Todd is so petty lol.
I'm not angry. I'm not even disappointed.I'm just numb.
>>3450670>>3450667Weird, you would expect the pozzed Netflix writers to be the kind of "fallout fans" that only played new vegas
>>3450672>NetflixI thought it was Amazon.
>>3450673It is.
Unfathomably based. NCR is retarded and boring/legion makes no sense/ the rest is gay. Long live megaton
>>3450675Fuck MegatonLittle lamplight is the cunnyseour choice albeit Maggie is on Megatron so don't nuke it
>>3450675>NCR is retardedThe NCR was created in Fallout 2, it has more legitimacy than anything introduced in Fallout 3.
>>3450667Not vidya.
>>3450667Based>>3450682I sure hope they reintroduce all the legitimate talking animals from FO2
>>3450667I don't know what's worse you faggots shitting the shit board with off topic threads or thinking that meme man himself Hod Toward looked over the script of the free promotion material and was like "Remove all the gay shit those fucking neckbearded trannies and Obshittian added or I won't let you buy the rights for the series."
>>3450688Tim Cain rejected the talking animals specifically because they didn't fit the tone of the series. It's a shame he wasn't there to keep Todd under control.
>>3450696>It's a shame he wasn't there to keep Todd under control.Eh, lets not go overboard with the grease gun and Timmy Cain.
>>3450694The Fallout show is canon to the universe and the writers consulted with Bethesda to make sure they approved the story.
>>3450697It's so funny to me that to this day /vrpg/ still completely misunderstood the point Tim was making there.
>>3450700>canon>completely contradicts established mechanics and lore present in the gamesIt's shitty PR speak to get idiot fanboys to watch it and to make it sound like a TV/movie is legit and not a shitty lazy cashgrab.
>>3450702Looks pretty self-explanatory if I'm being honest.
>>3450700I am sure in the upcoming Fallout New Vegas Re-Master Re-Release there will be no NCR because some retarded show nobody working at Bethesda will ever watch.The Witcher, Halo and this Fallout tv show are just slop made by a third party to sell to both "Fans" of those series that will buy anything and to people who think that if they are considered fans of those they will also be considered smart.You talking about this dogshit is just generating free marketing for them.
>>3450703Maybe, but even if that is the case New Vegas would still not be canon.
>>3450702
>>3450696He wasn't there to keep fo2 under control either
>>3450704Yeah, context never matters
>>3450704I agree, which makes it even funnier when basically everyone on this board misunderstands it.
>>3450706Imagine worrying about the canon for a series where the main villains are Mister Sterilizer, The US government, The EPA, Your son. And the good guys are You, Grandma, Your Dad, Your local reenactment group.
>>3450712Making the build a float point reduces the impact of build decisions and making it so there are no bad choices makes the already brain deadness of RPGs even worse.
>>3450709If only he kept anyone under control for The Outer Worlds.
>>3450713>where the main villains are the US government, the EPA...So, it's like real life?
>>3450697Cain's point was that asking players to make big game impacting decisions with no context for what it actually means early or having needlessly convoluted stat/leveling systems is not good design. Not to literally use triangles instead of stats.The creator of that image didn't understand something spoonfed to him.
>>3450717>Cain's point was that asking players to make big game impacting decisions with no context for what it actually means early or having needlessly convoluted stat/leveling systems is not good designYeah, I get his point, I just disagree with it. If you don't allow players to fuck up their build, you invalidate character building, since otherwise everything (equally) well. To me that is the greatest design sin you can commit in an RPG.
>>3450717>no contextRTFM. Oh wait, they don't make them any more.>needlessly convolutedIncredibly vague value judgement.
>>3450718*works (equally) well
>>3450716Copying real world things without change is a faux pass in fiction.
>>3450717So his argument is that complexity is bad? Or at the very least "front-loaded complexity" is bad.I'd say that anyone who can't handle rolling up a character and doesn't know what "Strength" or "Agility" would do probably shouldn't be the audience you're catering to.
>>3450723The idea is to not turn away people that don't like RPGs, even though they'll just google the shit immediately no matter how simple you make it, in order to find what is best, because they simply don't like making any decisions on their own.
>>3450725>The idea is to not turn away people that don't like RPGs>You just gotta make RPGs less like RPGs so the people who don't like RPGs will play them
>>3450718>I just disagree with itWhich makes you stupid.RPGs are about choices and informed decisions, not selecting things at random and hope for the best.>If you don't allow players to fuck up their build, you invalidate character buildingIf a player fucks up a build because of lack of context or you not communicating something, it's your fault as a designer, not the player, if they fuck up their builds.If you have a Strength stat and it says "increases melee damage" and an Dex stat that says "increses ranged damage", but then later in the game have heavy ranged weapons that require a high strength value so the player focusing on ranged weapons can't use them.Them fucking up their build now isn't their fault, but you as a designer and designing things poorly.Not only that, but it's a very bad failure loop (common in design and useful if done right, unlike here). Because the "mistake" is bad in the beginning and the impact is only noticed 20 hours later. The "mistake" also stems from the designer not giving the player the relevant context and information, which also actively means they can make less informed decisions.
>>3450723Yeah, I don't think he gets that we have examples of simple fronts for character generation and balanced classes that allow every single character to do everything very well. They're called MMOs (and Bethesda games).
>>3450717FO4 is a great example for this, since perks have attribute requirements that you can only see after you've chosen stats.>>3450718>you invalidate character building, since otherwise everything is fun to playSounds horrible
>>3450719>Incredibly vague value judgement.It's not. The best design is concise and clean.PoE has a really bad skill tree anyway, since it's filled with so much padding of extremely minor passives.
>>3450723>So his argument is that complexity is bad?See how even when things are explained to you people on this board still misunderstand. Just like you did now.It's fucking hilarious.
>>3450729>Sounds horribleSounds like you don't like RPGs anon.>>3450727>If a player fucks up a build because of lack of context or you not communicating something, it's your fault as a designer, not the player, if they fuck up their builds.Last time I checked, abilities and attributes have descriptions. >Not only that, but it's a very bad failure loop (common in design and useful if done right, unlike here). Because the "mistake" is bad in the beginning and the impact is only noticed 20 hours later. So, you should allow the player to make mistakes, just not 20 hours down the line? Sounds like streamlining to me.
>>3450730>The best design is concise and clean.For you.
>>3450731>it would be better to make a rudimentary system than to deny the player an option in a roleplaying gameSounds like the removal of complexity to me fren, why don't you explain what he meant for him
>>3450727>RPGs are about choices and informed decisions, not selecting things at random and hope for the best.If your statistic page seems like random gibberish and a player can't design a character or you have stats that aren't supported throughout the game, that's a bigger problem than confusing people at character creation. The simple fact is that RPGs are a knowledge check and picking up a new RPG is about learning the systems at play, and not everyone likes that kind of thing.
>>3450731We're here to argue, not to understand. So sometimes we need to understand things in a way that allows us to argue more and win those arguments.
>>3450727Neither Tims Triangles or the Old School system of a stat page fix the biggest problem in the system, retarded devs only adding a token uses for some stats while loading the usefulness of some stats. Which is the real problem, not "the 70 IQ nigger who won't play our game might make a High IQ low ST melee fighter". And that problem was solved by Todd.
>>3450730PoE passive tree isn't even that complex, you get one point at a time and track towards the notables you want for your build. You can also respec quite easily. The complex part is gear.
>>3450737And then some people's argument is that you don't understand their argument and their evidence for that misunderstanding is that you, *gasp*, disagree with them.
>>3450739
>>3450732>Last time I checked, abilities and attributes have descriptions.And if that description doesn't include relevant context that can have big impact on how to distribute stats and builds it's the designers mistake, not the player.Cain made the examples of the player not even understanding what the actual game impact down the line is between a strength value of 5, 6 or 7. Which is something that's a problem in many RPGs.Players often lack relevant information, especially during character creation, which will have a huge impact for thow the rest of the game plays out.>So, you should allow the player to make mistakes, just not 20 hours down the line? No, I'm saying a good failiure loop not only doesn't make the failure noticeable +20 hours down the line for countless reasons (harder to know what caused the failiure, feels unfair, can misattribute it to the wrong things, etc. etc.). But it's even worse if their failiure stems from you not giving them the relevant context.Like imagine if you were asked to do a test at school and the time slotted out on your schedule was 2 hours. But then after 40 minutes the person holding the test says "time's up, everyone that hasn't handed in their tests yet automtically fail".Not only would that feel incredibly unfair and shitty, but you as the test taker couldn't even think about decisions like>i'll skip over these questions for now and get back to them later if I get the time>i'll save myself 5 minutes before hand-in to allow myself to read through my answers for errorsSo you actively also made it (if we're looking at it from a design and RPG perspective) less interesting and thoughtful.It's about making a better RPG experience for literally everyone, regardless of skill level. Unless you think making informed decisions is a bad thing and prefer things to be random guesswork.
>>3450733Ah yes, I guess some people prefer bloated and messy. Just like how some people are into scat and eating shit.
>>3450734Why are you repeating the very thing you misunderstood as if that makes it less likely I won't just keep laughing in your face?
>>3450735>learning the systems at play, and not everyone likes that kind of thing.This is the only good reason not to have clear design that allows players to make informed decisions.But, as fun as it may be for some, is it necessarily for the best to have this aspect AT THE START of a roleplaying game, where you're creating a character, not a test runner for exploring game systems.
>>3450743Buddy, you're arguing for RPGs like Skyrim, Fallout 3, Oblivion and Twitcher 3. Guess what, you've got 'em, and they're shit.
>>3450747this you?
>>3450749>Buddy, you're arguing for RPGs like Skyrim, Fallout 3, Oblivion and Twitcher 3... which all were massively popular successful RPGs
>>3450735>The simple fact is that RPGs are a knowledge checkAnd that knowledge shouldn't be gained after completing the game because the devs just didn't give players relevant information.At that point there is no thought behind the decisions you make, making your choices not actual choices, but random coinflips.But maybe you enjoy thoughtless coinflips. You prefer to not think.
>>3450739It's bloated and padded.
>>3450737>We're here to argue, not to understandThis should be a pinned post on this board.You're right, people here only want to fling shit and not understand anything. Which is why even wasting time trying to make people understand something they have no intention of understanding pointless.So I prefer to just laugh at the idiots on this board instead. More fun, saves time.
>>3450749>Buddy, you're arguing for RPGs like Skyrim, Fallout 3, Oblivion and Twitcher 3.Nope. Those games even make the kind of mistakes I'm talking about. So you're not even getting what's being said.
>>3450748I mean, that's just how it goes, maybe more robust tutorials are in order as an intro, with pre-genned characters. To me, a game is less fun if I can't figure it out on my own, I love that feeling of confusion and grasping in the dark to figure out what does what as you play it more and more. But, really, most people just look it up or ask online for the "best build" no matter what you do to appease them. The only thing I really don't want is some school of universal design from outside this genre to impinge on my fun, telling developers that you must make games this way because scaring customers away at CC is verboten. What you'll do is turn off people who like RPGs, who recognize patterns and gain genre mastery and can make informed decisions even with new games.
>>3450753Wow, bloated AND padded? There aren't even that many notables, the minor shit you get when pathing is just the cost of said notables. There's absolutely no pressure with character creation in PoE either, so it doesn't even make sense. It's just some people look at the passive tree and get turned off, while others look at it and get hard.
>>3450757There's a difference between>i wonder all the different ways i can use skill x, y and zand>my archer can't use great bows and long bows because i have a strength of 5 and not 6, which i selected during char creation 20 hours ago? with no word of it being needed?The former is interesting, the latter feels like a fuck you. The decision to bump up the strength to 6 the next time you play is not a big or interesting decision either. If players feel the need to read wikis beforehand for games for fear of things like this, then it's even worse.
>>3450756There's no way to fuck up your build in those games, so they have no "guesswork" as you put it.
