Seriously bro what the fuck happened to this hobby
>>98268800the biggest company in the market decided that "games" were for people who don't buy hordes of plastic just to sit on unopened boxesso they changed their business model to cater to retarded people who think watching pootube and reading shit tier 40kuck books means they're part of a community built around playing a fucking game they don't playgw is for retarded people and spergs and it keeps them out of better gaming spaces, just like MTG
perryfag thread
>>98268811And DnD
>>98268811post minis
>>98268839yea you shouldbtw if you bought models from gw in the past 10 years you're a faggot
>>98268800What's wrong with this, exactly? Post your table with a timestamp when you reply, please.
>>98268851>if you bought models from gw in the past 10 years you're a faggotcame here to post thisi hope they make female space marines nextyou fags deserve it
>>98268811>retarded people who think watching pootube and reading shit tier books means they're part of a community built around playing a fucking game they don't playHey this sums up modern /tg/ pretty well.
>>98268949yesthese spaces have been infested by tourists who have no actual interest in them but think they are nuage quirk chungus for engaging in the periphery of a hobby while doing everything they can to actively not engage with what made these things popular in the first placejust look at the retards who watch "flashgitz" and don't even touch models
>>98268800This looks soulful and amazing thoughbeit
>>98268817Anyone facing the choice between perryfag an OP's pic who chooses the pic should be executed. Right after perryfag, sure, but you should still also die - he plays at SOVL for trolling, you simply don't have one.
>>98268800It is better than 10th edition with the L-shaped ruins randomly put in the table. At least this looks like they are ruined buildings that were part of a city.
>>98269308>It is better thanThe problem with this line of thinking is that it enables a constant lowering of the bar in the guise of improvement.>release dogshit>people complain that it's dogshit>wait a while>people get used to the dogshit, even if they still grumble>now release dogshit rolled in rhinestones>amazing, they finally listened, 10/10, go out and buy now>wait a while>people continue to discuss the current rhinestone dogshit as an improvement over the dogshit>eventually release rancid dogshit, but shaped like the rhinestone dogshit>people complain again>wait a while>people get used to the rancid dogshit, but because it's shaped like the rhinestone dogshit, there's debate about whether dogshit or rancid dogshit is worse>release rancid dogshit rolled in rhinestones>we're SO back, a new golden age, you can see the iterative improvement over the years, remember how awful dogshit was? this is the culmination of the dogshit to rhinestone dogshit to rancid dogshit shaped like rhinestone dogshit throughline of perpetual improvement>wait a while>release diseased, rancid dogshit shaped like the rhinestone rancid dogshit and with a "Proudly No AI" stickerAnd so on and so on
>>98269628you're forgetting the part where dogshit, whether rancid or not, will eventually turn white and stop smelling bad. 12th edition is going to be a banger, trust the plan.
>>98268800the moment something that was casual and fun becomes competitive, it turns to shit
>>98268800This picture makes modern/competition fags screech because it’s like a mirror being held up to their face
>RUINSRUINSRUINSRUINSRUIBSRUINSBring back the alien fauna and military outposts Im sick of oops all Stalingrad.
>>98268811>MTG>not a toxic collection of sperms itself1/10 troll, apply yourself
>>98270234>reading comprehension nice try esl-kun. try again!
>>98269978yeah thiswhat the hell are the factions even fighting over if the entire galaxy is nothing but ruins?
>>98268800>We can charge whatever we want: $1,000 a box, $2000 a box.
>>98269978That's the least of the problems, the fact that it's always arranged in some nonsense League of Legends arena symmetrical layout is much more offensive and eye-raping. Can you imagine how cringe it would be if these subhumans made a jungle board and forced it 100% symmetrical?
>>98270488why is symmetry bad?
>>98270488Terrain areas are actually quite a nice compromise between balance and actually nice terrain if you think about it.You can have a forest on each side of the map and as long as the terrain footprints are symmetrical the actual placement of terrain can be whatever looks best. I'm actually really warming up to this new system.
>>98270541It ruins creativity and reminds me that 90% of 40k players are vermin who are playing with unpainted models to win no stakes casual games with maximum sweatiness.
>>98270541It can change the way you play the game. Plus depending one how everything set up, it might make it easier or harder to beat someone cause of choke points among other things.
>>98270541How many actual battles throughout history can you think of that took place on a symmetrical map like it's a fucking video game, you braindead retard?40k is not a video game made for competition, it's a narrative tabletop hobby game made to feel like you're simulating war in a fantastical future universe. Its main draw is immersion through the rich lore and the ability to customize your miniatures with your own conversions and paint schemes to tell an emergent war story.How the fuck are you going to play on a perfectly symmetrical board and not find it cringe? You are a brain rotted/v/ tourist if your immediate thought isn't "this looks like shit" and "wouldn't the soldiers be pointing out how fucking weird it is this part of the battle space is perfectly mirrored?"
>>98270541Because in theory this is a wargame.The entire point is war simulation, how autistic the simulation is depends on the wargame.Having symmetrical layouts is so far removed from a wargame that might as well drop it and play StarCraft 2 or League of Legends.Even grid cities do not end being symmetrical. Fucking commie blocks are not this symmetrical and they are soulless constructions that even the Borg would find disgusting.The worst part is the boards are so abstracted that they even fail to simulate a ruined city. As you can see neither of this ones >>98268800 >>98269844 even look like a city block.Compared it to old urban boards, they might no use actual scenery for roads, but the placement of the structure leave the proper space for them.The entire concept of this symmetrical boards is just ass in all forms of execution.
