ITT: Fuck you, I love it
Wow, that's a spicy take, dude! Here's mine, and I don't care what anyone says - it's a decent game.
>>10867714>*ruins your gamecube exclusive discussion*
>>10867593It's more controversial to not like it. I think its Mid personally but the ending still got to me and made finishing a pleasant experience, and I still play with myself looking at Yukari rule 34 (Not a coomer to clarify, I jerk off once every two weeks at most and normally have authentic fantasies in my head)
>>10868330>every two weeks at mostideally you should be doing it as little as possible. try every 3 weeks, then 4 weeks, etc
>>10868330this nigga gooning fr fr ong no cap
>>10868337This is literally normal for young people, actually less than the average. Are you trying to retain your semen>>10868340nooooo its not gooning its normal masturbation habits
>>10867593Persona 3 didn't age well mainly because it is VERY stuck in the 2000's emo themes. It's very Hot Topic.
>>10868412There's nothing normal about edging yourself for two weeks straight
>>10868480Very true. Call of Duty also aged very poorly because it's so mired in outdated WWII themes. Don't even get me started on games with medieval settings.
>when you want to make a new series but you also want to ride the success of your old series so you just give your new series 2 names
>>10867593It has a pretty dense sense of immersion to it. You can definitely get lost in this game and 4 on the PS2. Just plain beautiful music, visuals, UI. I wish the dungeons had more thoughtful design. I wish there were some cognitively demanding puzzles inside and out of the dungeons. I understand that a life sim is supposed to be easygoing and dynamic so I'm not hating on it too hard just that's what keeps it from being the ideal JRPG personally. I like pokemon betterI just always got fucking lost in Nocturne. That's my favorite SMT battle system (can't do 2D JRPGs there's just too little for my poor brain to latch onto)
Never understood the hate this game got. I loved it from the first day I rented it. Beautiful graphics and one of my favorite game soundtracks.
Critical consensus (not just talking about professional critics here) is usually correct on some generalized level , at least one or two degrees removed from any individuated point of focus
>>10867593Worst nu-sona by far, nothing happens for the first 80% of the game, the only dungeon is RNG hallways, you can't control your party members
>>10868767No.
>>10868923Prove it
>>10869135I'd be happy to if you'd be willing to restate your claim without a bunch of weasel words like "USUALLY correct on some GENERALIZED level" so that you can't shift goalposts on me halfway through the conversation.
>>10868506I didn't say that. I don't edge.
>>10868634>Don't even get me started on games with medieval settings.High Fantasy has a lasting appeal that never really faded
>>10868767Digimon World Next Order had a 49 because journalists played the game wrong (relied on the gy instead of exploring) and the UI was inconvenient. And that was a flawed but good game
>>10869240*gym
>>10869142The more times you play a game with an unbiased attitude the more likely your attitude will converge towards the repeated claims made by the least biased critics >>10869240It has very positive reviews on Steam
>>10869234You expect me to believe that you don't play with your dick for two weeks while coping with the excuse of "it doesn't count because I didn't nut" before finally giving in?nigga please
>>10869271I don't believe there is such a thing as an unbiased attitude. Our preferences are the result of our experiences and how we individually relate to cultural norms and expectations. We are social beings on such a fundamental level that even our understanding of prima facie reality is the result of intersubjective processes. We can't step outside of this. There is no way to criticize art in a vacuum because there is no way to interpret or even give structure to the world without a past to draw from.Metaphysics aside, I think that video game criticism in its current form is incredibly lazy. Your average critic, professional or otherwise, lacks a clear vision for the medium, both prescriptively and descriptively. The topics of quality and medium are generally approached with a "you know it when you see it" attitude. Nobody is ever asked to defend their critical standards, because almost nobody has any. I don’t mean to imply that there’s a single, objective method to evaluate games. I think it’s imperative for a critic to develop his own methods and standards. My issue is that outside of developers, a select few critics, and a handful of academics working in game studies, nobody takes the medium seriously enough to develop a method at all. If you do have a reasoned and consistent approach to criticism, you’ll quickly find yourself at odds with critical consensus, as that consensus is full of contradictions.When you have a consistent critical standard, playthroughs beyond the first couple really shouldn’t be too impactful on your impression of a title. You play the game and then apply your methodology to it. Exceptions exist, of course, such as games which are deceptively simple at first glance (Resident Evil 4 being a beat ‘em up disguised as a third-person shooter comes to mind). Some games might demand alterations or expansions to your standards as well (I had to do this recently with Dead Space). But, again, those are few and far between.