>>3450762This is why you don't have a strict concept for your first character. Pick something simple like a fighter who hits hard or whatever and make it work with what you find. I'm not a fan of hard stat thresholds for items anyway. People are going to read the wikis no matter what, they hate making decisions.
>>3450761The tree is poorly designed. End of story.This kind of padding is done when the designers don't know how to design a leveling and skill system well, so they pad it with minor passives.Games like Assassin's Creed Valhalla did the exact same mistake.It's the easiest most low effort way to design skill trees, that requires no actual thought and makes the end-user interaction worse because the way you have to design the tree is ironically very restricting in a bad way.
>>3450763Re-read my posts until you get it. I don't like repeating myself.
>>3450766>End of story.lol, the God of Game Design has spoken. Okay, have fun.
>>3450767I don't have to, you're wrong and stupid anon.
>>3450751Is Witcher really an RPG? Your influence on your character and the story is negligible.
>>3450757>I love that feeling of confusion and grasping in the darkYeah it can be nice, but it's not a good fit for a RPG where the player may have or may want a clear picture of the character they're going to roleplay.I'd say it's better to have that aspect outside of character creation. Or look for another genre of games with less roleplaying lol
>>3450706no one cares about bethesda "canon" except retarded pajeets like (You)
>>3450764>This is why you don't have a strict concept for your first characterThis is literally how people have made characters in roleplaying games since the dawn of time.>I want to make X>People are going to read the wikis no matter what, they hate making decisions.They do it because designers have conditioned them to. It's ironically the designers fault players behave in a way they don't want them to.Players look up questlines in FromSoft games because the quests make no sense, can't be undone and just feel random.>talk to a character>find a random item 5 hours later, happen to talk to the character again for no reason, character wants that random item after no prior indication>this starts a quests and the character just fucks off to god knows where>character is on the opposite side of the map behind a hidden wall, but only if you started the quest>if you pass an invisible point on the map the character can just be dead or not show up for no reasonOr even more random things.
>>3450762Sure thats a perfectly valid observation, but the example shown is of a more rudimentary system being better because it generally lacks that design flaw. As a consequence of trying to fix that issue a developer can decide to overcorrect which is the industry trend I've seen as of late. I would much rather have a playthrough I felt I was cheated, especially when the purpose of the game is to replay it multiple times, than to have a rudimentary system that is more accessible from go. There are obviously other possible solutions to that flaw, its just not the one he showed.
>>3450751>Popular>SuccesfulHello fellow redditor! Updooted!
>>3450770So you think putting a point into a passive that gives you 0,5% more crit damage that you won't even notice is interesting, exciting and amazingly fun? Okay then.
>>3450771Says the person lacking basic reading comprehension that doesn't even undestand something explained in layman terms.When I'm talking about physics and you start rambling about how you think umbrellas are stupid and I tell you I'm not talking about umbrellas and to re-read my post, you saying I'm stupid and wrong doesn't have the impact you think it does.
>>3450780Yeah bud, I didn't read your posts because they're too long. Brevity is the soul of wit, if you had a point to make instead of spewing your mental retardation you could have made it in two sentences.
>>3450776The trend is not to overcorrect, but to just make bad systems from feedback not coming from within the dev team itself.It's very common for a publisher or someone in power to just roll in and say dumb shit like>so i played game y this weekend and i think we should change half our game to have it, get it done in 3 monthsor>don't do anything new, just do it like game x, you trying to make things better is too riskyor>fortnite just added loot goblins and that's popular, so lets add that in the game you're making despite the game having no loot
>>3450781>Brevity is the soul of witSure, but when the person (you) doesn't even get something when overexplained then clearly the wit is lacking on your end.But interacting with someone over text with poor reading comprehension is moot, so I'll stop here.
>>3450784I accept your concession.
>>3450667Who cares, that show was always going to be shit. It's pretty much a rule that game ip's adapted to film suck ass or at best are hilariously bad. Fallout has two good games (1&2) and one unfinished one, the rest is essentially fanfic.
>>3450781We need to dumb down discussion for this guy lmao
>>3450790reddit comment
>>3450788>person doesn't understand what someone is saying>is told that>haha, i accept your concessionEven your replies are parroted, indicative of someone incapable of basic human thought. Not surprising, but no less funny.
>>3450749Fallout 3 does the very problem explained to you and you list it as a game that doesn't.Can you explain what you think what was actually being said at >>3450743
You cant have a functional proto-nation in your apocalypse themed entertainment park sorry
>>3450718>If you don't allow players to fuck up their build, you invalidate character building, since otherwise everything (equally) well.This only proves that you don't understand his point.His point isn't that bad builds shouldn't exist or that all builds should be viable. That's a Sawyer thing and something else entirely. His point is that it's bad design to present the player with a wide array of granular choices to make before the game even starts (for example, every D&D-based game where your starting stats can make or break an entire build) and before the player even knows what the game is about. So you offer some simple choices up front (for example, do you want a strong character, a smart character, or a balanced character?) and then layer on depth over time as the player gets familiar with the game and learns to understand what the game demands of a character build. This still allows you to make bad builds because at every step you can still make bad (or at least counterproductive) choices, but it means you no longer have to know what a good build looks like before you even start playing the game.
>>3450835>you shouldn't assume people can intuit an RPG system>appeal to the lowest common denominator to please the most amount of people>he's not saying simplify it, he's saying make it easier to understandI don't know what to tell you champ
>>3450823>functional proto-nationNCR is the lamest thing in Fallout, makes sense not to waste space on it
>>3450835Nta, but this cuts both ways. It's not a matter of one necessarily being better than the other, but there are pros and cons to both approaches. I'd say some of the worst examples of either might be fallout 4 and pathfinder (km/wotr).And in general we get more games that streamline and dumb down, so favouring it just leads to less and less complex rpgs. F4 is so casual it hardly has rpg mechanics left while pf is an exercise in spreadsheet build optimization. However we're getting so few "hardcore" crpgs to begin with that the likelyhood of them being good is small just from a statistical point of view. Thus casualizing games leads more and more into them being amorphous genre-adjacent rpg-ish games. Kinda like cyberpunk 2077 cut pretty much 99% of the planned rpg mechanics and ended up more like a action game / fps-game, which was good mind you but not really a robust rpg.In the past it was hoped future would bring better fleshed out rpg systems and all kinds of im-sim ways to fuck around with the game. Instead the future brought streamlining (which in 99% of cases translates to dumbing-down).I would really like to see what a high-production value, high complexity, robust rpg system crpg would like like in 2024+, but we'll never get the simulation(/system/autism)-maxxing since it turns off the more casual buyers and is not profitable.It would literally take someting like big money investor patronage to create "the new great modern rpg" since the market just isn't big enough to want it on its own. That's how great historical art projects were accomplished in the past, not by peddling the most marketable item to the masses.tl;dr: elitism would be good for crpgs
>>3450778What game are you talking about?
>>3450847>high complexity, robust rpg system crpg would like like in 2024Any examples of existing games similar to your expectations?
>>3450864fuck, it's a typo: *look like in 2024+*i.e. such a game does not exist since such robust system-heavy games are for a limited market, which means they're not economically viable to make and are reduced to one man autism projects that simply do not have the resources to make such a project alone.Customized AI-generated games for a market of one single individual person might be the future. Some get autismmaxxing and other get magical realms.
>>3450875Uh.. can you describe this imaginary game in any detail?
>>3450667Good. New Vegas was a bug infested shit tranny game riding off FO3's coattails. I got tired of it once I found the difficulty walls basically making the game a linear railroad, and over half the npcs were niggers and women disproportionally in positions of power and strength. Just garbage and anyone who likes it is lacking brain cells (which is why trannies love it.)
>>3450879It's not a realistic idea, why bother. Micro market and macro budget is a bad match. We will all be treated like the ~100 IQ average customer, as catering to that segment ensures max profits and enables to cut from production (quality). But at least the games will be popular and succesful :)
>>3450889>It's not a realistic idea, why bother.You bothered whining about it. I'll just assume it's the usual "dream game" shit from a dumb child
>>3450850Most of them that use this structure have passives with very small stat boosts.The entire thing is to have a lot of very small passive boosts to fill in between the major actually relevant skills in the tree.
>>3450879>>3450892Just for the sake of discussion let's go with something like the original vision for cyberpunk 2077.
>>3450844If a dev makes a new system you won't understand it. You won't know what is good and bad. You won't know what any stat reqs are, what kind of enemies you'll face or anything like that.When you start up a new game with new systems, you picking a favored enemy from a list of 20, you will have absolutely no idea how many of those are in the game or what kind of interactions you'll have. No matter how big brained you think you are.So when you pick>favored enemy: demonsand there's a grand total of 2 demons in the game, one of which you can only talk to. While say favored enemy: dragons not only has 5 great dragons, but also count drakes and dragon-humanoids, which also results in special interaction with a few dragon classed units.When you realize that your favored enemy: demons was a wet fart and you had absolutely no way of knowing it, do you jump for joy and think you're hardcore?
>>3450895For reference pic felated
>>3450847>so favouring it just leads to less and less complex rpgsYou only have to inform players of relevant information so they can make informed choices and not frontload decisions that have huge impact, especially late into the game, right at the beginning when the player has absolutely no idea what the impact is, what it means or anything like that.Because at that point you're not making an RPG. You're not actually making decisions, you're just blindly guessing.Doing this is not difficult, but it's a common oversight from devs.
>>3450897>advanced mechanics based on P&PP&P games have awful mechanics and rely on players to fill in the blanks or course correct to make up for it. Those systems are also made for P&P, not a videogame.
>>3450897In my mind this meant something like deus ex or deus ex: hr, but on the scale of a big city. We got the city but not the mechanics :/
>>3450717>asking players to make big game impacting decisions with no context for what it actually means earlyThis is mostly a WRPG problem where they're building directly off tabletop design philosophy where the player has to lock themselves into a class/build at the start of the game when they have no idea how the game will play. Where as the JRPG has the legacy of Dragon Quest III to build off.
>>3450900Don't get stuck up on that, the point is that there's mechanics for different kinds of characters.
>>3450896>favored enemyChoices like these, that are made before the game starts, could be moved to happen during the game without losing complexity
>>3450696Tim Cain also made The Outer Worlds so you can't really trust his opinion can you?
>>3450914Tim Cain is 1 person on a large team that made a game. People are also good and bad at different things.Do you think New Vegas was good because of 1 person?
>>3450914nuh uh if tim saved fallout from todd he would make game just like Fallout 1 and it would be the best game ever and finally make me happy
>>3450667This is what NV fans wanted, something to be offended by and bitch about, and Todd delivered so now they'll all watch the show like good little drones, just so they can all participate in the womanly bickering and gossiping. I havent watched anything on netflix in over a decade and don't plan to any time soon. Why have you?
>>3450919>ow they'll all watch the show like good little dronesDo you think most posters on this board watch streaming on Amazon? Let alone most shows? That's more of a normie thing.
There seems to be this naive thinking in gaming that newer = better. Because the tech was holding the devs back so much in the past it was actually true for long. But now we have reached a plateau where the limiting factor isn't really tech or resources, but the lack of creativity from the big studios and especially a lack of RISK TAKING which is ultimately the only way to know for sure if an idea is good or bad. The first try will often fail if it's something difficult to pull off.It's like thinking older books, movies, art, architechture etc. all are worse than the newer ones. And we know it doesn't work like that.It's obviously also a fallacy to think old = good. Good products are like pearls in an endless stream of mediocrity, but we won't get even get those if no risks are taken and it's all just recycling financially "safe" ideas and concepts. And frontier-pushing new stuff is guaranteed to make people mad as well, be it good or bad.
>>3450920I am 100% certain every fallout redditor here watched this show.>but I pirated it!!!!Doesn't matter, you are watching content for people who "netflix and chill". That's why this thread will hit bump limit, because this is really what fallout fans are all about.
>>3450922Not even half of the thread is talking about the show or fallout.And it's better for it.
