, I do like the font you picked and it matchs some of the best H&C games I've looked at. >Then instead of a slash you can differentiate different numbers by inverting the color.Other systems do this, but I think I didn't do it because I kept forgetting which number was which for some reason. I should honestly consider going back to considering it. >The small A and S will never be seen, so might need an icon for those, or just teach the players what means what.Which is why that's the old chit and new chits color code the numbers, or have a sword, or have a boars head.
>>93224771>You should color code the nations counters>Ignores that fact that I am clearly copying multiple systems but not color coding the chits.I don't color code the chits because then I'd need like six different nations or factions to be red. However, like many men in this world, I can't tell a lot of colors apart or I can tell them apart but I forget which red or pastel is meant to be China or the Taliban or whatever.>>93224771I've looked at a lot of systems, let me show you the system that contains as much information as this system and thus was the chit I looked at the most. Now I think you can see why the numbers were too close together once upon a time.
>>93224824What is each number supposed to mean anyway?>>93224868I think that was because the cuts on counters from old games used to be really fucking shit. Everything had to be centralized because if they weren't it was likely that information would get lost due to mediocre printing. Not as much as an issue anymore though.
>>93224824not one of the other people that have replied but the top left text is unreadable, and that 19 with a red bull icon behind is cluttered. If that was a single digit number you'd have trouble reading it. I think you might have too much wasted space still, the important numbers could be bigger. (I know you posted a one you dont like but those numbers arent really bigger, but they are cramped too close together)
>>93224978This image needs to be changed, but it explains it reasonably well. >>93225073People keep posting chits that have smaller numbers than the ones I post.
>>93225091I dont really see it, sorry. some might have smaller numbers but im assuming these are less important. They usually all have much larger major numbers proportionally to the size of the chit. Just trying to help dude, best advice I could possibly give is to print some samples out at the physical size and see what issues occur.
>>93224750I meant like this. These look like small numbers or about the same size.
>>93225229ah. fairly close but still marginally bigger proportionally. Not much in it though.
>>93225091Do all units double their medium range for their long range? Because if so I’d just drop the long range number entirely.
>>93225091>>93225282Maybe use the whole counter like WaW ‘85?
It's interesting to me how much hate ASL gets these days, and arguably for pretty valid reasons, yet no series has been able to meaningfully crack into the WW2 tactical scene in a way that calls into substantially question ASL's dominance.
>>93228093Combat Commander came close, but content slowed to a trickle when Chad’s health started to decline.
>>93228093ASL has a few key advantages:>It’s designed like a lifestyle game. You pay a lot of money for the rules and the modules and learning the game is such an investment that it discourages you from trying something else>ASL, and Squad Leader before it, were simply superior to every other tactical wargame in the 80’s mechanically. That, coupled with the unprecedented level of support the game received from wargaming’s biggest publisher, Avalon Hill, ensured its superiorityIn the modern day I think ASL’s inertia keeps it relevant but I also think it’s slowly declining. It had about 20 years or so of unmatched dominance but a lot of young wargamers aren’t interested in it (despite the existence of ASLSK) and are playing different games. The reason no one tactical game has reached that level of success is because the genre is saturated with quality. Combat Commander, Band of Brothers, Conflict of Heroes, Last Hundred Yards, Old School Tactical, Lock n’ Load, etc… are all good and attract their own audience.
>>93228093>>93229683A friend of mine plays it. I hear about how crazy granular it is. I kind of expect that from hex and counter, tabletop for me is more about the spectacle and those cinematic moments when your guys punch above their weight. When I want crunch, I turn to these games. THAT SAID it's probably one of those things where people sell it as super complicated but is it? You can leave modules out
>>93230246>I hear about how crazy granular it is. I kind of expect that from hex and counter, tabletop for me is more about the spectacle and those cinematic moments when your guys punch above their weightDespite ASL’s crunch one of the things it does right is sell the cinematic experience. There is a lot of wild stuff that can happen in ASL.The trade off is that ASL has a lot of gamey bullshit in it and it’s fans will never allow it to be fixed. >where people sell it as super complicated but is it? You can leave modules outThe basic rules are still 100 pages of small font and filled with acronyms If you want a great story, Combat Commander does it just as well with a fraction of the rules
Combat Commander never clicked for me. Something about needing cards to move and shoot in a tactical-scale fire fight just seems wrong to me. Not to mention combat resolution is really way too overly simplistic. These games really need CRTs instead of just 'hit the magic number' systems.ASL, on the other hand, is a great example of an extensive rules overhead just ending up making the game more complicated, and not necessarily more realistic. There's something to be said about playing HnC games as a -game- and not a simulation, but there are moments where ASL really pretty clearly gets boiled down to competitive puzzle-solving, instead of a WW2 military game.