>>9827055611th is some how a shittier version of 4th terrain.The issue is not area terrain itself, but the bizarre combination of True Line of Sight (retarded concept in miniature wargame), symmetrical boards, no attempt of simulation of a urban layout and poorly implemented area terrain.
>>98270556>as long as it is symetrical>>Captain, the orks are approaching. Should we ambush them while they cross the gulch or should we wait until they are open in the fields?>>We fight them at the destroyed town center. There should be enough and fair distributed cover for them and us. Also send them all informations about our forces and artefacts before we fight.
>>98270836Kek, thisKill all fucking compfags
>>98268800Tourneyfags being the biggest paypigs and thus drive the market
>>98270836Of course asymmetrical scenarios are the truest kino but they take a little more time and effort to set up, I think at least 80% of games have always been played on roughly balanced terrain. I'm happy to be wrong about this if you have some good examples of fun asymmetric support in older warhammer editions or other games.>Also send them all informations about our forces and artefacts before we fight.It's a little hard to truly ambush your opponent unless you literally jump out from behind a cardboard standee and attack them while they're coming into the game shop.
>>98270867>take a little more time and effort to set upIf 10 years old can figure it out I'm sure an adult can.
>>98270886Okay man. I asked for examples and I guess your anecdotal thing about ten year olds kind of works.
>>98270926It was literally in the old rulebooks... not a hard thing to figure out.Mind you this was the most basic bitch way to set up a board.
>>98270926>>98270939Even a section for kids to make terrain out of books and a cloth.Inevitably it would result in asymmetrical terrain
>>98270951And who prevents kids today to read this?
>>98270962who prevents is such a retarded take. who prevents reading old white dwarfs? legally, its GW stopping you. sure you can find old issue or pirate them. but with any new wargamers, you dont know what you dont know. if you see every game is gw terrain, you assume oh thats the game
>>98270962Their own reading and computer skills.Apparently newer generation are objectively more retarded.No wonder they get anxiety if the terrain is not symmetrical, they might need to think!
>>98269279>Anyone facing the choice between perryfag an OP's pic who chooses the pic should be executed. The thing is you don't need to choose either lol.
>>98270752You can't simulate something that doesn't exist. 40k has never been a simulation nor has it aimed to be.
>>98270939This is a page instructing you how to place terrain in a standardized way. This is literally what you're arguing against
>>98269667Dog turds don't turn white anymore, there's regulations on how much bone meal you can put in pet food
>>98270843This. E-sports looked like they could become big for a hot minute ten years ago, and so the management caste decided that Warhammer would also become esports. I’ve had these arguments over the decades with people who wanted GW to chase the competitive and balanced dragon and I hope they all love it now that they got it
>>98268800I don't know, why don't you voice your own fucking opinion on what happened?
>>98270570but if it's symmetrical, you both have access to the same choke points by definition.
>>98270698I'm not recreating actual battles, I'm playing a game. It has a victory condition, so it is a competition.
>>98270752No, the point is fair competition according to a set of rules. You know, a game.
>>98271336Yeah that's the problem. No variation, no tactics, nothing but MOBA-esque mirror match shit
>>98271048>84% of people do not understand what they readHello Mr. 84%
>>98269308L shaped ruins have a lot of useful properties for even the most casual LAAC games. They block a LOS from two sides in an area large enough to hide a unit, they introduce verticality, they're easy to place models on, and they can be built from leftover cardboard boxes and hot glue or built to disassemble flat for easy storage.L shaped ruins solve a shocking amount of problems without a ton of effort in building and storing them.
>>98271027>you can't simulate something that does not existWhat kind of retarded argument is this?
>>98271027Midwit take. An intelligent person can extrapolate from real world historical simulation what would be the likely environment created from fantastical elements using willing suspension of disbelief. You are self-reporting your lack of creativity and discernment.
>>98271048Damn you aren't very bright are you?
>>98270752You're getting shot off the table Turn 1 with those layouts.>>98270759TLOS isn't the problem so much as the dramatic increase in consistent offensive output that really ramped up in 5e with Guard leafblower lists as the canary in the coal mine. Arguably Rhino Rushes in 3e, but i think that's less egregious because there were interesting nuances to the assault phase and sweeping advances that were more interactive than tabling someone in the shooting phase.
>>98269071Yeah not even refering to 40kids just most of tg posters in general.
>>98268800Besides being a little sparse and homogenous, its a perfectly fine looking table? I dont get it. Ive played with wooden blocks, books, lincoln logs, and train tracks when I was a kid.
>>98271339You are a retard.
If your goal is to actually play games then the micky mouse clubhouse cardboard cutouts are the most convenient. This matters when playing against randoms, since you don't know how much they will try to game good looking terrain in their favor.
>>98271661>I don't get it We know.
>>98270249To win the war.
>>98271771So dont play against randoms? It's not that kind of game.
>>98271771>This matters when playing against randomsWhy are you playing against randoms?
>>9826880040k is fucking gay now just like everything else I guess we should do what everyone else is and blow eachother while waiting for the UBI that'll never happen. We'll get costco gulags and breadlines first but at least we'll have been blown lots.
