its funny to me that they decided to remove all forms of subtlety and chances to question whether or not pokemon battling was immoral by having team plasma doing the equivalent of kicking puppies. Talk about "genius" pokemon writing.>"we want you to question whether pokemon battling is moral or not">"B-But NOOO dont you dare actually to consider their perspective!!! T-They kick pokemons so t-they're wrong...! STOP AGREEING WITH THEM WAAAHH"
>>56366100To actually*
>>56366100But /vp/ told me Gen 5 had a good story
>>56366100Damn that nigga just kicked that fat lil pink bitch.
>>56366100T. Ryoku
>>56366100Why didn't it shrink?
>>56366100The message of BW is to not ask questions and consume product. Masuda must have seen one of those pokemon = slavery memes and decided to shut it down, not analyze the idea, but completely and utterly reject it. So he made a game with a strawman as the antagonist and the only takeaway is that they lied and are therefore wrong, please don't listen to them, N is brainwashed so please reject everything he says. It is always black and white. Do not let Unovafaggots trick you into thinking there is some deep message here. Masuda is a soulless corporate shill.
>>56366100>pokemon game has pokemon level storywoah
yawnfag thread
>>56366100the whole point is that they were hypocritical. gamefreak wrote team plasma, if they thought their motives were too strong to defend, they could have just...given them different motives. the point is that they present as one thing, but act differently under the mask. and this paves the way for some of team plasma being redeemed in bw2. holy shit, I don't even like gen 5's story but some of you are severely lacking in media comprehension.
>>56366297They "redeemed" themselves in bw2 by completely dropping their original beliefs and turning into a generic abused pokemon rehabilitation center.
>>56366154Answer this, nipfags.
>>56366297The point of keeping the current motives as they are was because they wanted to shut down the "pokemon = slavery lol" meme, they built up some strawmen to discredit people who question the ethics of pokemon battling and end up telling everybody that pokemon battling is ok and to not ask questions. If they truly wanted to make a thoughtful story, they could've tried to explore the nuances n shit about pokemon battling instead of building strawmen and making the members abuse pokemons to try to discredit one side of the argument.You say we lack media comprehension, but truthfully, that's bullshit, in what world is questioning the ethics of pokemon battling and wondering if team plasma wasnt wrong as the game wanted us to believe instead of blindly believing "tEaM plASmA is EVUuL N' wROONG cus They abuSe pokeymans!!" considered "lacking media comprehension"? Isnt analyzing the media and seeing different perspectives of a piece of media considered media literacy?
>>56366297The game tries to lure you in with the premise of examining the morality of being a Pokémon Trainer, and then the game shits the bed by strawmanning one side. People here have already said it. It's not even just about being a Trainer, Team Plasma targets people who live with Pokémon. Whenever Ghetsis speaks, it plays ominous music. All music associated with Team Plasma is bad. The only character who is isn't an asshole is N, but then they reveal that it's only because he was gaslit his entire life and was realizing he was wrong pretty quickly after meeting you. If the point is they're hypocrites, then that means they never made a valid point to begin with, which is exactly what Game Freak and TPC want you to believe. The premise is fake, it's like a church pastor writing a book that promises to examine the ideals and flaws of Christianity and its influence on society, only for it to write everyone who isn't Christian as a comical cartoon villain while affirming Christianity as perfect. Meanwhile, the one agnostic becones more Christian at the end.It's only because Pokémon did a story-focused approach like this compared to its normal story-second approach that kids thought it was deep and well-written. At least B2W2 acknowledges that there are Pokémon that have been abused by Trainers.
>>56366154Because the shrinking thing is nupokemon faggotry, gamefreak is not very consistent
>>56366508The shrinking thing was written in a lorebook made by Game Freak in 1996. Games have said it before in the Japanese versions (Lucian says it in Platinum at Canalave Library post-game), but the localizations always changed the line because they assumed that the anime's take on the franchise. PLA was just the first time they actually translated the line rather than rewrote it.
>>56366361The anon you-re replying to literally said SOME.You just proved him correct.>>56366423> Isnt analyzing the media and seeing different perspectives of a piece of media considered media literacy?No, just being able to understand the media is enough. Making fanfiction about what it should be is unrelated.>>56366501You literally haven't proved your point, just explained what's in the game.
