Caananites are barely christian, people like him because of the way he speaks not because of his religious nature. Like an old sea captain. He "believes" in God but after that theres barely any real meat to his faith in relation to his actions.

>>733723431
he gives you a copy of a book of moron nigga

>>733723510
book of mormon*
unintentional typo. i love the lds church

>>733723510
Mormons are not Christian tho

>>733723431
OP here, I always forget he is a mormon. I am retarded, kek

>>733723574
>entire faith centered around jesus
>not christian
i know your type. im not gonna argue with u fags anymore.

>>733722305
>i did terrible acts
>but now i praise jesus, so im the good guy :)
>help me to do a genocide or i let you die here
>im a good christian :)
is the most reatarded character ever

>>733722305
>be christian
>decide to follow the literal golden calf
Grim
How can you have a manual for life and still fuck up this badly despite all the signs being right there

>>733723714
Taken as a flawed character he's great, especially if you max out speech and give him redemption in his ending.

>>733722305
I won’t talk religion with Christian nationalists. They don’t know Christ.

>>733723957
Not everyone in the thread is an evangelical. But I somewhat agree with the sentiment of not casting pearls before swine.

>>733723431
>>733723574
Your relationship with God concerns only you and the Lord.
Some old guy in Rome claim you're not "Christian" because you dont do the exact same rites as him on the exact same date is the opposite of what Jesus preaches.
And before you (You) me, I was raised a Catholic in a Catholic country, but Mormons, Potestants, Orthodox etc are all Christians like me simply because they follow Chirst.
Graham was all about redemption and forgiveness, other things Jesus preaches. And he learned the Forgiveness part thanks to the Courier if you succeed the speech check in the end.

>>733723957
>>733724118
This is why no one likes you. Get off your high horse, this isn't what the Bible teaches us

>>733724229
The phrase casting pearls before swine literally comes from the bible. It means not to share wisdoms and insights with those that will mock or misuse it.

I would say a thread on 4chan perfectly defines such an environment.

>>733724376
And pride comes before the fall

>>733722305
>3 lines of dialogue in a dlc with no story and 2 side quest-tier missions
>retarded /v/ faggots idolize this "character" because they worship surface level visuals only

>>733723867
It's a shame that Daniel ended up as such a one-note wet blanket of a character, Joshua Graham absolutely dominates the fight or flight "conflict" so completely that I'd actually forgotten Daniel's name and had to go look it up.

>>733724435
If you think I'm being proud, I will reflect on it.

The trouble at the source of these comments has to do with the nationalism/evangelical angle, though, which has been hijacked for political ends in the west and often manifests itself in places like this.

>>733723714
>I should have died, but God saw fit to let me live
>I have found God after foolishly abandoning Him, yet He still loves me
>I will now come home to preach His love again
>*comes home to find it destroyed*
>*anger won over*
>I will RIGHTEOUSLY MURDER these sinners and protect the innocents in the Lord's name! The sinners need to meet divine judgement, but we can't expect God to do all the work.
>*Outsider made him realise the errors of his way*
>I have made my anger as God's own. I was wrong. The lesson I needed to learn was not the Ancient Testament divine wrath, I am not God, but Jesus' forgiveness.
>I let my enemy live and my anger die out. Finally I found peace for myself and those around me
Its absolute redemption kino. Jesus would be proud.

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>>733722305
No.

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>>733723510

>>733724714
You've encapsulated what I love about this particular DLC so much, and its such a rarity in gaming media.

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any priest with a gun or any sort of combat priest is cool in my book, which he falls under sort of. and the other guy was just retarded. eye for an eye as the bible says, its not all hippe new age testament shit. they want to kill and rape us? kill them instead. doesnt translate to you becoming a savage, despite the game almost treating it like that.

>>733723632
They don't believe in the Holy Trinity. They also believe you become a god of your own planet of you're faithful enough. They're blasphemous and insane. Catholicism is the only true version of Christianity, as they're the ones who actually defied Jesus.

