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new enemy: marker but its a dog
this will likely be the last new enemy, so now I just need to add new moves to pennilton, bearing and foxlace, redo the bearing and foxlace events and the bulk of the new dark world content will be complete (still missing some small things)
then I can set up the new gizmo stuff in light world and that should be all for new content, then I just finish the last small things and playtest/rewrite with my friend
hopefully I can make it before the end of the month

>>3860110
You have to give that thing some relation to the stapler enemy in chapter 2.

>>3860139
yes that is a planned interaction if you apprehend both

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I like imagining stories from other characters' POVs, so imma do one for undertale yellow from Ceroba's perspective (with some headcanons to fill in the blanks, if you dont mind), so imagine you are ceroba for a moment, that everything you've seen about ceroba happened to you, instead:
>You are Ceroba Ketsukane, a (presumably) long descendant of a big family tree of Japanese Boss Monsters who migrated over to (location of Mt. Ebott) at some point before the great human-monster war occured, so even through you have like 1% japanese genes, you decide that the best way to pay your respects to your ancestry is by becoming obsessed with japan to the point where your future husband bought a japanese mansion when you moved away from your house later on.
>so, one day, you fell into a ditch, where you met the person who would later become love of your life, a skinny nerdy fox who seems to be very obviously in love with you, and at first, you weren't very interested in him, his magic was kinda weak despite him trying to boast about being a boss monster, even your magic is above average! to be honest, the only impressing thing you saw back then was that he's very good with machines, like very, very, talented, normally, you wouldve just ignored him as if he was like that weird dalv guy, but... him mentioning the fact that he's a boss monster made you feel curious, you've always felt different from your classmates due to being a boss monster, the only real friend you had being that one eccentric starlo guy, so you decide to try to know that nerd a bit more, you actively hang out with him out of pity, and eventually, one day, he asks you on a date!
>which is... surprising, the only time you've tried dating someone, you were strung along into starlo's cowboy adventures around the school, and althrough it was kinda fun to play with a bunch of nerf guns, things never really clicked between you two, so you decided to try dating again.

>>3860169
>and to your surprise... Chujin was really great! He loved watching the same human-made shows you did, he was obsessed with robotics, and even showed you a remote toy called "Axis model 00", he kept talking about how he wanted to become popular, and that he'll show everybody the might of Chujin! Overall, he was pretty fun to be around with, so you kept having dates often, developing a spark between you two.
>Thankfully, your parents were pretty accepting of your growing relationship with chujin, and his were pretty accepting to, the father talking about how "i'm glad that my boy finally chose somebody of the same monster species as us!", so you spent a lot of years together, and when you two married after graduating, he offered to take your family surname!
>After you were married, you two decided to have a child together and move away from the mountains and into the wild east, which frankly, gave you a great appreciation of your new family and what it could grow into with chujin's dreams.
>so of course, Chujin got a job at the steamworks and kept working on various Axis Models in order to impress the king or whatever, you two didnt really talk much about his work. In fact, it seemed kinda odd that he would later tell you that "he retired" for unspecified reasons, but you didnt question it much, althrough you did manage to catch wind of the fact that Asgore had criticized axis and his world, so it makes you consider that perhaps Asgore crushed Chujin's dreams and thats why he told you that he retired, so in the end, you could only resent Asgore for crushing his lifelong dreams, and what would happen soon after only made it stick further. You had to work at the Cafe near the wild east town, by the way.
>One day, Kanako asked you to let her go hang out with Dalv at snowdin's town, and you let her go, since you know that despite being a weirdo, Dalv has never let kanako get herself hurt, so you know she's safe within Dalv's hands.

>>3860170
>but a few hours later, you see Axis head out of the town and chujin tells you that a human wearing a tutu had been rampaging through snowdin! You decide to go save kanako and dalv from danger, when you and chujin get to snowdin, it becomes clear that kanako is alright, althrough Dalv had been kicked down a lot, nonetheless, you heal him up with some magic and comfort kanako.
>and before you could notice that chujin had ran off to waterfall while you were talking to kanako, he walks towards you with a visibly cleaned up Axis and he tells you that the human had been finally stopped, so thats great, at least you wont have to get your revenge against the little shit who dared to hurt so many people, included your daughter. Who knows what wouldve happened if they werent stopped.
>As the months go by, your husband mysteriously begins to grow ill, and even through he tries to not let it show, it's painfully clear that he's hesitant to tell you what's going on, and he keeps getting worse, to the point where he becomes bedridden from how weak his body had become.
>He simply chooses to tell you that theres a secret basement on the house where he keeps the VHS equivalents of a diary.
>So after your husband passes away, you learn from the tapes that he had been working on a project to create a serum with the blue soul and was injecting himself with it because of the lack of volunteering boss monsters, asking you to continue his project after his death, and the tapes beg you to not involve Kanako in this experiment.

>>3860171
>so you begin to plan, how could you continue chujin's project? But before you can get anywhere with it, it turns out that Kanako somehow found out about chujin's basement without your knowledge and snuck in while you weren't looking.
>so you go back into the basement, and Kanako tells you that she wants to help daddy's project and asks you to inject her with the same serum that took your husband away, even through the tapes just told you to not involve kanako.

>>3860172
>So you... go against your dead husband's wishes and jab your child with the same untested serum that killed your husband, and to your dismay, it made kanako fall down! How could this be!?
>So you quickly rush kanako over to the current royal scientist's lab and ask alphys to fix your daughter up in anyway you can.
>that's the last time you see your daughter, because alphys started to ghost you whenever you DMed her about your terminally ill daughter, and you cant help but to feel concerned about her safety, about what is going on with her exactly.
>then again, it's not like she was in the best conditions when you brought her in, so perhaps there was very little hope of your daughter ever recovering anyways, maybe you just need a miracle for her recover!
>but either way, you begin to ponder what you did wrong, and you reach the conclusion that maybe the serum didnt work for either chujin or kanako because the human soul used for the serum wasn't pure or something, so all you have to do is wait for the next human to have 0 exp and walk into your town.
>you succumb into your depression and begin drinking alcohol to numb the pain and stress of having to fulfill your husband's project somehow, you move into your childhood friend's place because you cant bear the constant reminders of what you had lost, and while starlo is willing to support you after your loss, you feel like you cant trust starlo enough to tell him about chujin's project, so you spend the next years keeping it to yourself, being too depressed to bother doing stuff like going to the gym and such, your boss at the café place is dogshit so that doesnt help much either, but at least starlo keeps you from going over the edge.
>one day, while starlo went off to do yet another one of his cowboy larp roleplay adventures, he brings in a silent autistic child called clover into the salloon, so you begin to pay some attention to clover.

