Why is the fighting type allowed to have a blatantly overpowered attack with perfect accuracy and a negligible downside that is widely distributed to nearly everything? Doesn't Gamefreak understand how cancerous this shit is?
>>59056984Earthquake
>>59056984Originally it wasn’t widely distributed iirc
>>59056984CHARIZARD resists it so game freak doesn’t care >>59056990Once again CHARIZARD isn’t hurt by it so game freak doesn’t care
>>59056990>This more with 120 power is broken>But what about this move with only 100 power!!!
>>59057004>One drops your defenses by 1 stage>The other one has no downsides whatsoeverIf you unironically think Close Combat is better than Earthquake you literally are 3 digit ELO
>>59057027I forgot to mention that I've finally been blessed with AIDS... That's right, Jamal and I have been trying for an infection for the past few months now, and my HIV test just came back positive!
>>59056984>why does fighting type fight good?
>>59057004Earthquake has a much wider distribution and a more important role in the long term history of competitive play.
>>59057037Okay this got a chuckle out of me
>>59057046They didn't have to invent an entirely new type that resist earthquake to try to balance it so you are wrong.
>>59056984Why is Dark allowed to have the most broken damage move with no counterplay whatsoever?
>>59057060It used to have counterplay back in gens 6 and 7 but Gamefreak are fucking imbeciles and got rid of the counters.
Fighting is an aggressive type.
>>59056984There is genuinely no better feeling in Pokemon than clicking this movet. fightingfag
>>59056984Turning Close Combat into a TM was a huge mistake
>>59057056Wait, you think Fairy type was made because of Close Combat? Oh my god, you are even dumber than I thought.
>>59057305Yeah. The only people dumber are the ones who think Earthquake is a better attack than Close Combat.
>>59056984How would you balance it? Reduce defense and special defense by two stages?
>>59057060>65 power>almost nothing in the games carries itemsoh wow you took a leader's berry grats
>>59057329either lower the BP or limit the pokemon who get it
>>59057340Aww look at the cute storyfag
>>59057340Not falling for the ragebait
>using a fighting type move against a pokemon that resist itNGMI
>>59057340Hi, Campaignshitter!
>>59057371You need to be 18 to post on 4chan. Come back when you reach that age or higher.
>>59057392This was debunked, you can be 19, 20 or even 30 to post here.
>>59057056NoThey did that immediatelyAnd then added an ability whose sole purpose is granting Earthquake immunity. And a legendary pokemon's signature move is Earthquake but it ignores these immunities (it's insanely good)And a move exists in Magnet Rise, whose sole purpose is avoiding Earthquake.And an item exists, whose sole purpose is avoiding Earthquake. It required balancing by breaking when the pokemon is hit by any other attack first, since it would otherwise be the best item in the game. Roost has the notable downside of allowing the target to be hit by Earthquake on turns it is used. Roost also eliminates Flying type weaknesses, but Roost's secondary effect is almost always considered a downside because of Earthquake.Grassy Terrain has the added effect of halving damage from Earthquake. People will run Grassy Terrain if they aren't using Earthquake, just to cuck opponents trying to use Earthquake. Earthquake is a more significant move to Pokemon than Stealth Rock. Hey, want to know two moves often run together? Earthquake and Stealth Rock.Earthquake is so good it makes shit run non-stab Stone Edge to compliment it. People would NOT run Blizzard to compliment Thunderbolt, but they run Stone Edge for Earthquake.
>>59057371>120 bp>180 after stab>90 after NVEIt's better than any neutral coverage Lucario would run, good luck with Crunch Lucario.
>>59057027Quake smacks your partner unless you specifically set up around that. Close Combat is also single target.
>>59057396Thanks for listing all the ways Earthquake is worse than Close Combat and helping me to further illustrate how overpowered Close Combat is due to having much less counterplay while being a more powerful attack than Earthquake.
>>59056984The defense drop is in no way negligible though.
>>59056984>It’s overpowered because??