>>3450922Retard, we've been talking about the Tim Cain image for most of these posts. Barely anyone cares about the show here you fucking mook.
>>3450917We're talking about talking deathclaws here, not fallout new vegas. Stay with it.
>>3450923>>3450924Doesn't look that way to me.
>>3450926>Doesn't look that way to me.-t Mr Magoo
>>3450926Define look. Does it actually mean guess to you?
>puts spoiler warning at the end
>>3450920Well I have plans with friends to watch it. When did watching something become such a big deal for you autists?
>>3450936This is a thread to talk about game design and how certain retards want to dumb down character creation because an idiot might be mad the developer didn't account for their special snowflake character. If you want to talk about your shitty TV shows, go to the relevant board.
>>3450919real
>>3450940Board topics overlap. Cry harder.
>>3450940You mad?
>>3450940>dumb down character creationWhat part of the discussion gave you this idea? It's about giving information to players to make informed decisions.Do you think you're more hardcore when you blindly pick things without knowing what any of it does? Because that's literally a low brow appeal akin to gambling.
>>3450951I know what it is because I can read the descriptions that the game invariably gives you for the stats if it's made by any kind of competent developer.
>>3450919The Dungeon Meshi anime is actually a really good adaptation that happens to be on Netflix.
>>3450953How nice of you to share that you didn't actually follow the discussion, but decided to get upset about something no one is talking about.
>>3450954Dungeon Meshi is terrible.
>>3450955Wrong. You say that the entire system needs avoid front loading and they have to slowly dole out mechanics and choices because I might be a simpleton who wants to make a character that the game may not support, which then forces me to go at the LCD's pace and grow bored. I say just fucking tell the player then, through a little thing called the UI, what shit does.
>>3450953Kek you're a retard
>>3450960I accept you're concession.
>>3450951>It's about giving information to players to make informed decisionsThis is retarded rhetoric point and you know it. While videogames obviously yet incapable of tailoring experience for the personal choices, what presented in that tim cain shitpost doesn't help alleviate the issue whatsoever, as you need to disclose way too fucking much to the point you will have to spoil the experience entirely for so called informed decision to be made.
>>3450678The biggest question is how did Todd get away with including all of the disturbing dialogue between Maggie and Billy? And if that dialogue isn't in the show I refuse to watch btw
>>3450965>doesn't help alleviate the issue whatsoeverIt does help to offer a perspective on the issue, so that devs know to be mindful of it. It does not need to be taken to the extreme as a rule to follow
>>3450737>We're here to argue, not to understand.This should be the site's motto.
>>3450959>WrongStrange that it doesn't apply to what you said here >>3450953 then. Like the example here >>3450896 or any other of the posts ITT that what you think it's about.Maybe stop headcanoning stuff and actually read what people type. But we both know you won't and will instead shitpost. So hey, you do you and I'll follow your example then of not reading your posts. After all, why type something someone won't read.Naturally this response will upset you because I don't coddle you, which makes you more likely to shitpost. But hey, it is what it is. I don't coddle people even if they need it like you.
>>3450965>This is retarded rhetoric point and you know itThe only thing retarded here is you. Unfortunately, you don't know it.If you can't design a game that allows players to make informed decisions and actually roleplay, then don't make RPGs.You don't have to make a system that requires players to rank up a melee stat to use certain ranged weapons. Meaning you don't have to design a system that needs a melee skill to carry certain ranges weapons. Or you recontextualize and design what that melee skill is into something that makes the connection to ranged weapons better to allow for more thoughtful stat distribution beyond just "fuck, I need to dump some points into the melee stat to carry a minigun" and nothing else.Yes amazingly, the designer has the control of the game's design.What is more interesting to you>hm, do i want to upgrade x or y, so I can do z better? or do I want to focus more on a and b, so I can make a combo with c and d?or>well i guess i'll upgrade stat x i guess. not sure what it allows me to do down the line, if anythingSince you're against the points we're making, I'm assuming the latter. Since you prefer to upgrade things blindly with no clue what it is you're upgrading or doing.
>>3450994So how would i know if game has bias for ranged over melee and picking melee character is essentially a trap option, it should be spelled out.Oh and it should also be spelled out that evil dialogue options had 1/4 of the attention and budget of good ones so there is no reason to roleplay as evil character.Itemization need to be directly mentioned on the box as well, i don't want to play game that doesn't properly support greathammers and loads itself with triple amount of faggy rapiers instead.I do need racial breakdown readily available during character creation too, i need to know how many knifeears are present in the game as it will drastically impact my play experience and tremendously help with making informed decision over my build choices.
AAAAAAH THE GUIDE DOESN'T COVER THIS PART OF THE GAME, I AM LITERALLY INCAPABLE OF PROGRESSING ON MY OWN, HELP ME INFORMED DECISION MAN!For real though some game information could be communicated more directly, but on the other hand there's a fuzzy line between being properly informed and having the game hold your hand.For an example lets look at games with some rng: in many roguelikes you will never completely know in advance what weapons or other gear you "should" specialize in if you want to optimize your run, since you might end up having notably better options for large parts of the run than the one you picked/wanted in the beginning. A good game will allow you to play around that, a bad one punishes you for bad rng.
>>3451029>roguelikesDifferent approach with quick, disposable playthroughs, compared to RPGs, where one might define their characters more, and doesn't want to change it for the sake of optimal numbersOpinions probably differ depending on if one prefers to play with numbers instead of roles in a roleplaying game.
>>3451022>So how would i know if game has bias for ranged over melee and picking melee character is essentially a trap option, it should be spelled out.If it's intentionally designed that way it should. But more likely it's a design fuckup.If you present options as equally viable, but they're not, they shouldn't be presented as equally viable.If you disagree you're claiming the example made about favored enemy here >>3450896 to be good design, for no good reason.>Oh and it should also be spelled out that evil dialogue options had 1/4 of the attention and budget of good ones so there is no reason to roleplay as evil character.It also should or be communicated somehow. Otherwise you directly undermine the decisions players make.But 99% when that happens it's an oversight, not intentional.Or you ensure to design around it so this scenario doesn't happen.>Itemization need to be directly mentioned on the box as well,Now you're being retarded and missing the point entirely while having no point of your own.You're under the delusion the game is more hardcore for being poorly designed and disallowing you from roleplaying and informed decisionmaking (i.e. think).What you actively want is more casual and dumbed down. You don't want to make infomed decisions. You just want to push random buttons and hope for the best.But your entire post is you intentionally missing the point (at least I hope so) in a very dumb attempt to try and undermine the point made.Or tl;dr you're just shitposting.
>>3450667Learn English you fucking parasite. Reading that Twitter post gives human beings tension headaches. Not everyone is a disgusting, rot-brained mantis spawn.
>>3451029>having the game hold your hand.It's not handholding. The fact that some of you perceive it as such stems from you having a bias where you inherently think that less information is more hardcore.If there are more things to consider, more things to think about, more variables then how exactly is that less hardcore?What some of you suggest as "better" requires no effort or thought. It's discovering that you got fucked over for something you did during character creation or something 20 hours down the line.To make matters worse, you can't act on that information either, unless you restart the game.But a lot of these issues just stem for poorly designed games or devs falling victim to things like the curse of knowledge bias, where things they know because they designed it is forgotten to be communicated to players.If you want to design your game around trial and error or more run based, then the loop needs to be shorter.If you make a bad team lineup, skill setup or something in a roguelite you learn that really fucking fast and get reset to the beginning. Those types of games are built around short failiure loops.Meanwhile in an RPG if you fuck over someone's roleplaying assumptions 20 hours down the line because of poor design or poor communication on your part as a designer, that's a problem. Especially since it wasn't a fault on the players part.
>>3451053>Meanwhile in an RPG if you fuck over someone's roleplaying assumptions 20 hours down the line because of poor design or poor communication on your part as a designer, that's a problem. Especially since it wasn't a fault on the players part.Which games do this? Does difficulty adjustment solve it in that game / those games?
>>3450717Then he's a retard. You're more likely to get emergent gameplay, aka "fun" when you have more components in a system (so long as the world allows you to use those components). If you simplify everything to where tool X, Y, and Z can be used interchangeably in situation A, B, and C, then there's no meaningful difference and you might as well watch a movie.
>>3450751They were popular and successful, but that doesn't mean they were good. Corona and Coors Light are also popular, but they're not good. Marvel movies are popular (were) but they're not good.
>>3451092Kek how the fuck do you guys keep misunderstanding this shit, amazing
>>3450847>>3450864>>3450875Have you considered skipping the video game aspect of it and playing TTRPGs?
>>3451097Nah, the one who's misunderstanding it is you. You can harp on and on about >muh context but the point is, he's arguing for the casualization of video game RPGs because that sells better because the average person is a drooling retard. This makes a game successful. What makes a game fun is almost always emergent gameplay, and in order to have emergent gameplay, you need a complex and maybe even somewhat obtuse system.
>>3451101You're fucked in the head, mate
>>3451106Nah you're an idjit.
>>3450678>cunnyseourI hope one day you build up enough courage to finally kys
Fallout 3 is the only well written Fallout to be honest.
When are we getting the Starfield show?
>>3451098Yes and I do/have played them. The problem with ttrpg's however is, especially when you get older, scheduling for multiple people. Game nights are fun when we can make them happen no doubt. And while ttrpgs are obviously superior in their social aspect and flexibility, crpgs can offer simulation/calculation of complex things that's not doable or fun on the tabletop which brings us back to crpgs' actual unparralleled strenght: handling complex systems. It's absolutely fucking retarded that vidya "rpgs" have devolved and simplified when going the other way is exactly the one thing they would be best suited for. Emergent gameplay spawning from complex systems is something vidya games can do particularily well since it can often just run under the hood, while the same emergence on the tabletop has to come from much simpler systems. In other words you could do cool shit in crpgs that you can't in ttrpgs...but whatever, let's just be happy with the slop we're dispensed and get excited for the next mediocre product recycling the same streamlined bullshit again, hoping for anything better is just wrong somehow I guess.We were on a good trajectory for a while.
>>3451132What's up with Fallout threads and lengthy dunning kruger posts?
>>3451138>You're stupid for hoping for better thingsThe absolute state of this board
>>3451149>hoping for better thingsA nice way of saying whining lol, gonna use that
>>3451153Todd thanks you for your unquestioning support.Pls buy starfield (again).
>>3451138There are certain stereotypes that follow certain media. Everyone knows Sonic fans are autists, etc. My primary experience with Fallout fans are people that are only like 5 IQ points higher than average churning out half-considered walls of text to retroactively justify their animal emotion responses to things they like or dislike without actually understanding the topical material or being able to model their opponent as a separate, discreet consciousness with its own likes and dislikes derived from formative experiences they don't share. Just scroll up and look how many absolute declaratives are made that boil down to "I like it" or "I dislike it" once you peel away invective, hyperbole, and pejorative.There's no give or take on either side. No attempt to understand. No attempt to model the object of discussion from multiple perspectives and understand a more complete rendering of what people come to the series for, and subsequently how disingenuous or subversive depictions of it can ruin a thing.It's actually what's kept me out of Fallout for the most part. A setting like that begs discussion, but then I look at what that discussion looks like and don't want to embed myself in it.
>>3450778Good thing PoE has none of those passives. Now why don't you use a real example?
>>3451166Is this a bot?
>>3451168This guys doesn't actually like or understand RPGs. That's why he never uses direct examples from many games, but rather what he thinks the games are like based on some other game that is similar.
>>3451128Starfield: The Show intro scene:>Bethesda Games Studio>Presents>STARFIELD title appears on the screen>fade to black>fade in>"Hey you, you're finally awake">tfw you just paid for skyrim again
>>3451169A wall of text offering nothing to the discussion? It's likely.
>>3451169>>3451182beep boop faggots, thanks for proving my point
>>3451185If you actually bothered to even read the thread you might notice the discussion hasn't been about fallout for a while.Talk about dunning-kruger
>>3451166Dude, you described all discussion on this board, not just fo fanboys. And fanbase kept you from a game?Come on now
>>3451185Wait, I thought you were doing a bit, so I wanted to play along.