>>3860173
>whether this child likes starlo's adventures or not, you can tell that, deep down, they really want to go fight the kong, despite the fact that he had 5 human souls by now. This is perfect, however, their need for justice as well as their lack of EXP means theyre naive enough for you to take out with ease, all you have to do is to isolate them into the steamworks and you'll finally get to work on chujin's experiment! So you continue to kinda-observe the human every now and then, and for some reason, Starlo's gang decided to split up, so you finally get up and ask the former feisty five members what the fuck happened.

>>3860174
>so apparently, starlo kept pampering the random human who popped in over his own gang and they got fed up and left after trying to beat the child to death as a test, which does remind you that you're supposed to be ready to take the human's soul at any moment, so you walk over to starlo's and see him about to shoot the child down while they're raising their arms up in surrender (ooc: or not if clover pressed FIGHT and missed the attack), so you swoop in and stop him from doing this, after all of that, you're now ready to execute your plan and bring the human into steamworks.
>You boss them around for a bit, pretending that you know what you're doing, because frankly, you havent been here for a long time, but you dont want to seem like you're more incompetent than a literal child, so you start fiddling with a random machine while they go off and open the door for you, which makes you reconsider, maybe if you make clover do every puzzle and battle for you, they'll be worn out and you'll be able to take their soul right away, so thats what you do, you watch them do everything, you dont throw them into the purple lava for some reason, but regardless, they keep badgering you into TALKing about stuff everytime you two walk into a room, which gets a bit annoying, but you put up with it for the sake of the plan, just get to hotland and everything will be fine.
>so one of Chujin's robots pops up, and it seems like your ex-husband forgot to sneak you into the database, because he does not recognize you despite your relationship with chujin?? So he throws you and the kid into an enclosed room, and given how stupid that robot seemed to be, you suggest building something to make Axis stop being lonely or whatever, so they walk around collecting random garbage to build into something that would make axis give up.

>>3860175
>once you make your escape, a battle against a random steamworks robot starts, which reminds you to warn the child to not fucking destroy the machines with a revolver.
>after all, you wouldnt want this stupid kid to destroy your dead husband's work, so you proceed to do the bare minimum in every fight by summoning a weakass shield around their soul, hoping that the child will get themselves killed in a random fight for your convenience, you could just push the human into the purple lava and get things over with quickly, but you dont really consider that possibility for some reason, so you just pray they get unlucky and die or something.
>over the course of your journey with clover, you get to know them a bit more from what little info they choose to give off, so apparently theyre buddies with the weird raccoon salesman guy, and, apparently, theyve holding onto a bunch of golden stuff??
>either way, after outrunning axis, you decide to open up to the child a bit, telling them about how everybody else is foolish enough to hope for the king to save them all and about your daughter, they dont talk much, but at least theyre a great listener, which helps you feel motivated to continue with this plan.
>Clover faces all sorts of dangers while you keep watching them spare the enemies with relative ease, eventually finding a robot who's a face in the screen
>it forces you two to do a "puzzle" which is essentially just unpaid manual labor, the worst part being that the conveyor belt is broken so you have to step in so that this fuckass machine doesnt lock you up forever.

>>3860176
>this all goes on for a while, with you venting about how much asgore and alphys suck to this child, of course, to make up fir all the yapping you were doing, you ask clover about their motives for coming into the underground while on the elevator, and they tell you about their personal mission, which is surprisingly naive, given that its painfully obvious why the humans never returned to their houses.
>after you turn all the robots off and move onwards, a wall between you and clover appears, so while clover faces axis alone, you try forcing the door open
>of course, the fight is almost over by the time you get through, so thats convenient at least. Clover shows Axis the thing you two built earlier in order to get him to stop harassing you two, so with him out of the way, you head towards the hotland elevator, but suddenly, Starlo pops up and it seems like he and his gang found out the truth about your plans, which leaves you with no choice but to escape, you fail to grab clover's hand, but at least you make your way towards new home, you do end up cornered in a dead end, forcing you to explain yourself to starlo
>eventually, martlet and clover walk right towards you, which only makes things easier, you quickly knock martlet and starlo out, althrough it's odd how starlo ran towards you instead of using his lasso, but whatever, you make a dramatic speech, you start the fight, and start feeling confident, there's no way this stupid child is gonna be able to defeat you, right?
>well, surprisingly enough, they actually stand their ground quite well, managing to somehow survive your unavoidable attack, and even more surprising, they manage to shoot your magical mask shield down, which shows you the past, the reasons for what you are fighting for, which only reinvigorates you, not really convenient for clover, either
>but the battle reaches its end, for clover somehow manages to defeat you, forcing you to kneel and now, your survival is left to clover's hands...

>>3860178
Of course, death would be the end of ceroba, so lets see the mercy ending:
>and, thus, Clover decides to SPARE you, leading to you... not being berated for knocking them out and almost killing a child, in fact, starlo compliments you for the hit even through he couldve been braindead from that hit, plus, you hitting martlet couldve made her and clover fall off the cliff, so it's really surprising how he doesn't chew you out for your actions.
>either way, your plans have blown up because the child was too competent to die. You feign regret as you know that you've gone too far for them to just accept any excuses or "i'm sorry"s, if not starlo, then the royal guards will surely arrest you for unwarranted violence against a monster civilian and a literal royal guard, at least you might get a lesser sentence by acting like clover breaking your mask and reminding you of what you were fighting for which only motivated you further instead of talking you out of doing all of this made you change your mind about this whole thing, just gotta act like you're sad in court and monster saul goodman might get you out of this predicament.
>And yet, Starlo forgave you even through you both tried killing a child?? Like, that doesnt make both of your actions okay, but sure. And then martlet decides to let you off scotfree! With starlo and martlet hugging you! Well, it does seem like you got away with everything, so hey, no punishment for you, even the child you've tried to murder hugged you.
>you start to discuss what to do with clover now when suddenly they speak up and decide to give their soul up? Kinda defeats the point of them beating you in the first place, but ok, still understandable, however...
>martlet and starlo are completely fine with letting this child commit suicide??? You couldn't care less because the whole point of your fight was to kill clover, but why are these guys willing to let clover commit suicide? And theyre just willing to leave clover to rot here???

