I played WoW from January 2005 to several months into Burning Crusade. The game focus going from leveling to endgame made the game feel stale and boring. It was so sad seeing the game ruined. And then the flying mounts that made the already tiny continent feel smaller.

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The vanilla dungeons are so fucking kino. Which is your favourite?

>>732657720
>ugh leveling good, raiding bad
then just log out as soon as you hit max level and make a new character
nothing is stopping you from endlessly grinding quests

>>732657504
I never reached 60. I always stopped at around 50 because Stranglethorn was over and the higher areas were just recolored mobs from earlier.

>>732658165
Brd is probly the best thing theyve ever done

>>732658165
scarlet monastery is a work of art

If levelling is your thing, look up Project Ebonhold. Roguelite WoW basically, death resets you to level 1 so you can do it again but keep some progress. No PvP, fuck off somewhere else for that

>>732658165
BRD remains my favorite dungeon to this day.
That personal mole machine that you could get during brewfest, which would teleport you to the grim guzzler, was the best item they ever added.

some people wow captured to milk dry are ones who obsessively level alts

its objectively braindead way to spend time tho
you can excuse doing it once for seeing the world, being immersed in the story being told and the usual psychological tricks you get to push you to grind
And wow obviously then created the dungeon, raid environment where you need specific classes or builds to give them an excuse to have lots of alts and waste time paying more of the sub when no real new content exist

>>732658380
>leveling good, raiding bad
Yes

>>732658165
I was always partial to maraudon and dire maul east

>>732658165
deadmines
scarlet monastery
blackrock depths
stratholme

>>732658165
brd just because I met the most fun people in those runs. if the group sticks around everyone gets a little crazy just trying to find the ending.

the early game is a period of growth. the late game is monotonous routine and doing your chores

>>732661131
Mists of pandaria launch with the endless grind of dailies really made me think its time to quit playing

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It was fun.

>>732661378
Dailies grind got out of hands in late TBC with the Sunwell patch. Sure MoP had a fuckton of dailies, but it's not like it started it, not even close.
I liked the farm

>>732657504
Sorry unc but in classic you can just swim from menethil harbor a short way to the shore near the mountains, log out and using a 2nd character do the unstuck option on your main and it will teleport you to iron forge, skipping that cringe ass boomer death walk.

>>732661378
Every expansion from TBC onwards had a ton of dailies at the start.

>>732657504
So play FFXI ior EverQuest nstead
Leveling is more of a focus

>>732658165
BRD is like invading a civilization. Really amazing and time demanding. Upper is meh in comparison.

The focus on the endgame has always been a weird part for me. If I could a raid for a bunch of long quest chains, I absolutely would. Back when I played vanilla WoW for the first time, a ton of my guildies would just chill at random levels. I've had plenty of mates who were like level 50-55 for weeks., just on to chill around in the world.

Modern MMO developers fundamentally don't understand that the point of a MMO is the massive part, it's no point if you just make a dungeon simulator.

>>732657504
Most adults realize that.

>>732658165
>sm
>gnomeregan
>deadmines

>>732657504
If it wasnt pay sub to play Id like to be able to jump on every so often to level a character. Going back to classic was fun, I do not like the idea of paying a subscription for a game I want to play slowly.

>>732661967
>No Boomer, I don't want to play the game! Why would I ever want to experience something fun and memorable when I can cheat!

>>732662809
yeah but even when wow lost 90% of its peak sub base it still makes more money than pay once play forever model

>>732657504
>freshy
>level to 30
>quit
shrimple ass

>>732658165
BRD, Maraudon

>>732657504
>still remember that first run
Levelling was great, when there was still a world to explore, before the blank corners of the map got filled in.

>>732663246
As a teen playing wow and figuring out you just keep going and finding new places seemingly forever was pretty strange

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>The BEST part of WoW was when players mattered, World PVP was WoW!
any game that attempts a focus on wpvp crashes and burns because of it and wow tried to bring it back in a big way but dropped it because it sucks
>Why did WoW lose the SOCIAL ELEMENT? Retail retards are soulless and WoW needs to get back to being a social game
WoW stopped being a social game when other better forms of social media developed which didn't exist when WoW first created, and WOW does have a social element if you're a raider
>Why do raiders want cheats that play the game for them? WoW should ban addons
nobody who has said this has ever proven they actively CE raid and when WoW tried to remove addons from raids in DF they were the worst raids in modern wow
>Retail has ruined the game with all of its changes...classic WoW is just retail without the modern nu-blizzard shit ruining it
Classic WoW is a novelty at best and there wasn't even a subscriber spike when Classic Wrath released
>Retail is just a M+ maze...retail players have to refarm their gear every patch!!
no one who has said this has ever offered an explanation for what would be better and removing gear progression means people won't want to run content
>Why does WoW only make content to cater to the 0.001% sweaty Mythic players?
Every attempt at interim-difficulty content gets nerfed to shit immediately because redditors and casuals believe they are entitled to all rewards of any content they can physically enter. Casuals are why the content looks Mythic-catered, not Mythic players
>I don't even care about nu-WoW anymore
every person who says this is carrying around an umbilical cord to this game they will never cut
>My opinion matters because I was a real raider in Cataclysm or I did MoP challenge runs
I know many people who returned to WoW after being one of these people and every last one of them was fucking horrible and eventually quit again because they couldn't stand being the worst player in the room.

>>732662590
yeah, that was my experience too. leveling WAS the game for the vast majority of players

>>732658165
i like zul farrak for some reason. my time in tanaris is super memorable for some reason

>>732657504
Once I realised all the quests were doing the same 4 tasks a lot of the excitement and mystery vanished for me. But the game is still comfy if you just switch your brain off and enjoy watching numbers go up.

>>732662590
Leveling is cool because of the feeling of progression but it's also really limiting, like once you've completed a quest or leveled past it there is no reason to go back and do it again or even visit the zone, the majority of players will eventually move on towards endgame and leave the earlygame dried up.
Consider the following, there are no levels. Everyone starts out as a max level character but are still required to go through the zones one by one and quest like the regular game. Instead of levels keeping you from venturing outside your zone there are unlocks required which you gain from beating the zone, like a power giving you the ability to fight "stronger mobs" that would otherwise kill you without the unlocks. It's the same kind of progression as leveling repackaged in a different, more useful form. Now players can go back and redo the quests for monetary gain or some other form of progression like reputation for example. you can have group quests, raid quests, dungeons, world bosses, all kinds of shit that will be accessible forever.
How about it?

>>732657504
WoW is thoroughly unenjoyable garbage.

>>732663132
Yeah I was gonna say 30 is about where the leveling stops being fun. Early zones are plentiful with quests and you've got options of where to level. At about the midpoint the quests dry up, quest banding gets all fucky, and you're just bouncing around the whole world trying to find where the goddamn yellow quests are hiding because everything is either red/orange or green.

>>732658165
for me it's Zul'Farrak and Sunken Temple
>>732663876
it's really memorable, but if you go there, the zone kind of sucks. big, bland, and half the map is bug zones.

>>732664218
>like once you've completed a quest or leveled past it there is no reason to go back and do it again
I went back and did it again because it was fun. Leveling alts taught me how to play different classes and experience different parts of the game I didn't get to see the first second or third time around.

Endgame forced me to do the same raids and dungeons again and again just to get a marginally better stat stick which is a fate worse then death for me.
>move on towards endgame
I didn't do this because it turned the video game into a literal job which was unnecessary for me because I have a job that pays me money in exchange for my efforts.
>Consider the following, there are no levels
Boo
>How about it?
Sounds like you reinvented leveling but worse

>>732658165
>Seeing Deadmines for the first (actually second) time
>Shredder
>Dreadnought

>>732657504
I remember having almost every quest memorized right before TBC. Good times.
>in vent with friends
>wtf where do i go for <quest>
>oh, you just here. then it will tell you to collect this. then finally go to this exact location
>wtf, how do you remember all this?
Stopped playing around the Ulduar raid because my guild master gave his brother my item even though I hadn't received an item in weeks, was always top DPS, and his brother was always bottom DPS.