>>59057421So why doesn't Close Combat see as much use if it doesn't have to fight through all that then, huh?
>>59057305what? fighting type was as dominant as dragons in gen 4 and gen 5, fairy was designed to counter both
>>59057473Fighting was only big in gen 5 because they put out 4 fighting legendary poekmon, and even then there were many more flying types. Gen 4, fighting type was a joke.
>>59057410>partnervgcfags are so dull of mind they don't even know what an elo is and that vgc doesn't have one, lol
>>59056984>Play Rough>Why is the fairy type not allowed to have a blatantly overpowered attack with perfect accuracy but instead a negligible downside that is widely distributed to nearly everything? Doesn't Gamefreak understand how cancerous this shit is?
>>59057340>PMD's graduation exam>have pass scarf, ready to win almost effortlessly>corphish uses knock offfuuuuuuck
>>59057484>Gen 4, fighting type was a joke.gen 4 had lucario and machamp dominate the tier, and infernape was good purely for its access to ludicrously strong stab CC. Fighting was already great in dppou.
>>59057484>Gen 4, fighting type was a joke.Are you fucking serious? Infernape, Machamp, Lucario, and Breloom were all major threats that had a massive impact in gen 4. Focus Blast was also run on many special attackers for coverage and it made a big difference (as long as it didn't miss). You 100% never played gen 4 competitively.
>>59057484Nigger, Gen 4 is what put Fighting on the map due to Close Combat. Or did you miss the part where Snorlax went from troublesome to worthless in an instant?
>>59057473Because Gen 5 was known for FightDrag and the Weather Fighters
>>59057487Instead Fairy has Moonblast, a 95 base power special move with no downside, and an actually significant upside
>>59057329Drop speed by 2 stages
>>59057487>*negligible upside>>59057522>AttackWho cares about the Fairy Special Attackers when the Fairy Physical Attackers has mid Attack stats with only one Attack move with mid damage and non-existent benefitFairy Special Attackers always get something while Fairy Physical attackers got zilch since Gen 6
>>59057518Are you implying that Keldeo, Terrakion, Conkeldurr, Breloom, Mienshao, and Toxicroak weren't all over gen 5's meta...???
>>59057540It's almost like Fairy isn't meant to be physically proficient, and Play Rough's lack of benefit and imperfect accuracy, as well as being the sole non-signature physical Fairy move, is supposed to be indicative of this.>B-BUH WAI MAEK PHYS FAIRY DEN??????Because they can learn moves of other types. A Pokemon is not defined exclusively by its STAB, and only campaignshitters fail to understand this.
>>59056984OP still hasn’t said why CC is broken
>>59057563This is why Fairy/Steel is one of the best Fairy Combos, because their strongest attack moves are Steel STAB anywaysAll the benefits of Steel type, none of the downsides of Fairy type
>>59057574Not an answer. Close Combat works well for what it does. Use your words.
>>59057510Anon, you might want to look at gen 4 again, there's basically nothing.
>>59057554Do you mean before or after all the dragons were banned?
>>59057606terrakion was the posterchild for OP mons at the beginning of the bw metagamekeldeo was at the end
>>59057510>SnorlaxThe existence of Close Combat certainly didn't help, but Snorlax' main shortcomings are more related to more pokemon that can capitalize immensely off of free turns. Snorlax doesn't really leverage much offensive pressure, and struggles to do anything about pokemon setting up shit like dragon dance and swords dance, things that existed but were much less prevalent in gen 3. (And Snorlax was already suffering in gen 3 from these things)The physical special split, Life Orb, and pokemon generally getting stronger moves and abilities broadly made everything a bit better offensively, which made things that were a bit more on the fringe of being durable, like Snorlax, not anymore, which played a larger role in Snorlax not being as versatile as it used to be, as well. Either you run a Snorlax that needs to set up and rest, and are getting assraped by a +2 Garchomp or Salamence you can no longer stop, or you run one that doesn't, and now Bubingus 2hkos you with a life orb boosted EQ or Thunderbolt after stealth rock.