>>98269071>oy vey! You must show Proof of Purchase™ of Official Products™ to post on Sicilian Bread Basket Weaving Forums
>>98273498>making stuff up in your head to be upset aboutwarham fans
>>98273498That's not what he said, O valued commenter. The point is that if you really are engaged with the hobby, then you should have something to show for it. Even if it's not a miniature bought from any company, even a hand-drawn battle map, or self-made models sculpted from clay or even papercraft would be enough to prove you're not a filthy fucking secondary.
>>98270867>I think at least 80% of games have always been played on roughly balanced terrain2-5e player here. It depends on how you define "balanced". People mostly shot for something vaguely fair that looked decent. But symmetrical was *absolutely* not the norm. For starters, no-one had that kind of terrain collection, nor did anyone actually want one. You also usually rolled up the mission before picking a list or setting up terrain -- several missions had unusual force org charts in 3/4e that might heavily alter your list.The most common systems were some mix of>Mutual AgreementYou both put terrain on the table and move it around until everyone agrees it looks good. Dice off for starting positions (this is NOT the same as dicing for initiative). Most common among people who're used to playing with each other, not so much in pickup games>The Thieves' BargainOne player sets up the terrain. The other choses their deployment zone first. Particularly popular if you're heading over to a friend's place with limited time to play, or otherwise have one person with more free time than the other.>semi-randomPut terrain relatively evenly-spaced on the table, use scatter dice to move it around randomly. Optional: players get another few pieces (usually 1-3 or 1D3) and can alternate placing them after the main pieces get dropped.>full randomTable is divided into sectors, roll on a table to see what piece you put down, then scatter it. Assumed to be for enormous faggots who couldn't stop arguing about shit long enough to throw dice. >scenario-specificAsymmetrical scenarios often called for more specific terrain layouts, like buildings or fortifications in certain parts of the board>TournamentsFor tournaments you normally had many different tables set up, and rotated people through both sides of each table to be sure no-one had an unfair advantage overall.
>>98269844I have visited two """local""" (both are hours away, lol) games stores, and that picture don't convey just how demotivating it was to see the one store who had several "dioramas" with unpainted MDF buildings, when compared with the one who at least had painted their terrain.
>>98271345comp fags deserve what they get
>>98271415So maybe use a bigger table where everyone can't charge into melee or hose each other at pistol ranges on turn one? Give space to maneurver, make use of the long range of support weapons and artillery, concealment, ambush etc.Yeah, I know GW won't like it, having to chuck out all the "this is how we play' product advertisment 4x4 tables in their showrooms, but if you want a better game, you have to move away from the autist enabling GW sales focused playing methods.
>>98273420Been playing since 1sr edition. All my old gaming buddies either moved away or died. Time is not a friend of the typical fat and sedentary gamer.
>>98270752Ha, can you imagine trying to enforce half movement or a risk of immobilisation rule using that random terrain marshland board on today's gaming community or tournament? The tantrums would be epic.
>>98275087Reject TournamentsEmbrace Wargame
>>98275087The funniest thing about this board is that in theory you are suppose to build an army list after you know the mission and board you are playing.Since older mission had different Force Organization Charts that could change how your army is built. Same way if you are playing in the night or with too much difficult terrain, you add searchlights and dozer blades to your vehicles.
>>98268800warmachine players broke containment.
>>98275056>So maybe use a bigger table where everyone can't charge into melee or hose each other at pistol ranges on turn one?Leafblower lists were a problem on the bigger 48x72 tables of 3-8th editions. Actually, the current missions and scoring are some of the least friendly to leafblower lists it's ever been in 40k, and that's even on the 44x60 tables. Assault phase leafblowers have rarely been the problem for several editions; it's usually lists that table you in the shooting phase.>make use of the long range of support weapons and artilleryOh, you're a Guardfag that's mad he can't table people with melta vet drivebys and artillery like 5e lol.
>>98275380I 'member 3th edition Tau. Devilfish + hammerheads + markerlights was hilarious.
>>98268800Nothing new DESU. I went to a 40K meetup in the 2000's where the organizer had all these special maps with custom rules and terrain like a trench network and a moon-base with low gravity. The competitive neckbeards bailed when they saw the tables and rules and only 4 people ended up playing. And Warmachine was usually played on empty fields too. Kinda sad since proper steampunk vibes/terrain could have really made it immersive and kept the game healthy when Steampunk and Victorian stuff was huge in the early 10's.
>>98275470You are not talking about fish of fury are you?Because shooting under your own skimmer was not something the rules allowed
>>98268800Corporate enshitification. Post models.
>>98275581>You are not talking about fish of fury are you?No, just in general. being able to disgorge a dozen troops with pulse rifles and a stacking accuracy buff while a railgun with a 72" range snipes armor was hilarious. The submunitions for the hammerhead were also busted, as I recall.
Shit like this just demonstrates how boring modern 40k is now. It isn't a wargame; it's a board game. If people really wanted to gauge their competitive ability and creativity, you'd play on a wide variety of tables with different kinds of terrain and vastly different layouts. Wargames are meant to simulate wars, no one fucking fights on stupid fucking symmetrical maps, that's not how it works.
>>98277255I remember during the Medusa V campaign GW had just released it city ruins plastic boxes and how dense they suggested the terrain should be. It made horde armies almost unkillable there was so much 4+ cover everywhere. GW just didnt care because they were trying to push their new kits.
the only good way to do terrain is to have a bucket of pieces and have each player take turns placing them down, with certain restrictions
>>98277255Propose the logistics of how this would work for an 8-player bracket (Swiss would be most natural, but you can pick), so the asymmetric missions balance out and you can run it in 9 or fewer hours for a one-day event.