>>3860179
>So basically, martlet and starlo leave you alone with clover, you pull out a soul container out of thin air, and for some reason, the thought of just grabbing the soul and running off with it never crosses your mind even through all the stars have strangely enough aligned to accomplish the whole point you fought clover for, but whatever, you just get the soul, bring it to asgore, and get a very convenient yet confusing happy ending, i guess.
And thus, that's UTY from ceroba's POV, pretty neat, althrough some of the og uty's plotholes are very noticeable even from another character's POV, but still, writing this was pretty fun ngl

>>3860169
>>You are Ceroba Ketsukane, a (presumably) long descendant of a big family tree of Japanese Boss Monsters
already wrong, roba is a regular monster, chujin is the boss monster, roba only had the stuff she has in UTY because of him
roba was a nobody and everyone thinking otherwise is wish fulfilling (for her)

>>3860108
Rape

>>3860108
Stop spamming this shit. You've posted this same thing over and over again.
The 5 of you that really love this game should just start DM'ing each other and leave /vrpg/.
Seriously, I know you want attention but it's only you talking to yourselves.
Deltarune is bad, and the fact you need to come here and need validation is proof.

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>>3860211

>>3860194
Wait what? Really? I thought it was a fact that she's a boss monster, in my defense, i checked and saw nothing stating that she's a regular monster

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>>3860108
Stop posting

>>3860229
Wow...they really are desperate for content

>3860211
>3860229
Cry about the sequel, alice, rpg maker, xeno, /mon/ and all the other reoccurring threads too
But you won't because you specifically hate UT/DR, this thread isn't even that different from the rpg dev ones except it being focused on UT/DR fangames (and progress is actually posted consistently)
No (You) for you because fuck you

>>3860223
>i checked and saw nothing stating that she's a regular monster
She needed a boss monster to test the serum and Kanako was the only available subject

>>3860223
She's always been a regular monster.
The game pretty much spells it out for you, if you have basic Undertale lore knowledge.
That and the biggest give away is when she dies, her soul doesn't linger, which is exclusive to boss monsters.

>>3860229
>>3860231
I dunno, I'd say the fact these threads consistently hit the bump limit within just a few weeks on this board of all places shows that we've got a decent bit of activity going on here.
A single thread out of an entire board isn't a problem, move along.

>>3860261
I think you proved their point. -> >>3860211 and >>3860229
If it was more people it would fill faster.
Not defending this person or persons, but reading some of the past posts. It's the same stuff over and over again.
How much of a dead horse can you beat?

>>3860273
there are at least 30-50 people average (even if most only do one post then disappear)
and besides people want to remain anonymous and not be linked to an account or annoying rules other platforms have, so its easier to use a board like this
not like /vrpg/ is fighting for space like /v/ or other faster boards are anyway, at least the discussion is actually on topic instead of it just being image/porn dumps

Unfortunately I have to partially agree with >>3860229 but for entirely different reasons. But I know that the person I replied to is just a seething wannabe janny who doesn’t like UT/DR in general, so I’m using this as a stepping stone for my own issues.
Every /vrpg/ thread for the past year or so has just been the same “Fangames” thread, often with the same image. There hasn’t been a single proper Yellow thread since 2024, despite these threads existing from Yellow fans to begin with.
And I know that the guy who makes this threads is always the same one, because they all use the same basic format. Last year I asked him to return these threads to their old UTY format, which was really only acknowledged with a different image for one thread before we went back to the same format.
It’s time for a proper Undertale Yellow thread on this board. We’re long overdue for one at this point.

>>3860280
its healthier for the threads to be about fangames in general since we have dev anons actively posting stuff, and it doesn't preclude yellow discussion

>>3860280
I gotta agree with >>3860282 , UTY had it's sole time in the spotlight, and it still gets it's time in the spotlight every weekend with those /v/ threads, so having the /vrpg/ threads be more generally fangame oriented rather than being centered around UTY specifically just makes sense.
I say this as a huge yellowfag, the other games need their space for discussion without being considered "off topic".

>>3860280
You can feel free to make the next thread be a yellow thread. Nothing is stopping you from making the new thread yourself.

Not that the Op matters much. People would still discuss other fangames just as much if it an Undertale Yellow Op, and they still discuss UTY just as much now as they would if it were a UTY Op.

>>3860285
if anything the continued effort on fan works is a large part of what keeps the threads from getting stale. brings in new content, makes things feel alive. I still have not gotten over my absolute obsession over yellow but these are good things

>>3860273
This is the second or third fastest thread on this board. I don't think you have any room to complain about the thread being slow.

>>3860273
I hate the pace that modern 4chan has gotten people used to. tons of boards used to move at about the speed this thread does.

>>3860287
Yeah, so it's good for them to have their own place, that being here.
Even if I honestly don't actually care for basically any of them at this point, it's nice to see new stuff being made.

>>3860289
Modern 4chan? I was under the impression that a select few boards get the lion's share of traffic with most going at around this one's pace, and that it has been this way for many years

>>3860290
>even if I honestly don't actually care for basically any of them at this point
Nta, but any reason in particular for that?

>>3860292
yes but even the "fast boards" were a fraction of the speed they are now. I'm saying that the pace of this thread is more on par with what an average board was like 18 years ago. I know, smaller internet and all but I'm saying a pace like this is 'healthy'.