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>>732658165
I have very fond memories of deadmines. From the first time I ran it and the awe i felt as a kid when I saw the WC2 dreadnaught, only to accidently pull and wipe, to chilling with friends and powerleveling them.
It's a great dungeon, though not the most complex, and it also ties well into a much greater storyline in WoW, leading you to several zones and up to onyxia.

>>732657504
I agree with you

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>>732657504
The fact that bullies made "altoholism" a pejorative statement instead of a state of existence because players love the feeling of exploring and discovering new things made me sad when the game was live. Running endgame content is so boring, you (the player) have to do stupid shit to keep it interesting.

>>732657504
levelling was kino and the zones were neat with a nice amount of variety, felt more like a world than the dimension/region tourism that the expansions felt like

I'll always enjoy levelling on a comfy vanilla private server every few years despite starting in TBC when I played retail, its just better

>>732665501
his brother needed it more than you.

>>732666331
firestone is such a strange skill. it's almost like they intended warlock to have some melee capabilities but half-assed it completely. it's a relic forgotten during development like throwing and fist weapons.

>>732657504
Not really but as leveling up in mmos go, its the best experience for sure

>>732663728
>wrath
>classic

Classic WoW is so powerful that more projects than I even know of are being developed by many different teams around it from remixes to new attempts at expansions.
There's always going to be some kind of way to play classic/vanilla in some way, whether thats blizzards official version or a private server and thats it.
There wasn't a "sub spike" for Wrath because despite nostalgia it very obviously wasn't as good and what came after it killed WoW forever.

>>732666501
There were a lot of weird builds in Vanilla. Even Priests had a melee build, with Human Priests having a Shaman-style weapon enchant that was a mana burn..

>>732662590
It's an old MMO problem
Normal people play the game and enjoy it
Raidfags are always complaining and extremely vocal even if they're a minority
Therefore devs get the idea most people want raids and content which only exists to railroad people into raids since it's the feedback they get

>>732666651
All that shit was early beta. Early beta disc priest was supposed to be like an EQ monk, which is why the disc priest tree in vanilla was some half cocked mess

>>732666863
Nope, it was in live. I played around with it for shits and giggles, and I never played in Beta. It was removed in the Priest rework.

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The fact of the matter is that old WoW was great at the time and is a product of a bygone era. That game is "solved" and has been for decades now and Classic is proof that modern MMO players are cancer

>>732657504
Sure thing grandpa go back to leveling in classic again lmao

hell yeah TBC let's go! all those great quests with amazing, heart wreching stories and exciting action I just can't wait, gosh i can't wait to level again. Man I'll be even more excited to level through WoTLK again next year!

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>>732667546
True I can't wait to get to 70 an-
>wasn't 70 the first possible day
>already behind
>no groups will invite me for anything
>no keys or access to any Heroics at all

>>732658165

Deadmines, ZF, BRD

Simple as

>>732667610
All these classic faggots are always going on about how the leveling is important and should be kept in but they NEVER fucking engage with it.

You can see it right now on TBC classic by /whoing the dungeons and 90% of the cunts are in them because they are too pussy to level out in the open world where maybe the mobs are being camped by the opposite faction and what if I have to fight them oh no

They all boost their character to skip the vanilla leveling too

You might as well just make a retail character and run around raping the world for loremaster at this point because who gives a fuck

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>>732662590
yeah back in the day you had regular games in every battleground bracket and people were doing professions to get the best possible gear to do PvP with if not crush it in 5 mans later. I remember spending a few hours grinding smithing and making myself some armor to gank horde with on my paladin at like level 27 then going to ashenvale where you had regular pvp squads running up and down the roads just for the fun of it. Nowadays everyone just wants to get to 60 asap. that was literally 20 years ago now though.

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>>732666501
What's funny to me is you can look up old comments about Firestone and see players defending it.

Is it true that back in vanilla you could queue into a game of AV, leave for a couple of hours to do something, come back, and the same AV game would still be going on?

>>732668158
yes because people were really bad at the game back then

>>732668158
the games did last for a very long time because back then it was played like a giant tug of war with huge fronts pushing against each other instead of a pve race.

>>732668158
This is vastly over-exaggerated, but it was possible. Slow internet connections, considerably more free time, players completing quests in AV, farming reagents, and stupidly fighting to the death just to have the middle graveyard really slowed down the BG. Once players realized it was significantly more rewarding to avoid midfield and have a DPS rush to Drek/Stormpike ended those kinds of games.

any good pservers that arent turtle

>load up tbc anniversary
>all my guildies are chatting and having fun
>run 3 dungeons
>feel so bored
>close game
>havent opened it since
its just missing something vanilla had

>>732667882

This. You look at the top "classic" streamers and they are spamming dungeons and the excuse they use is "i do all the quests at 70 for epic mount gold"

okay thats still min maxing the game to the enth degree to suck all the enjoyment out of it. Without fail the Classic community finds a way to min max the fuck out of the game. Similarly to Anniversary, im personally a fan of GDKP's having seen how they work on Era, so when i saw them banned i knew the community would come up with some other bullshit to circumvent actually raiding with a guild and using a fair loot system. Now we have people paying gold outside the game or RMT over discord for items or people hard rezzing all the big ticket items, leaving casual players in an even worse position.

the only genuine "classic" feel i had was playing on private servers where admins actually gave a fuck and made changes quickly before certain things got too out of hand. Nublizz doesnt give two fucks.

im gonna play the shit out of Classic+ though

>>732662809
play turtle wow
it's lightly modded f2p classic

>>732668158
Yes but the other posters are clueless
It lasted forever because people were farming rep for the mace and kill honor was much more significant than whatever you got from a win.

>>732667946
> I remember spending a few hours grinding smithing and making myself some armor to gank horde
Same, sorta. I remember back in BC-ish would step leveling characters to farm BGs for hours to get one of the pieces of BG gear to help level. I think I eventually realized the time spent in BGs could be used to push through the levels and make the gear useless, but it was a fun break. getting into a BG with a bunch of mixed level players that were all equally shit led to some enjoyable games.

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>>732657504
this is while i'll never understand people running fucking dungeons from 60 - 70 in BC anniversary, my guild is full of psychos who have just spent the past 3 days grinding dungeons to 70 and insta buying their epic flying with gold they bought with irl money, what the fuck are they going to do for the next year? raid log?

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>>732668520
The best experience I had with WoW in ages was with SoD. It was the first time in over a decade that people were actually out in the world grouping and questing together, and actually sometimes asking questions about where to go for things like runes.
I spent hours with a group running around westfall killing shit and sometimes getting fucked by overpulling knolls, the dust devils, and just looking for a spot that wasn't cleared already. Later on I ran into a druid who was really chill, and we did the entirety of wetlands together in an afternoon. It was great.
It's a shame blizzard bungled the patches as they went on, but at least some of the end game content changes made for a chill raiding experience and Scarlet enclave was a neat raid for being a lot of reused assets and made by a dwindling team.

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>"WoW is an MMORPG"

>remove the massive part by letting players dungeon queue and get fat rewards for it
>remove the multiplayer part by putting in auto-rotations and doing nothing to stop multiboxing
>remove the roleplay part by banning people for /w wrongthink and streamlining classes
>remove the game part by focusing on raidlogging so players wait for 6 days per week

>"WoW is an O"

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>>732657504
Based.
Leveling up in an MMO used to mean something.
60 wasn't an inevitability, you had to work for it.
Then the endgame fags begged for raid content because they saw Lord of the rings and thought shoving 40 fucking people into an rpg fight would simulate the big battles in that when really it was a bunch of dps running around causing raid wipes.

I feel like the reason MMOs stopped treating leveling as the character progression was a combination of Tigole arguing to blizzard it would be logistic nightmare to coordinate 40 people fit enough to clear content without having raids exclusively at endgame and the fact that the multiplayer caused people an addiction to competition.

There is like a retard switch that kicks in during multiplayer where people rush past solo content to obtain a peak they can compete in.
So players disregarded leveling because "anyone could do it" where as having a lot of strong loot at peak level was something they could flex over others. Thus the retarded system of introducing leveling content as window dressing for 2 years of raids was born.