>>98277284I don't care, anon. I think people who play 40k competitively are dumb faggots.
>>98277291You think your ideas for these varied tables better test player skill, and increase fun with their table variety, but you don't have the balls to actually make or defend any concrete proposals, probably because they'd be obviously retarded when they don't exist as an imaginary bridge over an imaginary river.
>>98277291this, CAAC lost the WAAC vs CAAC war and this is the result for the entire community. Competitive fags deserve suffering and povery.
>>98277291You are pathetic because you are paradoxically being a try hard at being a casual. Get fucked.
>>98277284>bracket >balance out I would get rid of all that faggot shit and put all 8 players on the same table at the same time
>>98268800The best thing you can do to learn about proper table set-ups is to play Infinity.It's a dog shit game for turbo autists but the care they put into a proper set up teaches you a lot.You will learn how great a-symmetrical tables are, that they are more than just "unbalanced", because they force you to make choices from the go.You will understand the placement of buildings, fire lanes and ranges better, you will know how to properly set up scatter terrain and what a healthy density is.It will turn the board from an L shaped nightmare into an active part of the experience.And as soon as you have learned that: stop playing Infinity.
>>98277536>inshittity shilling
>>98277536Nah, just keep playing Infinity. It doesn't get better than that.
>>98277155Guessing you are talking about buffing the shot of the hammerhead and not the firewarriors.Since markerlights during 3rd turn a single weapon into a +2 hit. It only matter for the solid shot railgun though since 3rd and 4th ordnance scatter regardless of BS.submunitions was S6 AP4 that scatter as bad as any other ordnance weapon
>>98277284I mean we did event during 5th in my third world country with proper terrain.Considering our country had like 180 ish dollars a month during 2008So I find extremely disgusting when I see this shit >>98269844 in the first world or my local store.
>>98277486>I would get rid of all that faggot shit and put all 8 players on the same table at the same timeBased, dare I say. Large scale combat with multiple armies is kino.
>>98277255i think there was a way suggested in a rulebook somewhere to make tables where players alternated placing pieces of terrain, and then at the end who got which side/corner was randomized. kinda sounds practical and neat to me
>>98275503>I went to a 40K meetup in the 2000's where the organizer had all these special maps with custom rules and terrain like a trench network and a moon-base with low gravity. The competitive neckbeards bailed when they saw the tables and rules and only 4 people ended up playing. Same, but I don't remember anyone being mad about it. Here's a picture from a 2010 5th edition tournament: six tables with unique rules that everyone would be rotated through over course of the weekend. There was obviously a lot more tables to accommodate more simultaneous players, but all of the tables were one of these six rule types and the terrain looked roughly similar. Would you prefer playing on these? Yes, you have to keep the rules.
>>98277943It didn't scatter, that was 5th ed. 5ed was trash desu.
>>98275581It was allowed at least during 4th and it is a meme. I play a lot of 4th currently, we even had a tournament, the thing is, the other side can shoot back through your devilfish, any template will obliterate your expensive out of cover fire warrior squad, and the devilfish is also exposed, apart of that the fire power of firewarriors even in rapid fire range is surprisingly anemic unles you are shooting at cheap chaff.
>>98269844This shit is sad as fuck and I don't think GW can turn it around eitherMaybe if they spent a whole edition focused on narrative games and asymmetrical scenarios
>>98278576Nah, it's unfortunate that they destroyed own of my favorite childhood passions, but the positive is that it created a containment zone for all the type of players that we don't want playing other games. We let the unwashed masses have Warhammer and that leaves all the alternative wargames and historicals for the select few passionate hobbyists, the true wargaming enthusiasts.
>>98278485>any template will obliterate your expensive out of cover fire warrior squadThe fire warriors will be in cover due to the devilfish.As will any targets the fire warriors are shooting at.
>>98268811>>98268949>>98269071To be fair, those models are prohibitively expensive. I can afford an army, but even if I did buy one I'd have no one to play with because my friends can't afford them.
>>98278621Vehicles grant no cover in 4th edition including skimmers.
>>98268949is that fish real?
>>98278682False. Vehicles are explicitly mentioned as granting cover on page 25, and it was well-established during the time of 4th edition that the fish of fury strat grants cover.
>>98278907>>98278682The point of fish of fury was to prevent squishy fire warriors being charged after the rapidfired
>>98278939Correct. I was just pointing out that RAW, and probably RAI, skimmers provide cover when you shoot under them, because cover is based on whether the firer's line of sight crosses over a source of cover in such a way that the target is partially obscured. Not whether line of sight is partially blocked, but whether the target is visually, partially obscured.
>>98278939Look, I have play it many times, it's not great, it's not the most powerful way to play tau, in fact most armies will melt your firewarrior blob. Unless marked, Firewarriors fail to kill everything but the cheapest of the chaff while being an expensive investment. In the other hand, eldar have unkilleable transports + Harlequins or firedragons that can kill anything in the game. Fish of fury is trash, it has always been trash, if you disagree go play with it against a non brain dead rival and experience how trash it is.
>>98278963In 4th ed Models do NOT grant cover. Including vehicles, unless those are destroyed and remain as ruins.
>>98279218There are exceptions. In the Ork 3rd edition codex (they never got a 4th) warbikes granted a 5+ cover save to any models on the other side of them because they threw up so much exhaust and dirt.