>These games really need CRTs instead of just 'hit the magic number' systems.I could not disagree more. I think tactical games that avoid CRTs should be commended. When you’re trying to simulate a firefight a level of immediacy and violence should be achieved and frankly I believe they produce just as if not more realistic results than a CRT would.
https://www.projectrho.com/nomogram/index.html
>>93230994>There's something to be said about playing HnC games as a -game- and not a simulationIt’s not something to be said, it’s everything to be said. The only wargames that are successful are those people find fun. While those games can have simulationist elements, I find that people play them for fun first and then delude themselves into thinking it’s in any way realistic later.
Can i get a quick rundown on ASL? What makes it so special and beloved? It can't only be the cool box art, can it?
>>93233883It came at a time when classic wargaming was starting to decline. It was better than any other tactical game of its day and received an insane amount of support as a result.It’s gotten 40 years of content with almost zero changes to its rules. That makes it a lifestyle for those that play it and repulsive to those that don’t.
>>93223835In your game list the colour schemes of your factions, if say the Russians had separate forces in them you can change the colouring inside the Nato symbol to differentiate them, if there are only a small number of counters for these units you could just use a small symbol to denote them, a star, a knife etc. Which ever colour scheme you come up with try to have the colours close to their flags. In Illusions of Glory for example units have a unit identifier (mostly for historical accuracy) a counter colour (white for the russians), combat, loss and movement factor, and unit symbol. The symbol colour would be brown if it was a reserve unit, red for cavalry, blue for elite, yellow for special unit.So a Russian cavalry unit would be a white counter with a NATO symbol for cav that is coloured red for easy identification.
>>93233883650+ pages of rule book. Even learning the game becomes a lifestyle.
>>93225572I don't know what you mean by "use the whole counter". Do you mean get rid of the black border?I honestly want to like that system and LnLT but I keep forgetting what the numbers mean.
>>93228093Lock n Load Tactical. When I first saw ASL, I was like "This is just overly complicated LnL T". A system that is basically free to play in some variants, has a ton of content, can be played online easily, ect ect.>>93231011I HATE wargames that require me to look at a table...>>93234631Entirely possible. Like I said earlier, there is enough factions that confusing colors very much is a concern. A lot of systems that color code the back of the chit have like 8 factions max or something like that. Also, coloring the back of the chit fights against the black text.
>>93238614>use the whole counterI mean spread the numbers to all four corners on the counter instead of cramming them all into the bottom half. >I honestly want to like that system and LnLT but I keep forgetting what the numbers mean.That just means you have to play more.
>>93238671>I HATE wargames that require me to look at a table...Sometimes a CRT is inevitable. Operational wargames I’d say benefit massively from the granularity they add to combat. But there are other ways to achieve that granularity in tactical wargames that don’t necessitate the usage of a CRT
I got a question about World at War 85, after one anon here suggested it. All things considered, getting just the rulebook and maybe the solo assitant with VASSAl seems like the way to go. now i wonder if i need anything besides the correct VASSAL module to also use the expansions (mostly the german units interest me, they had cool M48 upgrades)
live
>>93239152Do the combined rules also include the scenarios? Cause I don't think they do. Double check that before buying something.
>>93239170Thread is in autosage anon. Time to see if Board Wargames General can last.
>>93239152>>93239197Actually I'm mistaken apparently the companion book does have the scenarios and is specifically designed for VASAL play
>>93239204Speaking of I am going to start baking the first edition of /bwg/. Lets see if it actually works.
>>93239365OP here, thank you and good luck anon. I'll be sure to contribute and hopefully we can make this a regular thread
