Previous: >>3456716
>>3976911Seven Arcs is so good.
Just rewatched first season and A's last week, the first time since 2009.I forgot how legit good it is. It's also funny how strong the shipping fuel for NanoFate in A's is, especially when you consider that they didn't plan later developments yet.And then there is the cute and gay ED...SrikerS is next.
>>3996179I kinda wonder if they originally planned for something different from StrikerS. A's ends with teenage Nanoha/Fate/Hayate transforming on a roof. Makes me think they originally wanted to continue from there instead of having another timeskip.
I'm also really sad that Nanoha is a bit forgotten these days. It was big in the Yuri fandom for so long, but everytime the topic comes up outside of 4chan, it's always Sailor Moon and Madoka. Madoka would have likely never been greenlit without Nanoha's success. Ah, and it's only the "gay Mahou Shoujo" people think of first because it came out when anime was already more widespread.
Nanoha tops Fate and Subaru tops Tia, right?
>>3996179Rewatched it a couple of years ago and forgot how much it starts off as a pretty standard Magical Girl series before all the sci-fi elements start filtering in and the transformations gradually become more mecha-like.>>3996191That being said I think more than Madoka Symphogear owes its inspiration to Nanoha
>>3996191We discussed this in the general a few days ago. Nanoha just didn't know how to carry itself as a franchise. First, the jump from A's to Strikers was too abrupt, turning off several fans (even if undoubtly brought in several new ones). A high school season in-between could have eased things along, but it was not objectivally bad.Then the real problem came with the sequels to Strikers. Nanoha's appeal was its mixture of cute magical girl elements and sci-fi drama elements, but those elements were divided into Vivid and Force respectively, alienating a big portion of the fanbase as a result. The movies tried to damage-control, but I think not using high school Nanoha was a mistake.
>>4008544Mizuki Nana playing Fate 2 in Symphogear certainly helped.
>>4008840>Then the real problem came with the sequels to StrikersI actually wanted to make a post about this, too, but I forgot.Force is what really stopped the train. IIRC the head writer (and god, I forgot his name) really wanted to do a show about a Magical Girl/Boy combo, but Nanoha got quickly sidetracked and in StrikerS Erio and Caro were quickly irrelevant, likely because someone realized that she show is NANOHA. That's likely the main reason we have some completely new MCs no one gives a shit about as the initial protags of Force. God, I remember back then. People didn't like that we followed completely new characters that also knew the old cast and people didn't like how annoyingly edgy the villains were and how easily they shat on old MCs like Signum. Force eventually improved and it got cancelled just when I started to like it.But overall the franchise is still called NANOHA, so new MCs were always difficult. They could have just used Erio and Caro for the first arc of Force, people were already fine with them.And they should have just hurried up with the next show, so not too much time passes.I also agree with the high school arc. I like StrikerS enough, but a bridge would have been nice.>>4008544>That being said I think more than Madoka Symphogear owes its inspiration to Nanoha,yes, but that's not what I meant. Madoka was not inspired by Nanoha, I think. But a Mahou Shoujo aimed at an older male audience with the classic MS style of cute frilly dresses etc. wasn't exactly a common thing. I meant that Nanoha's success most likely convinced some suits that this "Meduga" thing might just work. IBefore they would have likely forced the butcher to lewd it up or something and make a different design for the girls, or they might have outright rejected.
Why the fuck did nobody ever tell me Rika is the protagonist of Nanoha? I would have watched it instantlyEverything in the first episode was hilarious from the conspicuous panchira to the equally conspicuous sakuga in completely random scenes
>>4027502Why do you think they got Yukari to play a loli whose catchphrase is NANOdesu?
>>4015884>MCs>Signum
>>4027502I'm on StrikerS now and I'm so confused about what the fuck happened at the end of episode 8, where Nanoha suddenly chimps out on Teana and Subaru in a wildly OOC fashion for no apparent reason. I don't get what they did that made her mad, they seemed to be doing exactly what they were supposed to do, which was beat her in a training battle. Rewatched the sequence twice and I still don't understand it any betterApparently I'm not alone here because I found a blogpost explaining that this scene ruined her image for many Japanese fans at the time and popularized "白い魔王" as a nickname for her
>>4029694If I'm not wrong that something that will be explained later in the series. I can explain it but I guess you don't want spoilers.
I was excited for the second cour of Vivid and couldn't believe what I was seeing when it opened to an unrelated story set after the tournament which tells us how it ended. Literally thought I had somehow missed a courWhat on earth happened behind the scenes that led to Vivid ending on a mid-tournament cliffhanger but getting a spinoff the following year?
>>4031408The Vivid anime was an adaptation of the start of the manga of the same name, if you want the whole story you have to read the manga.Vivid Strike is the sequel to the Vivid manga, and was animated by Seven Arcs, which is the studio the does all the Nanoha stuff. Vivid instead was animated by A-1, and it wasn't really a great adaptation if you ask most people.
>>4035225>>4035254The duality of yuri fans.
Now I have finished StrikerS, finally. Since I was quite busy, I couldn't watch more than four episodes per week.I had forgotten a lot, but it's still fun and mostly quite good.Too bad that's basically it. Sure, there's Vivid, but that's just a SoL sidestory, doesn't really compare with the previous seasons.Kinda sad that Force failed, because otherwise we might have gotten a proper continuation.