>>733724453
I don't know a single man, religious or otherwise, who thinks that running away from the people who slaughtered your family instead of defending yourself and your your home is a good call. I was actually surprised, when I was doing that ending for a cheevo, that Joshua accepts it without questions, since he has his priorities set straight - his tribe before his own interest. Even in Daniel's route he gained respect in my eyes.

>>733724578
>which has been hijacked for political ends in the west
It's overwhelmingly an American problem, it does happen in Europe as well but religious groups have a tiny fraction of the influence that they have in the US and if you tried to actively pander to that kind of narrative you'd lose way more votes than you'd gain.

>>733723632
Understandable conceding early. They're faith is centred around the interpretation of the false prophet Joseph Smith.

>>733723714
>>i did terrible acts
>>but now i praise jesus, so im the good guy :)
Have you heard of this little known preacher called Paul the Apostle?

>>733724865
>They also believe you become a god of your own planet of you're faithful enough.
that sounds pretty cool, where do I sign up?

He turned reddit cringe atheists into reddit cringe christians, so I'd say he's a solid 7/10 character in terms of writing

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I don't get why they call him Mormon outside of being from Utah. He mentions absolutely nothing about Mormonism, he just repeats Old Testament phrases, lingo and rhetoric to (you) and only you during the DLC's main story. He doesn't even try to convert you or lecture you or denounce the fact that you're a non-believer. His whole gimmick reminds me more of Denzel Washington's character from Book of Eli and yeah I'm aware both this game and that movie released in the same year.

>>733724820
Fight back, dont run away. But dont get consumed by anger and hate. Joshua's sin was realising all this time he was driven by anger, masquerading as a need to protect.
He was a killer thinking he was a shepherd. Only by sparing the enemy did he not only find peace, but break the cycle of violence.
Then God did punish the evil tribal leader and bless the good tribes. All Joshua had to do was have faith God would do the judgement part, as long as he does his protector shepherd role to his people.

>>733723714
The more a man's been forgiven, the more he wanta to forgive
Luke 7:41-43

>>733724453
>>733724883
What's left unexplored is the fact that both Daniel and Graham have failed to truly spread their faith to the tribals. If anything maybe the Courier helps depending on the ending, because Zion Valley is the crucible for all of them, but even so there's dialogue that shows the tribals actually just worship the ancestor spirit they found in the caves instead, no matter what Daniel tells them.

The whole thing really is just this >>733724714 at best, a story where you can redeem or damn Graham as he struggles with the ghosts of his past. If anything Daniel is a poorer teacher too, as is shown when the Courier discovers he lied to some of his people, though I admit I remember that detail less clearly so maybe I'm wrong.

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>>733724865
>the church that believes a man voted for by other men is somehow Christ's chosen representative on Earth and therefore gets to live in a giant gilded opulent palace because reasons is the only true version of Christianity
Martin Luther was right about everything.

>>733724714
>*Outsider made him realise the errors of his way*
It wasn't anything Joshua didn't already know himself, but he always had issues with godly obedience (aka letting things unravel on their own, hence "we can't expect God to do all the work"). He is not a humble man, a very prideful one, in fact, and I'd say the Courier teaches him humility. It was probably the reason why he and Edward got along - the missionary work is about patience, and trust in God, and Joshua had none, being a young man who has faced that harsh reality of the wastes, and the Legion gave him that power of instant Change. He wanted to *become* God, it's not an easy idea to get rid of.

>>733722305
He's Mormon, which makes him Jewish if anything since Mormons

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>>733722305

>>733725063
Check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=n3BqLZ8UoZk

>>733725165
There are tons of Mormon references once you realize Mormons see themselves as Jews
Especially Canaan

>>733725296
>have failed to truly spread their faith to the tribals
As I understand it, Joshua doesn't even try to convert the Dead Horses. Follows-Chalk speaks of God, but it's mostly "Joshua's God". It's not like with the Sorrows who actually read the Scripture, pray and worship Randall Clark, if anything, the Horses worship Joshua himself, even thought he doesn't like it.