>>3451193NTA but fallout's atrocious fanbase definitely made me leave the series behind. I won't be revisting it ever again.
>>3451203?? How do they affect you playing a game, is this some autism thing
>>3451203...it's a single player game series (76 lmao), why would you need to interact with "the fanbase" in any way?
To all you faggots arguing about game design, just understand that the games these hacks are churning out today are objectively inferior to the games decades ago. Whatever they're telling you to do, do the opposite and you'll probably make an actual great game.
>>3451207why would I want to replay a game if the people obsessed with it are retarded and annoying? I don't want to be like them. there are plenty of games that get played here where discussion isn't full of retards samefagging and spamming, posting reddit memes, and using wiki lore as a proxy to go on /pol/ rants, and I'd choose to play any of those over getting involved with Fallout again.
>>3451291You can always tell the quality of a game by the quality of discussion from its advocates.
>>3451288Ah yes, the George Costanza school of design.
>>3451291>reddit memes>/pol/ rantsbait or schizowhatever, who above the age of 10 seriously thinks of himself as a fan or an "adherent" of a fucking video gamebetter yet, who cares what people like that say
>>3451311This seems to have made you super asshurt. Don't like being held accountable for your stupid behavior?
>>3450696Didn't Tim Cain think the arroyo temple was a good idea?
>>3451315I think most fallout games are shit so even on your schizo ramble standards you missed the mark
>>3451342please stop responding, he just wants to make the thread about himself. like who really thinks about other people constantly when playing a video game.
>>3451291.. you don't have to interact with them, and you don't become one of them by playing the game. They're completely irrelevant, might as well not existOr is being part of a fanbase an important part of enjoying a game for you?I find it bizarre, but to each their own. Personally I never even thought about fanbases
>>3451342>I think most fallout games are shitThe problem is that that fallout tards do, much like bethestards, is say "only X game is good" but religiously play all the games anyways. No one who has solely played fallout 1 is discussing the series 24/7, there just isn't anything substantial to discuss there, and the more shit a fallout game is the more there is to discuss, so by playing fallout 1 you are being groomed to give todd howard your entire wallet.
>>3451348yeah he just seems starved for attention
>>3450667make FOT canon again. BOS best warriors.
>>3450726TLDR: Cain is the antichrist and probably fully retarded.
>>3451380He just has really bad taste, like who thinks men are more sexually attractive than women? Sense issue.
>>3450667based todd
>>3451401He really is OUR HERO.
>>3450697
>>3450789postal was good
>>3450667Based Godd Howard dabbing on NVtrannies
This is so funny.
>>3451528NV doesn't let you pick your pronouns, Starfield does.
>>3450672But trannies are all about 3 and 4 being the best fallout games. This makes perfect sense.
>>3450667They did not literally do that, because the series does not take place in 2277, but 2296. Please learn some media literacy
they didnt nuke new vegas, its shown intact for the next season.They nuked the ncrbecause fuck ncr fags
>>3451698Where does he say the series takes place in 2277?
>>3451700>welcome to the harsh post-nuclear world of fallout>here's a stable good guy democracy!!Of all the dumb shit in FO2, NCR was the dumbest
>>3451385>like who thinks men are more sexually attractive than women?Perhaps not sexually, but picrel thought men were more aesthetically pleasing. And honestly, I kinda agree with him. Not gay btw.
>>3451703The cool thing about the NCR is that you see their founder in Fallout 1, when thry were a single town, by Fallout 2 they control most of California, and by Fallout NV they control most of the western United States. They grow in a way that seems appropriate and realistic within the setting.
>>3452254In that way it's cool. It makes sense, it's reasonable. There's ideas to explore there, too.For me it clashes with what I loved about FO1 and to some extent FO3, the atmosphere of surviving in an unsafe, dangerous ruined world, which made everything seem more important, vital even, from water to the Brotherhood of Steel.In Fallout 2 people are doing great in their Vault cities, farms, republics and goddamn casinos dispensing movie references. There's no need for knights in shining armor hoarding technology. Water chip is a joke, and so on.
>>3451700>its shown intactIt's shown as a ghost city. After all, why have faction when you're just better off without them?
>>3451528>NVtranniesTodd is the one who wrote the BoS tranny into the tv series, get your fact straight.
>>3452254>and by Fallout NV they control most of the western United States
>>3451703>>here's a stable good guy democracy!!Eh, the time it takes for the democracy to develop is on the short side, but the real problem is how NCR originated.>A bunch of dumb fuck hicks out in the middle of nowhere led by a poo and his daughter manage to create a state>Instead of the Khans mounting their head on pikes and being the creators of stateRemember lads, in a post-apocalyptic scenario, it's Tyrone and his gangbangers and Cletus and his militia that'll run shit. The effeminate liberal urbanoids will be hunted and eaten.
>>3452423Sounds like someone's mad about the point in any state's development when the established citybuilders inevitably outproduce and outnumber the hedonist nomadic raiders
>caring about a show for normies and not for people that give a shit about fallout
>>3450896I have one and it was only very recently addressed, the Assassin class in Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous. In theory, this should be a good class, it's basically a rogue with extra stuff for sneak attacks, instant kills, and coating your weapon in poison for a lethal strike. Sounds cool, right?SLIGHT problem, the game is like 90% demons. Demons are immune to poison making this class utterly worthless. They eventually fixed this with a mythic ability that makes poisons ignore resistances and immunities...2 years into the game's life.
>>3450900>P&P games have awful mechanics and rely on players to fill in the blanks or course correct to make up for it.This is a problem with tabletop adaptations in general. Making everything a dice roll in vidya ignores that irl, if you fuck up a dice roll, your DM can throw you a mulligan. He can make something out of the ordinary happen, he can just decide "no, you can't succeed even with a nat 20 because it's a mental resistance check in a room full of psychics all trained on you, what did you THINK was gonna happen?".
>>3451291>why would I want to replay a game if the people obsessed with it are retarded and annoying?Because it's not a multiplayer game, I don't need to interact with a community in order to play it.
>>3451173>That's why he never uses direct examples from many gamesExcept I literally did. PoE has those minor types of passives and many other non RPGs do too, like >>3450894 or more recently FF7R.The thing is, these kind of skill trees are less common in proper RPGs (which PoE isn't anyway).Only reason it was brought up was because it's in the Tim Cain image >>3450697 and Tim used that as an example of poor design for his point.When it comes to examples for people not too familiar with game, system or progression design it's better to focus on ones that are clear cut and easily understood. People on this board already have a hard time wrapping their heads around basic design concepts, it makes no sense to overcomplicate things.
>>34506671, 2, and NV are canon. Anything by Bethesda Is poorly written fan fiction.
>>3451311>who above the age of 10 seriously thinks of himself as a fan or an "adherent" of a fucking video gameI am old enough to realize that fuck you double niggers and I can be a fan of whatever the fuck I want, even if it's fucking Twilight. I have nothing to prove to anybody, I am hundred percent sure of myself and I don't have to do shit according to some faggots that are too insecure to like something because "WHAT OTHERS WILL THINK", fuck other people, I will play vidya till I die.
>>3450835>His point isn't that bad builds shouldn't exist or that all builds should be viable.That's actually something he explicitly said was a design objective during Fallout development.
>>3452491You explicitly used an example of a type of passive that PoE doesn't have, critical damage nodes and gear in that game are very impactful. You don't seem to have familiarity with that game in particular but are making sweeping statements about design that you personally think is bad. This is why I dislike people who claim they know good design and want to make rules or solutions for all games. Unification is shit.
>>3452506Liking video games doesn't make you a fan. A fan is someone who gets involved in a thing to the point where the just instabuy or adopt anything with that particular label regardless of their feelings on the particular product. Fanaticism is irrational.
>>3450727>Which makes you stupid.8==D (_o_)
>>3450667did u morons even play the game? NCR stretches all the way from cali its not situated in just vegas.
>>3452537I think it's more that we haven't watched the show because lol vidya show.
>>3452399>producer>writing anything
>>3452393no it isn't you lying fucking retard. It looks like New Vegas.You literally have no clue at that distance.You people are fucking insane liars always making up shit l
>>3452254god damn you ncr faggots are something else
>>3452525fan means enthusiast esl, thats how the word has entered the lexicon.It doesn't mean literally a fanatic you tard baby.We aren't talking about fans of boy bands that want to wear their faces.
>>3452616Why so angry little man, did someone insult your corporate overlords?You may want to pay attention to the ending credits because the strip is shown from street level.
>>3452525fan means enthusiast esl, thats how the word has entered the lexicon.It doesn't mean literally a fanatic you tard baby.We aren't talking about fans of boy bands that want to wear their faces.>>3451203Its definitely true, the fanbase attracts a special kinda poltard adjacent like edgy internet anarchists, fascists and commie-fascists that think the point of the games is 4d political grand strategy and infinite ad nauseam off topic politic rants and baiting. Its definitely possible to enjoy Fallout while completely ignoring the tard fanbase.
>>3452616Here, just for you.
>>3452629the credits is not the final scene we see in the show you retarded imbecile. Its just some artistic images shown after every episode.We see an intact new vegas at the end of the show, with the Lucky 38 still in good condition.You are just making shit up to get offended about like a gossiping woman.
>>3452624>>3452629tranny, you havent watched the show you are just grabbing screenshots from elsewhere. Theres no people in any of the end credits they are just cartoon backdrops.If thats why you think its a "ghost town" you are fucking stupid
>>3452616>>3452616>You literally have no clue at that distance.>We see an intact new vegas at the end of the showWhich one is it? Close enough to see or too far to have a clue?>Its just some artistic images shown after every episode.Interesting "artistic" choice to show a shot down NCR vertibird and a dead deathclaw in the strip. And a hole in the wall.>You are just making shit upYou seem to be an expert in that area, so I'll leave it to you.>3452634Try harder.
>>3452639I was 100% right you are just low iq>thinks the fucking abstract arty credit scene showing various backdrops is actually images from the next season>doesn't see people and concludes that its a ghost town.You are a complete fucking moron. Theres a scene at the end where you literally SEE Vegas from a far distance and it looks like it does in the game.Just stop you mentally ill fucking dumb cunt.
>be a retard>be mentally disabled>think the silhouetted end credits are actually scenes depicting an empty vegas
>>3452640>Theres a scene at the end where you literally SEE Vegas from a far distance and it looks like it does in the game.No, it doesn't. Why lie?
>>3452642how does that not look like New Vegas, lying retard anon?
>>3452642>posts a image of New Vegas>this doesn't look like New Vegasyou are mentally disabled
>>3452645Where is the Camp McCarran?Where is the monorail?Where are the sharecropper farms?All of those should be easily seen.
>>3452647on the other side dumbass.You are so hilariously stupid. Just quit you completely humiliated yourself
>>3452649Can you stop acting like a complete retard just once?You can see the sun, which is shown rising just a couple of seconds before that shot.But sure, let's pretend for a second that in this Amazon Fallout universe the sun actually is going the other way around and this is supposed to be the north of Vegas. Where is westside supposed to be in that shot?
>>3452652look anon you are the idiot here. Every single post you have made has been stupid.You are the retard, you have a low iq and a personality disorderIts the god damn west of New vegas you moronic fuck. Hank is coming from the west.Cropper farm is on the east side and theres a large building to the south.You have the spatial awareness of a literal retard, you shouldnt be posting such opinionated shit on the internet when you are this stupid and unable to think properly.
>>3452655>Its the god damn west of New vegas you moronic fuck. Hank is coming from the west.But I thought you said that McCarran was on the OTHER side? Shouldn't this be either north or east if that was the case?
>>3452658i didnt say anything about macarren being on the other side are you mentally ok?You are grasping at straws here retard, do you know which way the sun sets? north from south
>>3452647>>3452652>>3452658you are why this site needs a "this person is too stupid to post" report button
>>3452660>i didnt say anything about macarren being on the other side are you mentally ok?Are you?>>3452649>on the other side dumbass.But I'm willing to give you an other chance at answering this question. Where is McCarran?