>>4050474I continue to insist that Nanoha is not a manga franchise, but one of primarily anime and manga as supplementary material, Force failed for similar reasons that the DCEU and other "universes" failed miserably, people who did not understand the source material and made a bad and expensive fanfic.
>>4051728>people who did not understand the source material and made a bad and expensive fanfic.Force was written by Tsuzuki the same as all other entries.
>>4050474>Sure, there's Vivid, but that's just a SoL sidestory, doesn't really compare with the previous seasons.I've been slow to get through everything as well, but I'm halfway through Vivid and I'm surprised by how much I've been enjoying it given all that I've heard.
>>4052089I didn't mean it ws bad.I just wanted more with plot.>>4051728It would have been better if force had just been the next anime.I remember people mostly warming up towards it's untimely end, and the more "controversial" parts would have been three or four episodes.If it had been at least as good as StrikerS afterwards, it would have been perfectly fine. At least it got to the main plot much faster than StrikerS, which would have meant more time to flesh out the villains.
>>4054455>It would have been better if force had just been the next anime.That would have been much better in general, since it would have allowed us to judge the series in its entirety and it could even have been handled in a better way and it would be faster, being a monthly manga was also somewhat detrimental to Force.but let's be honest, Force and Vivid being published as manga was clearly to ignore the franchise and focus on another project (Dog Days) and when that didn't work out as well as they expected, then they stupidly returned to Nanoha, with movies that feel like wasted potential, adapting Vivid incompletely and making a new entry that no one realized was part of Nanoha, at least Vivid Strike was a step in the right direction (before going back 10 again)
>>4054893>then they stupidly returned to Nanoha, with movies that feel like wasted potentialYeah, not sure what the point of Ref/Det were, since it not like it'll actually affect the main timeline, and the timeline it does affect is rendered null and void by the fact that they're propaganda pieces in-universe, which makes the whole thing feel hollow. They were fun movies for spectacle, but I would've much preferred a pair of StrikerS movies that iron out that seasons problems, and possibly a Sound Stage X movie as well.
i miss them...
It's a franchise.Symphogear has also ended, albeit with a bit more dignity.Will there be a new big gay Mahou Shoujo franchise?
>>4068935MahoAko, possibly. There's also MachiMazo, although that one is not mahou shoujo but rather has a magical girl as one of the deuteragonists.
https://twitter.com/discotekmedia/status/1714085251360969129Discotek Licensed Nanoha series, at least season 1 blu-ray for now
Has it been confirm that NanoFate is canon> Or we (viewers) just going to continue "beatin round the bush" with it?
>>4078656They're officially married in Vivid, and before that they were already sleeping together and having sex regularly. Their sex life is so active that it became a running joke in the side material.>>4078660Fortunately Seven Arcs never pulled a Bandai Namco as far as we're aware.
>>3996179A's is legit one of the best anime ever made, even outside of a yuri context.
>>4003159The only good thing about Force.
>>4078707Ahaha, no.
>>4078726>noYes.
>>4078707It truly is. Perfect pacing, a great plot where the conflicting character motivations are sensible and not forced, and serviceable enough animation. Movie 2nd did it so damn dirty.
>>4078656they're fucking
Happy Halloween.
Haven't watched these shows in years, but I remember enjoying them. More than that, though, I remember feeling as though there were huge parts of the story missing from the anime.Seems like we leave Nanoha and Fate as teenage best friends, then we do a time-skip and find Nanoha and Fate are living together like a couple in a mature relationship. (Doesn't matter if their status as a couple is canon or not -- the signs seem glaringly obvious.)Those time-skip years are a big deal. I'm guessing a majority of young women who are best friends in their teens do not end up as a couple. Okay, so how did this happen for Nanoha and Fate? Was it a natural, seamless progression to a foregone conclusion, did something unusual happen to push them that final step, or was it some of both?Seems like an important missed story opportunity.
>>4094862If you had gotten involved with the fanbase you would know that this was always one of the most recurring criticisms about the show, the sudden jump from A's to Strikers completely skipping the characters' teenage years.It's a sentiment that comes up constantly in these threads, including this very one.>>4008840It's one of the reasons why Strikers is so contentious compared to the other seasons.
>>4094862Nanoha and Fate have already been glued together since they were nine, Arisa and Hayate teased them all the time. Pretty much everyone, from fans to in-universe characters, seem to believe that they were a couple pretty much from the start, even if Nanoha and Fate didn't understand it at the time.
>>4094862>Haven't watched these shows in yearsDo what I did and rewatch them.I'm rewatching a lot of shows now, it's really worth it.
>see new Force chapter translated on mangadex>it was a 10 year chapter that was never translated
>>4106092Holy fuck, for real.>to be continuedMakes me want to cry.
>>4108436Yes, anyone would cry at the possibility of that garbage being brought back.
>>4106092That's a relief. It would be awful if it were continued.
Anyone know where I can buy a cute fate keychain.Checked the normal buyfag sites but it feels like nanoha merch is pretty rare outside of figures.
Bye hat.