>>59057485Youre confidently wrong and retarded. Imagine that
Close Combat is so good they made Flying and Ground type versions. To think it just outright replaced Superpower on Pokemon who learn both and don't have Contrary.
>>59057578imagine having a threesome with tinkaton and mawile... that'd be so fucking hot...
>>59057329Make it work similar to Focus Punch, the Defense drop is high priority while the actual hit is low priority
>>59057890>buffing Close Combat even more for potential future Contrary users by giving them a free Cosmic Power before the turn even formally starts
>>59057407>not being a cool dude and putting blackglasses on your Crunch LucarioNGMI
>>59057907Just don't give Contrary users Close Combat, that's what Superpower is for
>description for the move is so generic that it gives GF reason to give it to basically anything in the game
>>59057941The move itself IS generic. It's just a Pokemon getting up and personal before laying a smackdown. "Infight".
>>59057329Make Steel resist Fighting instead of weak against it. It makes no sense that martial arts punching and kicking moves are super effective against metal.
>>59057978ThisIt's the cartoon fight cloud attack.If it can start a cartoon fight cloud, it can use Close Combat.
>>59057169This.
>>59057169>>59058019The amount of shit that gets it now is absurd.>Lopunny (fuck that)>Malamar (it'd just use Superpower)>Scyther (why)>Sharpedo>Crawdaunt>Absol>Krookodile>Eelektross>Aegislash (does it even use it?)>Golisopod (this is actually cool)These were the most egregious to me.
>>59058044>Krookodile gets it but not FeraligatrWhy?
>>59058060Because they hate Feraligatr. Why else do you think it got the Skibidi Toilet Retard Mega?
>>59057060>Knock Off was originally just a niche utility option so they widely distribute it>Introduce megas (and eventually z moves), buff the shit out of Knock Off to make un-removable items more centralizing>Remove megas and Z moves, Knock Off is still insanely strong and widely distributed. Now when a mon has it there is literally no reason not to click it like 80% of the timeMaybe no better example of how bad GF is at balancing
>>59057329Instead of dropping SpD, it drops Atk instead. This makes it so you can’t just spam as much.
>>59057907that's not really an absurd buff though
>>59058065Somebody in there definitely hates it. Can’t really explain the humiliation ritual Gen 3 sprites and the awful 3d model otherwise.
>>59058044>Lopunny (fuck that)>Scyther (why)Because of the animals that inspired them, you idiot.
>>59057027>>One drops your defenses by 1 stageDoesn't matter because whatever you hit is fucking dead and can't hit you back
>>59056984Fighting type was objectively garbage until gen 4 when it became decent and didn't become good until gen 5. Fuck you fagg0t
>>59057751I know Headlong Rush but what’s the flying type one? (No, Brave Bird is not the same)
>>59058652If recoil effects don’t matter then it’s no more or less broken than Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, etc
>>59058852Those deal massive damage to yourself when used repeatedly, CC does not
>>59058850dragon ascent, rayquaza's new signature move since gen 6, doesn't really count imo
>>59058854It steadily increases the damage you will take though, which is functionally the same thing as recoil chip, because at the end of the day the net effect is it reduces the number of hits it takes to kill you.A defense drop increases the damage you take by about 33%, so any attack which deals HP recoil is strictly better if the recoil does less than 33% of your total HP, at least when computing the range of incoming damage values that go from 2HKO to OHKO after a use of the move.
>>59058891Good thing the enemy won't be alive to hit you lmao
>>59058893Oh. You’re playing singles. When will you idiots learn the game isn’t balanced around singles? Singles exists as easy mode for the single player story.
>>59058997When will you stop pretending to be retarded? The single player story is what the game is. PvP is merely a tacked on mode for friends to have fun, and that autistic faggots take way too seriously.
>>59056984You get to kill the Close Combat user immediately if you survive.But that's where it gets interesting, you don't!
>>59057329There's nothing wrong with the balance, they just gave it to way too many fucking Pokemon who aren't even Fighting types.