If I had a time machine I'd go back and make an MMO without a level cap, or maybe introduce branching progression like Guild Wars, so people wouldn't autistically fodder themselves into ignoring content for retarded work-simulation grinds they call raids.

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>>732670532
just afk 15 mins every time you want to do a dungeon I guess
wanna play the game? why don't you sit on your ass for 15 minutes bucko

seeing your character on a griffin was maybe fascinating in 2004 and you couldn't even alt-tab back then

>>732670836
The real issue is that EQ retards convinced casuals that the game doesn't really begin until 60+ and your time is being wasted if you aren't getting material rewards. While getting better gear and dinging certainly offered dopamine rushes, what made WoW so addictive for most people was the high of a new experience. The reason people were making alts after getting to ~35 with their "main" wasn't because they were lazy or leveling was too difficult, it's because there was a desire to try something new. The reason people refer to STV as Vietnam and jokingly say they have PTSD from it while also loving the experience is because they never knew who or what they were going to bump into while running through the jungle. The Algaz Gauntlet for nelves trying to get to Elwynn, the UD rogue ganking Lakeshire, the PvP wars between Tarren Mill and Southshore, the Stitches ambushes, the elite Horde NPC patrol in Loch Modan, assraping Alliance in Ashenvale, the Alliance warlock run to Barrens, mind controlling players off the boats in Booty Bay or off the cliffs of Thousand Needles, all these and more were experiences that could only happen while leveling and outside of instanced content. WPvP made it possible to have players constantly have "new" experiences and be on-edge. It made the rush of completing a quest dump or getting to a new town even higher. It made farming reagents and mobs keep players glued to their screens, because one never knew when a rogue would pop out of the shadows trying to get a free kill.

Ironically, the same problem that killed WoW also killed Dark Souls, the fear of bad red man beating the shit out of bad players who genuinely could never git gud without getting better gear and avoiding the PvP aspect entirely. Hence why end-game rushing through instanced content and buying all of the best gear possible is the "best" strat. "Be safe in a bubble and get the most OP gear so no one can ever hurt you."

>>732668418
Ascension is the only one worth playing. It's wow for people who have played the game for decades and has a bunch of ways to keep it fresh while also having systems that encourage restarting your characters and going through the leveling process over and over which, as OP correctly noted, is the best part of the game.

>>732670532
Actually it's technicly still a game so modern WoW is just OG.

>>732658165
My fondest memories were of of Maradon
>Two separate entrances complete with a psuedo-dungeon opener.
>One weird evil fungus hell
>the other satyr den
>both converge in a corrupted river
>you end up in a beautiful lush cave
>hidden boss fight in the lake.

>>732658165
Sad how Ragefire is basically the weakest of them all. Really felt like a "Oh shit what are we going to do for the HORDE dungeon!"

>>732671367
but the souls games are singleplayer adventure games

>>732671367
The EQ retards were able to convince people that was the case because more so because of that competitive show-off-manship aspect than pvp.

The world pvp played a roll, especially in vanilla where PVP gear rewards were ass compared to raids before the retarded fun killing pvp split. So yeah there was merit in being 60 with top raid gear in pvp.

But ultimately, the "rush to endgame" came from this idea that leveling up wasn't special once they introduced the big bad raids. The standard of power was changed and the playerbase valued gear more due to the prestige of raiding being harder to pull off.

The concept would have never taken off if blizzard kept things small scale, kept leveling up difficult near the end and kept dungeon experiences to 5 people.

>>732670995
>wanna play the game? why don't you sit on your ass for 15 minutes bucko
yes retard, traveling takes time. You know, just like real life?

>>732657504
>exploring a dangerous world
>doing quests
>meeting strangers and potentially questing together
>maybe doing pvp if you're on a pvp server
Leveling was always the best part of MMOs for me, that and just being in the world. I could not give a fuck about doing raids beyond the first few times.

>>732658861
>Everyone who played vanilla hated brd
>for wotlk kids it's favorite dungeon
really makes you think

>Classic dungeon layouts
>TBC heroic trash packs & tuning
>SoD bosses
>Delete raiding or make it secondary to dungeons
There, I saved Classic+

Project Epoch Wailing Caverns was one of the best dungeons I've ever experienced. It's a shame that the project imploded.

>>732657504
its more that wow was only interesting when you were retarded and nobody was correcting you.

for example, why the fuck would you walk through wetlands when you can just hug the coastline from the boat and go to westfall?

>>732657504
I recently started playing HorizonXI (FFXI private server that is reverted to early lvl 75 era) and the magic immediately came back. The erosion happened so slowly but you just realize that new games have absolutely no friction.

WoW getting popular really fucked everything up for everyone.

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nah m+ dungeons are fun, you're just too retarded to play them and have to resort to mindless boring vanilla 1 button rotation levelling

>>732657504
I always said this. Endgame was always ass. Pvp was fun for a ahile till wotlk ruined it

>>732670995
Just chat with your guildmates and enjoy the scenery bro

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>>732658165
its gotta be BRD, man. Not just because its so legendary in general, but i am just a real sucker for underground cities. always been a setting in hugely into. also like downs and kraul for a similar reason with the domed thorn ceiling, though they arent super good dungeons, really.

>>732657504
how is new player experience on the TBC server right now.

>>732657504
I just fuck around on Turtle hardcore now. There's nothing else left for me.

>>732672462
Yeah, Project Epoch was a mix of great stuff and a lot of messy bullshit. Mismanaged, poor launch, and there was like one or two designers that were just unhinged. Wailing Caverns was fantastic there, with a really well-designed layout and a nice glowup. Meanwhile, Deadmines was ridiculously tough on that server, which was stupid because it's the first dungeon for the majority of the playerbase. Like, I was a warrior tank that was a bit overleveled for it and had great gear, and Sneed was still chunking me for a quarter or more of my HP per auto attack AFTER he got out of the robot. WC was comparatively much easier and much better designed. Glittermurk was great, a lot of the new areas and overworld dungeons were great, but then suddenly BRD was on crack. It just felt like you'd get random difficulty spikes out of nowhere because some of the devs had hard-ons for overtuned content.

It's a shame that it kind of just fell apart and had Bronzebeard steal its lunch. It was cool, even with the flaws.

I 'member when shaman were allowed to tank RFC and WC.

I 'member when players wanted druid tanks and paladin tanks for high-level dungeons.

I 'member when players wanted druid healers because their HoTs kept their threat low.

I 'member when players wanted paladins in groups for more than just their buffs.

I 'member when warriors were allowed to tank without needing to go deep prot.

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>>732658165
BRD is a standout obviously.

I always loved Zul'farrak. I'm a huge trollaboo in general, and Tanaris was one of my favorite zones. I enjoy pretty much everything about that dungeon, including the absolutely convoluted sequence of events to summon Ghaz'rilla.

Wailing Caverns is also a favorite, if just because I think it's really cozy somehow. Also I enjoy long dungeon crawls in general.

>>732673165
What was the deal with giving shamans aggro skills if they weren't allowed to tank?
Hell, what was the deal with giving warlocks a high aggro spell in Searing Pain?

>>732657504
For me it was Duskwood.

>>732672848
Arena ruined pvp ability based pvp doesnt work without context and
>lol just kill the enemy
is a shit context

>>732657504
Leveling was free form sandbox adventure.
It was kino
Non autistic people yearn for freedom and andventure

>>732673223
Over the years. I played through ZF so many times I still rember pull order of whole dungeon.

>>732673241
Original class design cared about flavor more than function. Shaman could use shields, therefore shaman were able to "tank". They were the more magical hybrid compared to paladin, so in exchange for only getting mail armor, they had spells that could quickly generate threat on top of auto-attack Rockbiter swings. In practice shaman as a tank fell apart due to how crushing blows worked mechanically, and the class gets nothing for +defense (though, interestingly enough, paladin is so dependent on getting critically hit it DOESN'T want +defense, which is one of the reasons why it falls off as a tanking class in vanilla).