>>4079075They're not fuckin, they just talking lol >>4094862>>4094902>>4095083True, it would have been nice to get an Nanoha series with her in highschool. I believe NanoxFate is canon, due to their being too many hints (living together, sleeping in the same bed and raising a child together) and official artwork depicting them in a romantic partnership. My headcanon of them getting together after highschool. I'm the StrikersS comic, Nanoha and Fate goes on a vacation together. To their dismay not everyone could go, they had excuses as to why. Even Yuuno had a bs excuse. I believe in that vacation Fate confessed her feelings to Nanoha. Thus leading to where we are now. >>4020146Is this official artwork?
>>4135203>Is this official artwork?No, no official artwork features that level of explicit nudity. I recognize the artist, but I can't remember the name.>I believe NanoxFate is canon, due to their being too many hints (living together, sleeping in the same bed and raising a child together) and official artwork depicting them in a romantic partnership.That would've been the most common opinion back in 2007 while StrikerS was still airing. But after that, we got Vivid's marital arrangement for Nanoha and Fate, and Vivio being NanoFate's biological daughter in the Innocents timeline, leaving aside all the over the top gay stuff from the Megami magazine and live events.
>>4135260>we got Vivid's marital arrangement for Nanoha and Fate, and Vivio being NanoFate's biological daughter in the Innocents timelineVivids martial arrangement for Nanoha and Fate? Vivio does resemble both of her moms and is Nanoha Vivid Life canon to the story?
>>4135333>Vivids martial arrangement for Nanoha and Fate? Nanoha and Fate changed Vivio's adoption documents, between StrikerS and Vivid, so now both Nanoha and Fate are Vivio's legal guardians. Previously in StrikerS Fate was legally Vivio's godmother since for a child to have two guardians according to Japanese law they have to be married. Also they got a house together.>Vivio does resemble both of her moms and is Nanoha Vivid Life canon to the story?Yeah, it was officially published.
>>4135203>Is this official artwork?het hentai artist, the positive thing they have is that they somehow combine their style with the official style and can really be indistinguishable.>>4135260>>4135333>>4135348I still remember the incredibly stupid arguments to deny NanoFate, based on those that came out of their asses, at this point the couple is something that is only chosen by the stupidity of the staff, the unnecessary insistence on continuing with lolinoha and that they don't really have Vivio's existence beyond, we need a movie with the Vivid Strike characters against a real antagonist.
>>4135348>Nanoha and Fate changed Vivio's adoption documents, between StrikerS and Vivid, so now both Nanoha and Fate are Vivio's legal guardians. Previously in StrikerS Fate was legally Vivio's godmother since for a child to have two guardians according to Japanese law they have to be married. Also they got a house together.I understand, your basing it off real world customs as well. Yea, I know they stay in the same house together, most likely sleep in the same bed as well. Now that you mention it, I never realized how Vivio came to accept Takamchi as her last name. I know its been stated in the soundstages how most of everyone around them know Nanoha and Fate sleep in the same bed. No one ever questions it. Also, that Subaru learned to adopt the same strategy as her mentors lol. Also, makes you wonder if Nanoha sees Erio and Caro as her step children, which technically they would be. >>4135361>official style and can really be indistinguishable.It really is, I can barely tell the difference from the Official art style >I still remember the incredibly stupid arguments to deny NanoFate, based on those that came out of their asses, at this point the couple is something that is only chosen by the stupidity of the staffYea, most people are looking for that validation of canonicity from the staff. There is too many official artworks, hints and evidence coming from the Masaki Tsuzuki and VAs giving confirmation to their relationship. Example, the Witch of Mercury. I know Masaki Tsuzuki and their VAs commented on the matter saying its pretty much canon. However, the staff not going to validate that due to sales. There is alot of evidence depicting their romantic bond, I would like to see that bond onscreen, but Nanoha series dont focus on the romance.
>>4135386>Also, makes you wonder if Nanoha sees Erio and Caro as her step children, which technically they would be.Not Nanoha's stepchildren since Erio was technically adopted by Lindy, and Caro as far as we know was never legally adopted probably on purpose by Tsuzuki to avoid the incest thing, but most realistically because her biological parents are still probably alive at her tribe. Vivio does see Erio and Caro as her siblings according to the drama CDs though, and I wouldn't be surprised is Nanoha saw them similarly as Fate does, since both moms have been taking care of Erio, Caro and Vivio from about the same time.
>>4135397>Nanoha saw them similarly as FateI believe she does, as you said she been taking care of them since they enrolled at Riot 6. >Vivio does see Erio and Caro as her siblings according to the drama CDsDo you know which CD she says this? Also, is there any CDs of Nanoha introducing Vivio to her family? I believe Vivio mentioned something about meeting Takamachi family in the manga
>>4135897>Do you know which CD she says this?From Nanoha Movie 2nd commentary:Caro: We're technically both only children, but-Erio: We've got family and close friends in many different places, and we're mostly always together, so it doesn't feel that way.Vivio: Me too. I've got Erio and Caro, so I don't feel like an only child.Erio: We do get in touch pretty often.Caro: And we're always at each other's birthdays too.>Also, is there any CDs of Nanoha introducing Vivio to her family?No, that scene was never directly portrayed in any of the drama CDs or any of the manga, it was only alluded to.