>>733725627
I sometimes wonder if his name was chosen on purpose for that reason.

>>733724865
>blasphemous and insane
catholics for Mary and saints cult

>>733725732
What do you mean?

>>733725792
I mean that I wonder if Sawyer was trying to make an additional layer of commentary by naming Graham after Jesus.

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>>733722305
i'm tired of pathetic tradlarpers making a warped out christianity that fits their fringe, extremist sociopolitical views their whole personality. they think themselves based and redpilled, but they're nothing but sheep to be herded and exploited by some dashing televangelist with fake teeth and glittering tuxedo, worshipping the petrodollar masked as jesus christ in giant orwellian megachurches. it baffles me how a nation so advanced and so invested in scientific and technological progress still holds a large chunk of its population having the same mindset of the insane puritan witchhunters that came with the mayflower.

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>>733722305

>>733723714
It's a core tenet of Christianity, that if you truly repent you can achieve Salvation no matter the deeds you did.

>>733723632
Mormons do not believe in the trinity, they're polytheistic heretics no matter how you spin it, even ignoring their belief that you can become a lesser god.

>>733725478
>can’t watch pronography
>can’t masturbate
>have to wear magic underwear
damn… it’s over for me…

>>733726618
I dont remember the Trinity being thaught in the Bible.

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>>733724669
My man

>>733726727
You get to have weird "sex"... sort of
Google "soaking"

>>733725790
Catholics don't pray to Mary and the saints, we ASK them to pray on our behalf while we pray to God directly, since unlike the Lord they are not all knowing or omnipotent, but they have His favor.

>>733727167
God isn't blind or deaf though, you can just pray to Him. The only mention of anyone else could be Jesus and only in the form of praying in the name of rather than directly to. Praying to any mortal is technically redirecting your request to someone who falls short by virtue of being a mortal and a sinner, and if you're told that these mortals are somehow perfect that is where the blasphemy is.

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>>733725912
I think Joshua's character is closer to Yehoshua from the Book of Joshua. Ironic, but he led the destruction of Jericho, which is the name of New Canaan in Van Buren, and conquest of Canaan. Fun fact, the yucca tree is also named Joshua tree because of the similarities with his outstretched hand pointed at Canaan in the Bible.

>>733727167
>Catholics don't pray to Mary and the saints, we ASK them to pray on our behalf
While it SHOULD be this way nobody really follows it. People are literally praying to the saints.

>>733726727
Just get a wife breh

>>733726776
The first commandment says it in the plainest way possible "you shall have no other gods besides me" and Jesus proclaimed himself Lord, therefore Jesus cannot not be a seperate God, but rather an aspect of the one true God given flesh. Litterally millenia of study and consensus have settled on the trinity being the core tenet of Christianity. If you don't believe in the trinity, then you are a polytheist heathen, not a Christian.

>>733727449
Well that's why I wonder what Sawyer meant by it, it could be nothing. Like is Daniel named that because its just a common religious name or was it meant to be a reference to the prophet in a larger way to the story? By making Honest Hearts so religious the door ends up being open to this kind of exploration.

The other post mentioned that Graham didn't want to be worshipped directly and that could be interpreted like not wanting to be worshipped, but rather that worship should be for the One that sent him, to draw a parallel. Likewise, there are parallels in Graham's backstory, he is burned alive and dumped in a river, only to survive--to the legion this looks like he came back from the dead and Caesar forbids his men from talking about it.

>>733722305
>the best
you mean the only, begone

Imagine you've been arrested.
Some of your closest friends betrayed you and act like they never knew you.
Despite doing nothing evil, you are condemned to be tortured to death.
Your torturers publicly scourge you as the crowd jeer at you and spit on you.
Everyone but a select few are reveling in your misery, your suffering, as you slowly die.
Death comes, all goes dark.