>>98279218They do if you follow RAI rather then RAW
>>98279256What are you talking about retard, it's even on the FAQs, player models can block LOS but do not grant cover saves in 4th ed. If you are talking about the mention of "vehicles" of the cover table, that refers to scenary, not player models. And even then skimmers do NOT block LOS as stated on the rulebook. In short you don't have a clue.
>>98279231Slightly different as technically bikes are fast, tough infantry rather than vehicles, but yes they gave a cover save like 3rd edition grots did
>>98279324Back then I always fielded a Big Mek with KFF and would position him to give both my 30 boy units of slugga and shoota boys cover as they advanced up the table. The other Ork player in the group used his Warbikes the same way since he ran a speed freaks army. I miss the older editions.
>>98269308It just need some work to fill the empty spaces between the walls. Add some sand, rocks, and some bits to represent rubble, maybe a destroyed Rhino or Chimera in the larger ruins, and it'd look about the same as most of the terrain in the tournaments I played in 5th to 8th edition.
>>98270698People have been playing 40k in a tournament setting for most of the game's lifespan, and in tournaments want the terrain to no provide an advantage to one side so the game won't get decided by the Ork player loosing the roll to pick a board edge and deploying in an open field again a Tau gunline in heavy cover, even if thematically that makes sense. Narrative and campaign games are a different matter, but you shouldn't really be surprised that tourney games use boards that are built for gameplay rather than realism.
>>98270698This is why when I play with my group we take turns picking terrain peices off the shelf and placing them before we roll for deployment. Nobody makes death fortress in case they're not the one who gets it.
>>98273700That's more or less how it worked when I played from 4th to 8th edition. Tournament boards usually tried to be balanced in the sense both sides of the table had similar amounts of terrain, with terrain being scattered roughly evenly around the board. It wasn't exactly symmetrical, or very realistic (real cities wouldn't have random buildings in odd angles next to small patches of forests or hills), but it worked for playing and still looked better than mirrored boards of nothing but L-shaped ruins arranged across a. Empty kill-zone.
>>98278471You could not move and shoot, and it also scatter.During 3rd. In 4th you could move and shoot and if you move it scatter harder
>>982784854th literally says your own vehicles block line of sight.Shooting under skimmers was cheating. Since neither 3rd or 4th had an exception for shooting under skimmers
>>98279423Learn to read you dumb fuck.
>>98279428He must have had a melty playing against Tau in 3rd and 4th.
>>98279178Markerlight for tau on 3rd only give the 2+ to hit to single weapon used by a model.So only on Rifle within the 12 firewarrior would shoot on a +2Did not one read the rules?
>>98279420Retards like you unable to read are the reason why 40k sucks since the release of 5th edition to our current year 20 20 and six of our lord and saviour jesus christ. Rail guns are not ordenance, just heavy guns.
>>98279438We are talking 4th edition faggot
>>98270962Disingenuous and judaized response. Maybe you need an FAQ from GW to explain things to you
>>98271027You must be fun to watch movies with lol
>>98271339Let’s see those painted models…. Oh wait lol
>>98271027First order thinker detected.
>>98277284The compfag mind should be studied by scientists.
>>98279420Only ordnance and guess weapons scattered and the railgun was neither, the submunition shot rolled to hit and then placed the blast marker over a model in the target unit just like every other regular blast weapon in 4th edition. It was 5th edition that made it so that every single blast weapon scattered no matter what.
>>98277466>the people who whale buy entire armies and never paint them for one 3 month cycle are the REAL gamists anon you’re just a tourist because you WANT to avoid this Please define casual as per an official gw FAQ, I refuse to discuss this further until we have had GW clarify the meaning of the word tourist and what the compfag keyword means.
CAAC players are the lowest of the low. They are paradoxically try hards at being casual. They will claim not pointing out mistakes their opponents make before the phase ends is WAAC. They call list tailoring WAAC when the game is in a state of polar extremes with lists like Knights and Guard tank spam existing in the same game as Green Tide and GSC.Their CAAC is a massive cope over the fact the game has gone to shit over the last 10 years. They need to find a new hobby if they can only play 40k in an extremely niche set of unspoken rules.
It warms my heart to see fa/tg/uys still arguing about fish of fury in the year 2026.Personally I choose to believe it was cheating because that shit was aids
>>98279505>They call list tailoring WAAC when the game is in a state of polar extremes with lists like Knights and Guard tank spam existing in the same game as Green Tide and GSC.Casuals will ignore this with the lazy response of "no one I play with runs those type of lists". Maybe 20 years ago it was possible to take an all comers list down to your lgs for a pickup game but now there are easily 5x more variety in armies and an all comers list is just going to get you tabled.
>>98279450I miss when /pol/shit hadn't infected everything else. Kill yourself.
>>98279536I miss the force organization chart.
>>98279505>troon thinks we care about or know anything about 11th Edition (tm) and contextualizes everything through the rules of 11thTrannies really ARE mentally ill and autistic huh?
>>98279543This is a term I devised myself, it accurately explains what people call the rules lawyering mentality that plagues your average competetive scene in Warhammer and the general faggotry of your average nu40k amerimutt audience. Pic very much related.
>>98279491The problem is you can't avoid it, not unless you have a private club with agreed upon house rules with a private place to meet and game. You cannot reconsile Steel Hammer and Green Tide being in the same game if you are playing at an lgs environment.
>>9827958810:1 odds the casuals will have no real response to this.