>>4135966>Do you know which CD she says this?>From Nanoha Movie 2nd commentary:>>Caro: We're technically both only children, but->Erio: We've got family and close friends in many different places, and we're mostly always together, so it doesn't feel that way.>Vivio: Me too. I've got Erio and Caro, so I don't feel like an only child.>Erio: We do get in touch pretty often.>Caro: And we're always at each other's birthdays too.>>Also, is there any CDs of Nanoha introducing Vivio to her family?>No, that scene was never directly portrayed in any of the drama CDs or any of the manga, it was only alluded to.Well, depicting it would for more than one throw away panel would need explanations thay they probably don't want to give. Could you picture Nanoha's family not commenting on Nanoha and Fate's relationship with a kid involved?>Are you sure Fate is okay with this? Or something like that.
>>4136704>Well, depicting it would for more than one throw away panel would need explanations thay they probably don't want to give.Anon, this is not 2005 anymore. Even if Nanoha was owned by Bandai Namco that wouldn't make sense. Even Tsuzuki himself commented on the very deliberate 3-hours-of-sex official schedule that they gave Nanoha and Fate back in 2007. > Fate has difficulties waking up the morning. I think she has low blood pressure (laughs). She usually moans “U~n” in the bed when Nanoha says “Fate-chan, it’s morning.”> Usually she's spacing out throughout morning after Nanoha leaves for morning training. As for the time before she sleeps, Fate is reporting to Nanoha about her day. She'll probably say something like, “Something like this happened today…” During lunch, I believe Fate would want to talk to Nanoha because they are not able to eat together. > The love is definitely there (laughs). In the series, Fate drives a car, and when Nanoha sat in the passenger’s seat, Fate said “I’ll give you a ride until we reach OO” (laughs). They are truly in love! Also, the car she drives is a sports car, adding to her coolness (laughs).Stuff as explicitly gay as that was common in Megami or Comp Ace articles, and that was even before they got married. Also, if what people wrote about the live events was to be trusted, everything there was tuned up to eleven there. By the way, most of this also applies to Subaru and Teana to a lesser degree. Too bad they never got the popularity they deserved, maybe because they were too young to adopt a small child and start a family.
>>4136704>Could you picture Nanoha's family not commenting on Nanoha and Fate's relationship with a kid involved?I feel like Nanoha family would question it at first, but they would come to understand it. I know Vivio met her other grandmother Lindy through video call. Do you think Vivio met Lindy in person? The reason I asked about Vivio meeting Nanoha family was in part of the game Gear of Destiny. She seemed familiar with Earth, certain locations that involved Nanoha family. >>4136797>Even if Nanoha was owned by Bandai Namco that wouldn't make sense. Even Tsuzuki himself commented on the very deliberate 3-hours-of-sex official schedule that they gave Nanoha and Fate back in 2007.I did not know he meant sex schedule lol. I bet they had to reduce that time after adopting Vivio in StrikersS ep 13.>Fate has difficulties waking up the morning. I think she has low blood pressure (laughs). She usually moans “U~n” in the bed when Nanoha says “Fate-chan, it’s morning.” Usually she's spacing out throughout morning after Nanoha leaves for morning training.Well that answer my question of what does Nanoha and Fate do in their spare time when Vivio is away. I believe Tsuzuki mention that Vivio stays in touch with Fate just as a father who works away from home. I wonder does Nanoha and Fate communicate with each other as frequently? From some scenes in the soundstages it does seem that way though. However, it was like one or two scenes from the soundstages. >Also, if what people wrote about the live events was to be trusted, everything there was tuned up to eleven there.What happened at these live events? I know people are going crazy about the VAs for Miorine and Suletta live event. I wasnt sure if Teana and Subaru was a thing, but after listening to the soundstages, Im starting to think they are a couple. The soundstages mention Subaru is following her mentors example, she bought a single bed for her and Tea in her apartment. Now they sleep together.
>>4137508>I wonder does Nanoha and Fate communicate with each other as frequently? From some scenes in the soundstages it does seem that way though.Who knows, you would expect that according to what missions Fate is assigned to, she may not be able to communicate back home every day. But then again, for most of Vivid/Strike/Life it seems like Fate is almost always actually slacking from her work as an enforcer, and just being a moe blob at home.>What happened at these live events? People who assisted posted their impressions and hauls on 2chan and Japanese blogs back then, some stuff got linked and translated on /a/ too. Probably there is some of this archived somewhere in the plentiful vaults of the interwebs.
>>4136797>Stuff as explicitly gay as that was common in Megami or Comp Ace articles, and that was even before they got married.When did Nanoha and Fate got married?
>>4137590Some time prior to the events of Vivid >>4135348.
Blu ray is just released for season 1. An excellent start to the beginning of their budding relationship . I think Cru*chyRoll has the lowest prices.
>>4137544Vivid has Nanoha's spirit when she was young. The affection towards Fate is similar to Nanoha's as well.
>>4068935If you count Demon girl next door, we still have some Yuri Shoujo franchises going strong.
>>4138393Yuuno was the intended love interest before NanoFate unexpectedly exploded, and at the time of that scene they probably hadn't given up on the idea just yet, or they wanted to throw a bone for bonus cash.Either way this series isn't exactly exemplary when it comes to committing to yuri, its age shows, but it has historic relevance and got bolder over time.