>>3860295
not counting /b/ though actually, /b/ was already pretty out of control in 2007

>>3860292
>>3860295
I mean not to kick you guys in the nads but like you know most of 4chan's traffic like most of the internet is like a handful of autists spamming garbage using proxies?
Especially after the shart knocked 4chan offline.
Although I will say there's probably more human traffic in Deltarune threads considering they soft banned it on /v/ and have been intentionally letting an autist shit up the threads. No point in doing that if it wasn't inorganic as fuck like the rest of the catalog.

>>3860108
What fan games are out there? Are there any good ones?
Huge fan of Undertale, not a fan of Deltarune in the slightest.
Played a few Undertale fan games, but they didn't really add much or seemed unfinished.
Also, no porn parodies, not my thing. Thanks in advance.

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>>3860293
Not really, just none of the fangames really catch my eye at this point. To be fair, I also didn't really care about UTY until it was finished, at which point I was just kinda curious to see how the first full-length UT fangame turned out after so long in development (it still surprises me that UTY took as long to make as TNM for Deus Ex did, but I digress), and I ended up really liking it, so it's not out of the question that any of the fangames featured in these threads might end up being something I'll like, but I'm not really holding my breath.
I guess Naranja looks cool from what I've seen, but that's largely because it's the only one that hasn't activated my master-level autism by having some kind of small technical lore/presentation problem, so I guess it's moreso just the one fangame I'm the least angry at for technical reasons, rather than actually being particularly interested in.

>>3860300
The main one is Undertale Yellow. Its fully featured and about the same length as Undertale. Its writing is worse (noticeably so towards the end) but the art and music is just as good if not better than Undertale's. Its really good for what it is.

The only other completed full length fangame is Outertale. I haven't played it, but I haven't heard good things about it. Apparently its just Undertale, but in space, with bad writing.

The rest are either still in development, or are single fight games.

Of the single fight games Undertale Red, A Different Snowgrave, The Upper Hand, and One Hell Of A Ride are good. There are loads more than those, but I'm not an expert on single fight fangames. There's also a shitload of AU fight fangames which vary wildly in quality.

Of the unfinished ones, Wildfire, that Underfell take the name of which escapes me, Deltarune Yellow, and Naranja have playable demos and are pretty good. There's also Deltatraveler, which has a lot of stuff playable, but its writing is genuinely awful. It has good music and a lot of skilled artists, but the writing absolutely ruins it.

A lot of devs (myself included) also like to use these threads to discuss development, so a lot of unfinished games with no demos get discussed here too.

>>3860301
So what do you think about the idea that Toby probably cares less about following his own lore than we do?

>>3860304
Undertale Yellow seems pretty exciting. I'm just worried, like with most prequels, it opens up the story, but the outcome is already known.
Don't want it spoiled and will check it out now. It's 250mb, about.
Undertale Hype, and thanks

>>3860311
Fair warning, the writing takes a nose dive at the very end. The devs were in a rush to get it finished and didn't want to give things a second pass, and the ending really needed a second pass. I won't tell you what happens, just be prepared for one of the endings to be genuinely disappointing with its writing quality.

>>3860305
How exactly has Toby broken his own lore?
I'm sure you'll cite something from the 10th anniversary streams and say that means he doesn't care about his own world, but ignoring how that would be a complete misunderstanding of what he actually meant with those streams, nothing Toby's done with Deltarune is in any kind of violation of previously existing lore, since DR mostly hasn't touched anything from UT directly, only either building off ideas from UT, or just doing it's own thing with it's own world, which is also fine.
DR is free to explore new ideas because it takes place in a different universe from UT, even if it shares some kind of general existence with it somehow.
Fangames that take place in pre-existing universes are different, because they have to actually adhere to the rules and style of the universe they're trying to be a part of, but so many fangames don't even try to maintain basic consistency with the source material. And yeah, taking creative liberties and making new ideas based on a source material is far from an inherently bad thing, but if you have to actively break so many previously established rules of a universe in order to tell your story in that universe, you probably aren't telling a very good story for that universe.
Just look at how many people hate on Deltatraveler for it's character writing. No one really has a problem with the basic concept, since it sorta fits the idea of other worlds existing which has already been brought up in UTDR, but none of the characters actually act like themselves, so none of it works. It breaks the established standards or "rules" for how these characters should/would act, so no one can take it's story seriously as a result, it's just too distracting.
I have similar problems with Deus Ex: Human Revolution, but I've talked about that in previous threads, so I think everyone gets the idea.

>>3860311
Don't listen to >>3860314 , the writing's fine if you have above an elementary-grade reading level.
Don't go in expecting to have a bad time, just play the game, exercise basic analytical thought, and feel free to come back here and give your thoughts on the game when you're done.
Hope you have a good time.

To the other anon, don't read this post, it has spoilers. And you should probably leave the thread right now since its going to have loads of major spoilers discussed.
>>3860316
I wasn't talking about Kanako . I wasn't trying to dissuade him from playing either, I just always like to be warned when I'm going to step on a narrative landmine, so I like to extend that courtesy to other people.

>>3860322
>I wasn't trying to dissuade him from playing either, I just always like to be warned when I'm going to step on a narrative landmine, so I like to extend that courtesy to other people.
I wasn't necessarily directly referring to you-know-who, it could also be applied to you-know-what also.
Anyway, I can respect not wanting other people to experience disappointment at parts of a story you thought weren't great, but it's not exactly a great thing to do to say, "hey, hope you enjoy the game you're about to go into blind, just wanted to warn you that the entire ending fucking sucks and was really badly written, so don't get too attached to anything, alright?".
Like, let the guy experience the game for himself, it's kinda hard to really enjoy something when one of the first things you hear going in is someone telling you it sucks.

>>3860315
>How exactly has Toby broken his own lore?
Nose nuzzle champs 98.

My point wasn't so much that he breaks his lore, but that he doesn't put much thought into it. Its just a means to an end, that end being a justification for the story and characters.

As far as the anniversary stream goes, I just took that as him telling us to have fun writing fanfiction, regardless of whether or not its any good. Remember that he got his start making really edgy Earthbound fanfiction.