>>98279588>You cannot reconsile Steel Hammer and Green Tide being in the same game if you are playing at an lgs environment.The problem with casual is that they have it good and don't realize how rare their circumstances are. I have a group of regular opponents but none of us live anywhere with enough space for gaming tables. I'm sure we could come up with our own House Rules to make the game more suited to our style but when half our games are against randos at the lgs we have to play rules as written ans that means we need meta lists to stand a chance against the wide variety of spam lists we are going to face. Getting rid of the force org chart was a mistake (except for GWs finances, they sell way more kits now than they ever could before).
>>98279668I know a guy who runs a Steel Hammer detachment. 7 Leman Russ in every single fucking game. If I don't tailor specifically for those games I stand literally no chance at winning.
Its official. The casuals have nothing to respond to the state of the game with. They can stay in their little house rules clubs and ignore the reality of Noble Lance and Recon Element being in the same game.
>>98277961And to make it fair, you either want each pairing to switch and play another game, or structure the bracket so they get play the favored side 1/2 the time.It's not rocket science, but 1 guarantees you go over time for a 1-day event, and 2 makes your bracket a lot more complex for no particular gain (and can cause a new kind of gay skew list).
>>98279231>they never got a 4thTechnically incorrect, the 4th ed book came out 4 months before 5th so noone remembers.
>>98268800The product is now consumed by a greater number of people, so the bar needs to be lowered.
>>98280298There is no way they released a 4e Ork book 4 months before the 5e book came out. You must be taking crazy pills. Post the cover.
>>98280517wait till you hear about Guard and World Eaters in 9th lol
>>98279218>>98279287>In 4th ed Models do NOT grant cover. Including vehicles,The chart on page 25 specifically and explicitly says that vehicles provide cover.It also says that wrecks and wreckage provide cover.There is no ambiguity whatsoever that vehicles provide a cover save.
>>98278340half of these don't make any sense>battle at the farm>there's no farm terrain>the orc village>nothing about the village is orky, but there's a well that can teleport or instakill your HQ because...>spacehulk>there's no spacehulk>what shall we call our minefield set up?>I've got it! the mined fields, it's genius!if you're gonna do flavor at least have it taste good
>>98270976that article has a lot of hidden assumptions and unexamined threads. as in >students cant read is really>students cant read english and >children are less cognitively capable is really >the current childless millennials were smarter at age 18 than current day18 year old africans Back to the topic, if you change the player base, you change the environment. You have been displaced in your own hobby. Enjoy!
>>98280815Based.
>>98279610>10:1 odds the casuals will have no real response to this5 hours later not a single CAAC loser has addressed a single point against their autism.
>>98280861Why would they? I was following that argument and they have absolutely nothing to counter the point that noble lance knight spam and recon element stealth infantry spam exists in the same game. If you don't tailor or bring some equally meta exploiting list there is no way to deal with armies like that. They probably have equally casual friends and this type of shit never comes up for them but for a lot of players its pickup games at the lgs or nothing.
>>98268800Don't mix up my hobby with The Hobby™.
basement 40k is chillcomp40k is for faggot retards
>>98280982Classiest argument if Ive ever heard one.
>>98280982Failure to address >>98280908 and is just stating false definitives.
>>98280695Scenary non player controlled vehicles.
>>98281022It says Wrecks, Vehicles, and Wreckage.Vehicles are clearly defined as player controlled units.
>>98268800It went mainstream and is filled with people who dont want to come up with their own narrative and would rather be spoon fed a predesigned experience.
>>98279588>>98280908>C'mon you're not just going to hit the button and solve all your problems you're going to play public casual games and deal with sweats forever! Just accept it!
>>98281075I'm going to be honest the amount of effort I have to put in to enjoy narrative games with other people is outweighing the enjoyment I get from them so I've just started writing Solo/Two-handed scenarios.
>>98281075I don't know anyone in the scene I would be willing to bring into my house and I'm lucky enough to have the space for a gaming table. This wasn't a problem before I moved for work but for the last few years I've only been able to play at the lgs and the people Ive met there... we'll just say they arnt sending their best. You need to accept that what you're saying isn't possible for a large number of people.
>>98280982>basement 40k is chillBasement and Garage hammer reign supreme That feel when me and my buddies will house rule and come up with shit off the riff mid game becuase its sounds fun. >Hey can my rhino with a dozer blade bust through this wall?>Thats a good question, tell you what, give it a go but take a dangerous terrain check if you fail you are stunned, and take d3 HP damage.
>>98281140>classiest shit>smug attitudeGet nailed to a cross
>>98281146>Classist>SMugBrother what? Where the fuck am i being any of these things. Garage hammer and basement hammer players typically are more chill and run things by the feel of the game. Its more fun.
>>98281155I'm p sure you just replied to an engagement bot, m'senpai.
>>98281155You are so bias you dont even see your own privilege. I live and work in Toronto. I do not have a garage or basement and my apartment doesnt have room for a game table. I also don't have a gaming group anymore because I moved for this job and I'm not commuting 4 hours round trip back to the suburbs to continue playing with my old group. For the majority of players at my LSG playing at the LSG with meta competitive lists is the only option and your louted "superior" way to play is impossible.
>>98281197So you agree that basementhammer is more chill. Cool. Make some friends in Toronto and the problem solves itself. You do have a dinner table, right? That's all you need.