Searing Pain for warlocks and Scorch for magi were simply the trade-off for a fast-casting damage spell. You don't want to lead with it (unless a mage has Improved Scorch), but it's useful for quickly ending a fight that's getting out of hand in PvE or for casting in PvP to minimize the chance of getting interrupted.

>>732673165
>I 'member when players wanted druid healers because their HoTs kept their threat low.
Innervate

>>732668563
Turtle wow is literally going to get killed soon.
Why even bother?

>>732658165
Man those are all so good except for WC.

>>732673491
Getting lost in WC with the bros was kino.

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>>732657504
FUCK YOU FUCKING NERD DIE. KILL YOURSELF NOW. WORLD OF WARCRAFT IS ALL ABOUT GRINDING. YOU GRIND AND GRIND AND FOR WHAT? WHAT PURPOSE? TO BE lvl ^)? THATS NOT WORTH IT. ITS NOT FUN DIE I HOPE EVRYONE YOU KNOW DIES I HOPE THE WHOLE UNIVERSE HAS A MASS EFFECT AND SWALLOWS ITS SELF AND SHITS YOU OUT ITS DIGESTED ANUS AS A NEW GAME ACTUALLY WORTH PLAYING

>>732673404
>crushing blows
I forgot whole mechanism. Fun times when your tank is almost crit immune. Then boss hits that 0.1% crit with some ability.

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>>732673270
For me it's
>Low level
Westfall
>mid level
tanaris
>high level
WPL and EPL. The redpath questline is one of my favorite.

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>>732658165
mood

>>732658165
Why does Maraudon get 3 pictures but Dire Maul and Stratholme only get 1?

>>732658165
dire maul

>>732673404
So you're telling me that Searing Pain was actually a viable damage spell and not something warlocks had specifically just in case blizzard wanted to design boss fights with mage tanks? Because I remember during vanilla thinking it was for that purpose (I didn't start until AQ was out).

That's pretty insane, never realized you could just use searing pain as an attack in your general rotation (Though to be fair I was a demo lock, not destro)

>>732673270
I always liked zones that are off the beaten path.
Desolate
Badlands
Searing gorge.
Blasted lands
Hinterland
Fellwood

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I feel sorry for modern kids who couldn't experience WoW back in its prime. Say what you want about it but it was a milestone in gaming in the 00s. Everyone played it, or at least knew about it. You might've loved it or hated it but there wasn't anything like it then and ever since.
I will never forgive Activision for killing WoW.

>>732658165
Zul'Farrak my beloved. I usually don't care for deserts but Tanaris just had a slightly different tint for it I guess.

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>>732657504
Love it or hate it, the leveling process is a necessary part of MMOs, it allow you to have a steady flow of players at all levels so that everyone has people to play with. If you just speed to the endgame then it the servers life expectancy will decrease drastically. It also makes class choice important and meaningful.

>>732673791
Desolace was amazing for xp farms. Everyone avoided the place

>>732673958
Best woe zones are those with strong central hub where you adventure out.
Tanaris dose this really well.

>>732658165
DM (deadmines)
SM
Stratholme
BRS
BRD

i'm trans and I play world of warcraft and i'm gunna kill myself for that very reason! Empower me!

>>732657504
No. It was exploring for the first time and getting sidetracked and into various shenanigans with your buddies.
It's been ruined in the modern age because it's all just min-maxing autists.

>>732674046
No one wanted to watch the kodo die.

>>732674046
Desolace. Badlands and tanaris were great for farming xp. Places with lot of enemies and they dropped something valuable.
I rember farming in tanaris to just to level up my first aid and tailoring.

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>>732657504
Hardcore is the closet experience I've had to genuine 2004-2006 WoW. And that's because it put the emphasis back on leveling.

>>732674145
https://youtu.be/3JWTaaS7LdU?si=XpQfqBrIBqi-uh4K

>>732658165
BRD is peak. Gnomer is great too, which really speak to how good the "we designed this dungeon as a zone" dungeons are.
Scarlet Monastry is one of the worst things to ever happen to WoW. A clear case of "you think you do but you don't" to be honest.

>>732666501
>It's almost like they intended warlock to have some melee capabilities
After the scrapped the idea of including a Demon Hunter class, there were ideas for melee and tank warlocks, but they never really got off the ground in vanilla.

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>>732674067
>DM (Deadmines)
When did some people start calling DM(Deadmines) as VC(Vancleef)?
I distinctly remember people always calling it DM until suddenly around classic19 people started calling it VC and arguing it had always been that way. I played a bit in vanilla, but was a kid and don't remember as much until I started playing much more in BC, and even then I don't remember anyone calling DM as VC.

>>732674287
>VC
Dunno about other servers, but Jubei'Thos was calling it VC back in 2005.

>>732657504
hit lv10
>go wpvp
hit lv20
>go wpvp
hit lv30
>go wpvp

pve, by extension leveling, was always a means to an end. contested quest zones also lend to organic wpvp so you really couldn't have one interaction without the other.

that being said, gearing for pvp was easily the worst fucking possible thing for classic wow.

>>732674278
>Scarlet Monestary
Explain. All I know about it is it was designed as one instance, then broken into 4 wings because ????

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>>732666602
>There wasn't a "sub spike" for Wrath
Wrath Classic had the biggest population.
If you're referring to sub count when Wrath released, that's because literally everyone who was going to play WoW was already doing so.

>>732658165
It's probably a bad idea but I really wish they made SM a full dungeon instead of it being separated into wings

>>732674452
Scarlet Monastery's simplistic linear wings and 1 main boss focus was easy for people to digest compared to complex shit like Gnomer. So it became popular. Blizzard response was to turn all of TBC dungeons wing based linear corridors (albeit with more bosses) per wing and killed off complex dungeon design.

>>732674523
Ah, yeah you're right now that you mention it there wasn't anything like the old "halls and halls filled with trash with some areas not even worth going into" shit until Grim Batol was made.

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>immolate
>fear
>corruption
>life drain
How do you respond without sounding mad /v/?

>>732674829
I drop tremor and grounding totems and windfury his face off

>>732674278
There's a Warlock boss in BC that uses a two handed sword, real shame they never went with melee focused warlocks it would have been kino.

>>732674523
It's tragic it became that because SM isn't really a bad dungeon and its a nice contrast and balance to other places like RFK/Mara. Blizzard just either learned the wrong lesson or just gave up on crafting huge dungeons because of the effort required. It's a shame because vanilla dungeons are some of the best dungeons because they feel like a place in the world rather than a complete loot rollercoaster like many that came after.

>>732673275
agreed.
the fun was in the ability to adapt to the situation as it was. there are no dedicated LOS zones, no free refresh on your long 5-30min cds in the open world. if you were caught with no cooldowns they don't magically refresh after a loss. you had to weigh your options. you can't just concede and queue up for the next match: you ate a death and a corpse run or you turned it around and shit on the other player.

arenas were the same boring bullshit with premade meta comps and dedicated strategies where you can't exhibit any creative freedom whatsoever without gimping your team.

>>732674987
>kills ur totem in .01 sec with pet focus script
oepsie

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>>732675009
>real shame they never went with melee focused warlocks it would have been kino.
Demon Hunter as a spec would have been cool but definitely comes with a lot of questions about which spec does it replace and how do you handle the pets and lore. I get why they did it but it's still strange that WoW launched without DH.

>>732666501
I always thought they were designed like a health stone to be given to other players but this was changed due to them being broken.

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>>732674829
>Berserker rage
>intercept
>recklessness
>Kill
I'll probably die from dots, but this usually kills 95% of locks unless they are actually good at pvp and have a bunch of consumes.

>>732675278
>soulstone
Rofl kek enjoy the corpse walk NIGGER!

>>732675156
>>732675009
>>732674278
>>732666501
>>732667991
>Demonology
>Arcane
>Discipline
>Combat
Why did blizzard keep failing to come up with "a third talent" so often?

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>>732675316
>darkmoon card: Twisting Nether
Never leave home without it.