>>56366683>changed the line because they assumed that the anime's take on the franchiseYou're giving a lot of credit to TPC's care for the lore.In reality they just didn't think each instance was a connected thing that was discussing the same thing. I mean they shit the bed with clearly connected things already.
>>56366297>the whole point is that they’re shityes we know
>>56366105It's not bad, certainly better than everything that came before and majority of what came after.
>>56366721This thread proves otherwise.
>>56366100>ummm TPCI should've shit on their whole franchise and it's messages by outright confirming that a fucking criminal team organization is actually right and validate every pearl clutching hippy and out-of-touch boomer about Pokemon being a evil slavery series, because it would've been LE DEEPNo. Team Plasma was a parody of PETA for a reason and that's because PETA is a hypocritical shitstain organization irl. Many teams before it was a parody of irl shitty organizations like mafias and cults. Simple as that. Stop overthinking a kids game.
>>56366713Some of them renounced their original beliefs, the rest continue to be ridiculous crazy liars about it. How does that prove him correct?
>>56366818>How does that prove him correct?Because you didn't read his post and now are changing your stance.
>>56366100Peta IRL does the same thing, why are you surprised anon?
>>56366782>Team Plasma was a parody of PETA>Stop overthinking a kids game.
>>56366832yes
>>56366741no one in the thread has proved they aren’t shit
>>56366782Games that has the player question their actions arent uncommon, just because the ethics of pokemon battles are called into question doesnt mean that people wont continue to enjoy the games anyways, itd be like saying that undertale shits on the whole rpg genre by having the geno run be the evil run as a subversion
>>56366969For one, Undertale is it's own game. Second, the Genocide run of Undertale specifically calls you out on being unambiguously evil for mercilessly killing sentient beings that are capable of love, friendship and empathy. And the end result of that is you getting killed by a evil ghost child that wants to do the same to humans as well. That's way different than Pokemon suddenly shitting on their years long whole message of how Pokemon and Human partnership is a good thing with this one game just to be "deep". If nobody liked it when Megas were retconned to be torturous battle method in SM, what makes you think people will like this?
>>56366881Read the post you're replying to again.
>>56366100>its funny to me that they decided to remove all forms of subtlety and chances to question whether or not pokemon battling was immoral by having team plasma doing the equivalent of kicking puppiesYou haven't seen PETA, have you? This isn't a strange writing choice, it's an accurate depiction of reality.
>>56367035no one in the thread has proved they aren’t shit
>>56366826>all of team plasma were either crazy liars or renounced their beliefs, so the story was absolutely trying to discredit the "pokemon are slaves" meme.>"that proves him right.">how?>"you're changing your stance."I haven't changed shit.
>Game Informer Interviewer: "Are they sentient?" >Masuda and Ohmori: "They're just getting by. They're just living."https://youtu.be/5SlzAXoO6CE?t=360Masuda is an animalfag, so he decided to shut down the "pokemon are slaves" thing because it goes against animalfaggotry by suggesting pokemon have agency. As others have stated, he tried to discredit it using Team Plasma.These people directing the games only really have interest in the human characters and would prefer to reduce the pokemon to no more than cute accessories and silly pets.
>>563670071. I know it's its own game, but what im saying is that ut subverts the whole "kill everything and grow stronger from levelling up" formula from regular rpgs and treats you as evil for trying to follow it in undertale, and everybody was fine with it, whats to say that pokemon fans wouldnt be fine with a similar subversion?2. Again, the whole mercilessly killing sentient beings is a subversion from the rpg formulas.3. Actually, the ghost child destroys the world, they dont kill you.4. By your same logic, undertale is shitting on every rpg that ever was by saying that killing creatures and grinding for lv ups is bad5. That's because it was a retcon made to get rid of megas, if it was there from the start, people would understand that the point of mega evolutions causing pain was that the pokemon is willing to suffer for the sake of its trainer, which is also why they get aggressive as shit if they mega evolve while not having a deep connection with its trainer.
>>56367097You're broadening the scope to make a point when what I talking about is contained to it's own series rather than a genre. Besides, Pokemon is already a subversion of the rpg genre in of itself by making monsters, you would normally slay, your companions. Why does it need another subversion, let alone that fundamentally shits on it's own message? And Undertale isn't shitting on the genre, because like I said, Undertale is it's own game and doesn't directly control the genre it's in. And regardless of it being a retcon, no one likes it because it's cruel and makes us look like monsters and thus, trying to deter you from liking something that's normally cool.