>>3452666Oh you are giving chances now? how about you go fuck your self you inbred lying posYou cant see maccaren retard because its obscured by Vegas itself
>>3452676So the New Vegas show is different from the one in the game? Cool, you finally admitted it.
>>3452647>>3452652>>3452658>>3452666this is peak dumbass posting. Are you even a fan of Fallout or New Vegas?Baffling why you are doing this to just feel offended.
>>3452682...do you realise in that tiny brain of yours that New Vegas isn't accurate in game? Its not realistic. The tv show image is more what Vegas should look like.
>>3452682When did the anon say anything like that? you are mentally disabled and claiming things arent shown, that are on the other side of the image.
>>3452629>>3452639>>3452642>>3452647>>3452652>>3452658>>3452666>>3452682lying retard
>nv fag that hasnt even played the game and can't visualise things in his head> "it doesn't look exactly like the video game!"No shit sherlock, very speshul faggot
>>3452652>>3452658sun rises in the east you low iq idiot and Hank is coming from the west.Use your brain.
disgusting, the /tv/tards have entered the thread now. hiding.
>>3452711>sun rises in the eastCorrect, and it's shown to the right of Vegas.>Hank is coming from the westThe only road left is the one through the Mojave Outpost in the south west, so he's approaching Vegas from the south.Only reasonable conclusion: you're looking at the south side of Vegas from a certain elevation (likely Black Mountain).
>>3450667If Lucy is 18-20 years old that means she was born about 2277. Since she was a kid with memories of Shady Sands. The show is set in 2296. Therefore Shady Sands was nuked sometime after 2281, after New Vegas.NCR is canonically over and it happened after New Vegas.
>>3452521>You explicitly used an example of a type of passive that PoE doesn't have???? poe is filled with minor passive boosts in between bigger skills, it is padding
>>3452697I played New Vegas and I'm pretty sure the city hadn't been nuked before the game started.
>>3452914House shot down all the nukes.
>giving even a sliver of a fuck about the fallout narrative, canon or anything like that when neither the ones making the show or bethesda themselves careNONE of these people care or do their research. Bethesda started by retconning and ignoring a fuckton of things already established in F1&2.If they don't care, why the fuck should you? What's """canon""" to them now they'll retcon in the next mobile game or whatever.
>>3452918Not canon.
>>3452920>Bethesda started by retconning and ignoring a fuckton of things already established in F1&2.Such as?
>>3452928>never played earlier falloutsYou should've just said so, when even super obvious stuff like Jet, Ghouls and Super Mutants is unknown to you. People like you is why these people don't give a fuck about consistency or canon. Most players are just utterly clueless.
>>3452932Whatever nerd, keep seething about nothing
>>3452933>says i dont care and says why people shouldn't care>"noooo keep seething because you care too much"You got told and now you got triggered, fucking lol
>>3452937>you never played the games!!False>you need to care about JET!!!lmao False
>>3452940>backpedals and goes into full-blown denial mode when told he doesn't know all the things beth retconned when they made f3fucking lol, again peoplel like you are why beth doesn't care and why no one should care about beth's canon
>>3452946Okay, well keep caring about jet then
>>3452951Maybe stop caring about being wrong so much and that emotional asspain you're experiencing will start to be less frequent.
>>3452962Wrong about what?
Govermint > NCR
>>3450700So? Fallout 4 is canon, that doesn't mean I should give a fuck about it.
I find it ironic that Fallout Prime is filmed in New York, which has a major city only hinted at the lore. But they set it in LA seemingly solely to move production there once they got the Californian tax credits.All the aesthetics and even the monsters are from Fallout 4, which is a little bit further north. Or from Fallout 3 which is a little bit south.So they shit on 3 games solely to put Bethesda’s stamp on California and get those tax credits.
>>3453040They're exclusively doing this for money and nothing else. What did you expect? Corporations see shows like Witcher 3, Last of Us and such doing well and smell the money.
>>3452378That would just be dumb in a different way. It's impossible for the frontier to remain a frontier. People are going to build a civilization. It's what happened to the actual American wild west.I also feel like the implication that your character left a permanent impact on the world was an important part of Fallout 1. You can't have that if the world isn't allowed to progress. If you did all the sidequests in Shady Sands, then the NCR existing is YOUR fault, and that's diminished if you couldn't see it in the later games.
>>3453040i think its because they intended or still intend to set in the east coast too.One thing thats fucking weird, The BoS are notified by the Commonwealth that Wilzig the Enclave guy escaped.Now that makes you naturally assume he escaped from the east coast.
>>3452434He's mad because the established citybuilders are brown.
>>3452434I mean, I am a little miffed about that, ngl.
>>3453047Fallout should have never progressed after 1. After the Masters army was defeated. The people should have gone back to blowing bubbles and raping chickens.Fallout 2 is literally fan fiction by someone trying to write "the future" of a setting. They accidentally wrote the most obnoxious mary sue faction ever, and created an insufferably immature fanbase who believe it can never fail.Bethesda stepped up and finally put a bullet in the abomination.
>>3452629>NCR vertibird>not pre-war, not Enclave, but NCRSeems to me like they're doing okay.
If anyone doubts bethesda's butt hurt intentions, just look what they did to Morrowind getting destroyed by the ministry of truth and invaded by slaves (argonians, aka niggers). It's all about destroying what we love.
>>3453055Is Emil, the guy sucks at writing
>>3453053>crashed NCR vertibird on the strip>only vertibird they could spare in NV the president's for his speechKimballsisters...
>>3453052>Fallout should have never progressed after 1. After the Masters army was defeated. The people should have gone back to blowing bubbles and raping chickens.Yes, that's exactly what would have been dumb. That's what Fallout (partially) avoided, by setting the later games later in time, and showing the world developing.Partially, because especially in the 3D Fallout games there are still unlooted ruins, and skeletons from the great war just left lying around less than a hundred meters from where people have lived for a generation.
>>3453055That was le ebin drugsman attempt at making sure that nobody went back and changed "his" stuff.
>>3453057>crashed>clearly structurally intactFor comparison, here's what a V-22 Osprey looks like after a crash landing into water. Note the missing wing, and the torn fuselage.
>>3453058bethesda fallouts are just stupid though, they dont understand how things decay.Prewar skeletons shouldnt exist on the surface.The show at least improved on this showing old skeletons fossilised and mummified like Pompeii. While fresh skeletons are just bones.Unlooted ruins is perfectly fine in the lore, problem with beth games is they fail to capture the true scale of the wasteland.The reason theres so many unlooted ruins is actually they are enormous distances apart.Its literally an almost inexhaustible wasteland of junk that is mostly empty of human life.
>>3453060>comparing real world US ability to fuck up vs Enclave engineeringNGMIVertibirds are built different, simple as.
>>3453065i remember getting in an argument with some boomer schizo over fallout vertsHe hilariously argued they shouldnt be able to fly because computing isnt good enough. But they have super computers in Fallout.He then went on they are too big for the vert, I replied they have ones the size of footballs in robots.
>>3453063>Unlooted ruinsIt's a video game, consider how fun it would be to explore looted ruins, and cease your nerdy low effort bitching about realism
>>3453068what? you might want to learn to read you idiot.
Fallout discussion attracts so many brainlets its gives me depression
>>3453058No it wouldn't be dumb. It would establish a consistent setting. Anyway the idea that the world HAS to get better in 200 years is completely arbitrary. Thats not how things have worked in history at all.Rebuild fags I don't know they just ain't right.Like they say stupid stuff like why aren't people painting and repairing things in a ruined city overrun by raiders mutants and ghouls.Why are people that don't give a shit about anything but getting high or finding something to eat not sweeping etc.
>>3453070retarded games for retarded people
>>3453069>lore and scaleNah fuck you and all realism fags and their endless brainless bitching.>why unlooted ruins?>why dirty ruins?>why no new thriving civilization?>why stimpak heal bullet wound??Like the aim is to make the games more boring and shitty to play
>>3453070Well, it got you to come here so...
>>3453093im not complaining about unlooted ruins my illiterate friend The other guy was.
>>3453095but i'm a galaxy brain lore sage.
>>3453096You don't have to explain it with bullshit either, just leads to more pointless arguing
>>3453098i was pointing out the reason the misconception Fallout, for example Fo4, has a lot of unlooted ruins near people. Is the scale.No i disagree i want realistic to scale games that match the lore. I want locations with stuff to discover.
>Goodsprings
>this stupid fucking show killed any Fallout related discussion>even for total conversion modsTodd literally killed Fallout with this shit show, fuck you Todd.
>>3450717older rpgs were funny though cus you would go in blind and make a complete shit build and get molested. This would then give you the sense of actual experience when you learned the game mechanics and what useless stats/skills to avoid. It was a fun experience for me, I feel like its a little lost in games that are too lenient on the players shitty decisions. I legit couldn't beat Irenicus with my first complete mongoloid 13 Dex assassin. Cus I had no idea what I was doing. It really made it more enjoyable to figure out what a retard I had been.
>>3453117>picFucking metal. No wonder ruskies are producing the best Fallout content out there.
Fallout for me is 1, 2 and New Vegas. Everything else is just a spin-off lackluster product.They can scream canon all they want, they can't control what I deem to be sensible and what I deem nonsense.
>>3453052>Bethesda stepped up and finally put a bullet in the abomination.Then they proceeded to attach strings to it and puppeteer the lifeless husk to do silly dances with it.
>>3453183It's fine if your time isn't valuable and can afford playing multiple times, but devs should assume that all players don't want to waste their time on suboptimal experiences
>>3453183Wasting 30 minutes or 1 hour can be fine. But when we're talking that you could be wasting 10, 20 or more hours it's no longer okay.
>>3453311>if your time isn't valuableYou're already wasting your time if you're playing video games. But I'll admit treating the players like retarded toddlers seems to be the financially savvy move these days. Becoming more widespread and popular unironically made games worse since they cater to mouth breathers now as they're easier to milk for their money with low investment and effort.
>>3453490>hmm i hate video games and post on video games im so cleverGames are less of a waste of time than tv
>>3453207Fallout, by definition, is nonsense. if anything, 3 and 4 are more blunt.
Crisis adverted.
>>3450667I'm not a Fallout fan, I'm a New Vegas fan.
>>3453490>wasting your time playing video gamePeople pay for entertainment and enjoyment, games is just one of the many forms.Calling streamlining dumbing down is a funny cope, when it likely pleases people who have more demanding shit going on in their life than video games. Then on the opposite side we have neets where a game is the only thing providing some challenge and sense of accomplishment in their life. And funnily enough, games are a safe, no-risk pattern recognition test designed to be completed by anyone enjoying it enough to invest their time in them.
>>3453907games are actually healthy they stop you going senile with oldtimers and dementiathats why all the people that just talk shit about them and never play em become retarded over time
>>3453909>games are actually healthy they stop you going senile with oldtimers and dementiaYou can replace games here with great many things and get better results lol
>>3453916Few things are as effective as games when it comes to keeping your mind sharp and developing for the time investment. In moderation, of course. Pretty much everything is bad in excess. It also needs to be the right games and not some AFK phone game.
>>3453926>Few things are as effective as gamesHard to believe, but games don't require effort, skills or smarts, so they can be a good option for disabled people.
>>3452423True thats why Mongolia is the sole world superpower and how the comanche destroyed the United States
>>3453916games are more effective, they train your motor skills and work your brain
>>3453930games require skill, intelligence and problem solving. Even some math and reading if you play hard games, but you wouldnt know about that :)
>>3453799Thank you Emil, I can always rely on you to gaslight everything all right.
>>3453961More effective than what?
>>3450672Todd Howard is literally an executive producer. The creators/writers didn't play shit. They asked him. Which is why NV is literally and figuratively in ruins.He's still butthurt that Obsidian made the better Fallout game.