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>>732674829
>season 2 warlock in full arena kit
i respond by dying like a retard because this asshole is full drainlink build and nothing in the game can dent him
>friend used to tank heroics with his drainlink arena warlock
>mfw
fucking stupid ass game

>>732673790
It wasn't a part of your general rotation. Scorch and Searing Pain secretly had higher crit chances attached to them. You'd use them in PvP because:
A) Faster cast time;
B) High crit chance and damage;
C) Has no animation tail (unlike Fireball and Shadowbolt which had a tail, Scorch's and Searing Pain's animations were directly on the enemy only)

Twin Emperors in AQ does want warlock tanking, but that's not what those two spells were designed for in PvP. They were specifically to kill low-health enemies quickly. The extra threat on them, along with the higher crit chance, were meant to discourage using them normally. However, Imp. Scorch was such a huge DPS increase that one mage in a raid was a dedicated Scorch spammer once MC and BWL were cleared.

>"mmorpg"
>look inside
>combat simulator and everything is in service to combat
>maybe dress up dolls and a dollhouse if you're lucky
there must be more to this genre...

>>732675491
>demonology
>failure
soul link is the strongest singular talent point in the entire game
felguard pre-patch and the first ~5 months of original TBC was the most retarded kill-your-ass shit in the game and nothing else came close to it, not even original/pre-nerf deathknights the expansion afterward
>see enemy
>send felguard
>they lose 60% of their health before the intercept stun is over
>warlock still free to do whatever the fuck they want meanwhile, while having ridiculous levels of %damage reduction
demo warlocks routinely 1v5'd entire squadrons of shitters back then

>>732675650
Soul Link was really good in vanilla but you can't say that Demonology talents actually made Demo Locks "useful" for anything damage wise.
It wasn't until BC where the Felguard came into existence that demo felt strong.

>>732658165
Most will probably say BRD but for me it's SFK.
It was spooky and had worgen when they were werewolves and not furfags.
Loved chill farming lvl 19 twink gear there.

>>732675491
They didn't know how to translate 2e mechanics into a 3D MMO properly. Combat rogue makes sense. Sub rogue and survival hunter are the ones that don't make sense because WoW rogues, unlike 2e D&D thieves, don't have traps; hunters do, even though rangers in 2e didn't.

In another reality, sub rogues are the ones using traps to ambush enemies with debuff penalties BEFORE actually using their ambush/cheap shot skill, while hunters are using survival to be stealth melee class taking advantage of their mail armor, two-weapon fighting, and pet to deal consistently high DPS.

As for Discipline, as already discussed, it was supposed to be a Monk tree before the game was rushed out the door, and Demonology and Arcane are perfectly fine as-is for what Vanilla is.

>that first time dathrohan turns into a dreadlord

>>732675761
>hunter
>melee
Completely retarded, didn't make sense with 95% of their kit is range skills and they'd cause guilds to break over needing two handed weapons over the warriors and shamans in raids.

>>732675704
I remember the firelands patch with the moonwell-thing buff trinket from the vendor was stupid good for demo lock dps burn

>>732675704
Demo wasn't supposed to be a damage tree, it was (and is) a high-survival tree that focuses on abusing one's demons for whatever situation comes up. Soul Link + Improved Spellstone + Improved Voidwalker + Fel Domination + Voidwalker's Sacrifice + Improved Healtstone + Soulstone meant that a Demo warlock had, for all intents and purposes, FOUR health bars that enemies had to peel through to get to them. Add on a bullshit Succubus with Seduce to set up Soul Fire instagibs or a bullshit strong Felhunter to harass enemies while the warlock uses Fel Concentration to spam Drain Life and basically you're fucking stupid for dueling a demolock.

Oh, and let's not forget that Soul Link + Sacrifice + Improved Spellstone allowed for them to use Hellfire to assrape anything standing too close to them.

>>732667882
youre wrong. the reason people spam dungeons to level is because of rep. you need to run a ton of dungeons to grind rep to unlock heroic dungeons, so you might as well kill 2 birds with 1 stone by leveling via dungeons instead of questing then still needing to run dungeons

>>732675491
>>Combat
>THE rogue pve spec is pointless
lel wut. Assassination is the most useless, but it was still popular back in vanilla for ambush-eviscerating clothies in AV.

>>732675831
And Retardin makes no sense when it has no way to deal damage outside of Judgment and auto-attacks, and Lightwell makes no sense because players aren't going to stop focusing on their rotation to click an object that's 30 yards away from them, and Wyvern Sting makes no fucking sense when Scatter Shot does CC better, and on and on and on. Vanilla is a mess, we know. Bitching about melee hunter instead of looking how to make it good on a funserver is retard behavior.

FYI I'm all for retuning hunter skill coefficients, and turning Tame Beast into Charm Beast so hunters only get temporary pets unless they get the 31 talent point in BM to get Tame Beast, and getting rid of Bestial Wrath entirely because that's such a bullshit talent it turns the skill floor of hunter into a skill basement.

>>732675831
People want survival hunters because a) it's cool and b) Beast Master was a hero in War 3. But yes, an absolute pain to balance.

>>732675650
I should clarify that obviously Demo became a realized tree in BC, but in vanilla it was a bunch of random shit with some buffed pets, who happened to have a good defensive in Soul Link.

It wasn't like Destro which just gave you oodles for direct damage or affliction for dots, I don't recall the demons carrying for damage like beast master hunters, so it wasn't viable for that.

>>732675761
I remember combat being more about alternate weapons for rogues with way less emphasis on the stealth mechanic. I guess it did have an identity but I felt like Combat wasn't as common as Sub because it was all about rogues out-of-stealth popping adrenaline rush, popping off ripostes and shit.

The main thing about Sub that was weird is all of stealth attacks were in Assassination and Sub got Hemi which wasn't related to stealth at all.

>Arcane was fine
Wasn't it a bunch of random tools for Fire or Frost and not something that could stand alone?

>>732675903
So if it couldn't do damage what was it good for? Just pvp?

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>>732675704
>damage wise.
dual spec exists so you can just go cuckboy shadowbolt spam in pve, who cares about that
warlock raiding is fucking aids because 90% of it is just handing out skittles and summoning the raid leader's wife when she gets lost in a hallway again
god damn you jennifer you pick-me retard bitch open your fucking map

>>732676051
Combat rogue is all about consistent auto-attack and poison damage with +hit, +offhand damage, and 5-point Slice and Dice. It was the premier PvE spec until clearing AQ and getting horribly unbalanced +attack power gear, which is what made sub rogues pop off. Combat rogues were great for soloing because of the high damage-to-energy ratio of Riposte and its disarm effect as well.

Deep Sub was one of the best builds for BGs because of Preparation allowing for Sprint+Evasion chaining in WSG, and Premeditation allowing for Premed->Ambush->5 point Eviscerate to just clear out any priest or druid healing some asshole. It also had the touch of death by dropping Cheap Shot's energy cost by 10. Hemo increasing physical damage enemies took was related to stealth, in a way, because it gave sub rogues a chance to take out hunters and shaman more easily, or if a warrior or paladin was distracted, using Hemo with Expose Armor.

Arcane's most popular build is PoM/Pyro, but what made it "fine" was that there wasn't anything inherently wrong with it and it could flex in both Fire and Frost spells without feeling detrimental. The "problem" with it is that it didn't have the spectacular damage of Fire or the consistent CC of Frost. It looked like a one-trick pony, but it wasn't. High resistance gear with 5/5 Magic Absorption made it significantly more resilient in PvE than the other specs. Before sweaties "solved" WoW, it was suggested that new mages get high resistance gear and use Arcane to survive encounters and take pressure off of healers.

As for demolock, it WAS doing damage in PvP and was a vital spec for Twin Emp tanking. Demo wasn't brought to PvE or BGs because it wouldn't be able to get both Grim and Destructive Reach, but for WPvP, dueling, and soloing elites, it was unmatched. Even high level dungeons like demolocks because of its massive 20% threat reduction and great buffs from the imp. But again, once sweaties solved the game, that's when it fell off.