>>4138399How would you explain them showing Nanoha and Fate sleeping in the same bed in episode 3? Would say they were on the border of making NanoFate be the main thing or was it like you said they were throwing viewers a bone
>>4138422They were already a couple at that point, the whole StrikerS anime was already written when episode 3 aired if they followed standard productions practices. And about that other scene, Fate just left Nanoha to have some time with their important childhood friend she hasn't seen in years. Yuuno by that point should have already known about Nanoha and Fate's relationship if you listen to the sound stages, the one that has a track with Nanoha and Yuuno, where they got into a call after Vivio was kidnapped and Nanoha was depressed, he cheered her up by reminding her that Nanoha had Fate by her side.
>>4138399>Either way this series isn't exactly exemplary when it comes to committing to yuriThat changed after A's though, and even at that point Nanoha herself had only shown sexual attraction towards other women.
dont reply just report
>>4135260>Vivid's marital arrangement for Nanoha and Fate, and Vivio being NanoFate's biological daughter in the Innocents timelineI don't remember any of that in the manga, post the pages.
>>41386542 Nanoseconds in Google.
>>4138716It's a possible interpretation, not confirmation.
>>4138733It's an unambiguous translation that specifically makes the use of the word birth instead of adoption, it doesn't leave any room for doubt. You can check the original scanlations to see that nothing was edited, the raws to compare it with the original Japanese.
>>4138640Report what? Anon was asking a general question
>>4138716>>4138758>>4138733Even though Vivio is adopted, I feel like birth between two women is possible in Nanoha universe. Given their advancement in technology. You can take two people DNA and create an artificial person. Which Vivio was made through the same project as Fate
>>4138763Yeah, that much is expected. We're close to having that kind of technology for humans with our medical advancements, and Nanoha's world is centuries ahead of ours.
>>4138775I believe Vivio is Nanoha and Fate biological daughter. Yes, she is adopted, but she has too many similarities to both of her mothers. She was born using the same project as Fate, fast and nimble like Fate. In terms of Nanoha appearances, she is enjoys battling and making friends with each person she encounters. Plus, her appearance is a slight mixture of the two.
>>4138758>specifically makes the use of the word birthIt doesn't mean anything. Maybe she's a clone in Innocents as well.
>>4138816That's an assertion.It's a common time-travel trope that if you travel back in time, and your parents learn that you're their child, you may change the events so you never get born. Even if it wasn't a common trope, it's the self-evident implication of the events that Fate and Nanoha are related to Vivio's birth given Haru-nyan's retort to Vivio.
>>4138837Nothing really suggests Vivio can't be a clone like the original one. The biological parents theory is nice but it's not confirmed.
>>4138869>Nothing really suggests Vivio can't be a clone like the original one.If it wasn't as self-evident as I inferred from the impressions of people who read this chapter when it got published: First, clones are not given birth in the Nanoha universe, that's well established lore. Second, if you claim that Vivio, in Innocent, is a clone rather than NanoFate's biological daughter, you need to establish causal-chain between (young) NanoFate learning the fact that Vivio will be their daughter, and the implicitly asserted fact that she won't be created as a clone anymore due to this knowledge.Also, your level of augmenting is almost indistinguishably from shitposting, so you will have to excuse me if I start ignoring your messages.
>>4138913>clones are not given birth in the Nanoha universe, that's well established loreI have no idea what you're talking about. Post the lore.>if you claimI don't claim anything. We don't know Vivio's circumstances in Innocents which is a fact.>you need to establish causal-chain between (young) NanoFate learning the fact that Vivio will be their daughter, and the implicitly asserted fact that she won't be created as a clone anymore due to this knowledge. It's exactly the same with the biological parents theory. No difference.
>>4138917Clones in Nanoha are not given birth to, they're created in tubes. >It's exactly the same with the biological parents theory.Refer to >>4138837
>>4138919It's not lore, it's pointless semantics.In any way, Vivio herself thinks she was born and not created. And she has a point.Instead of referring, explain the difference because I see none.
Makes me so sad that most Yuri fans nowadays don't know NanoFate.
>>4138933A movie about NanoFate's wedding would save the franchise.
>>4138931Vivio alludes to that she wasn't born normally in that image you posted. That said, even if for the sake of argument we concede that Vivio in Innocents could unequivocally be referring to her being created as clone, instead of being the biological daughter of Fate and Nanoha, you still have the burden of proof of explaining the causal-chain that is still missing >>4138913
>>4138931Translation?
>>4138934You just know their wedding would somehow be interrupted by the bad guys in the most climatic moment, and they would end up having to fight in wedding-dress-versions of their barrier jackets. Someone needs to make fanart of this, at least.
>>4138935>>4138936Vivio said what she said, she was born not created.I didn't claim anything, I simply pointed out the fact that we don't know much about that version of Vivio. Her being a clone is a possibility because Vivio originally is a clone, it makes sense.
>>4139035>Her being a clone is a possibility because Vivio originally is a clone, it makes sense.You still need to present a causal-chain that is possible in this time travel scenario that is consistent with that conclusion. We need to know what makes your scenario even a viable hypothesis. Just repeatedly claiming that it's a possibility doesn't make it so; possibility has to me demonstrated.