>>3450703Take a guess if they're going to look at the video game version of NV or the tv version, for all future game references.Hint: It's not going to be the game version.It's important to understand what is and isn't canon, not because we're obsessed nerds that need to know all the events, but so we understand what to expect.And what we should expect, is that Bethesda doesn't give a fuck about 1/2/NV.
>>3453978It's more likely they sent him the script, he skimmed over it and then said ok.
>>3453963>Even some math and reading if you play hard gamesYou mean those edutainment games?
>>3453984>he actually thinks bethesda would revisit new vegas
>>3453986More like he was answering question about how to use characters?>hey, we want to write about California>use the NCR>but we don't want to be stuck writing about all that stuff>so write that the NCR gets nuked, I'll email you some stuff
>>3453990Which part of what I said, gave you that idea? I literally said that they're not going to use the video game version, in any future references.It's the NV of the tv show, from now on.Not that they're going to make a NV2, but there's references to House and Roco-Co in 76. So yes, they'll still reference the west coast. Only it's no longer the west coast of the games.I expect /tv/ and /v/ to be retarded, but I never realized that /vrpg/ is truly just as retarded as them.
>>3453989playing rpgs causes you to do math and reading without even realising it
>>3453991That's really not how that stuff goes.At BEST they were in a zoom call for 30-60min once of twice for the entire production and half that meeting time was unproductive. Some broad stroke topics were dicussed but not details. That's how you get stuff like rocket boost for power armor which isn't a thing in any Fallout game.More realistically he just got sent a script he skimmed over.
>>3453978you didnt like his nasa game, so you pay the price.
>>3453994What makes you think anyone should care about Bethesda lore? Bethesda themselves don't care.
>>3453995Like many things in life
>>3454003so why did the nma fags melt down when emil shitposted just now lmfaoyou do care
>>3454007>you do careBased on what? Me telling you there's no reason to care? I never cared about Fallout lore since that wasn't even something I played the games for and once F3 was released any lore consistency was thrown out the window.I even like Fallout Tactics, which was never "canon".But if it makes you happy, then feel free to pretend everyone is slamming their fists and frothing at the mouth about Bethesda and the TV show.
>>3454020they are though? lol. I dont care either i hate bethesda, thats why im laughing at everyone seething at them while claiming they arent
>>3454022>everyone but me is mad!>but the only one sperging out and accusing people of being mad is me???Uh huh, whatever you say.
>>3450914The Outer Worlds was a good game they half-assed midway trough development once Microsoft decided to put it on gamepassNo point in creating anything but slop for Gamepas/Netflix/Prime subscribers, these companies hired legit psychologists and statisticians to figure out what content was the best and the result was to NOT make high quality content, you have more retention when making something that is as bad as possible yet not bad enough to motivate the user to actually quitThe mechanism why that is is interesting but too long to explain in a 4chan reply
>>3454162Makes perfect sense. Thanks, schizo anon.
>>3454162>these companies hired legit psychologistsYou do realize most companies use data and consultants to drive their decisions, right?Any studio that isn't self-owned and self-funded (no publisher/investor) goes through this.
>>3453049It's America. Of course they are all mystery meat brown.
>>3452920>F1&2.What are you even talking about? Fallout started at 3.
The Courier: "When you say, 'slower death for the Mojave,' you mean they're spreading out from the Divide."Ulysses: "Death'll come from below. In the Divide, need to watch the sky and ground... Mojave'll be easy prey for them. They'll start emerging throughout the Mojave in time, might be years. Probably less. They breed fast, hunt in groups, more than enough to bring down the strongest in the Mojave. Once they draw blood... Seen them tear apart Deathclaws... Deathclaw might get some, but the rest will swarm it, tear it apart, like Denver hounds."
>>3454183>Fallout ended after 1corrected it for you
>>3454217>bethesda's PA design is inherently flawedFinally Todd admits it.
>>3454217Utterly retarded "flaw" and why are they just standing there like retards.
>>3453907>Calling streamlining dumbing down is a funny cope, when it likely pleases people who have more demanding shit going on in their life than video games.People who are actually skilled and competent in one part of their life (career) are statisticially very likely to be skilled and competent in other aspects of their life as well. They're the kind of people who respond positively to challenges in things they are interested in.Dumbing down and streamlining does not cater to these people.Dumbing down and streamlining caters to mouthbreathers and midwits who actually find any complexity in a game to be too challenging and exhausting and just want to turn what little brain activity they have off while playing the newest easy-to-digest fotm slop, often combined with substances like weed or alcohol, or prescription medicine.
>>3454217How long has the BoS been using this armor and this flaw never came up before in all that time?
>>3452928The most obvious one is 3 has super mutants created without FEV. That's not how that works, every mutant that exists in Fallout canon was supposed have been personally created by The Master.
>>3454249TO BE FAIR, no one else knows how to make PA aside from the Enclave and if all you're fighting is raiders that don't know how to aim for that one specific spot, the flaw might as well not be there. Like the Death Star's exhaust port if the plans weren't stolen.
I don't know, I thought it was pretty good. As a show I mean, not necessarily as a representation of Fallout lore.
>>3454162>The Outer Worlds was a good gameNo. It is better than Starfield, though.
>>34537823 and 4 don't make sense even individually, especially the Institute.
>>3454908The Brotherhood of Steel fought a rather long and costly war with the NCR before this.https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/NCR-Brotherhood_WarSo its not really fair to say all they've only been fighting is raiders.
>>3450719>RTFMExcept text is notoriously bad at describing how a game should play, especially if you're trying to make a value judgement on what build to pick.
>>3450989Somebody better get drawfag to make another banner.
>>3450697He said he tried testing the geometric form thing in tests for Outer Worlds, but didn't find a good way to make it work, but he still thinks that there is a way, he just isn't smart enough to find it.In any case, at least he saw that what he proposed wasn't really working in the testing phase.
>>3454945>he still thinks that there is a way but he just isn't smart enough to find itAh, so he's a midwit, then?
>>3450667Looks like Wasteland WON in the end
>>3454946All I can say is that he literally said that.
>>3454905you idiot, the ones in 3 are made with fev
>>3455130Man you ruined it by correcting him. These guys always find something to complain about, but it's more amusing when they whine about something stupid
>>3450667lmao
>>3454905Every single thing in the wasteland has already been exposed to FEV. That's why the Master needed vault dwellers to uplift.
>>3455287Bethesda retconned that as well.
>>3455287I though the issue was radiation exposure.
>>3454217>>3454222>>3454249This is actually completely fine. He's specifically using armor piercing rounds and aiming for an obscure weak point. How many people in the NCR-brotherhood war were issued pre-war spec AP rounds, and who would even try to penetrate the front plate when it logically should be the most heavily armored part instead of going for the helmet or arms & legs? Walton Goggins' character in general is the only thing worth a fuck in the entire show. I actually enjoyed it when he was on screen.
>>3455315>obscure weak point>center mass> who would even try to penetrate the front plate when it logically should be the most heavily armored partEveryone including NCR troops just a few seconds prior.
>>3453991>>3453994>>3453998>>3454162Obsidian sucks and obviously if they're going to introduce the setting of the OG Fallout to casuals and non-gamer peasants the kill the fascists fantasy or w/e the fuck went on in NV (didn't care, never played tranny fallout) would just muddy the waters and ruin the tone.Then there is probably the threat of obsidian trying to grasp some lawsuit money out of it since all their games have sucked even more than usual lately so they're on the ropes once the checks from selling POE run out. All anyone ever owed them was what they bought to license other people's creations with and it worked 20 percent of the time at a ceiling of 80 percent of the quality of the original title so why give them 20 percent of the legacy jackpot?I truly don't know what Todd was smoking with Starfield (wads of cash savings from cheapest contract pajeets and some form of esg kickbacks I assume) but he's no fool.
>>3456449Guess those troopers weren't using an armor-piercing grenade pistol then
The show actually great though/thread"Applause*
>>3457063Nah it's soulless corporate slop
>>3456449>Everyone including NCR troops just a few seconds priorWere they using AP rounds and aiming for a specific weld just below the chest plate? Because it looks to me like they're just spraying and praying.
>>3455315>who would even try to penetrate the front plate when it logically should be the most heavily armored partWhy would you armour the front of the armour suit, when logically no one would ever aim there?
>>3450667Todd just confirmed Shady Sands was nuked after 2281 after New VegasAnd New Vegas was canon.NV fags lost
I guess tunnelers destroyed New Vegas unless they decide it was Vault-tec too.
>>3457704it was quarry death claws
>>3450667>it’s realWHAT THE FUCK
>>3457716check you media literacy
Didn't snake oil salesman Todd just say NV is still canon tho?
>>3457736Everything is canon, even what is conflicting with canon.
this tantrum was 100% NCR fanboys crying over their headcanon theories about the end result of NV not coming true.I'm glad that Legate Todd has out this element of the fanbase.
What the fuck did he mean by this? How do you make money when all of your customers are all dead or cannibal-bandits?
>>3457776everyone becomes junkie gamblers
>>3457776I think he means the end of the world as an ever present, but unactualized, threat. Failing that, by running a casino.
>>3457736>Todd and Emil being to retarded to see that the NCR being nuked before the start of NV is a retconHonestly that just makes it worse.
>>3457796they saud it was nuked after you retard
>>3450667I'm just going to ignore the TV show and consider it non-canon to the setting and there's nothing that Todd Howard can do about that.
>>3457804Then you're no better than the faggots that headcanon characters as trans or queerAlso it's fake news, stop falling for it
>>3457780That's exactly the opposite of what he's talking about, since Vault-tec just announced that they're planning on launching a nuclear strike themselves so they can make more money. No, it's never explained how exactly killing 99% of life on earth and reverting humanity back to the stone age translates to profit, but don't think about that. Capitalists are EEEEEVIIIL
>>3457812What the fuckMaking money with the end of the world basically sounds like what Vault-Tec was doing. Selling vaults and vault accessories for the looming nuclear war. But he's literally talking about triggering the nuclear war? For profit? Did Emil write this?
>>3457856>causes a world war for money and profit>destroys the world>people now uses bottlecaps as currencyWell done bethesda.
>>3457856https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pAD870Lx-o
>>3457776>it's actually meta-commentary on bethesda nuking the fallout ip by making it retarded on purpose to farm engagementTodd is a genius business man
>>3457812>No, it's never explained how exactly killing 99% of life on earth and reverting humanity back to the stone age translates to profit, but don't think about that. Capitalists are EEEEEVIIILYou say that but /pol/ and /x/ constantly talk about how this is what the "elites" want while they themselves have their own ideas about culling populations they deem unworthy of living. Seems like you're so up your ass you think it's some "commie" thing. You're just a subhuman.
>>3457796wasn't emil the genius that gave us Nate the RAKE?
>>3458002First, the fact that /pol/ does it doesn't mean it's not retarded.Second, the TV show is presenting it as a critique of capitalism. Mr. Vault-Tec over there is specifically saying that he thinks global nuclear war is an opportunity to profit. I guess they could pull an Iron Sky twist and show that he was actually trying to kill everyone so his lizardman overlords could take over, but somehow I doubt that's what they're going for here.
>>3458002>You say that but /pol/ and /x/ constantly talk about how this is what the "elites" wantLiterally never heard anyone try to claim global nuclear holocaust is in the plans for the elites. I have heard plenty about them flooding the first world with 3rd world retards who vote for more government control, which is happening.
>>3451665>rewriting reality to suit your retarded worldviewTrannies love New Vegas, what the fuck are you talking about? They view Fallout 3 as evil, racist, and colonial since you can enslave children, ghouls are an underclass, and it idealizes the 50's, while New Vegas allows you to join communists (the NCR), and makes ghouls "le wacky and sympathetic misunderstood good guys".