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>think about playing TBC
>remember Black Morass exists
>remember every tempest keep dungeon exists
>remember months of karazhan and gruul
>everyone gets so bored of it that every competent guild devolves into parsefaggotry
>all the whining and favoritism bullshit over tier token distribution
>the insane daisy chain attunement processes for every fucking relevant endgame activity
>fucking daily quests
>fucking daily quests with reputation grinds
>reputation grinds in general, constantly, all the fucking time
and i'm supposed to somehow be managing money and tradeskills on top of all this while saving pennies for a 5,000 gold supermount
god damn

>>732676703
>think about playing TBC
>remember that druids get a free "I win" flying form so they can quit WPvP whenever they want
>don't play TBC
as shrimple as that

how do raiders make money if they banned gdkp
i don't want to do dailies...............

>>732676986
How good are you at ERP?
How cute is you're toon??

>>732676986
They buy gold, probably.

>>732657504
no, that's the biggest filter.

>>732676986
they just buy gold lol

>>732657504
These megaservers have made leveling a cancer. Every quest hub has people in it and fighting for tags. You might as well forget that places like stv and tanaris exist because there is always people there at all hours of the day.

It was all part of blizzard's grand plan to buy boosts

Actually you were supposed to communicate with other players, form groups with strangers, complete quests together, go run a dungeon, add them to your friends list, create a guild together, form a raid comp, and become famous by helping each other be the best each of you could be.

Fortunately, boosting put a stop to that time-wasting nonsense.

>>732676986
As a rogue I did pickpocket runs in BRD. Sometimes full cleared the bar using the drinks you buy from the goblin barman. Weaved in Loregrain once I got Brutality Blade for a guaranteed blue. Once I got more geared I farmed the vaults after a full round of pickpocketing.

Was only able to do this because I worked from home during the coof. Saved a ton of gold not buying rogue mats just opening lockboxes.

>>732676703
>think about playing TBC
>only three (maybe four) classes allowed
>hours of dungeon grind
>if you're late you're fucked
yeah

>>732674523
One wonders if there's a good middle ground. I've run WC a hundred times but I still dread it each time.

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>>732657504
>blocks your path

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>>732658165
Blackfathom Deeps for me

>>732677514
There is a good middle ground, it's called "don't make players rely on a third-party add-on to navigate your gigantic dungeon that is totally lacking any signposts or hallmarks and also isn't included in their own map hotkey." Atlas hard-carries dungeons like WC, Gnomer, and BRD because, while they are visually impressive, they generally lack a means of telling the player where they are in the dungeon. It's easier for noobs to do the Gnomer skip than it is for them to actually complete the dungeon normally because of this.

>>732677647
>>732677514
There was a cartography secondary skill in the beta and I wonder if it was meant to serve that function

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>>732677514
>>732677647
Hello.

>>732677891
This was my favorite dungeon to see acquaintances die. The unimaginable seething this caused because it required mental 3D mapping which filtered low-IQ retards was exquisite.

The thing that i hate about modern MMOs is how you're not allowed to play in the pace you want.
You want to take a break for a week or two? You will fall behind cause people will grind the shit out of current content stage in this week and gathering group for quests/dungeons will took forever.

>>732677974
>The unimaginable seething this caused because it required mental 3D mapping
I played with people that displayed object permanence so I sadly never experienced this. MC on the otherhand...

>>732678086
GW2 avoids all of the problems associated with a bad MMO, but then it brings in all of the problems associated with a bad RPG. Truly, we live in a society where we can never have a perfect MMORPG, and thanks to the global forum we never will.

>>732678102
The only thing that gave us problems with MC were needing to tardwrangle nearly 40 people AND that one dipshit who kept "accidentally" Golemagg. There was always one faggot pulling Golemagg and I still seethe about it to this day.

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>>732677647
There's something about getting lost in a dungeon and finding your way together that made it more enjoyable in some ways. Once you became experienced enough, it felt somewhat good to lead a bunch of noobs through, especially if it was something like BRD that had some bosses you could miss, shortcuts you could take, or just interesting spots like the reset spot on the DM dreadnaught. That being said, it's certainly frustrating for some dungeons like WC that disorient you until you've done it 10 times.
I did always wonder why the hell they never made a map for dungeons until around cataclysm. Supposedly the devs thought people would only really go to a dungeon once, so perhaps they thought that by not having a map it made the dungeon seem bigger and add to the sense of exploration for the first time through.

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>>732657504
HOLY FUCKING SHIT

>>732678185
AAAH

>>732677891
Is that the circular one with 5 or so level and you have to kill Priests or whatever on each level? Fuck that place

>>732678178
>and thanks to the global forum we never will
nah its all WoW fault
WoW is incredibly bad MMO and RPG but it's success basically destroyed the genre

>>732678180
I get what you're saying, and I agree from both a social and immersion standpoint. My issue is that everything inside of a non-linear dungeon looks too "samey" which contributes to navigation issues. Outside of instanced content it's easy to get your bearings in WoW because there are plenty of landmarks and signs to make navigation possible. If BRD and Gnomer are cities, and they're supposed to be huge and immersive, then why don't they have signposts like the actual cities in-game? I don't mean "this way to Thaurissan", I mean signage pointing to the Grim Guzzler or the Ring of Law so players aren't constantly circling around. The dungeon would still feel huge, but it wouldn't feel confusing.

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>>732657504
What's your goto class and race?

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>>732678349
>warrior
>"excellent for those who like to take damage"

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>>732678372
>groups will find rogues valuable

>>732678349
Undead warrior

>>732657504
>vanilla
>see a pack of three mobs
>formulate plan to CC one so you can pop cooldowns to deal with the other two before dying

>retail
>unga bunga retard with 50 mobs chasing you doing zero damage

>>732678349
Nelf Hoonter or Human Rogue.

>>732657504
The fact of the matter is that WoW was always shit, it was always normalfag shit. The equivalent of Fortnite back in the days that only kids played.
My proof of this? You played it as a kiid or young teenager.

>>732678349
>paladins are a defensive class designed to outlast their opponents
RETGODS NOT LIKE THIS

>>732678086
I've never touched FF 14 but isn't that how that works? My friend would tell me "don't spoil shadowbringers" whenever I'd mention something I'd see shitposted on /v/ so presumably the way the game works is at-your-own pace progression.

>>732657504
This pic has been posted so many times that I'm actually starting to regret having never levelled up a dwarf or gnome back when WoW was still new and fresh to me. I mostly played Tauren in BC onwards and enjoyed it very much, but only tried to be a dwarf hunter much, much later when the honeymoon was over.

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>>732678492
They're talking about the plot, which is another problem with modern MMOs.

>>732678530
>she never leveled a dorf
what are you, gay??

>>732678349
>Warlock
>debuffer
???

>>732678631
Curse of Shadows/Elements

Uhhh Improved Shadowbolt too, I guess

>>732678589
>they're talking about the plot
Obviously, but if he's not played that expansion and just does previous expansion content with friends, then clearly it's not like WoW was where there was no point in old content when newer content created bypass options.

>>732678178
>needing to tardwrangle nearly 40 people
>one faggot pulling Golemagg
Worst part about the vanilla experience honestly. One retard can ruin it for 39 others. And when you compound it with more than one retard it becomes a literal hellscape. It was my first and only time not being in any officer/lead capacity and I vowed never to do that again unless me or someone I know has the reigns.

So just as you seethe about that one faggot, I'll forever seethe about that one guild I joined.

>>732664494
nothing wrong with green quests

>it's a year 2026
>wow came out almost twenty two years ago
>TBC is nineteen years old
>concept of "let tank pull caster pack and LoS it" is still incomprehensible for 90% of playerbase

>>732678762
how do you do, fellow warrior

>>732678807
>"mortal strike doesn't work with ranged weapons so why bother learning weapon skill"

>>732673165
You can still do all of this today.
Paladins and Druids are completely fine tanks in endgame, just not for bosses.
Warriors can tank just fine in fury until endgame.

TBC is objectively the worst thing that ever happened to WoW.

>>732658165
Mara, had the same multi-wing concept of BRD but implemented it better IMO

>>732673241
>>732673165
Nu-Blizz plans to make a shaman tank spec in Midnight.