>>98281197NTA you've been complaining at. I live in a ~900 ft2 condo. I can easily fit a 6ftx4ft table in my livingroom. I may have to move some of my furniture around for it to work, but I can make it happen. I build it from 3 2ftx4ft folding tables that I can stow away when I don't want a fuckoff hueg table in the middle of my livingroom. I mostly play at home with interested coworkers and people I can manage to filter from the LGSs who are willing to play basement/garagehammer. You can probably make it work.
>>98281197>>98281241I guarantee these slaves living in shoeboxes have called someone a "poorfag' before KEK
>>98281329When Ive made enough money to retire at 45 I'll remember you said this and laugh.
>>98281377I joined the military at 22 and will have a full pension at 42, and I live in a 2500sqft home, but congrats I guess lil bro LMAO
>>98281396We I'm not going to bitch about you being in the military because you have to be more selfless than I to sign up for that. Good job.
>>98281075I read that as >perverted and it was still better than lgs pickup games.
Wow you went several weeks without spamming this garbage thread, I thought you had finally learned your lesson but I guess not. Guess I'll just have to BTFO you again like I already have over a dozen times. These are warGAMES not ART PROJECTS for example, pic related yes, obviously, left looks better than right, no one is going to disagree with that. but when playing a GAME, right is obviously going to be a funner experience for BOTH sides, just look at the utter lack of balance in the left terrain set up. the near side has to traverse a river and then fight through open fields while the far side immediately gets access to most the hard cover of buildings on the map and on top of that gets the hedgerows overlooking the open fields. its blatantly not fair and poorly set up.>but just give the attack side more units!ok then, how do you balance that? how do you know how many points to allocate to balance out the terrain advantage? double? triple? what if thats too much and now the attacker has the distinct advantage? its way too much trouble to figure out. thats why tourney tables will always provide the better gameplay experience for BOTH sides. GAMEplay. WarGAMES. These are GAMES. A good game needs to be fun for all involved. It is not fun when one side has an inherent advantage over the other. There is a reason why 40k tournaments are by and far the most popular wargaming events and playstyle over every single alternative."Think of it this way. Look at Battletech players. They arguably play on the ugliest paper hex mats and hex counter terrain in wargaming, despite the fact that playing BT with physical and 3d terrain has existed for decades. They CHOOSE the uglier terrain because readability and clear rules for LOS matter to gameplay, aesthetics do not.
>>98281396How old are you now? Is your home off base? This matters.
>>98281329>Coming onto a forum about over price plastic toy soldiers to flex your base housing.Anon you might be richer then most people here, but son you sound miserable. Enjoy your empty home i guess. Any way so back to garage hammer and basement hammer, yeah modern 40k kinda stucks, it got pumped full of a lot of people who dont have a lot of creativity and need to be told how to enjoy the game, its a the same thing you see with video games and RPGs. You get a lot of boxed experiences now.
>>98281446>yes, obviously, left looks better than right, no one is going to disagree with that. but when playing a GAME, right is obviously going to be a funner experience for BOTH sidesNo it isn't. You're obviousky a newfag so you wouldnt know this, but the table on the left exists in the first place because wargamers made it to play a game on. They just played a game with better rules. Older editions of 40k, such as 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, also had much better rules than modern 40k, and games on boards like those were normal, and fun, and I know thos from experience because I played them, and there are many hundreds of documented accounts from other people on old forums and in magazines like White Dwarf who did the same. Your entire argument relies on thinking you know better than people who had already invented a better form of wargaming than you've ever played 20, 30 or more years ago.
>>98281446Anon, war games are meant to be battle simulations, thats the entire point of it. In fact thats why wargames were made, they were made to be officer training tools. 40k WAS a wargame, it became a board game about war. Which resulted in the right boards you see because its fast and "Fair" Despite war not being fair.
>>98280861lol I have a friend like you who has melties if you even say “3rd edition” around him saying you’re autistic and can’t read and are a casual and this and that. I’m sure it’s very important to you that you be good at 40k and constantly evolve with the game to get your dubs but most normal people get their self worth from other things in life.
>>98281197Kek city boy seething many such cases
>>98281446>funnerStopped reading here, I generally find it’s good not to listen to retards
>>98281599>had much better rulesNot really. The rules on average were not as well written as they are today. BA and BT Rhino rush was as much of an insufferable stat check as Knights are today in that era. Who could forget Unkillable Falcons.The problem is that of game design philosophy where everyone is now Eldar and throws out eye-watering offensive output and has Fleet. Charge distances are, on average, greater. You can have less dense tables with T1 firepower that doesn't cripple targets if properly applied.Part of the problem is using an engine designed for medieval combat for a vaguely WW2ish future combat engine. In WHFB, you have a more natural arc of tension as armies jockey for position and set up their charges with modest ranged harassment. And then the climactic confrontation happens on T3 ish.40k has always had a problem with T1 being the most impactful because ranged weapons hit like a WHFB charge from twice the distance. If you used 3e statlines in 11e core rules, you would probably have a better time because the core rules are imo better. But you wouldn't not have the multiplicative increase in effective firepower from ubiquitous rerolls, sustained hits, lethal hits, mortals, ways to reduce movement and shooting penalties, advance & charge etc.The problem is, players want to throw more dice and be powerful, they want the unit to consistently execute their gimmick, and they want more axises for their factions weapons to feel different. Which ends up with everyone kinda feeling like old school Eldar, as applying lots of specialized firepower first has always been the best way for you to win a game of 40k, and defense has not kept up even with wound and toughness increases in a points system that generally overvalues defense.