>but so many fangames don't even try to maintain basic consistency with the source material.
Could you cite some examples? You've already given Deltatraveler, but its an easy whipping boy. Its just poorly made all around. Another example would help me to better understand what you mean.

>>3860324
>it's kinda hard to really enjoy something when one of the first things you hear going in is someone telling you it sucks.
I guess this is just a difference of taste. I tend to enjoy stories more when I'm warned beforehand about elements I really wouldn't like, so I can properly prepare myself for them.

>>3860330
>Nose nuzzle champs 98.
Elaborate? I mean that genuinely, I'm not immediately catching that one at the moment, explain what the issue is with that.
>Could you cite some examples?
Sure, a few. When I complain about consistency, I'm referring to more than just previously established lore, stuff like art style, presentation, mechanics, etc are all also factors in that. Hence my problems with Human Revolution.
For presentation and art style, I'd say Wildfire makes some pretty big changes to how something set in the UT world should look. UTY already had a few problems there, mostly with the main cast (except Clover, somehow) having actual complex shading and 16-bit styled sprites, while the rest of the game more or less matches UT's 8-bit styled art design, but from what I've seen of it, Wildfire just throws all that shit out the window in favor of more complex pixel art and much more blatant furry character designs. UTY also had an issue with some of the monster designs being more visually appealing than most monsters from UT, but that was really mostly because it was evident with the main cast of UTY in comparison to the main cast of UT, UTY still had a decent bit of more abstract or monstrous monster designs outside of it's main cast, and the original UT had it's fair share of furbait too, so I'm not particularly broken up about that, but Wildfire looks like it's going all-in on the furry OC designs, and it just feels really jarring.
To pick on a different game, that one purple soul fangame whose name I forget (something "reflection"? I dunno.) had some pretty major presentation problems, with the UI, overworld art design, and just generally everything about the game being so far removed from what UT looks like that I genuinely didn't realize it was meant to be a UT fangame until someone pointed it out as such.

>>3860300
In case you're still around, what don't you like about Deltarune?
I ask this to every detractor I come across since I'm making a fangame that tells an alternate scenario with the same premise, so I'd like to know what I can do differently to potentially make it more appealing.

>>3860336
>Elaborate? I mean that genuinely, I'm not immediately catching that one at the moment, explain what the issue is with that.
The issue is that the game takes place well after 201X, but it also implies that Dogamy and Dogaressa lost against Asgore and Toriel in the 1998 Nose Nuzzle championship, which would make the dogs over a century old, which doesn't really make sense considering that they're just common monsters. That was more of a joke answer though.

I actually think Undertale's lore is pretty consistent. It just achieves that by not going into detail about things unless it has to. That's a fair a solution, but it does illustrate that the lore is a secondary concern that only exists to serve the characters, themes, and gameplay.

>Those examples
Fair. Though now I'm curious what you think of the other fangames, and why Naranja specifically is the only one you like.

>>3860330
As far as lore problems go, I don't actually know too much about the lore for the fangames that typically get brought up in these threads, since I mostly want to wait until/if any of them actually come out to sit down and experience them, but I do recall seeing some blue soul fangame at UnderEvent or something that had Flowey in it which made no goddamn sense because the fangame was saying that the blue soul protagonist was the first fallen human after Chara, and Flowey was only made relatively recently before the events of UT. I haven't heard too much about that fangame recently though, so I figure it probably got mocked to death on the basis of the people making it not actually understanding the story they were trying to make a prequel to.
Also, this isn't really an issue when it comes to consistency per se, but I'm kinda personally not very interested in either of the DRY takes, primarily because so much of their stories seem to revolve around "expanding" on character relationships from UTY that were, in actuality, completely nonexistent.
Namely the relationship between Martlet and Cole, and Cole and Kanako.
I already talked at length about how Clover and Martlet's relationship in UTY was completely forced outside of pacifist, because every other route has them spending maybe a handful of minutes together at most, and those handful of minutes may have been spent desperately trying to kill each other depending on the route, but I won't go too deep into that in this thread, unless provoked.
As for Clover and Kanako, what relationship? Neither one of them ever interacts with the other, or is even on-screen at the same time as each other, and they're both such complete non-characters that trying to write either one of them as having a more direct personal role in the story outside of being the player character or an Uncle Ben effectively requires writing an entirely new character from scratch, which kinda defeats the point of them being Clover and Kanako.

>>3860341
>The issue is that the game takes place well after 201X, but it also implies that Dogamy and Dogaressa lost against Asgore and Toriel in the 1998 Nose Nuzzle championship, which would make the dogs over a century old, which doesn't really make sense considering that they're just common monsters. That was more of a joke answer though.
Ah, that. Funnily enough, I actually do have an answer as to why that could be lore consistent, but it's so schizophrenic and completely off the wall that you'd never believe me.
>Naranja specifically is the only one you like.
Like I said, it's not necessarily the case that I actually particularly care for it, it's just the one that hasn't violated some technical standard for what UT's style is, so it gets a pass from me.
For now.
As for other fangames, while I do actively want to see more fangames get finished and have their time in the spotlight, even the ones that have violated some obscure technicality, I probably won't play too many of them if their stories/writing is too distracting for me to immerse myself in their worlds.
This also includes internal consistency. I remember I gave the Oldentale guy or whoever a hard time about that, since he brought up the idea of some monster in his story having the ability to make a giant floating rock city entirely of his own ability, while also having the monster king at the time of the war be a huge tyrant, and somehow *not* have that tyrannical king who wants to oppose the humans force that monster into teaching other monsters how to use that power to kinetically bombard humanity with giant rocks dropped on them from the sky.
There were other problems with what he said in that thread, like monster israel, or the wh40k ork technology, all of which I also had (and still have) problems with, but you get the idea.
Oldentale guy, if you're reading this, this isn't really a jab at you personally, and I'm not even saying you'd have to change any of those things, these are just examples.