Then you see a light. You head towards it and feel the greatest warmth and comfort you've ever felt.
You realize the meaning of life, and you realize the truth of afterlife.
You can feel God welcoming you with an open embrace.

...but you stop and look back.
>"I need to tell them this. I need to let them know the truth."
And so you turn away from Paradise, to come back and visit those who betrayed you and let you be brutally killed and humiliated.
Because they needed to know. They needed to be able to follow you. You had to give them that chance.

That's why Christ is King.
That's why Christ is the Savior.
That's why Christ's love is eternal and immaterial.

If you don't understand, you will one day.
The Truth can never be hidden once it has been revealed.

>>733727620
>Jesus is God
Yup. We agree there. I dont agree you being smart enough to know what a trinity is if we agree that Jesus is God. Because I see a duology.

christianity is a kike scheme

>>733728039
When the Romans said that Jesus should be pardoned as was tradition to pardon one man, the Jews said back
>"Give us Barabbas! Not Jesus, but Barabbas!"
Barabbas was just a common criminal and politica agitator, and chose him over Christ.

>>733727892
>Death comes, all goes dark
>bu bub but actually you're coming back alive to SPREAD THE WORD!!
Shit fanfic, people die when they are killed moron.

>>733727696
Good points, I agree. Knowing Sawyer, it's probably everything and a bit on top. He said that Joshua was mostly based on various preachers from both books and movies, thought.
>Likewise, there are parallels in Graham's backstory, he is burned alive and dumped in a river, only to survive--to the legion this looks like he came back from the dead and Caesar forbids his men from talking about it.
If even /v/ worships him, no wonder the people who were quite literally raised and trained by him could respect him more than Caesar. It's a huge issue actually, shit like this often ended in civil wars even in Ancient Rome itself. And in the end, it all comes down to the living fish in the Virgin River, aka Ichthys, if we are to talk about symbols and references.

>>733724865
All Christians and all people who believe in a magic mega wizard are insane.

>this is god
>no this isn't god reeee
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Bible teach that we are all parts of the same divine body?

>>733728164
He didn't come back to life, he just came back.
His soul pierced through the world of matter and told us directly what he experienced.

In this act, he saved everyone from being trapped on Earth or in Hell.

>>733728184
I don't recall references to Ichthys in Honest Hearts, but elaborate if you'd like.

>>733728259
>he
You specified me. I won't come back to life.
If you're referring to Jesus he was literally told to let it happen.
Please read your own fucking book for fuck sake.

>>733728248
Yes, but humans are too dumb to not fall into tribalism

>>733723714
Why should someone who earnestly repents not be forgiven?

>>733728248
Yes, people put a limit on God by denying the trinity.
His ability to be one and three at the same time is not something we can do, and therefore the smallminded deny it.

>>733728316
>Imagine you...
means this hasn't happened to you. That you have to put yourself in another's place.

I'm sorry you struggle with English.

>>733726035
>it baffles me how a nation so advanced and so invested in scientific and technological progress still holds a large chunk of its population having the same mindset of the insane puritan witchhunters that came with the mayflower.

Is it really so baffling that people would want to lose themselves in wishful thinking and a promise of something better when they live in a hellish world where everything is run by the most evil people on Earth who almost invariably not only get away with their atrocities, but will never be brought to justice?

The USA is literally run by Criminals and there is nothing the general population can do about it. Some of the biggest names in the USA and beyond were caught partaking illegal Human trafficking and the government just said "Oh well" because too many powerful, wealthy and influential people were partaking in those crimes.

>>733728348
>earnestly repents
>ends up creating another Legion but with Christians this time if you let him do what he wants

Lmao at christ cucks.

>heckin science!
>primordial black holes
>dark matter
>nothingness collapsed and exploded into everything
FACT

>crazy witchdoctors!!!
>"maybe there is another dimension of soul and spirit where God resides?"
UTTER INSANITY

>>733728297
Quite simple. Zion is the only place where you can see untouched by radiation living fish in possibly the entirety of the known world (at least the one presented in FNV), since the oceans/shores are all tainted, and Jesus is strongly associated with fish and water for multiple reasons. But it's far-fetched, I know.