>>4139043I don't understand what and why I need to provide you. Explain yourself better.What is a causal-chain exactly?What dose it have to do with anything?Why do I need to present it?Why don't you present one?Why exactly can't the hypothesis be viable as it is now?So many questions.
>>4139045A causal-chain in a sequence of causes and effects. In a time travel scenario, it links a first cause to a usually distant effect. You are claiming that it is possible that:>Vivio, in Innocent, is a clone rather than NanoFate's biological daughter, so you need to establish a causal-chain between (young) NanoFate learning the fact that Vivio will be their daughter, and the implicitly asserted fact that she won't be created as a clone anymore due to this knowledge.As long as you don't justify your hypothesis in this or some other way, you're just making a baseless assertion. And claiming that it's possible just because, is just another empty assertion.Asking for clarification questions is good. But given the other questions you're making, you may want to read about basic argumentation and epistemology.
>>4139051>Vivio, in Innocent, is NanoFate's biological daughter rather than a clone, so you need to establish a causal-chain between (young) NanoFate learning the fact that Vivio will be their daughter, and the implicitly asserted fact that she won't be born as NanoFate's biological daughter anymore due to this knowledge.Then you are the one who should do it first. Show us how it's done. The burden of proof is on you, you're the one who made a claim.I asked those questions for a reason. As the basics of argumentation and epistemology tell you, you're supposed to understand the matter before arguing about it. So many arguments on the Internet go off the rails because people completely miss each other's points. I can't proceed because I don't know what you personally meant by the previous posts. So please answer the questions.
>>4139067>I can't proceed because I don't know what you personally meant by the previous postsIt's already explained >>4139051>Then you are the one who should do it firstYou can deduce the argument from here >>4138837 and the context of the Innocents' story: Premise 1: A time traveler from the future will be born if nothing conditional for their birth is altered in the present.Premise 2: Nanoha and Fate getting knowledge about Vivio's birth in the present will produce a paradox. Conclusions: Therefore, Vivio's birth is conditional on Nanoha and Fate.A definition, in case that is needed: A paradox is something that violates at least one of the logical absolutes. A time traveler from the future, existing in the present, but never being born in the future, is considered a paradox for violating the law of excluded middle.You don't need to waste time formulating irrelevant anime stuff in syllogistic form, but I'm a philosophy geek, so I can get pedantic like this.
>>4139090It works exactly the same way with cloning.If we're being pedantic, Einhard didn't say there will be a paradox. There might be but not necessarily. She also didn't say Vivio won't be born, it's your assumption.
>>4139267Haru-nyan did say that, here's the panel: >>4138716 Also Vivio's birth was the subject of the paradox in that sentence.If you want to just replace "birth" with "be cloned" in that argument you're welcome to do so, but it's your burden of proof to show how Vivio won't be cloned if her future legal guardians learn about it, which is what we have been asking you to do this whole time. The only thing that I can come up with is that Nanoha and Fate were somehow involved in the cloning of Innocents' Vivio.
>>4139299Einhard only said that there might be some paradox if they mention the details of Vivio's birth. Everything else is you assuming stuff. You also forgot again that Einhard herself wasn't sure about it. Be more pedantic.As was said above, I don't make claims therefore I don't need to prove anything. Maybe Nanoha and Fate are Vivio's biological parents, maybe not. Maybe she's a clone like in the original timeline, it's also possible. You yourself didn't prove that Vivio won't be born if her future parents learn about it. Your argument is that Ein said so but you can't prove that's exactly what she was talking about. Keep asking me but your conclusions are based on your assumptions and I can't do anything about it.
>>4139350>Maybe she's a clone like in the original timeline, it's also possible.Again, possibility has to be demonstrated, that's what we're waiting for, I threw you a bone here >>4139299 but you seem to have ignored it. And again, stop claiming that you aren't making claims, because you're claiming that the cloning scenario is a possibility.>You yourself didn't prove that Vivio won't be born if her future parents learn about it.We can't prove anything within fiction, that's not how narrative interpretation works, you make reasonable inferences and deductions based on the evidentiary context. Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, something is proven when there is no doubt, but there are always degrees of uncertainty in the real world, and the situation is even worse in any fictional scenario. If your only issue is that we're making reasonable inferences that you call assumptions, then I have nothing to add.
>>4139090>philosophyFellow Anon, I too am a philosopher which is why I asked at the beginning of this thread about Nanoha and Fate relationship. Speaking of, I noticed the anon that asked about why Nanoha was blushing like that during her reunion with Yunno. Their post got taken downAnyway, I believe Fate and Nanoha began dating sometimes between beginning of StrikersS and after highschool. I'm the manga, it states the two of them going on a vacation by themselves, which could say something could've between the two during that vacation. In terms of blushing with Yunno, I think it was a friendly thing, but they did had the romantic music undertone behind theor interaction, still unsure about the scene tho.
>>4139350>>4139358I thought Innocents was a alternate timeline, really not pertaining to the canon timeline
>>4139361>I think it was a friendly thingYeah, the girls were in permanent blush mode for much of the SoL moments of the first 3 animated seasons, I'm not sure if that was a stylistic choice or what. Either way, by that point, it was safe to assume Yuuno already knew about Nanoha and Fate's relationship based on their interactions on the drama cds mentioned previously in the thread.>>4139363I don't think people are discussing Innocents believing otherwise.
