Were hm’s actually good? Using them felt like a proper adventure with your team, not a guided tour like the ride pokemon of 7th gen or the corviknight taxi of 8th. It was you and your team working together, making it feel more special and forming a connection to your pokemon. Relying on outside help doesn’t feel as special. The only hm replacement that got it right was SV, since the ride dragon is technically your pokemon.
Making a Pokemon boring to use in battle by having to force shitty moves doesn't do the best at forming a connection either
HMs should work like they do in good romhacks: if someone in your party is capable of learning the move and you have the HM, you can use it in the overworld whether you teach them a battle move or not.
>>55775178I really enjoy crossover art like OPrel
>game freak takes away the only redeeming thing about tropiusHollywood can suck a dick.
>>55775178HMs are kind of alright in small numbers. It helps when the moves are passable in their own right.Gen 1 didn't let you forget them, but Surf and Strength were some of the best moves within their type, while Flash was useless garbage(and thankfully only needed in one place, so you could just throw it on a temporary mon- which doesn't track with the "your team's adventure"). Fly was alright too(pretty much the second best Flying-type move).Cut was something of a missed opportunity thanks to being so weak. It could have been a Bug-type move since it cut grass and trees(bug would make it super-effective).
>>55775178HMs should work like they do in Pixelmon or in Pokémon Ranger. Your team has inherent abilities separate from moves so you can ride/fly/swim/dive depending on who you have on your team.
>>55775473Fly was good with poison. Surf is one of the best water-type moves. Strength is good for when you couldn't get Body Slam. Teaching a Pokemon Cut or especially Flash before the move deleter ruined it.
bit of a controversial opinion but HMs were good exactly as implemented>they're shitty moves!yes, you're making a decision between a powerful attack or a subpar one that lets you traverse the world. in fact i think surf should've been shittier to keep in line with this philosophy.>but i hate having to catch specific pokemon to use them!catching different pokemon is the point of the game and this is a good way to get the player to do it. it also gets the player thinking about pokemon's features and what moves they might be able to learn.>well i just stick them all on an HM slavegood, knowledgeable players are rewarded with the chance to dump all the dead weight HM moves onto one mon, freeing up space for better moves on the ones they use for battling.the only issue with HMs is that some games had way too many of them. they should've gone all-in on optional, but beneficial, field moves and effects. it forms a greater connection between your team and your environment.
>>55775178They were shit. You have to limit too much in a game about player expression and making your own adventure. Like if I don't want any surfers or I want to play as a certain type specialist I'm fucked because of a single move. Ride Pokemon are a great system
>>55775297Pecharunt should be Tael, instead of Link.
>>55775178I think they were an alright way of structuring progression in the overworld and for encouraging backtracking. the interaction of your Pokemon with the environment was immersive too. they may have gone overboard with them at points and they feel archaic now but I actually don't think they're deserving of all the hate. people act like they are the worst game mechanic ever conceived and I just don't agree with that. they don't bother me when I replay old games, it's just one of the quirks of that era. I think they could have been improved on instead of being cut entirely, like they could be inherent abilities that certain Pokemon have, and maybe not making them mandatory to progress but just as a way to hide secrets and reward you for exploring with different Pokemon in the overworld. but I'm sure people would still find a way to complain about that.
I prefer the idea of traversing the environment with your own team to shit like Ride Pokemon or wild Bidoofs coming to help you. But in practice, HMs were never good. It was annoying always having to build my team around a bird and a fish, almost all the HMs besides Fly and Surf were glorified keys for different flavors of locked doors, and everyone just ended up carrying around an HM slave they didn't give a shit about to carry the shit moves. The Raidons were actually a nice compromise, but it'd be cheap if they just copied the idea for every game going forward. I'm really not sure what the best solution is.
>>55775178HMs were fine before gen 4. The failure of Sinnoh made it clear that HM bloat was inevitable and the idea had to be rethought. Ultimately, as far as the mainline games go, gen 9 has had the best workaround so far, in that progress is still gated, and the HM functions are still fulfilled by "your" Pokemon, who you get to bond with before you can use it for battle via story events.>b-b-but I'm a special snowflake and don't want to have legendaries-Yeah yeah yeah, tell it to the OC trainer thread.
>>55775324I never cared about or used Tropius even when she was a good HM whore.
You know what was cool? In Legends Arceus, when I realized you could throw any of your Pokemon at one of the rocks blocking pathways, and they would smash it. No extra move needed, no tutorial telling you to do it, it just worked. Sure, it reeked of cut content (I assume there was supposed to be a Ride Pokemon that specialized in Rock Smash, but the devs figured it would be obsolete quick and removed it), but it still felt satisfying to do. More of that, please. Let me throw my Pokemon up on a ledge so it can throw down a rope or something. Put holes in cave walls that I can send a small Pokemon through to chase out mons that are hiding in them. Put pressure plates on the ground for heavy Pokemon to stand on to hold a door open. You don't need HMs to make it feel like you're adventuring with your companions.
>>55775178I think if HM's were to make a return, they should only required to be in your reserve move list. That way you still need a pokemon that can learn the move without needing to forfeit a move slot.
>>55775178they're good in the easy mainline games. They are fucking horrible in difficult hacks where you actually need all 4 moves to be good
>>55778222Checking an underrated and CORRECT post
>>55775178>Were hm’s actually good?no> Using them felt like a proper adventure with your teamneeding to have a lv2 bidoof and starly on my team at all times doesn’t make the game feel any more like a proper adventure than it does now> It was you and your team working together, making it feel more special and forming a connection to your pokemonI don’t feel any connection having to leave shitmons on my team just to click A in front of tiles
>>55779446>SinnohThere's your problem Anon. That region expects way too many HMs of you. Others aren't nearly as bad, and Unova makes a grand majority of them straight up optional.
>>55779458Literally every game past gen 1 expects too many HMs from me. The second they added more than one water HM and more than one “click A in front of thing to remove it” HM they fucked it up.
>>55775178They were shit but using your Pokemon to help you during your adventure should have been expanded upon. Simply having a water type should be enough to Surf for example.
Anon and his HMs
>>55775235This was the way to go. Field moves being used by your team is more fun, but if they aren't going to be good moves than making them something your pokemon can just do is the best solution.
Have a bump, on the house
>>55775235>HMs should work by not fixing the problem at all
>>55775178HMs were bad because they were overtly bad moves, people never complained about fly or surf because those moves were just ok enough, all they needed to do was either power boost them or add a good gimmick. Imagine if rock smash was 75 power or instead always lowered defense, I'd be less mad about using it but still wary of who I put it onAnd that's what hms should be, ok enough to use but not the best thing around
>>55781670>HMs were bad because they were overtly bad moves,no, they were bad because I need to arbitrarily put a starly on my team for 2 seconds just to fast travel and then waste time putting it back into the PC to use my actual party.
>>55781670Why is Rock Smash so low-powered, anyway? It just doesn't make sense.
>>55783424it's typically an early game HM. they were attempting to balance it. the problem is it becomes dead weight too quickly. same with cut.
>>55783454By the time you get Rock Smash, most other moves have a power of 60. It's ridiculous.
>>55775178yeah I wish instead of removing them entirely they kept them and had hm slots on Pokémon that could only be used outside of battle I think the only reason they didn't do this is they're too lazy to add him animations for all pokemon