>>3860343
>which kinda defeats the point of them being Clover and Kanako.
Does it? I see a lack of detail as an opportunity to write a new character. Kanako here is basically in the same position Clover was in with the original Undertale, nothing but a footnote to someone else's story. So now we get to see what she's like.

That's what DRY is to me, a chance to get to know all the characters we weren't able to in UTY. Sure they didn't actually exist as characters beyond what we saw of them, but the illusion of them did, and that's what all writing is, the illusion of something more. It tricks our minds into thinking something is there. So I think its fair game to make a game all about exploring those unexplored characters from UTY.

Same goes for Gizmo, Chujin, Sadie, and Integrity. All these are little more than set dressing and back story elements in UTY, but here we get to see their story.

>>3860346
>Kanako here is basically in the same position Clover was in with the original Undertale,
UTY didn't actually do too much with Clover as a character, and that's a good thing. Outside of their devotion to the idea of justice, Clover can largely be summed up as "a dedicated young man with no characteristics". I'd attach that screenshot here if I had it.
Anyway, the thing about Kanako for me is that because her entire purpose in UTY was as an Uncle Ben type character who exists only to build up other members of the cast (which no, isn't a problem no matter how badly some people here misread the story and got mad at the game for not living up to the expectations they made up), so seeing more of her just isn't interesting to me because she just doesn't have anything going on with her character outside of being related to a member of the main cast.
Like I said, she's such a non-character that trying to give her a more direct presence in a story outside of what she already had requires that you write an entirely new character from scratch, at which point you aren't writing "Kanako", you're writing an OC wearing Kanako's face, and that's just not a premise I care for.
It's one thing to take a character who's personality, goals, abilities, etc we already know and put them into a new context because then we can speculate on how they might behave based on how we already know them to behave in the situations we've seen them in, but taking a character we have basically no information on and putting them in a new context just doesn't work as well, because there's nothing to go off of. "Kanako" in DRY isn't Kanako, she's some generic deuteragonist/love interest to a character she really has no business being associated with, she has nothing in common with the Kanako from UTY because the Kanako from UTY has nothing to go off of.
To put it this way, we genuinely know more about W.D Gaster from the original UT, entirely excluding DR, than we know about Kanako in UTY.

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>>3860345
>I actually do have an answer as to why that could be lore consistent, but it's so schizophrenic and completely off the wall that you'd never believe me.
I do too, but I know there's no way that was Toby's intended reading of that line. I like to think that the trophy in Asgore's house refers to the 1998 championship, while Dogamy and Dogaressa won second place in the 2X98 championship, while a couple we don't meet got first.

>Oldentale guy, if you're reading this

I feel like I just didn't get a chance to properly explain myself with that stuff. The city isn't so much floating as it is falling in reverse, and the only thing keeping it from going into space is a bunch of chains holding it to the ground. And the thing making it fall in reverse is the giant city sized magic machine that wouldn't be feasible to mass produce.

The king also isn't as much of a despot as he came across in that thread. He's not a big fuzzy pushover like Asgore, but he is generally well liked and a nice guy. I have been considering making him the son of the king who conquered the other monster kingdoms I feel like that works better with the chronology of things too.

>like monster israel,
That one I really could have explained better. I mainly did the "all the monsters from around the world in one kingdom" thing to justify all these different cultures being within walking distance of each other, and the original home of the monsters thing was mainly to tie into a major plot element I had planned involving the Delta Rune and the original meaning of it. I later leaned into it more because I thought the monsters dying in the same place they were born was poetic, and of course because I think the tragic story of the elves in the Lord Of The Rings and Silmarillion was really cool. if you meant stuff relating specifically to the angel. Its not some sort of god or deity like we would think of it

>>3860345
>>3860357
Sorry for info dumping, but I still regret improperly explaining things in that other discussion

Continuing about the angel, I promise it is not what you thought it was. Also a lot of the finer details of this are still up in the air, as those are minor set dressing for really late game stuff. So a lot of it is subject to change

>the wh40k ork technology,
Its not ork technology. I guess if I were to use a 40k analogy, this would be like the dark age of technology. This is the monsters at their height. The best they've ever been technologically. The destruction caused by the war and the severe brain drain caused by all their best and brightest dying, their cities being destroyed, their population being reduced to a tiny fraction of its former size, them being trapped underground for millennia, and the world simply losing most of its magic lead to them losing almost all of their technology, and only just now getting back up to that level by the time of Undertale.

>>3860357
Oh, hello again. Funny how that happens, eh?
>falling in reverse, and the only thing keeping it from going into space is a bunch of chains holding it to the ground.
Ah, I think I've heard a similar idea before. I'm told there's something like that in some story called the "Edge Chronicles", according to my brother, but I've never read it myself, so you'll have to be the judge of that I guess.
>And the thing making it fall in reverse is the giant city sized magic machine that wouldn't be feasible to mass produce.
Even with that being the case, I still feel like that would be a really good threat to use as a deterrent, since I could pretty easily imagine just letting it build some distance between itself and a target, before making it very quickly fall in not-reverse, effectively wiping out it's target and anything in a however-many-mile radius.
>I mainly did the "all the monsters from around the world in one kingdom" thing to justify all these different cultures being within walking distance of each other
Okay, I'm gonna stop picking on the idea of it being israel, but I do still have a problem with the idea on the basis that it still kinda conflicts with the opening of UT saying that humans and monsters both "ruled over earth", since having only a single city to your empire's name doesn't exactly constitute "ruling over earth". I'm pretty sure the people living in Taiwan don't consider themselves to be "ruling" china anymore either.
Also, I don't necessarily have a problem with the ruler of the monsters doing stuff because of some kind of divine inspiration (even though I still personally feel like the monster king should be Asgore), but I feel like it's pretty easy to draw comparisons when that divine inspiration was to gather all his people to a single land that this deific entity apparently promised to them however long ago. Like, that's a pretty surface level comparison, it's not very hard to see.

>>3860351
Haven't you ever wondered what Uncle Ben was like? Wanted to spend a comic with him? Or what about Batman's parents? Sure they aren't the focus of the Batman comics, but wouldn't a comic that does focus on them be neat? I thought that one where Bruce Wayne died and Thomas Wayne became Batman was pretty cool.