>>3453047>People are going to build a civilization. It's what happened to the actual American wild west.Yes, they managed to settle the wild west because of a national infrastructure that was intent on settling it and incentivized people to move out there, along with the steady, gradual, stable production and innovation of technology on a world-wide scale with universal forms of communication (phones, telegrams, radio).How are they going to achieve all of that in a radioactive hellscape filled with actual nightmare monster mutants and completely unstable factions run by zealous tyrants? The theme of Fallout is that the world was destroyed. It is permanently unstable due to the dropping of the bombs, the depletion of resources due to the souring of the land from the nuclear explosions and "fallout", giving way to a dying earth narrative where the people are doomed invariably, but continue struggling on. Having some defacto good-guy faction that fixes everything is antithetical to the fucking core philosophy of Fallout.It's like having the coyote finally catch the road runner. It's missing the point.
>>3458091The up-jumping of Shady Sands and its consequences have been a disaster for Fallout.
>>3458041The elites don't want them to flood the first world to vote for liberals, that's merely a side goal. Their real goal is to create a permanent underclass slave caste of society that is fundamentally reliant on government, while they are used and abused to create cheap labor, without the ability to move up in society and displace other elites."You will own nothing" is not a societal goal, it's what they want for the underclasses they wish to control. They want YOU to own nothing, because THEY will own it, you will simply rent it out from them. They also don't want people to "move up" in society because it would create a job gap that needs filling, which was traditionally held by teens and burnouts, but as teens dry up because of their stupid fucking anti-natalist policies because of "muh overpopulation", and because of burnouts just quitting altogether and going full hobo, they no longer have those two classes of society to rely on for their cheap disposable labor. Their solution is thusly, to flood the world with retarded niggers and spics, rather than actually pay those jobs a proper wage.This is not late-stage capitalism either, like many try to imply. This is flat-out corporatocracy, with governments working hand-in-hand and being driven primarily by corporations through lobbying and subsidized funds and bailouts. Corporatocracy is the opposite of capitalism.
>>3458041>I have heard plenty about them flooding the first world with 3rd world retards who vote for more government control, which is happening.I mean yeah, but the real endgoal is the golden (b)(m)illion.
>>3458084Since when NCR is communist? Weren't ghouls always just irradiated mutated people? What in the fuck sits in the head of /pol/tard to speak straight up bullshit?
>>3458132>What in the fuck sits in the head of /pol/tard to speak straight up bullshit?>not instantly recognizing the Fallout 3 Pajeethttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxvxVS8RGJY
>>3458091>radioactive hellscapeIt's only mildly radioactive, apart from a few hotspots. The fallout is cleaning itself through nuclear decay.>nightmare monster mutantsThe existence of large superpredators should be ample evidence that the "wasteland" is capable of sustaining life. they've got to be eating something.>Having some defacto good-guy faction that fixes everything is antithetical to the fucking core philosophy of Fallout.Where was this "core philosophy" established? All the Fallout games I've played are about a good guy going around fixing everything.>It's like having the coyote finally catch the road runner. It's missing the point.I think you've missed the point. Looney Tunes can get away with repeating the same "story" in every short because it's pure visual comedy. The story's incidental, it's just a vehicle for serving new variations of the same established gags.There are video games that are structurally similar to Looney Tunes. Ones where the story is more or less irrelevant, only meant to give context for the gameplay. Fallout was never like that, though. The story's supposed to be actually meaningful, which necessarily implies that it's going somewhere, i.e. that it's going to end. You can't keep a proper narrative story going forever. You need to end it, or there won't be any meaningful payoff.That naturally poses some difficulties if you want to have a franchise that you can milk for new media for all eternity, which is how we got here. Fallout's doing the setting equivalent of bringing the bad guy back from the dead just so the heroes can fight him again. A writer obviously CAN do that, and sometimes even do it elegantly, but it's not "missing the point" to argue that it cheapens the original story.
>>3458134I do not know all the retards in the Internet and still stand by my words because of infestation of /pol/ with shitskins.
>>3458136>Fallout was never like that, though. The story's supposed to be actually meaningful, which necessarily implies that it's going somewhere, i.e. that it's going to end. You can't keep a proper narrative story going forever. You need to end it, or there won't be any meaningful payoff.I guess it's up to interpretation, but to me it seemed Fallout was about the player affecting the story, and not a progressing story which ignores all those possibilities in order to "end" somewhere. The overseer doesn't want to let the hero back in, in order to prevent change.If you got a unique magical setting with plenty of stories to tell, why rush to remove magic from it? I prefer the potential in a more ruined world, where the struggle adds weight to everything.
>>3458091that bethesda interpretation and your interpretation of Fallout, not what happened in the games, both Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 had factions rebuilding the world.
>>3458258>>3458136They could've just done Fallout in China, UK, Europe (although it would have to be some snooty ghoul society bullshit considering how hard it got nuked), Fallout Africa (imagine riding a radioactively turbocharged jaguar) or Fallout Australia. Not sure how that last one differs from normal fallout though, it's a wasteland desert full of tribals already.
>>3458258>Fallout was about the player affecting the story, and not a progressing story which ignores all those possibilities in order to "end" somewhere. I really don't understand what you mean by this.Yes, the player affects the story. It's a video game with choices and consequences. But there is still a story. Several, in fact, if you count each quest as its own closed narrative. And all of those quests have an end point.Like, to get to the point where the Overseer exiles you from the Vault, you had to defeat the Master. He posed an existential threat to the entire region, and now he's gone forever. Without him, supermutants are going to go extinct within a generation. You've enacted a permanent positive change. Bethesda ended up ignoring this, and inventing various bullshit excuses for why they still exist, but in the context of Fallout 1, at the ending cutscene, you've eradicated their race.And if the Bethesda approach is what you want - if you always want there to be bullshit excuses for why everything is the same - then isn't Fallout 1 kind of a shit story? They could have written the ending so that the Master narrowly escapes, and sets up a new mutant facility. They could have written Shady Sands to explicitly remain a small and insignificant village forever. They could have had Killian and Gizmo feud over Junktown forever, a generational conflict with their identical-looking grandchildren still stuck in a permanent stalemate. They tied up all those plot threads by choice, when leaving them hanging would have made infinite sequels so much easier.What do you even want? You talk about the themes of Fallout, and the unique, magical setting, and haven't directly criticised the writing in any of the games. At the same time, you seem to despise the NCR and things getting better, when that was set up right in the very first game. The setting was established with this stuff. Which one is the good Fallout game to you?
>>3458396>Fallout AustraliaLooks like any other Fallout game, but then you slowly piece together that Australia actually survived the war completely unscathed, it's just like that.
>>3458441I thought I was clear about not wanting stability and prosperity in Fallout.Obviously I'm not wishing for the same stories to repeat, you idiot. As I said, there's stories to tell, and I prefer the possibilities in a world that hasn't been rebuilt and fixed.
>>3458446You could do Fallout 1 & 2 remakes with 1 being pre-war Australia and 2 being post-war Australia and it's still just the same wasteland except the scorpions got slightly bigger.
>>3458134Oh look, the schizo posted his strawman.
the problem with bethesda is that they want the world to stay in infinite wasterland state. Even in Fallout 2 the rebuilding process was going strong but bethesda doesn't know how to handle it and instead we get this retard 200 years of people living in shacks made of trash or pipe weapons. I think that's a reason why people liked NV more, the world in new vegas was alive, we had goverment, currency, armies, people rebuilding what was lost... I honestly doesn't understand why they don't make a Fallout year one if they love the wasterlands so much...
>>3458600Checked. Lack of creativity. They refuse to literally go back to the source material and try something new.
>>3458136>I think you've missed the point. Looney Tunes can get away with repeating the same "story" in every short because it's pure visual comedy. The story's incidental, it's just a vehicle for serving new variations of the same established gags.I think you've missed the point. I wasn't saying that the story was minimal and irrelevant, I was stating that unless the games take place in a nuclear apocalyptic setting, it's not Fallout. Having a society rebuilt by the NCR and having everyone building planes and railroads and creating an equivalent modern day society is not Fallout. It's in the name. You either end the series implying that the world grew back into a flourishing society like in Fallout 2, or you cut them off at the legs in the sequel and show that things didn't work out. Other-wise, make another game, or at the very least a spin-off series.
>>3458614I think you've missed the point. Rebuilding in a post apocalyptic scenario is still post apocalyptic, due to the nature of being postapocalyptic. Just because it's a dead system that lead to the war doesn't mean people won't vote for it, I mean have you even met people? Go out and touch grass and then with a straight face tell us those "people" are better than we are right now.
>>3458328Fallout 1 didn't. Fallout 2 did and it was at the end of the game, and meant to symbolize the death of the franchise, retard. It's why they abandoned the series after 2 and did a bunch of other projects. Van Buren was an attempt at capitalizing on the Fallout name to save the studio and get investors to fund them before their imminent closure.Quit talking about shit you don't understand.
>>3458617>I think you've missed the point. Rebuilding in a post apocalyptic scenario is still post apocalyptic, due to the nature of being postapocalyptic. What are you talking about? You never made that point. You just introduced that in this post. That's like saying we're living in a post-bronze age collapse today. The effects of the apocalypse are irrelevant and no longer a significant factor. Post apocalypse fiction, by definition, takes place in settings that are meant to be immediately following the after-effects of the events, with society and technology being scattered. With>Go out and touch grassHow about you go out and get laid.
>>3458623I'm not that anon. Also yes, we are living in a post-bronze age collapse by definition. Everything that used to make sens doesn't because of faggots (like you) and trannies and zoomers, we are fucked beyond measure while you don't realise it. Your loss for not preparing.
>>3458620>the master trying to save the world by turning humans into mutants>the shady sands ending where it turns into the NCR>necropolis turning into a major settlement in one of the endings No, you shut the fuck up, you don't understand fallout, and bethesda does not understand fallout, Fallout always had factions trying rebuild society in their vision.>but the master is the baddieDoesn't matter, what matter is the intent, if the only way to save humanity was to convert humans into cubes of meat and shove them into tech cubicles of pain, I'm doing it because I'm the right and I want to save humanity, humanity will live in the cube. Fallout 4 was shitty borderlands clone.
>>3458629You sound like a retarded pedantic faggot who makes false statements (like we're living in a post bronze age collapse, when bronze is plentiful now), and who doesn't understand basic concepts such as the cause and effect of living under the societal pressure of certain constraints, and that when those constraints are lifted, we are no longer living under those basic concepts that define our societal pressures.I bet you also think you're a "survivalist" because you bought a cheap shitty knife and a crowbar off amazon. Go fuck yourself you retarded nigger.
>>3458633> society isn't collapsingyes it is> you're a niggerN I G G E R> when bronze is plentiful nowbecause it has been produced before, the western world doesn't have the industrial know-how to do it anymore> doesn't understand basic conceptsYou sound like one of those debased faggots that thinks quickly destroying China/Russia before you have yourself ANOTHER industrial base inside your own country is a good thing. Faggot. Nigger.
>>3458632>No, you shut the fuck up, you don't understand fallout,Translation: Blah blah blah, I suck cocks AND dicks. >>the master trying to save the world by turning humans into mutantsYea, that's not saving the world you fucking inbred retarded dipshit, in case you weren't aware, the Master was evil.>>the shady sands ending where it turns into the NCRThey're mentioned in brief passing and are never mentioned to be the saviors of the wasteland. That's at the end of 2, where the series ended. Go FUCK yourself.> if the only way to save humanity was to convert humans into cubes of meat and shove them into tech cubicles of pain, I'm doing it because I'm the right and I want to save humanity, humanity will live in the cube.Not humanity then, since humans are objectively not cubes of meat, fuck your stupid ass retard logic.
>>3458636>because it has been produced before, the western world doesn't have the industrial know-how to do it anymoreChile is the biggest producer of copper in the world you fucking tard, lmao.>You sound like oneAnd YOU sound like a low IQ turd-let that pretends to know what he's talking about before getting shown up for the retard that he actually is.
>>3450667NV trannies brought this shit on themselves when in the mid 2010s they started to constantly shit on Fallout 3 when there was no animosity before.