>>733724173
Mormons are not Christian, literally

>>733727945
Jesus alone is not God
The Trinity is God. It's you who fundamentally does not understand Christianity.

>>733728689
Literally, they are

>>733727449
Wow that's super cool. Thanks anon, I love learning stuff like this.

>>733728364
You did not mention Jesus.
Jesus knew death would come.
Why would God welcome Jesus despite knowing Jesus' work was not done? Despite them both knowing the plan?
You are an inept storyteller. You wrote fanfiction and it sucks.
Stupid libtard.

>>733728589
being proud of your ignorance doesn't make you neither strong nor right, you just look like a buffoon.

>>733728589
You activated my autism tingling.
The reason I don't find discussions about beginning of the Universe interesting is that it comes down to either
>there was nothing and then there was something
or
>there always has been something
and the answer to that question has no bearing on my life and probably on life of any person what-so-ever. So pick your poison.

>>733728760
That's like saying that Rastafarians are Christians. You can't make up your own headcanon and claim it as fact

>>733727892
>Despite doing nothing evil
Jesus was a blasphemer

>>733728479
If his repentance was not earnest then it will not be accepted by God. So what's your issue?

>>733728894
How come?

>>733728640
When I replay that DLC I'll try to pay attention to that because I don't remember the presence of fish.

>>733728760
Mormons are about as Christian as Muslims, lmao. They follow false prophets, they're unwitting followers of Satan.

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The real question is, do you think New Canaanites draw/wear/decorate places with crosses? I know that mormons don't like it since it represents Jesus' death, not his rebirth, but the Scripture in NV has a cross on its cover

Why are there no video games about Mohammed?

>>733728718
And you blindly follow some dude telling you what the Trinity is without understanding what it is, despite it never being mentioned in the Bible.
I'm done giving you (You), you cant say anything besides
>You're not a Christian, because worshipping Jesus and following the Bible is not enough, you need to follow this thing added much later for no reason

>>733728151
and jesus wasn't?

>>733728845
>Why would God welcome Jesus despite knowing Jesus' work was not done? Despite them both knowing the plan?
Jesus is part man, do not forget that.

He could've run away or tried a number of things to avoid his fate and betray God. Everyone has free will.
Peter chose to betray Jesus despite Jesus telling him to his face "you will deny me three times" and Peter vehemently saying he would never.

Prophecy and choice, fate and free thought.
They aren't as separate as you think.
A good story always leads to the proper ending.

The thread was better before the shitposting kicked up.

>>733729024
They don't worship Smith, they worship Christ

>>733729090
Barrabas was a bandit and killer. Kikes just hated christ, even then.

>>733729116
some people are truly like this. imagine talking to them irl.

>>733728760
Mormons literally do not believe in Trinity.
Christianity is defined by Nicene creed, every Christian denomination follows it.
They are as Christian as Muslims.

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You can end the thread now

>>733729140
jesus is the single greatest threat to stability in the history of the roman empire. i would've chosen a common murderer over the man who consigned the fate of western civilization to millennia of barbarism.

>>733728961
He criticized religious authorities and claimed to have divine blood

>>733729107
What the fuck are you babbling about?
Stop writing fanfiction of the bible this instant.

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>>733729239
Kikes hated Rome, so what's your point? Oh, you're changing the topic? How unusual!

>>733729239
Jesus was a random guy with a few followers that the rabbis despised. He wasn't important until he came back and delivered his final sermon to his disciples.

>>733729059
I feel the devs wanted to avoid more symbolism than they already included because it ends up being a minefield for the writing team.

I played the Long 15 mod recently and there was a mormon trader NPC in it and I remember feeling that the character felt incredibly out of place in every way through just the dialogue. I felt this more for this NPC than every other poorly written or voiced NPC in the whole mod.