That's what this is. Its the "What if the story were about them" comic.

> you're writing an OC wearing Kanako's face, and that's just not a premise I care for.
Fair enough I suppose. If you don't like it, that's just how it is. I just think turning a non-character into a character is a fun. Its like getting to go down into and walk around all those background areas in UT that you never got to explore in the game.

>>3860359
>Its not ork technology.
The magic technology, you get the idea.
Honestly, I think the idea of having technology powered by what would be considered magic is actually a pretty cool idea when done right, my main issue here is that the UT opening seems to depict the Human-Monster war as having happened hundreds, or potentially thousands of years ago, given that both sides of the conflict are both depicted using only medieval weaponry and fantasy equipment, so it was just pretty hard to take it seriously when you brought up the idea of monsters having mechs at this point, since I'm not sure how monsterkind possibly could've lost if they were deploying NEXTs on the battlefield against humans with swords and spears.
Like, physical strength between you and your opponent doesn't really matter if you have an armored core and they have a metal sword, right?

>>3860211
Kill yourself already

>>3860362
>Its the "What if the story were about them" comic.
Also, that's not technically the case here, since DR's story has indicated that pretty much the entire story relating to the characters, the prophecy, the bunker, etc, are all somehow related to whatever Gaster's doing, with everyone outside of his apparent interests not being as important as those explicitly mentioned in the prophecy. So, the *actual* answer to "what if the story was about them?" is "they would do nothing of any consequence and live entirely normal lives because the actual story is happening one town over and the guy who has control over this world doesn't care about them", because I'm told neither DRY take is going to have anything to do with Gaster, there really isn't any actual reason for there to be anything to do with dark worlds or fountains or any of that in the context of a DRY take.
So to be more accurate, it's "what if we forced the story to be about them despite them not actually being relevant here?". That's the issue. It's a bit like if UTY tried to make all that stuff that was going on with Ceroba and the serum project important to Frisk's journey specifically, that story is too centered around a particular character and setting for all that other stuff to just be inserted like that, it just doesn't work as well.
I think a DRY take could actually work rather well if it had a good enough reason to tie into the story of DR somehow, like the main antagonist of DRY actually trying to stop the implied scratch that's going to happen at the end of DR, only for Cole and Kanako to stop them, not realizing that they've effectively doomed themselves into becoming their UT counterparts when the scratch happens, but most people here vehemently disagree with them being doomed by the narrative, so I doubt that would be appreciated.

>>3860363
>if you have an armored core and they have a metal sword, right?
I wonder, considering that mettaton is a ghost piloting a robot basically and you can fuck him up nice and proper.

>>3860369
His EX form is blatantly described in-universe as being weak as shit to physical attacks, his base form is apparently invincible to damage from the player, to the point that even the yellow soul shot just bounces off him.
Yeah, I think a magic powered AC could probably do some damage.

>>3860369
His metal box form says hes impervious to damage, and he can still shock you, albeit for like 1HP. Surely monsters at their prime can cook up something much more deadly. And speaking of ghost monsters, why not just build giant golems and have one make it their body?

>>3860110
what do you mean bearing and foxlace events?

>>3860371
NTA you were replying to, but yeah, you've got the right idea. Mettaton actually shocks you for more than 1 damage, but more importantly, if a fairly incompetent scientist like Alphys could make something like him when she really wasn't even trying to make a particularly efficient human-killing machine, imagine what someone could make if they actually tried. Nigh-invincible weapons platforms, absolutely shredding their opponents to pieces across the battlefield.
Seriously, if monsters could just make shit like that, how did they ever lose when their enemies wielded metal swords and spears?

>>3860360
>Edge Chronicles"
I haven't read it either.

>since I could pretty easily imagine just letting it build some distance between itself and a target, before making it very quickly fall in not-reverse,
The biggest issue with that is moving it. This thing is chained to the ground, and the instant you detach those chains its going to fall into space. I imagine he could probably make some kind of specialized machine to drag it to its target, but that's going to be extremely slow and vulnerable to attack. And since the humans are largely nomadic, and wage their war like the mongols, they don't have any cities worth wasting a one of a kind technological marvel and potential Manhattan project equivalent to destroy.

>since having only a single city to your empire's name doesn't exactly constitute "ruling over earth".
They have quite a few cities in the kingdom. A lot of them have been destroyed by the time of the game, but they did exist. Even in the game you go to multiple cities. The capital city itself is really more like 4 cities in one.

There's also the fact the monsters are in pretty serious denial of their decline by this point. They don't want to admit that they're washed up has beens of a race, and that the new kids on the block have basically replaced them. They did in history rule the whole Earth, all seven continents, but they don't anymore. And the war itself destroyed a lot of their history texts. Most of what was written down was done by the survivors, who were huffing whatever copium they could find to keep their will to live.

>even though I still personally feel like the monster king should be Asgore
but then you couldn't have a sick ass, no holds barred, boss fight with him. It'd have to be a forced loss or a non-fight like in UTY

>>3860372
I've rewritten some of the story events, most beats are still the same but bearing's motivations are now different and foxlace is a bit more involved with the chapter's plot

>>3860360
>Like, that's a pretty surface level comparison, it's not very hard to see
But its not like they have a monopoly on the idea. Most pagan or folk religions have a similar concept of "this land is mine because my God/Gods gave it to me" or "My great ancestors claimed this land, and that is why my people live here". Plus its super common in fantasy. Dwarves do it, Elves do it, even Humans do it sometimes.

> since I'm not sure how monsterkind possibly could've lost if they were deploying NEXTs on the battlefield against humans with swords and spears.
First of all, they're not NEXTs or Armored Cores. They're clunky walking steam engines with stubby legs that can't go fifteen minutes without needing to be recharged (by physically turning a crank for a few hours). These things are impractical in the hands of basically anyone except their creator, who can only use them because he's a boss monster with super powerful magic, and has a giant magic collector machine to draw extra power from.

>Like, physical strength between you and your opponent doesn't really matter if you have an armored core and they have a metal sword, right?
You ever play Metal Gear Rising?