>>59059006But if you believe that, why are you crying about Close Combat? It’s not like you’re getting hard-walled at the 4th gym by an unfair trainer mon with close combat rekting your shit. Single player is easy garbage, it’s meant for small children to beat, bitching about an OP move most mons don’t learn until the level you’d be at when facing the last gyms of the game is retarded.What you’re ACTUALLY bitching about is how imbalanced the move is in a shitty fan-managed 6v6 singles format, literally nobody designing the game gives a shit about that.
>>59056984Yeah it’s too bad there isn’t some status condition or incredibly common ability that reduces its power
>>59056984>it makes the user more frail each time it's used>it makes contact so its vulnerable to rough skin, rock helmet, baneful bunker, kings shield, spiky shield, flame body, cursed body and other things>only has max 8 pp which can easily be stalled out with pressure, high defensive bulk, high number of common resisting/immune types (ghost, fairy, flying, poison, bug)
>>59058242>Maybe no better example of how bad GF is at balancingThere's worse, like making one fully evolved Pokemon blatantly weak for the sake of it while making another Pokemon obnoxiously min-maxed and somehow able to tank a super effective hit.
fighting type used to be the type that required skilled play for unique moves but would reward youfocus punchcounterreversaletcnow it is just CC spam
>>59057396To be fair you could make those exact same arguments for toxic.
>>59059262>>it makes the user more frail each time it's used>>only has max 8 ppThese are hardly downsides in a real game.In Doubles, you’re likely going to be KO’d anyways regardless of stat drops, and matches can end in 4 turns, especially in VGC.In Singles, you can just switch to remove the stat drops. Or in plenty of cases, just sweep if you outspeed everything.>>it makes contactThis is the only actual drawback, which is a drawback shared by 273 out of 556 moves.
>>59059398>Hardly a downside>Allows for OHKO or forces a switch>You need to outspeed everything to be able sweep with itKek do you read what youre typing before posting?>which is a drawback shared by 273 out of 556 movesIrrelevant
Gen 4 is the gen that shot powercreep to the moon, CC, Rocks, U-Turn, Technician, and it's the gen that gave Sandstorm the 50% Sp. Def buff.
>>59059626Nta but the best users of CC are choiced wallbreakers, which are intended to switch out after getting one or two hits and are generally paired with defensive pivots to mitigate the downsides of being forced to switch. As for SD sweepers, they generally run CC alongside a priority move that can knock out fast and frail mons while CC is for the slow and bulky mons.
>>59059742Oh, and also please keep in mind that knocking out one of your opponent’s Pokemon and being forced to switch afterwards is generally a favorable trade off.
>>59059626Yes, the defense drop rarely matters in a real game.For it to matter you need;>The opponent to either tank the hit and be slower than you, or to be a revenge killer that’s faster/has priority>Would jump from 3HKO to 2HKO or a 2HKO to an OHKO due to the defense drops>And didn’t threaten the Close Combat user in any other way like with Thunder Wave or Will-o-wispIn the vast majority of games, you would switch out using any other fighting move anyways since either your opponent switched to a better match-up or is revenge killing with a better match up.
>>59058997>Close Combat release date: 2006>year Pokemon made doubles the official battle format: 2008
>>59059742Just checked Smogdex and it turns out that all but two of the Pokemon that use CC fall into one of the following categories:>All-out attackers (i.e. hit-and-run attackers that will switch out anyway)>Sweepers with over 100 base speed>Sweepers with a method of boosting speed>Sweepers with a priority moveThe two exceptions are defensive Braviary and defensive Breloom, and they use CC because they double as wallbreakers. So with the exception of those two, the defense drop is a negligible downside.