>>732678878
WoW is objectively the worst thing ever happened to MMO genre

>>732676703
TBC really ruined the game, fucking piece of shit expansion. When i was a few years younger i used to think it was the best but the more i think in retrospect it was the worst. WotLK and Cataclysm really pushed the game to better direction.

>>732678897
Who cares? Last I checked nu-blizz did fucking a bunch of shit and most of it wasn't good.

Aren't combat rogues pirates now? retarded.

>>732678906
EQ is up there

>>732679026
EQ helped start it as we know MMOs today?

>>732678972
>Flying
>Hallway dungeons
>Resilience
>Blood Elves
>Arena based PvP
>Taking the massive part of MMO out of both raiding and pvp
>lore butchering mess well beyond the pale of even vanilla
>Dailies
>Shattrath
What a fucking shit show.

>>732678906
They perfected the genre in 2004 and no one could touch it since.
Everyone tried to have their own version but it was always just complete disaster and shit. It hurts but WoW is the best there is; especially the older versions when the game had difficulty and classes had more identity. (Tho current WoW is easily the most difficult version of an MMO to exist).

>>732679026
EQ did not cement worst aspects of modern MMO genre, WoW did

>>732678972
>>732679071
TBC's sins simply weren't obvious when they were being made. Only actual geniuses, like 1% of the population, were aware of what was going to go wrong with TBC. I wish that I hadn't been a retarded 16 year-old so I could've spoken up with them about everything TBC would do wrong for WoW and MMOs in general.

>>732678972
Remember all those people talking about "you think you do but you don't" nostalgia for vanilla while pretending that TBC was the peak of WoW and WotLK was the start of WoWs downfall?
TBC is 100% rose-tinted goggles, there's nothing good about it.

>>732678906
Only because MMO devs are retarded and lazy and just mindlessly copy WoW

>>732679096
If you were older than a kid you wouldn't even play WoW at that time, it was the kiddie fortnite game back in the days.

>>732679096
It's success was the worst part as it made the devs reiterate instead of innovate for each following expansion.

>>732679096
People were extremely critical of the lore and raid changes prior to TBC release. Some of these other facts were less understood. It's just that WoW was a cultural juggernaut at the time and a lot of people were starting late vanilla/during TBC and couldn't work this shit out.

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>>732679074
>perfected the genre
>strictly linear vertical progression in every aspect
>dead static world without any player agency or interactivity
>instanced content as the ultimate endgame

>>732679052
Helped turn the genre into the piece of shit it is now, yeah. UO preTrammel was the peak.

>>732679071
>Taking the massive out
Raids were a mistake.

>>732679160
>>732679164
What I was thinking of specifically was releasing an expansion instead of more patches. I lost the image because I needed to throw that hard drive into a microwave, but someone in the old forums called out Blizzard for making TBC an expansion and all of the consequences that would come with that business decision. I'm on board with lore raping and immersion breaking being problems, but I'm focusing solely on the business and ethics decisions when it comes to what TBC did wrong. The fluff and crunch issues are still valid.

I can't even tell you the name of the draenei capital after all these years because I literally couldn't be assed to visit it.

The first time, yes. Any additional times are awful.

>>732679249
>but someone in the old forums called out Blizzard for making TBC an expansion and all of the consequences that would come with that business decision
He was right, and I too think each new expansion making all previous end game content irrelevant in a game that's increasingly only about the endgame is fucking retarded.

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>>732657504
How come the Horde didn't get epic shit like how the Alliance got the whole Onyxia confrontation? Did Blizzard really favour the Alliance?

>>732679394
>making all previous end game content irrelevant in a game that's increasingly only about the endgame
Wow was like that from the very beginning. Nobody cared about wetlands or RFD when they're lvl 50+ and nobody cared about Strat when they're raiding BWL.

>>732679432
They made forsaken playable instead.

>>732679164
You could tell most people were secondaries anyway, the space goat meme came about because nobody recognized the Draenei as a race that "looked like Archimonde?" and people just saw them as a bizarre OC alien race; because nobody knew what an Eredar was because they never played WC III.

This also probably explain why people were mad about their swap with the original Draenei, because people recognized the mobs from Swamp of Sorrows and blasted lands as being Draenei.

It was easier to pretend to know what people were upset about, when the real issue was "Why are we playing as fucking Eredar but holy?".

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>>732679432
They get Warchief's Blessing.

>>732679501
There was a brief time in vanilla where there weren't really bypass dungeons, so to raid one thing required gear from earlier raids.

I think ZG was the one exception where it was tuned to let people to just raid it with their slop gear at 60?

>>732679531
WCB HORDE ONLY

>>732679501
Wetlands and rfd are endgame content?

>>732679582
>>732679615
"making all previous end game content irrelevant in a game that's increasingly only about the endgame" is the problem that grows straight from vertical type of progression.
You can make gear from previous raids mandatory for clearing next raid, but it will fuck up the progression for anyone who joins the game not on release.

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>>732679432

>>732679175
Its not linear. Do you know what it means? Lol.
Classic WoW is very inviting for player interactivity, since it has so many quests that require a group. Even in starting zones.
What should the endgame be then if not instanced?

Its the same shit in every other MMO, and they do all these things even worse.

>>732679698
Not if you include a reason for people to go back and clear old raids.

>>732679715
Reminder that every zone that has both horde and alliance content is heavily horde favored.
Horde is literally the easy mode faction.

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>>732679715
>>732679904

>>732679742
Endgame should have never been the majority of content.
Leveling should have value.

>>732679904
>Horde is literally the easy mode faction.
>orc stun resist
>tauren aoe stuns
>undead will of the forsaken immunities
>troll berserking dps

horde was always busted as fuck until WoTLK when humans got their free pvp trinket racial

>>732680003
but what about +10% rep gain, stoneform, shadowmeld, and escape artist (ignore that escape artist can be interrupted pls)

>>732657720
>The game focus going from leveling to endgame made the game feel stale and boring.
That was always the focus. From day-one people said that the real game starts at 60. It's not even just a WoW thing, going all the way back to UO people would blast through leveling skills as fast as possible to get to the end game.

>>732680135
Damn, my favorite thing was hiding in the bushes at level 39 at the human farm in Hillsbrad and ganking Horde that were trying to quest there and kill named NPCs. I got my rank 3 discount from doing that.

>>732680135
But why, why is it
>leveling bad
>gear treadmill, good
with people?

>>732680261
shut the fuck up bitch

>>732680261
Don't ask me. That's just always how it has been with MMOs.

>>732680189
based
me and another rogue would live in duskwood and lakeshire when we hit 20-30 for fun

>>732678349
orc warlock

>>732680261
>leveling
>predominantly solo and pretty easy
>gear threadmill
>need to gather 40 ppl together, do mechanics, then win the gear in roll/council/gold

>>732680442
>do mechanics
oh?

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>>732658165
I was a permanent lowbiefag cause I constantly would make new characters and would get bored once leveling and progression got too slow (usually once I hit 30s).
>44 Orc Hunter
>41 NElf Rogue
>24 Undead Warrior
>39 Human Paladin (That fucking Zalgradis video man)
>Mage, Druid, Shaman all in high 10s/20s
So I got a LOT of work in WC, BFD, VC, and RFK/RFD and the other lowbie dungeons

>S: VC, ZF, Cath
>A: SFK, RFD, Arm
>B: Lib, WC,
>C: Gnome, Uldaman
>D: RFK, Stocks
>F: GY

This is the DEFINITIVE lowbie dungeon list.

>>732680442
buddy lighting the lamps in brd is more mechanically involved than watching ony's ass and autoattacking to keep threat low

>>732679990
But leveling is the majority of content in classic lol
>>732680003
t. never actually played the game in endgame in classic
>>732678349
Orc Warrior.
>>732678631
Curses.

>>732680558
FUCK forgot to put BFD in A tier

>>732672131
Nigga that's WRONG
I didn't even have a 60 but I loved getting on my brother's warrior and tanking UBRS and LBRS. The concept of a mini-raid was so fucking COOL.