>>10869582A games are experience simulators. They're some degree of a variable series of inputs and outputs that result in your reinforcing or differentiating neural circuits. Since video games act on neural circuits that have been reinforced and differentiated from experiences of reality and also other mediums, there's no reason that critical standards of anything at all can't be applied to games themselves. From film, literature, to calculus and physics, spirituality.Composite opinion represents the collective experience that was produced from the software. If you dig through a large enough sample size, you should be able to gauge from the critics words and style how different their values and intellect differ from your own
>>10869621Please excuse the typos I'm exhausted from my studies
>>10869582>>10869621In the end, it's up to you to decide which biases are stupidity and which biases are intelligence, it's this personal assemblage that everyone develops that constitutes the character of their intelligence
>>10867593people really shit on this and i get why, i really find it comfy with all the weapons and stuff you can use on same enemy with a recolor #224i also don't know why it's so expensive either since i just lookedgot my copy for really cheap recently so im kinda thrown for a loop about that
>>10867714perfect answer. Its so simplistic but it plays like butter and looks cool as hell.
>>10869621>>10869628I agree with your conclusion here - that we ought listen critics whose method aligns similarly to our own. But this is a different claim from your initial one, "critical consensus is usually correct on some generalized level", and your reworded one, "the more times you play a game with an unbiased attitude the more likely your attitude will converge towards the repeated claims made by the least biased critics". It differs from the first in that it ignores critical consensus entirely. It differs from the second in that, instead of appealing to unbiased critics, you claim we ought favor those whose bias aligns with our own (assuming I'm interpreting you correctly - correct me if I'm wrong).I would push back on your definition of what a video game is on the grounds that it is hyper-inclusive to the point of meaninglessness. By your given definition, any input/output device would be a video game, which I think is pretty obviously not the case. My definition of a video game is a set of rules, featuring at least one clearly delineated fail state and success state, that are automatically enforced via digital means.I also reject the notion that inter-medium critical standards exist. What does it even mean to evaluate a game like one might a text (beyond Derridian "everything is a text" shenanigans)? While all mediums work neurologically (if we're to accept that theory of mind, which is contentious), nobody evaluates art at a neurological level. Similarly, one doesn't evaluate flavors of ice cream on a cellular level, but on a phenomenological one. Every medium has it's own unique features and priorities which, in turn, require a unique set of critical standards. It makes little sense to evaluate the encounter design of a book, for example.Thanks for your civility and earnestness by the way - you're a fun guy to talk to :^)
>>10867593>P3 FES I wanted to try the remake, but I can't play it until I finish this one first
>>10868330Why the fuck was this goon info necessary
>>10870259Personally, I appreciate oversharing.