>>59059398>>59057421>Intimidate >Priority moves >Ghost Types >Prankster Will-O-Wisp or thunder wave >Rocky helmet >Any bulky poison type >Any Pokemon fast enough to K.O you before clicking CC>Amoonguss And that's just the things I can come up with right now, I'm sure there's a lot more counterplay
>>59056984Fighting alongside Fire and Ground are the designated "breaker" types, these are meant to be offensive and do lots of damage.Of course they will have access to powerful moves that do a lot of damage
>implying a Prankster Sableye with Will-o-Wisp wouldn't buttrape any Gutsless Close Combat user
>>59058852Your Pokemon can't 1v6 with Brave Bird because they'll die by Pokemon 3 unless they have Rock Head or some other recoil-negating ability.Your Pokemon CAN 1v6 an entire team with just Close Combat so long as they don't get hit.
>>59057329Power dropped from 120 to 110. Super Power's power changed from 120 to 125, but it drops SpD on top of Defense and Attack.
>>59057487Fairy should be removed and Game Freak should give an apology for thinking it was a good idea.
>>59057606Dragons weren't banned in Gen 5 because they all kept eachother in check. In fact, Gen 5 was so capable of handling Dragon types that the first box legendary ever to drop out of Ubers was Kyurem-B that gen. Turns out even 170 base attack with Outrage wasn't that impressive.Ignore Latios being the strongest Pokemon in the tier and a cancer upon the tier that is only allowed to stay because it keeps Thundurus-T and Keldeo in check.
>>59058065I've always hated Feralifagtr. Thought it looked atrocious since it came out, so I'm glad it's constantly getting cucked.
>>59058997The game isn't balanced around Doubles either, you retard. Game Freak has made more overtures to balancing Singles than Doubles. Heavy-Duty Boots was specifically designed for Singles, meanwhile Doubles is super overcentralized.
>>59059878This. Glad that now we can all agree Typhlosion is the best and most popular.
>>59058997>Nintendo's shoddy hardware can't run triples, the only battle mode that's actually interestingYuck
>>59059884>comp still dominated by legendaryslopIt's all so tiresome.
>>59059896sky battles are hands-down the best gimmick mode gamefreak ever created, and it needs to make a comeback starting in the competitive scene!
>>59059937Total n00b here.Are Sky Battles only for Flying Types?!
>>59059957Kinda. Only mons that fly/levitate. Was an xy gimmick and it was giga shit
>>59059957Also for Pokés with Levitate.
>>59059930Restricted formats are the most popular for whatever reason.
>>59059957Eeeeeh sortaThey're for pokemon whose models are flying. Broadly this means flying and levitate pokemon, but includes a few oddball ghost types and other stuff that has a floating model. On the flip side, it doesn't matter id you're Flying, if your model is on the ground, no dice. Toucannon would not be allowed to participateSo this is why all the flying types are retarded hang gliders in the 3D games.
>S tierClose CombatHeadlong RushKnock OffHead Smash >A tierWave CrashWood HammerFlare BlitzBrave BirdMega HornHi-Jump KickPoltergeist>B tierEarthquakeDouble EdgeFire BlastHydro PumpDraco MeteorOutrageLeaf StormOverheatMoonblastSuperpower>C tierSolar BeamSolar BladeBlizzardThunderHurricaneAura SphereBug BuzzSurfPsychicFlamethrowerThunderboltIce BeamPlay RoughSludge BombSludge Wave>D tierStone EdgeGunk ShotIron HeadFlash CannonShadow BallDark PulseFocus BlastDragon PulseIce Spinner>F tierZen HeadbuttWild ChargeSupercell SlamPower Gem
bro tried to sneak in head smash there
>>59059937The best gimmick battle format was Wonder Launcher and it’s a shame it never made it out of Gen V
>>59060163It's not super widespread but it is common enough and powerful enough to make the list. 150 bp with the only downsides being recoil and 80 accuracy is heinous.
>>59060153I'd move EQ, Fire Blast, and Outrage up a tier IMO
>>59059930Legendaries aren't really any different from regular Pokemon at this point. I'd say Garganacl alone is better than 40 - 50% of all legendaries in the game.
>>59060238>150 bp with the only downsides being [two very significant downsides]
>>59060376>GarganaclA perfect Pokemon to describe Gen 9's power creep. Don't even have to greentext why, we all know about its bullshit.