>>4139358The cloning scenario is a possibility because that's who Vivio is, a clone. You're the one who has to demonstrate that Vivio is not a clone in Innocents.My issue is that you decided that your interpretation is the only correct one.
>>4139371>The cloning scenario is a possibility because that's who Vivio is, a clone. That's an assertion that needs to be demonstrated, this is the last time I repeat this to you. And no, Vivio being a clone in a different continuity is not good evidence in support of the claim that Vivio being a clone in Innocents too, just like we don't have enough reason to conclude that Fate is an artificial mage in Innocents either just because she's so in almost every other continuity.>My issue is that you decided that your interpretation is the only correct one.That's not what I'm claiming, that's not something that's even possible to do if you have a sound epistemological model. Vivio being Nanoha and Fate's biological daughter in Innocents is what most of the community believes, what I believe, and I argued the position when you questioned how to get to this conclusion.
>>4139381My evidence is not worse than yours. And again, I don't claim she's a clone in Innocents. But she might be one, it's reasonable to think so based on the wider context of the franchise. No, the lack of magic doesn't mean Vivio can't be a clone in Innocents because those are completely unrelated concepts.Then what are you claiming exactly?I like the idea of Vivio being NanoFate's biological. I also acknowledge the right to believe that she's a clone. I don't understand why this simple point causes you so much pain.
>>4139406>NanoFate's biological daughter
>>4139366>I'm not sure if that was a stylistic choice or what.Not sure either, but I think it was just cause how things were during that scene. As you said, Yunno is nowhere near the picture. He stays within the library and Vivio addresses him as Chief Librarian or Nanoha-mama sensei. Does he say anything about his or Vivio relationship in the soundstages?
>>4139406>But she might be oneThere isn't a facepalm.png in existence that reflects my reaction when I read this.As I said in my previous post, I won't repeat myself again to point out the same. I rest my case.
>>4139413Other than Vivio spending a lot of time on the library with Yuuno (and Arf) before Vivid, I don't remember anything of importance. Yuuno and Arf don't really have much of a presence or relevance after A's.
>>4139414As I said in my previous post, your assertion that Vivio can't be a clone needs to demonstrated. You didn't do it.I can tell you why you're having so much trouble elaborating on your claim. Because it's not based on anything substantial. You wrote so much about reason and inference but you never specified what exactly you're inferring from. You simply want it to be true. Unfortunately, it's not enough for a proper argument.I'm not going to facepalm and shrug it off. I'm also very pedantic and don't fall for smoke and mirrors.
>>4139509Anon, Innocent is over. Whatever reason they had for that comment was never elaborated upon. Why are you so anal about the most common interpretation of that scene? Do you want some hard proof about Nanoha and Fate are fucking or something? Well, it doesn't exist. Does that damper your enjoyment? Then this franchise isn't for you.
>>4139576I have no problem with the interpretation as I said from the start >>4138733We were not arguing about whether Nanoha and Fate are a couple, it goes without saying.A better question would be why is the other anon so anal about Vivio being a clone.
>>4139576>Do you want some hard proof about Nanoha and Fate are fucking or something?Not in Innocents, we agree, but their sex life is implied to be very active in the main continuity, which is what most people care about.>>4139594>A better question would be why is the other anon so anal about Vivio being a clone.Stop attacking a strawman, Anon, I never claimed that your scenario was not possible, I even gave you the only thing I could think of that could make an argument for your hypothesis work: >>4139299 I did more for your case than you have done the whole thread.
>>4139614>their sex life is implied to be very active in the main continuity,Was this mentioned in the soundstages? I like the pictureWho made it? & What's being interpreted? I know its display relationship and character interactions. Do you mind explaining a little bit in detail
>>4139614You're not going to fool me. Again, I initially said that I have no doubt that the biological child scenario is possible. Yet you found a problem with that statement: >>4138758>specifically makes the use of the word birth instead of adoption, it doesn't leave any room for doubtYou insisted that the biological child scenario is the only possibility. Now you're claiming the opposite. So which is it? Make up your mind.
>>4139414It's really funny to see that used as a reaction image. Thanks for the laugh anon.
>>4139865This reply was also mine: >>4138935 I conceded for this discussion that the semantics used by Vivio in the Innocents panel could also refer to being cloned. I wouldn't be attempting to come up with an argument for your case if that wasn't the case >>4139299 And I'm pretty much forced to do so since I already gave up on you actually arguing for the possibility of your hypothesis.
>>4139898If you think that the cloning scenario is possible than there's no need to argue for its possibility.Nevertheless, you didn't argue for the possibility of your own hypothesis so I'm not obligated do it either.
>>4139924Anon, I even made an argument in syllogistic form for it.
>>4139925The premises post? I explained that both of them are wrong. It's the same hypothesis just written differently.And regardless, I can copy your post word for word and present as my argument. I hope you're satisfied.
>>4139937>I explained that both of them are wrong.There is direct evidence contradicting your claims >>4138716 as mentioned here: >>4139299>I can copy your post word for word and present as my argumentYes, that's how valid arguments work. But you will run into the issue mentioned here >>4139299 by doing what you suggest. I gave you a helping hand in how it can be solved in that same post, but I now know that you have no interest in making the argument yourself, so it's fine to leave it at that.