>>10867593>grindfests that aren't DQpale imitations, all of them
>>10868641Super Mario Land 3: Warioland
>>10869738Critical consensus is always determined by some observer. Repeated playthoughs of a game after playing other games will have a strengthened resonance from whichever biases you strengthened in that time interval. So at such a point you should have a heightened ability to determine critical consensus >any input/output deviceany input/output device which simulates an experience. Even rudimentary puzzle games simulate problems. Sports simulate combat. Puzzle simulate engineering Sure the brain is self critical to distinguish the state of being of different phenomena and keeps them separated in a neurologically healthy such as yours , lol
>>10870651Knowledge of everything is determined by an observer. This renders the dichotomy of objective and subjective knowledge somewhat obsolete, but i think we can retain some semblance of objectivity by describing certain bodies of knowledge as "ideally objective" - knowledge which ought be externally verified to the greatest extent our sensory organs and internal biases allow - which is how I would describe something like critical consensus.In light of this, your claim that we can better determine critical consensus by replaying a game is really strange to me. If I was tasked with determining what the critical reception of a certain game was, the last thing I would do is play it several times. Critical consensus is ascertained by engaging with the opinions of others, after all, not deepening your own. I would probably start by looking at the reception section of the games Wikipedia page which has a bunch of historical scoring information. I'd probably also look at more modern scores like Glitchwave, Backloggd, and HLTB. This would give me a good understanding of the general attitudes towards a title. Then, I'd read some reviews to see if there are any consistent themes between them. Certain mechanics or sections which are consistently praised or criticized. This would help me flesh out my knowledge of the reception of a game beyond whether it was simply approved/disapproved of as a total package. At no point do I actually have to play the game during this process, although a playthrough would certainly help contextualize the reading."Simulates an experience" is a little vague, but I think I get the spirit of your claim. I would still contest that things like VR Chat, Garry's Mod, and pure walking simulators are something other than games because they lack fail states and success states. "Digital worlds" or something similar feels more accurate.I'm not sure I understand what you mean, or what you're responding to with your final statement there.
>>10871187Playing games makes you understand games better. The games you play before and after alter and deepen your perspective. Critical consensus can be organized by levels depending on your perspective. You can easily skim through reviews and ignore the critics who have an underdeveloped understanding of the medium according to your criteria. Consensus doesn't mean you have to listen to everyone, just the ones who know what they're talking about.As for the last part, the part of the mind that organizes things according to their category is an important negative force for the development of concepts. Concepts can aid in communication by telling you what something is by implicitly telling you what it isn't, unfortunately this hampers creativity by telling you that something isn't something when maybe it could be. In my opinion the ideal critic will balance his conceptual thinking with anti-conceptual thinking in order to leave smooth, empty space for creativity
>>10871340Of course anti-conceptual thinking is mostly an instrumental procedure to make room for more concepts
>>10871340I totally agree with your first paragraph here, but it feels weird to me to call that a consensus. I see the term as being a bit more democratic than that. One person, one vote kind of thing. Our disagreement is likely just definitional.I kind of figured you had some background in philosophy, but I wasn't expecting to run into a proper Deleuzian on /vr/ :^)I'm going to feel very stupid if this assumption is wrong, but the talk of smoothness, difference, assemblages, and the emphasis on creativity and generating concepts is a bit too much to ignore. Anyways, I haven't read Deleuze outside of ATP and a few essays for university work. I'll also be honest and admit we're getting a little above my pay grade, so I mostly just have questions for you at this point.I get that differential ontology has emancipatory implications for the creative process. But how do you, personally, apply this to the critical and interpretive? What does that balance between conceptual and and anti-conceptual thinking look like? Do you have any examples of game critics who exemplify this, intentionally or otherwise? I'm trying to become a better critic myself. Is there anything by D&G you'd recommend for this?
>>10867593It's super stylish, but the dungeon exploration is terrible. And the plot is mehAigis is only a poor man's imitation of Kos-Mos as well, I am sad to say
>>10867593i also liked this much loved game
>>10868330>and I still play with myself looking at Yukari rule 34She's 16 years old. You are a pedophile.
>>10870259I'm sorry ok whenever I'm on 4chan its like there's no reason to have a filter because its anonymous. I tend to post unfiltered thoughts without caring much. I still say its not gooning
>>10871632>Aigis is only a poor man's imitation of Kos-Mos as well, I am sad to sayAnon..do you think Xenosaga invented "autistic robots" Both of these were influenced by Rei Ayanami who also did not invent that. It's an old sci fi trope that anime thought to combine with Moe elements
>>10871564Good catch, I have read several of Deleuze's works (What is Philosophy, Kafka: Towards a Minor Liturature, Difference and Repetition, Spinoza: Practical Philosophy). In my very personal opinion, the purpose of critique is to expose mindlessness, the purpose of interpretation is to harness mindfulness. Deleuze himself rarely hinted at where and how he intended for his ideas to be employed. His idea of philosophy was some sort of demiurgic force which ruptured holes in discursive systems. Showing the way that a system always limits and compresses cognition down discursive paths for some purpose or another. Within a system there lies energy, lines of escape. Games have been in a long process of becoming something politically sedative but they create energy that builds up higher and higher and higher, who knows what could be done with this?