>scarlet monastery were interesting mini dungeons in a hub you could run a couple of times each before getting boring
>they based literally every single dungeon released from tbc and onward on them and also forced you to grind them dozens of times
What were they thinking?

>>732674061
It's also the first real neutral hub for lowbies. STV both factions had (kinda) their own hubs for questing and vendors and no one ever really stuck around in that neutral zone near the Crossroads.

>>732680558
>not considering scarlet monastery one big dungeon
NGMI

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>work hard
>eat right
>exercise
>still get passed up for tanking mc
wtf...

>>732680643
You never played back then, lol

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>>732657504
Ghostcrawler was always right, WoW was a product of it's time and that time has long since past.

>>732672131
>>Everyone who played vanilla hated brd
If you're going to lie on the internet at least lie about something people might believe.

>>732680886
NO ONE ran GY dude.
Yeah you'd run Lib, Arm, and Cath but no one ever ran GY because of the level range and there was literally negative loot in there until the BC item rework.
And obviously Cath was the best part with that kino boss fight. Arm and Lib are good but their boss-fights aren't as fun.

>>732680930
I actually did misremember, I forgot BRD was it's own separate instance because I never hit 60

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>>732678349
Male night elf deep prot warrior

>>732680970
The social aspect only passed because of chat moderation and players demanding the total ban of players who use wrongspeak instead of using their own ignore/mute functions. If I say "your a fucking nigger" in general chat I should, at MOST, get muted/ignored/blacklisted by other players, not booted from the game entirely.

Give me an MMO that doesn't moderate chat and I'll show you an MMO with a massive player base.

>>732680970
This name rings a bell but I never really followed much about figureheads. I still remember there was that blue on the WoW forums that got removed for crashing out
I found 4chan through the WoW Off-Topic forums back in fucking 08 or 09 or so holy FUCK

>>732681060
>"why yes, i prefer +1% dodge and being able to rest anywhere to extra weapon skill, how could you tell?"

>>732681086
>'08 or '09
lmao newfag

>>732678807
>it's a "DPS warrior in group that's going to fucking ruin literally every pull because they instantly smash charge into heroic strike + thunder clap literally the nanosecond the tank pulls even if they're clearly trying to LoS" episode
>it's every episode

>>732681073
b b but think of all those basedboys that stop playing because someone said a bad word! think of all the minorities that could get offended!

>>732680970
discord kill every mmo community

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>>732678631
Older MMOs apparently had a more diverse system of classes as opposed to the trinity that WoW and others cemented. Marketers were trying to appeal to that type of gaymer.

Also locks are more of a 'debuff' sense with how they apply DoTs and shit instead of direct damage like a mage.

>>732681128
Came for the porn
Now I hate the jews

>>732681143
>it's another "mages and warlocks spam blizzard/rain of fire before the tank secures threat" episode
see i can do it too >:(

>>732658165
brd is best, but only because no group in the history of ever has done a full 3-wing dire maul using the connecting tunnels. full mara is cool too

>>732681172
It's game companies that killed the games.
They just say stuff like internet/guidesp/discord as reason not to try anymore.

>>732662590
People have places to hang out and socialize online that aren't MMOs now. Just being a virtual space isn't enough to draw this. WoW was a big virtual space and that was a novelty with other MMOs of the time. Now it isn't at all. VRchat is the closest to that, and in time, probably some MMO VR game might take off the same way - for the novelty again.

>>732681243
It's really this.
Devs are just not really trying anymore. If they do their studio gets sacked in a fucking buyout lmao
Instead just make gacha and goonerbait.

>>732681201
at least blizzard slow shit
also
>"why would you need SPD ring, you're a tank"
>im a fucking protpala

>>732681180
For me it was, "Wow, this flash animation of Starfire getting tentacle-raped by Brushogun looks totally realistic!" to "I don't need to read the Epstein files because I already know what's in them and what's being censored thanks to the /x/ collective."

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>>732681267
.HACK MMO FUCKING
W H E N

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>>732681313
>at least blizzard slow shit
umm sweaty??

>>732681289
They don't try and they don't know how. Devs in past liked the games. If they made MMO. It was becouse they liked mmo's of old. Blizzards big break was passion project of warhammer and warhammer 40k.
They liked this stuff.
Devs nowdays don't play games themselves and really don't like games.

I'd be willing to pay a fuckin sub if a company wanted to make an new MMO with original IP that's halfway polished. I just want a new game with interesting classes to kill internet dragons with the boys.

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>>732681314
Kek it do be like that
Zoomies will never understand what a completely wild fucking ride early 00s internet was. So many different sites, forums, shrines, and communities of degenerates, nerds, schizos, and normalfags all talking about whatever the fuck wont make the admin hit them with the B& hammer.

Now as soon as you say something double plus notgood the AI hits you with locks and seizures.

>>732681380
yes, and?
are you trying to say that there are mages out here who want to grind dungeons without imp blizz?

>>732681180
>Older MMOs apparently had a more diverse system of classes
A lot of these classes had no reason to exist other than to force you to bring that class to be allowed to play the game and in extreme cases their role could be botted, like the Bard in RO that removes after cast delay

>>732681313
no mana sorry

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>>732681492
Oh, hello, other me. I hope your iteration in this hellhole is going better than mine, genuinely.

>>732681595
those 3 talent points can be better spent on my own parse, who cares if the tank dies

>>732681492
>So many different sites, forums, shrines, and communities of degenerates, nerds, schizos, and normalfags all talking about whatever the fuck wont make the admin hit them with the B& hammer.
And yet everyone went to the same sites, every kid knew about joecartoon, newsground and all the same sites when they used altavista and search for "free games!"

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>>732681608
>Also a BASED Paladin enjoyer
Shit anon we might be the same person. Did you also get obsessive over Paladin DPS after watching that Zalgradis PVP video?

>>732681751
>zomg
when was the last time you saw anyone using "omg" or "zomg"

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>>732681751
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOXrGmulbMk

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>>732681805
omg maybe from girts but zomg yeah not since at the most 2007.
Our whimsy was taken from us....

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>>732658165

>>732681201
If only. The ones I'm getting are spamming hellfire and arcane explosion and getting kwabbed by melee mobs

>>732677634
me too

>LF2M TANK AND HEAL RAMPS
>"inv"
>2 druids and pala

>>732664204
This. People who treat this as an adventure are braindead. Adventures aren't about shutting your brain off while grinding or listening to podcasts / watching videos so you don't get bored out of your mind autowalking to the next objective. WoW is a really shitty adventure game.

>>732658165
deadmines was kino,
scarlet monastery was cool as shit, once you knew how to get there, really felt like you were invading the undead lands to put a stop to something worse than the undead patrols you dodged to get there, and passing by the undercity was real hype too.
gnomeregan was alright, but it always sucked getting 4 people who wanted to just rush the bosses, and one asshole who need to do the trogg bits.
scholomance was cool too.

'mechanics' beyond deciding which adds to CC, or focus down, or dodging AOE effects were an addition i disliked, needing one player to mind control a felhound was a nightmare, because somehow, every time, the guy who got selected was retarded.
and now you have boss fights where you're playing DDR and waiting for story events to kill the boss for you, its not the same.
give me a boss that calls adds at 50% any day.

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>>732681967
>"lf1m need tank death grips and helm of the executioner reserved"

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>>732681859
>I am thou
>Thou art I

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>>732682102
2spooky4me

If you're a 32 huwite male then my dad (and your dad) need to apologize for the "you're my favorite son that I know about" joke.

>>732674335
when diremaul became popular as a higher level dungeon.
i blame horde players making alliance alts when they realized pvp wasn't as fun as raiding.

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>>732658165
1. Sunken Temple
2. Scholomance
3. Black Rock Depths
4. Wailing Caverns
5. Shadowfang Keep

The vanilla dungeons were indeed peak.

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>>732682231
Kek well I'm 31 and my Dad has sadly passed on (he was hella based though, was the one that got me into PC gaymen and redpills) but I'm sure they would've been bros.

Paladins.