>>56366782>human character: "Ya know something, Mr. Mime? Team Plasma may have been liars, but maybe they had a point. I mean, you've been my BFF for years now, yet me and my family still gives you food from a brown on the floor. I guess I never questioned it till now, but...it's strange, don't you think? Hey, how'd you like to eat with us at the table from now on? Whaddaya say, Mr. Mime?">Mr. Mime: *nods in agreement* "Mr. Mime!"People think that this single piece of dialogue would somehow destroy the Pokemon franchise. It's bizarre.
>>56367211What you're asking for was already done.Burgh>Remember your speech at Accumula Town? You were responsible for leading me to rethink my relationship with Pokémon. For that, I thank you. At that time, I made a promise... I swore to myself that I would dedicate myself to Pokémon even more strongly! What you guys are doing... Aren't you going to strengthen the bond between people and Pokémon even more?"Drayden>"I can empathize with some of what you say, but I can't forgive the way you reject everything else!"
>>56367224>T-this isn’t… Ghetsis when he is gathering followers... or Ghetsis when he is trying to control people by tricking them with speeches!>Yeah... This is Ghetsis when a plan has failed and he is about to issue punishment…It writes these people off as having been tricked by a charismatic psychopath.
>>56367277>random as quote that has nothing to do with the postWhy so combative, anon?
>>56367284>Ghetsis when he is trying to control people by tricking them with speeches!It spells out that everything Ghetsis espouses is just a trick. N says actually Pokemon like being caught and used in battles, and Masuda is on record as saying pokemon aren't sentient (sapient) beings.
>>56367327So what, pokemon abuse is fine because they can consent to battles but pokesex isnt?
>>56366969Yes, Untertale is an arrogant bitch of a game. It wasn't even a misunderstanding, the monsters genuinely were trying to murder a little kid. Almost every one of them. Don't come crying about being killed when you're a killer yourself.>b-but SAVE mechanic means responsibility to be a Mother Theresano, it does not, Mr. Megalovania.
>>56367473Genocide route is where you kill the ones that aren't trying to kill you too. Otherwise you get the neutral route.
>>56367544Doesnt monster kid get all brave and starts the fight, through? Also, papyrus speaks of joining the royal guard, an army dedicated to killing humans, so in a technical way, he isnt innocent either
>>56366242Tranny Anon
>>56367553Monster kid just stands in front of you and tells you to stop killing. He doesn't attack at all and instantly sides with you again if you spare him.
>>56366242how many years has it been now? can't believe he and his discord buddies are still posting here
>>56367634He's just a convenient strawman at this point, i doubt he's still around
>>56366100The purpose of Team Plasma is to show how stupid it would be to bring up in-universe the idea that Pokémon are slaves to their Trainers. There's a bit more to it than that but that's the general idea.People are stupid in thinking that it would have been a good thing to contradict one of the main messages of the series. It wouldn't be "deep". It would have just been subversion for the sake of subversion and ruin the series.
>>56366100Team Plasma was never meant to be the "villain with a point to prove" team. Ghetsis himself said he made that tree-hugging hippie shit up. You fell for his tricks and now you're mad that you got tricked. Even after you were shown that it was nothing but hot air, you still believed it. There's no nice way to say it, you're just a moron who's too dumb for even kiddy games.
>>56368891The problem with the B/W story is that with the answer it gives to the problem nobody in universe should be able to be tricked in the first place. “Pokemon like to battle and get stronger” was established for a decade prior, it’s nonsense to bring it up as an in-universe point of contention if you’re just gonna say the same shit again.
>>56368899Is it really that unbelievable that people, especially in the pokemon universe, are also stupid and easily influenced? Talking like you *sound* right instead of being right means you get the attention of idiots who think you're the next Einstein.
>>56368891>OP: "I knew right away that Ghetsis and Team Plasma wasn't to be trusted.">(You): "You were tricked by Ghetsis."Are you retarded??
>>56369178>wtf why is the evil team not practicing what they preach and being evil?! Are you?
>>56368991The people in the Pokemon universe live and breathe Pokemon, they don’t fucking talk about or do anything else and all world building invariably comes back to Pokemon. So yes it’s extremely unbelievable, it’d be like in real life if there was an organization that wanted to exterminate all trees. Not for any purpose, they just really hate trees.