Thanks for letting me show off my words by the way. As you can probably tell I am very proud of them
-ACK
>>10873106So he killed himself in the midst of a respiratory illness? I don't know a whole lot about him as a person.You get the impression from his writings that he's a bit of a linguistic showoff, with that style that all the French postmodernists have. For me the main benefit of reading him is expanding your language skills. He draws on many important but less famous thinkers and applies terminology of early calculus, metaphysics, phenomenology, all to the formation of concept.You don't have to understand what he's saying but forcing his writings into your head makes you better at expressing your own ideas. I have zero interest in gender theory whatsoever if that's what you're implying by "ACK"
>>10872263>In my very personal opinion, the purpose of critique is to expose mindlessnessWould a consequence of this be that you don't believe there is such a thing as an artistic choice which is both intentional and worthy of critique?>Games have been in a long process of becoming something politically sedativeIt's hard to imagine them being anything else. Simulation (in the colloquial sense) is almost inherently a form of sublimation, and software is arborescent by it's nature.>>10873521AFAIK he was about to succumb anyways. A few months ago I read his final essay, which was ironically on immanence and vitalism. Made me kind of sad.>For me the main benefit of reading him is expanding your language skills.The main thing I got out of ATP was the revelation that the history of philosophy is nothing but a repetitive process of explicating and reproducing the presuppositions which brought itself about in the first place. I think you sum it up nicely with "showing the way that a system always limits and compresses cognition down discursive paths for some purpose or another". Similar to Foucault, but grounded in metaphysics rather than history. Kind of nullified my entire BA in a few hundred pages, if I'm being honest.
>>10869621>>10871564>>10872263The flaw with an academic-theoretical approach is that the postmodern settlement of critical theory shifted its function away from appreciation and judgement (criticism) toward activism and ethics. Canon maintenance is no longer allowed to proceed above board. Instead it needs the cover story of activist scholarship, and as such, explicit judgment of the quality of works is more or less outlawed in modern critical literature. The ground shifted, in the 20th century, from criticism to interpretation, and interpretation was just as quickly inscribed in the political sphere. The Deleuze-Guattari project, and its poorly-translated uptake in the anglophone arts and architecture spheres, but also in literary criticism (although this has cooled since the 90s) are great examples - the goal is no longer to judge which works are great (major) literature, but to preserve and cultivate minor literatures whose quality is assumed to be beyond reproach as a matter of method.This is totally antithetical to the needs of a video game criticism for which concepts like FUN are fundamental criteria.>>10873634>the history of philosophy is nothing but a repetitive process of explicating and reproducing the presuppositions which brought itself about in the first place.Read Hegel.
>>10873634>you don't believe there is such a thing as an artistic choice which is both intentional and worthy of critique?I would say if a creator AND the player fully understands the work ( this is analogous to mathematical infinity - impossible to apply, but worthy of measurement ) (only masterpiece level games approach full understanding ) Then it will be a 10/10 experience. It's a matter of convergence.>>10873634>Simulation (in the colloquial sense) is almost inherently a form of sublimation, and software is arborescent by it's nature.Good points but higher planes can be implanted onto arborescent forms. Simulation can be made to work against its own ontology. Most attempts at this have been heavy handed but it is possible. >>10873634>history of philosophy is nothing but a repetitive process of explicating and reproducing the presuppositions which brought itself about in the first placeAnd that's a good thing ; ) >>10873703>This is totally antithetical to the needs of a video game criticism for which concepts like FUN are fundamental criteria.Sure. My approach is to select the tools that I think are useful and disregard those who in my opinion misuse them.>>10873703>HegelSomeday. When I have the time
>>10874026Bro, no Nigger
>>10874026chrono what?