>>3458638>>Yea, that's not saving the world you fucking inbred retarded dipshitYes it is.>immune to radiation>longer lives>strongLike it or not The Master was right, sure his methods weren't perfect, but he was right on the money. >>the Master was evilFrom the perspective of the non super mutants, from the perspective of the super mutants, The Master was correct.
>>3458629>post-bronzekek iron maybe after the fall of Rome. Who educated you? russian bots?
>thread devolves into left and right pol trannies poltard ranting about schizo shitExactly why New Fagass discussion got boring in 2013 all the fucking pinko-fascists cant stfu with their off topic pol schizophrenia
>>3450914His opinions mean nothing nowadays. He likes the tv show. It's fucking over, man. I can't fucking believe it after having watched Creetosis's autistic analysis.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D_C0gNjaiw
>>3457812The basic idea is that they want to take over the world and rule it as supreme corporate overlords. This is why they are enemies of the Enclave NCR and so on. Any other institution that it is not them is their enemy.
>>3457776It's brutally simple. They don't actually care about the profit. They want to take over the world, destroy any institution or rival standing in their way, and be king of the ashes. It's the "better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven attitude". They probably saw the old world as hopeless corrupt and a dumpster anyway worth destroying rather than fixing.
Vault Tec did nothing.
>>3458136>Fallout was never like that, though.1 and 2 were like that.3 had you wreck the landscape with LIBERTY PRIME firing literal nukes, come on now.It's always been a little tongue in cheek about radiation and death so the looney tune roots were present even in 1.The reality of nuclear war is that no one on the planet is left alive, there is no eating pork n beans with your libertarian buddies future for anyone, everyone is dead in a poisoned nuclear winter kind of place due to radiation and dead ecosystems combined with unwinnable weather effects even if you didn't live in a kill zone. So any post apoc setting is intrinsically tongue in cheek.>>3458659>Exactly why New Fagass discussion got boring in 2013 all the fucking pinko-fascists cant stfu with their off topic pol schizophreniaYeah if you don't agree with the left now, you're /pol/. Ok, I'm /pol/ then.>>3458096This guy gets it. For some reason they believe governments aren't just another gang of overpowered thugs, same as their fascist mobs doing 'protests' and the same as unchecked corporatism. That's why their current target is the middle class, the only ones that even dare to oppose them.I guess it sells well in the sticks when they're the only leftists in 200 miles in the small lgbtq club in the sticks that is too good to work for walmart so it's after hours discord and 4chan where they can feel like they're superior to people trying to take care of their kids. They can make all their high societal pronouncements because they don't have to be invested in the hand to mouth living going on around them. This is how street bums in CA live too, insulated in a way with warm weather, couch surfing and cruising the castro on the weekends. Or some lost teen on the Haight that thought Anne Rice had the key to her freedom but now she lives begging for change under Mc'D's and darting into the club to drink your leftovers.
>>3458727>"i can't believe he likes a tv show!!">*goes to watch some autistic youtuber bitch about things*
>>3458614>It's not Fallout unless it ignores the events of every previous Fallout game
>>3450743Anon, I'm not the guys you are arguing with. You are making a lot of sense and are totally right.It's an information problem. A game should communicate all relevant information to the player before they make a built decision. It's not about whether a game is complicated or not, although the more complex a games system are the higher the chances the player lacks some vital information.Example: Imagine leveling a character in Diablo 2 to high levels and then finding a perfect unique or set item for your built. Except that the stat requirements bar you from using it. Had you known the stat requirements of endgame equipment earlier you would have allocated your stats differently. That is shitty for the player because he screwed up his built due to a lack of information.Solution: Make sure the player knows the stat requirements of endgame equipment earlier. For example you could have vendors offer unenchanted versions of the gear so that players can see what stats they are going to need.
>>3458641And YOU sound like a low IQ turd-let that pretends to know what he's talking about before getting shown up for the retard that he actually is.Things aren't collapsing. They're just getting a little tough.
Yeah, it do be like that. Its like if youd go to a new job, and theyd ask you to pick red or blue office, without telling you whats the difference. Red is software dev, and blue is you donating all your organs. The problem generally takes this shape - player wants to play as an archer, lets say. He gets all points in agility. Sike, agility is for melee, we have str requirements for archery!The goal should be a good explanation for stats in game, instea of simply simplyfying em, imo. Or Skyrim-like system with a limited growth or maybe "if you grow this, everything else get lower". I think SaGa games do it allright???
>>3458857You are not smarter for being right wing.
>>3453047>People are going to build a civilization. It's what happened to the actual American wild west.Only according to fake history.
>>3458920I'm not right wing you partisan-brained faggot.
>>3458745this sounds very very very stupid considering that the entire point of vault tec was to collect data for the enclave for their possible exodus program.
>>3458636because it has been produced before, the western world doesn't have the industrial know-how to do it anymore>https://www.wikihow.com/Make-BronzeThere were a lot of links I just grabbed the first one.
it's over. the og fallout guy loves it. the west has fallen. time to drop the bombs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bFBLAbwMA0
>>3459168What? You want him to hate it and get canceled? He can only smile and nod as they rape his franchise
>>3450723>I'd say that anyone who can't handle rolling up a character and doesn't know what "Strength" or "Agility" would doYou're being retarded. You don't know what those stats do before you play the game. What if Strength gives you a melee buff but then you discover 20 hours in that all the melee weapons are shit?
>>3460066If he didn't like it he wouldn't need to post not one but two videos where he prasies it. There are also plenty of redditors who genuinely like it. Fallout is just a clown franchise now.
>>3460369Get a life, faggot
>>3460372butthurt idiot
>>3459168Only Avellone's opinion matters, Tim is a fag.
>>3457102>>3456866Sadly the NCR lost their shipment of magic guns and plot armor.
>>3450667The show promotes race mixing, thus it's not canon no matter how much the Jews and cuckolds say otherwise. Cope-a-Cabana.
>>3460461Avellone's Throne of Baphomet will make RPGs great again. I believe in him.
>>3460554based johnny rebel
>>3460359Then I guess you're playing with a suboptimal character. That's not a problem by itself, though. You only need to restart after 20 hours if 1) the game is difficult enough in the late game that you need autistic buildmaxxing to have a chance, AND 2) the game lacks an early-game noob filter. It's completely fine to just balance the levelling system so that you can get by despite making bad choices, and I'd argue it's also fine to restart the game a few times to figure it out so long as it's not 20 hours in.
>>3460684Having to restart is very frustrating if you roleplay and are invested in the character and their story you've created/played so far.
>>3460691Yes, which is why the difficulty spike should hit early and hard, before you get attached to a character that isn't viable.
Just let people respec at any point they wish in exchange for a bit of coin you fucking neckbearded boomer build spergs
>>3450667Fallout 3 is back Bethesdabros >>3460822Obsidianbros sneed and seethe.
>>3460612>Avellone's Throne of BaphometWhat?
>>3461982Avellone and Kirkbride are working on a new RPG.
>>3450667stop spreading lies op just fuck off you tard munching brain-dead fuckwit
>>3450670so you certainly saved and posted that image
>>3462011>>3460612link?
>>3462561It was revealed to me in a dream.
>>3462047The show completely fucked up the lore Todd, you can stop shilling it here.Also Fallout 3, 4, and 76 are fanfiction
>>3450737We got new banner materiel
>>3463499>Also Fallout 3, 4, and 76 are fanfictionTactics chads we are so heckin' validated right now
>>3450667a couple of fallout writers wanted to erase ncr before todd
>>3450667>listening to some random twitter rambling about the show>not showing the username>confirmation biasi know this board was massively retarded but holy shit
>>3454923what NCR? never heard of 'em
>>34506723 and 4 are more normie than new vegas thoroughever
>>3450727Why are you crying about a 26 year old game? It's not like there was a guideline to how games were supposed to be made back then, certainly not two decades of hindsight that developers have now to cater to whiny pussies like you.Fallout 1 and 2 were made to be played many times, trial and error was supposed to be part of the experience, which is practically how every game in the 80 and 90's operated, and especially since the technology was constantly changing and allowing different things to be possible.
>>3463495Faggot.
>>3464210>not like there was a guideline to how games were supposed to be made back thenNow Cain is offering solid advice, and the kneejerk reaction is "he's saying they need to dumb down games!!!"
>>3464737People just want to be spoonfed now so they don't feel like they're "wasting their time" and they can do everything in one single playthrough and then decide after whether or not it's worth of a replay. The mystery is gone now because everything is documented for these pansies to read up on so they can have the most meta experience possible.
>>3460461Avellone hated it.
>>3459168>>3460461>>3466393Of course Avellone would hate it, because they're walking all over west coast lore and shitting on his writing. And of course Cain would like it, because he's a brokeback faggot and obviously sympathetic to woke culture.
>>3466651Cain got robbed of fallout almost 30 years ago, he's not going to whine about fargo lore being shat on by a different bunch of stupid cunts
>>3466393I'm so sad because of this. He's the only one that's willing to speak out and state the obvious. It's like the emperor's new clothes...
>>3466935>in times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
>>3466686Cain? maybe you have not heard the Ballad of Campbell, the actual genius behind the og game.
>>3466941I think The Outer Worlds has shown the true capabilities of the "original creators of Fallout: Boyrasky and Cain".
>>3450670enjoy your reddit memes anon, in reality this shit is inverted.
>>3466943God why was Outer Worlds so shit? Its not even funny bad its boring bad, the worst kinda of bad. How are these the same guys who made Fallout, Arcanum, and VTMB?
>>3450667>everyone in NV is telling you that NCR is slowly turning into a failed state because of multiple things>ulysses tells you that mojave is going to get taken over by tunnelers or some savage faction in a matter of years>house is telling you that NCR is going to fall soon>pretty much everything in the game shows that NCR is struggling compared to the times of Fallout 2>a couple of years later NCR falls along with New Vegas>"lorefags" are angry because bethesda apparently retconned F:NVlmao
>>3467509ncr fanboys are delusional and never understood the setting.They headcanon that the NCR wins NV and just keeps expanding.
>>3467487>How are these the same guys who made Fallout, Arcanum, and VTMB?They just got old + ESG and risk management telling them to make a safe product
>>3450667Yes he is, why do you think they still release updates to Skyrim? They change literally nothing but they want to break mods because they couldn't make us pay for it after they realized how big it was
>>3467509>all of this turned out to be completely irrelevant because California was nuked again and NCR is just gone now
Die now, thread.
>>3467487>>3467528>He doesn't answer any story or any questions that explain why outer world's is so shit>"Can't, we're making a game of it rn so I can't answer any questions that might result in giving away things or challenging a game in dev"Pic actually unrelatated didn't watch the vjd just think it's funny and thematically appropriate that the vid I got recommended after that was this
>>3467594>>all of this turned out to be completely irrelevantYou won't really know that until season 2>because California was nuked againWe don't know if the whole California got nuked. It's much more likely that it was just Shady Sands.>NCR is just gone nowAgain, you don't know that. NCR seems to exist in some capacity since Moldaver is one of the leaders. We still don't know what's going on in The Hub, Vault City, etc.
>>3467873You're such dumb shill it's not even funny.
>>3467873>You won't really know that until season 2Why? Isn't it kind of pertinent information for the setting whether there was a second apocalypse or not? If they're trying to set up some kind of "surprise twist" with information that would have been common knowledge for the characters, but unknown to the audience, that's honestly even worse.
>>3450667weird, I can still play it no problem?
>>3468033Dude, it's a fucking TV series, people like surprises or information being revealed slowly to them so that they can process it and make guesses on things. You're either autistic or just nitpicking.It's like reading the first chapter of a book and being mad that the author hasn't explained the whole setting because that would be crucial for knowing what are the next 10 chapters going to be like, without assuming that the world is going to get explained in detail along the way. >>3467892You're such a dumb contrarian it's not even funny.
>>3468937The show is bad, quit coping.