>>56369493You seriously underestimate how retarded the average person is and how much eager they are to find ascapegoat for their self inflicted problems. The only reason no one has gaslit people into hating trees is because there’s nothing to gain
>>56369493>if they don't explicitly say they hate trees that means they don'tLook outside.
>>56369493Having a pokemon doesn't make you any less susceptible to listening to dumb bullshit, and people doubt and question the world constantly. You can spin conspiracy crap out of ANYTHING and more than one idiot will fall for it if you're charismatic enough.
>>56369403>"you just don't understand that the story was SUPPOSED to be shit!"
>>56369578>the story didn't turn out how I expected it to, that means its shit!!
>>56366881It doesn't matter if they're good or shit if everyone's talking about themGen 5 won because it lives rent free in the average /vp/ poster's head
>>56369552People are stupid. They aren’t “will believe something that directly contradicts their immediate environment” stupid
>>56370048Tell that to Yellowstone in the 1920s. Guess what happened when people blamed wolves for all their problems and butchered the population into absence.
>>56370093>DIRECTLY contradicts“Wolves can attack and hurt people, therefore kill wolves” is a logical conclusion somebody can come to even if it’s ultimately incorrect. It’s not correct, but there’s a direct line of logic. Just like Chinese famine “bird eating my crops therefore kill birds”For Plasma story to be believable there’d have to be a direct reason for people to believe their cause, but there simply isn’t within the context of the setting. An attempt is made with N but they fuck it up by having him able to talk to Pokemon (lol remember how Pokemon aren’t sapient btw)
>>56370174>“Wolves can attack and hurt people, therefore kill wolves”Pokemon can do the exact same thing to people. Hell, people do that to pokemon too. Like how team rocket killed a Marowak in RBY and chopped up all of the tails off of Slowpoke and hijacked the radio to force pokemon into evolution in GSC. Professor Birch in RSE got attacked by Poochyena, and in Diamond and Pearl (but not Platinum), Barry and the Protagonist get attacked by Starly. Pokemon getting hurt by people and vice-versa is a thing that happens in the pokemon world all the goddamn time. Team Plasma's propoganda relied on the mantra "People hurt pokemon, therefore separate them".
the entire decision to create a plot to undermine and criticize the morality of catching pokemon is just poor form. It's not fun and it goes against the spirit of the franchise. You buy pokemon games to play pokemon, collect monsters and be the very best trainer, and now the game is pointing a finger at you telling you to stop having fun. It's just a stupid thing to do, and is a sign of GF writers getting a bit too high on the smell of their shit and taking themselves and pokemon too seriously. It was already decided in gen 1 that pokemon and people are friends and enjoy the mutual pursuit, and its that simple. Save the deep questions for games that are made for adults, otherwise you get the cringefest that is BW
>>56370337Undertale was beloved by many despite subverting the whole "kill everything and grind for lv ups" thing by making it a bad thing to kill things in that game, whats to say that subverting or exploring the morality of pokemon battling
>implying Game Freak or TPCi would ever want a game that ends with people seriously reconsidering their entire relationship with their Pokemon.If little Timmy feels bad at the end of his first Pokemon game because the ending tells him he's a bad person for catching and battling Pokemon he's less likely to pester his parents into buying him the next game the following Christmas. More or less what >>56370337 said, and I agree with that having actually liked Gen 5.>>56370801Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Undertale was directly marketed towards children like Pokemon is. Perhaps manchildren who onions out over that kind of subversion, but not actual children.
>>56370861There's a lot of people begging mega evolutions to return despite the whole "the pokemon is in pain!!1" thing existing, there's nothing saying that people wouldnt like it if the whole pokemon fighting's morality was explored.
>>56370914There's a bit of difference between filler Pokedex entries only the truly autistic actually care about versus the main plot of the game. Also from what I've seen a lot of people who want megas to return kind of hate the harsher Pokedex entries and would rather they be bond focused like in XY. Not that there isn't an audience for that kind of morality to be explored but again, it puts Game Freak/TPCi in a weird position marketing-wise I'm sure they'd rather not be in.Who knows, maybe they'll make a Legends game based around it so they can at least pretend it wasn't in a "main" game. Legends Arceus wasn't afraid to tackle the notion that wild Pokemon are dangerous and could literally kill you and that was received well enough to generate at least one more Legends style game.Pic unrelated.
>>56367211>Mr. Mime>from a brown on the floor
>>56367224In which part were these lines at?
Still better written than pretty much every other antagonist before and pretty much all after.