>>98281446Anon I don't know how to tell you this but battletech maps aren't remotely symmetrical or balanced, there's actual campaign support, and there are literally dozens of optional rules or rulesets for everything including custom terrain rules for half the official maps. Your comparison is terrible.Also again, you clearly don't know what a wargame is as several anons have posted.Also some of those hex maps are un fucking readable from 5ft up jfc I dunno what they were smoking with alien worlds font colors.
>>98281784>Not really.Not that anon but no, earlier editions had much better rules. Each edition had its own flaws lest we forget the unkillable rhinos, or captain smashfucker prime. But no modern 40k fucking sucks ass, its souless, its flavorless, its the most boring dribble i have seen in the game.8th onward got massively dumbed down, because they wanted to appeal to the masses not to the gamer nerds. 8th onward lost massive amounts of narrative and granularity that created fun games and interesting interactions. Now its all statistically and cut and dry. 40k inches closer and closer to Kill team every day. Lets also not forget that the scale of the game was much smaller compared to modern 40k, were back in 3rd-5th bringing a land raider was a massive chuck of your army. So no, the rules are not better now, they were much better back then.
>>98281811>But no modern 40k fucking sucks ass, its souless, its flavorless, its the most boring dribble i have seen in the game.Because everybody plays like Eldar, because playing like Eldar (fast specialists that bring enough dice to be very consistent at executing their gimmick) is the best way to play 40k.>8th onward got massively dumbed downWhere does "Monstrous Creature" end and where does "Vehicle" begin has always been a point of contention in Middlehammer. Treating both as big things with high T and degrading profiles solves this longstanding pain point. The modern missions and scoring are, imo, more positionally interesting and less rewarding of tabling your opponent than 3e-7e.>8th onward lost massive amounts of narrative and granularity Things got a lot more mechanically granular, between more weapon rules, more weapon profiles, variable damage, etc. What homogenized was playstyles.>Lets also not forget that the scale of the game was much smaller compared to modern 40k, were back in 3rd-5th bringing a land raider was a massive chuck of your army.Because the standard game is 2k, and not 1500 or 1750. The extra 500 points brings a lot more bodies, but it was desired to encourage take all comers lists instead of hoping you got a favorable matchup because you skewed horde and they brought a lot of anti-tank.And Land Raiders were rarely worth their points in ye olde Middlehammer days, just as they aren't today.
>>98268800Checked. It feels like a big chunk of the old school model train grandpa knowledge has been lost to late Y and all of Z. They just want the meta lists and flat line shooting. That and it feels like old school hobby supplies are hella expensive compared to just buying some 3D printed, laser cut wood or papercraft shit on the cheap off etsy or amazon. Compared to even the shit trees and little corner walls that came with my first 40k box this is mid; but I suppose there is a fair bit of it.
>>98268811You're legit sub-70 iq if belive GeeDubs doesn't make 80% of its profits from minis and sets still.
>>98281784>The rules on average were not as well written as they are today.Honestly just stopped reading here because you are so outrageously retarded it isn't worth arguing with you. I see another anon has taken up that herculean task and I wish them the best but I fear you are irreversibly braindamaged.The game has never been a masterpiece, every edition of 40k has been flawed and even at its best point (somewhere in late 3rd early 4th) it could be improved in a lot of ways, but to claim that the modern game is even on the same fucking level let alone BETTER is lunacy and you clearly never played.
>>98281446Was wondering when this pasta was going to come out.
>>98281676I have a soulless office job I could be doing from home but they forced us back into the office for reasons that only make sense if you are trying to protect the value of an obsolete building.
>>98275380>Oh, you're a Guardfag that's mad he can't table people with melta vet drivebys and artillery like 5e lol.I mean, instead you're just stuck dealing with broken shit that's just as infuriating to play against if not more so while everyone tells you how balanced things are supposed to be.
>>98279610The real response is that this game is a two-way street and you ought to have a discussion with your opponent as to what you're looking for. Playing competently is fine and great, but oftentimes wringing out every single tiny little advantage out of the system to the point where FAQ's have to be stupidly iron-clad because of people who want to break the game to win is fucking boring and lame. If the only answer is to bring the most boring meta netlist because assumedly everyone else is, then it's not really that great of a game.
>>9828144831. Yes off base, I own two homes.
>>98281908Old school terrain looks legit, hopefully it's allowed in tournies for the new edition. Otherwise, this cardboard will undoubtedly become the go to.
>>98283087>Larping on a basket weaving image board hours after the fact.
>>98283377I'm sorry that that sounds like such an unbelievable tale to you. Praying your life improves some day. God bless buddy
>>982833813 years off a standard contractyou're obviously lying c'mon sonyou're probably a e6 at best making what 2k a month
>>98268800>Urban combat>Random scattered ruinsI've always hated this shit crappy terrain itself aside. I honestly prefer the generic 1-3 hills and 1-2 forests, and up to 6 craters to shitty urban combat that looks like buildings were placed there for combat like some paintball arena. Give buildings some character, have a statue or fountain as part of a square, have buildings with more character than a generic recangular building that's 90% destroyed.
I don't care about reading autist walls of text I just open these threads to see funny images of bad tables and good images of good tables. This thread barely has any of either so it's a bad thread.
>>98283394I have 9 years time in service and make $7500 a month. My wife is a pharmacist, and I bought both my homes with the VA Loan using $0 down payment. Seethe cope and shid yourself lmao
>>98283418I don't think you do
>>98283441Not my problem
>>98283447your problem is lying on the internet for 4chan e-cred