>>4139948>A time traveler from the future will be born if nothing conditional for their birth is altered in the present.Show us where exactly in the picture anyone says that Vivio won't be born. No one said that. It's just your hypothesis.>Nanoha and Fate getting knowledge about Vivio's birth in the present will produce a paradox. Einhard said that it might cause some unknown paradox, not that it will definitely happen. Your premise is wrong.I won't run in any issue. I'm not obligated to show anything because you yourself didn't show how Vivio won't be born if her future legal guardians learn about it.
>>4139989>Show us where exactly in the picture anyone says that Vivio won't be born. No one said that. It's just your hypothesis.That's a general statement, that's how premises work, and then you use connecting terms to form a conclusion.In regard to this specific premise, it's alright if you don't agree with the prevailing narratives surrounding time travel in fiction, I too know they don't make any scientific sense, but I also accept that this is what the target audience expects from this type of plot.>Einhard said that it might cause some unknown paradoxYou're right, just amend the argument acknowledging the risk of Vivio not being born instead of asserting it as a fact. I think it was what I meant to write. I also wrote "Conclusions" in plural by mistake.>I'm not obligated to show anything because you yourself didn't show (...)That's not how argumentation works, every argument is independent unless the conclusion of one is used as a premise of another. You're not obliged to present the argument just because you're not forced to defend anything.
>>4140001What narratives exactly? Absence of clones? Be more specific.First of all, you have no right to speak for the entire audience.Second, you don't know what the audience expects.Third, I can do the same. The audience knows that Vivio is a clone and expects her to be a clone. The ad populum fallacy is very convenient but it's not an argument.>That's not how argumentation works, every argument is independent unless the conclusion of one is used as a premise of another. You're not obliged to present the argument just because you're not forced to defend anything.I have no idea what you're talking about. Let's recap.We all agree that both scenarios are possible. But then you say I have to "show how Vivio won't be cloned if her future legal guardians learn about it". It doesn't make sense because we've already established it's possible.Maybe what you meant was that the scenario is possible if it's proven possible. Okay, then the same logic is applied in return. Your scenario is possible if you show how Vivio won't be born if her future parents learn about it. Since you brought a claim, it's on you to back it up. It's fair, that's how argumentation works.
>>4140126>What narratives exactly? Absence of clones? Be more specific.Like I said, the prevailing narratives surrounding time travel in fiction, in general. I was talking about the expectations of how time travel works in fiction, the rest of your post is not relevant to this. The first premise is a general premise, not a premise about Innocents, the second premise, which was amended, makes a specific reference to Innocents.>I have no idea what you're talking about. The truth value of argument A is independent of the truth value of a second B, unless you can show that there is a relation, like one argument using the conclusion of the other as a premise. I don't know how else I can explain this to you. You could have saved a lot of time if you tried to study some basic epistemology and argumentation like I suggested before.> Your scenario is possible if you show how Vivio won't be born if her future parents learn about it. Since you brought a claim, it's on you to back it up.This is completely right, but is not what I said in the previous post. We can cheat and still count it as progress, though.
>>4140133Where you got that pic from lol
>>4140133>I don't know how else I can explain this to you.But I do know how you can explain everything to me. That's why I ask you concrete questions. The problem is that you avoid them.For example, you for some reason refused to elaborate on narratives. I don't know what's going on inside your head unless you write it, I'm not a telepath. It feels like you have no idea what you're talking about either at this point. But you're too stubborn to admit it and resort to posting vague and meaningless sequences of words.What is A, what is B? What does the English alphabet have to do with anything? For what purpose did you post that? I don't know. You should stop, think carefully and start explaining again from the beginning.You certainly didn't say the quoted part because it's from my post that I personally wrote. Once again I'm completely confused. >>4140159Looks like mekimeki.
>>4140173>But you're too stubborn to admit it A flat earthed once called me "too skeptical", but I assure you my primary focus is on critical thinking, promoting rational discourse and pursuing the belief of only true things. I have already changed my position about two specific ideas in this thread by your suggestions. >(...) and resort to posting vague and meaningless sequences of words.Most of our misunderstandings are probably due to faulty communication, and if that's the case I'm probably the one with most blame since English is not my primary language.>What is A, what is B?It's just the name of two arguments, you don't have to use letters, but if I didn't word the explanation that way it would've looked even closer to what I wrote in the original sentence you wanted to be explained.>You certainly didn't say the quoted part because it's from my post that I personally wrote. Once again I'm completely confused. Sorry, I don't know what part of your post you're talking about. If I didn't address something, it might be because I didn't think I needed to.>Looks like mekimeki.Yeah, I think it's from Mekimeki.>>4140159
>Making sweets is pretty tough, huh~>Y-yeah. You have to put quite a bit of strength into it, huh?>Fate-chan, you've got some chocolate on your chee-...>>You've got chocolate on you, Fate~!>Ah, really.>So that was an option.>Licking that much tickles.>But it's so delicious!
>>4160260Thanks for the translations, Anon.
>>4135260Tanuki Kamogawa. They did a lot of Nanoha doujins.
>>4068935I thought Symphogear was getting new content soon? Am I just retarded and misremembering things?
Very rare Lindy content.