>>733729080
I dunno what crazy lies your mormon church is peddling, but Paul outlined the trinity before there was a word for it. It's a foundational doctrine.

It got me thinking, why did Caesar pick Mars, of all deities, but not OT God? There are many traces of Graham's influence in the Legion's doctrine, but I find it odd that he didn't decide to bring that to the table, too

>>733728348
How many times can someone earnestly repent before it's considered insincere?

>>733729269
The same Bible that includes that completely ahistorical and fantasy Exodus, basing everything inside on the people who allegedly made this journey?

You need to look only at texts concerning Christ. Everything else is Jewish lies.
And look at what has been officially rejected from the canonical Bible to see the truth.

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>>733722305
Step aside, junior.

>>733729440
God knows whether or not it's sincere. So what's the issue?

>>733729348
Both Long 15 and Dry Wells are awful and extremely overrated. I have no idea why people keep shilling them for free

>>733729261
>criticized religious authorities
that's blasphemy?
>claimed to have divine blood
He spoke truth

>>733729131
That's what the muslims say about Muhammad. Smith was a cult leader.

>>733729428
I feel maybe that'd fall into the cut content part of the game. There was meant to be stuff with the sisterhood for instance and I suspect it would've been explored there.

If I wanted to speculate though I'd say its because Caesar wasn't christian, he was an opportunist and an educated one, and a pagan war deity hits notes for primitive tribals who only believe in might makes right a lot more efficiently on the short term if his goals resolve around war, and it also smooths things over with all the rest of his larping in case one of his legion soldiers ever reads a history book.

>>733729440
How many times would loving parents allow you to borrow money from them in order to feed you at your worst?

>>733729440
Why do you think that matters? Because you think they might only be pretending to repent for the sake of forgiveness?
We're not the one judging the sincerity. It's they're faking it, they haven't repented and they've accomplished nothing.

>>733729440
-How many times should I forgive my brother? Do I have to do this even seven times?
-Do it seventy seven.

>>733729604
>in case one of his legion soldiers ever reads a history book.
Then they'd learn that Christianity won in the end and Mars kinda sucks

>>733729536
It still serves as a good example of what not to do. There's a lot of that in Long 15, though this thread has jumped the shark a while back so I'm not inclined to dig into the other examples here.

In being useful this way we can see exactly why making such an NPC without any care is a bad thing. Its an "off note".

>>733729736
Maybe, or maybe Caesar just hoped to get to the NCR territory and complete his plans before anything started to unwind.

Are there any games that depict Mohammad's Al-Zutt rape incident?

>>733729428
Ywhw isn’t a very good war like deity for your war like society you’re trying to create

Mormons aren't Christians

>>733722305
>mormon
>christian

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>>733722305
Wrong.

>>733723510
>book of moron
No, you had it right. But that title could be used for all religious books anyway.

>>733726428
Repentance alone just spares you from eternal damnation. Forgiveness requires acts, so the people who repent on their deathbeds after a lifetime of sin go to purgatory before they're worthy of entering heaven. It's pretty much Hell, but not forever.

>>733729923
Whoa there, let's not turn up the heat to 11 on this thread. Keep it chill.

>>733729531
Then may God show him mercy, because I shall not

>>733730181
[speech 100] Calm down Joshua

>>733729550
He opposed the common religious beliefs of his time and place. I can't think of a faith that wouldn't call him evil

>>733729938
Idk bro, Nipton getting Sodom treatment makes one wonder

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Today, nine commandments will have to do

>>733730459
>he was a blasphemer
>he opposed the common religious beliefs
I accept your concession

>>733722305
He's righteous enough thats for sure. You could put a line up of the most brutal Teutonic crusader knights together and toss him in there and he'd fit right in as their bishop or deacon. They'd probably have to rein him in a little to keep the vatican's eyes off them.

>>733730718
It's fair to believe Christianity is the one true faith but to act like it wasn't a radical idea back then is ignorant