>>59060238>80 accuracy>not an absolute downside
>>59060465Same accuracy as Hydro Pump
>>59060378Neither are even significant let alone very significant
>>59059705It also introduced Garchomp which became the biggest offensive threat in the game. It made Salamence almost irrelevant.
>>59058044>Ceruledge >Barraskewda >Tapu Bulu>Malamar>Tauros>Fucking Xerneas
>>59060153How did you come up with some of these? HJK and Megahorn above EQ is insane, and putting Headsmash in S while gunk shot is in D makes no sense.
>>59061226Not actually true. Salamence rocketed right to Ubers along with it because of 120BP physical Outrage having no safe switch ins after a single DD. It also hits slightly harder because of the 135 base attack. Despite the fact that Garchomp was slighty faster, it could not safely switch in to Salamence's attacks and it also risked being burned by Fire Blast if it did. Intimidate muddies the matchup even futher as Garchomp fails to OHKO Salamence after the atk drop if it ever runs Dragon Claw instead of Outrage.
>>59059705Sad but trueWe had something resembling balance before it
>>59056984>the fighting typeThey gave it to everyone, not even just Fighting types
>>59059857Superpower should have 140 power. It's not widely distributed and it drops the same stat you just used to deal damage like Draco Meteor does.It could just drop atk by 2 stages
>>59061264Because EQ really isn't /that/ good. 100 power is just alright in the current meta, and it doesn't do anything beyond that. It's also blanked by hundreds of Pokemon. HJK just hits so hard that its downside is reasonable, and Megahorn is 120 power with 85 accuracy. Headsmash is the strongest move on that list and its downsides aren't that huge while Gunk Shot doesn't have the upside of OHKO'ing most Pokemon while also being completely blanked by the best defensive type in the game.Don't sleep on Head Smash. 150 power is nothing to sneeze at. Even neutral targets are getting absolutely shredded by it. The only solace is that it's not on something like Aerodactyl yet. 252+ Atk Choice Band Arcanine-Hisui Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 241-285 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryIf Aerodactyl got Head Smash and Brave Bird in Gen 10, it'd end up in UU, with its mega potentially getting banned from OU.
>>59061332You really want contrary users to have a leaf storm equivalent huh
>>59061406to be fair it would only buff enamorus, malamar and lurantis. Enamorus shouldn't have been made in the first place so in my eyes it's just buffing 2 already-weak mons. Not him btw.
We should RETVRN to Focus Punch shenanigans.
>>59061351I'm not saying that they don't hit hard, and I like using HArcanine in UU, I feel that the most important quality of a move is the consistency, hence why thinks like CC, knock, or scald are so game warping.When you factor in accuracy, moves like fire blast only do marginally more damage over flamethrower, so unless the extra power is needed for specific damage thresholds I try to avoid it.About headsmash, I do find it telling that both examples of it being good, HArc and Aerodactyl, both get to ignore one of the downsides of the move. It's like calling dynamic punch is an s-tier move based on Machamp and Golurk, it's more a case of an ability making a middling move good instead of making a good move great.I also missed ice spinner down in d tier, what the heck. If coverage matters for gunk shot, then ice spinner giving one of the most valuable coverage types, with more bp than the generic punches, should be at least C tier.
>>59057329It needs 90% accuracy. Zero reason for perfect accuracy.
>>59061518The recoil is hardly a downside when everything you hit with it dies. Ignoring the recoil when dealing with Blissey and Dondozo is nice, but it's not a deal breaker to not have it. Garganacl would certainly run it if it had it, and Garg can't mitigate any of the downsides.It's a fantastic move plain and simple. Easily the best 150bp move in the games. The biggest reason we don't see it more is that it isn't distributed to everything like Close Combat or Knock Off are.
>>59061867Garganacl absolutely would not run Head Smash, what the fuck are you talking about? It's a wall, it's meant to sponge hits, reducing its own HP prevents it from fulfilling its function.
>>59057329Superpower was already Close Combat, but good.