>>10868480the game is literal dog shit. There is nothing emo or edgy about it. It's just dog shit story, character, gameplay, dungeons, everything. Can't believe I wasted 80 hours of my life with it, at this point I'm convinced all the people saying "it gets better in the last 3rd" were trolling me. Dogshit game
>>10868756>It has a pretty dense sense of immersion to it. You can definitely get lost in this game and 4 on the PS2literally HOW??
>>10874026Look, it's SSJ1 Gohan
>>10867593this game is only liked by 14yos or impossible autists. Even when it's trying to be deep it's goofy as hell and it just fails miserably. Not even "so bad it's good" type, just terrible
>>10874026Chrono Cross is the better game out of the two and I'm tired pretending it's not. Every game that enrages dumb autists is based in my book.
>>10876038>Chrono Cross is the better game out of the twoNah. If only cause of how shitty the battle system is, how most of the characters are pointless and little more than color changes and how the plot completely falls apart. You probably just played it when you were like 14 and it became a defining experience for you. It's objectively worse.
>>10875949Lost figuratively dummy
>>10868480It's not really emo much at all. I think it aged because the school elements and setting were more novel and carried it more at the time>>10869549woah, projection. I'm not actually that horny bro. Whenever I masturbate I always cum
>>10875959>this game is only liked by 14yos or impossible autists.Not to be like this but 97 metascore, and sold well. It's almost final fantasy tier>Even when it's trying to be deep it's goofy as hell and it just fails miserably. Not even "so bad it's good" type, just terribleThat is because it is basically YA fiction for teens. and you are an adult
>>10876181*89 I misremembered
>>10876181popular = good?at least you realize yourself that its a r/im14andthisisdeep game
>>10876207Retard. I was specifically responding to you implying its only liked by a niche. You are probably not even smarter than the game if you missed that
>>10876601>niche>89* metascore, and sold well. It's almost final fantasy tiertroll?
>>10876648Stop embarrassing yourself.
>>10868480The game takes place in 2009. It's a period piece and feels like it.
>>10876648Uh, stop right there buddy, I'm a different anon and I have to flag you for this. Persona 3 on PS2 did not sell final fantasy numbers. Persona 3 on PS2 was a game about making you feel like shooting yourself in the head where you couldn't control your party members and dying sent you back an hour and a half. Persona 3 sold in the hundreds of thousands and final fantasy sold millions. Persona 4 and beyond blew the series up.
>playing game>mom walks in right as my character shoots himself in the headawkward
>>10877053>making you feel like shooting yourself in the headyou're right about that part
>>10867593Fuck you Noseybonk, you gave me nightmares for a whole week
>>10867593Ive finished 4 golden a while ago and am interested in 3, is not being able to direct command your friends that bad or are people exaggerating?
>>10879075Coming from Golden, you're going to be way more annoyed by not being able to choose your fusion skills.
>>10879075You do have to strategize more, but it isn't the end of the world. Just analyze a new enemy when you see it.>>10879075
>>10877030Its not a period piece Anon. It was just set contemporaneously (or a couple years in the future I guess) with its release date. The remake would be a period piece, but not the original.
>>10879075Just play p3 portable. It's the streamlined version to be more in line with how p4&5 are
>>10876038>Chrono Cross is the better game out of the twonahits fucking gr8 thodef my favorite PS1 jarpig
>>10868762It's a great game. With a bittersweet ending from what I vaguely remember. >>10869240It's a cool game but it honestly filtered me because of the random difficulty spikes and my Digimon randoml shitting before I could get them to a toilet. Also there was one status debuff early on that killed my Digimon outright. I'm talking super early when you're only able to get the daily freebies from the first village. I kinda want to pick it back up now.