>>3860367
DRY isn't tied in to DR's narrative at all. They might not even be in the same universe. I think your problem is that you've misread the title. Deltarune Yellow isn't "Undertale Yellow for Deltarune" its "Deltarune for Undertale Yellow". Its UTY's alternate story, not a prequel to Deltarune.

>>3860367
this >>3860380 , I'm making DRY1 just because I wanted more kanaclover content to be made because I find it cute, and I also had my own idea of what I wanted DR to be before chapters 3 and 4 and I will make DRY be based more on that
it won't be directly tied to DR besides maybe a reference here and there but I even came up with my own way for why dark worlds exist and how the rules are different from DR, it is pretty much a original game with DR battle system and art style. I also think UTY somewhat wasted some characters so I want to kinda give them a second chance
and I am actually making an original game based on some ideas I got from DRY, but I still want to finish DRY both for myself and for the kanaclover fans as I mentioned (it is why it only has 5 chapters instead of 7)

>>3860375
>The biggest issue with that is moving it. This thing is chained to the ground, and the instant you detach those chains its going to fall into space.
Alright, now we're talking physics, so I've got an idea.
Why don't we not move it, and just let the earth itself move until we're ready to drop the rock? Here's the idea, we get a second rock of equivalent mass to the first rock, and hook it up with some similar magic to make it fall in reverse, and chain it to the first rock. Then, we cut the chains, and let them rise to a certain altitude. Probably somewhere in orbit, so as to actually let the earth rotate underneath the two masses. Given that you've said the mass "falls in reverse", I'm going to assume it simply moves in the opposite direction from which the force of the earth's gravity acts on it, which means it isn't being propelled the way a normal machine like a rocket would. This also means that it wouldn't have to worry about actually maintaining an orbit to stay at whatever altitude we need it at, but we'll get to that. Once we have the rocks at the desired height, turn one of the rock's magic off, causing the force of gravity to affect it normally again. This rock, having equivalent normal mass to the other rock's effective negative-mass, will cause the pair to maintain their altitude, because the pair will have equivalent forces pulling them towards the planet, and pushing them away simultaneously.
Now, any object traveling away from the surface of the earth will eventually no longer be directly above the position it initially launched from due to how tangents work with the rotation of the earth, so now all we have to do is wait for the earth to rotate such that our desired target is underneath the pair of rocks, and then turn off the magic on the rock that's still being pushed away.
All you have to do is adjust the height to make sure you don't cause a mass extinction, and there you go, ye olde magic kinetic bombardment.

>>3860370
That's against a level 1 child though. Notice how in genocide Mettaton never fights you in his box form. That might be because he's afraid your 99999 damage will overpower his 999 DF. Just imagine what a level 20 adult would do, or multiple high level adults.
>>3860371
I think with enough determination you can kill anything. If you want to kill a ghost bad enough, you will. So yeah they would give some humans trouble, but there would still be humans out there that could kill them.
>>3860373
>Seriously, if monsters could just make shit like that, how did they ever lose when their enemies wielded metal swords and spears?
The mechs had a severe power generation problem. They simply couldn't run for long enough on current energy sources (magic batteries charged by physically winding) to be practical.

>>3860380
Well, in my own defense, I see people here talking about DRY and DR taking place in the same continuity all the time, so I feel like that was a pretty easy mistake to make. Also the fact that UTY is called UTY and is, in fact, meant to take place in the same continuity as UT.
>>>3860381
Meh, fair enough I guess.
I still think it's a bit of a misnomer to say that these characters are being given a "second chance", since again, most of them have so little character going on that you pretty much have to come up with entirely new characters for them to be in order for them to actually have a direct role in the story, at which point they aren't really "themselves" anymore, but whatever.
I like hmofa too, this just feels a little contrived is all.

>>3860382
I suppose I could come up with an explanation in universe of why that can't work (maybe anything touching the rock is considered either part of the rock or part of the earth, so it can't be held down by weights, only by being directly attached to the Earth), but at this point I think the best answer is Tolken's "Because then there wouldn't be a story".

At a certain point, leaps of logical and logical inconsistencies have to be handwaved for the sake of telling a good story. No one during the course of playing the game is going to have the idea you just laid out there. Hell they probably wouldn't even think of dropping the rocks on people if it were normal anti gravity, the same way most people didn't think of hyper space ramming until it was pointed out to them.

>>3860385
All stories are contrived. All characters are just OCs made up by the writer. And any time someone makes a prequel or a spinoff, they're making OCs out of irrelevant background characters from the source material. That's just how fiction works, and all that really matters is that its a fun story.

>>3860383
>Notice how in genocide Mettaton never fights you in his box form.
That's because he knows better than to engage you directly at first, and also because he (and Alphys) thought his NEO form would be able to take care of you, given that it was (supposedly) much more purposely built to kill humans.
>That might be because he's afraid your 99999 damage will overpower his 999 DF.
That's not quite how defense seems to work in UT. Even if a monster has extremely disproportionately high stats compared to yours, you can always do *some* damage to them by attacking, such as with Photoshop Flowey. (Asriel and the amalgamates are the exceptions, having infinite defense and undefined defense respectively)
Mettaton is one of the only enemies you just flat-out can't damage like that in his base form, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that he might've been able to take you down in that form alone.
>I think with enough determination you can kill anything.
I'm not so sure about that, Frisk's determined enough to resist dying against Asriel, but still not determined enough to be able to damage him at all, so I think there's an upper limit with DT before everyone just starts being at about the same level as each other.
>The mechs had a severe power generation problem.
Monsters like Alphys can make electricity as part of their attacks (we see this when she block some of Flowey's bullets in true pacifist at the end of the game), or alternatively you could use fire monsters like Grillby or Heats Flamesman as living energy sources from their heat energy.
I bet Grillby could make a killing selling energy from boiled water.
>magic batteries charged by physically winding
As someone who's studying to be an electrical engineer, what? I guess you could just say it's using a similar kind of technology that the Core uses to turn geothermal energy into magic energy, but I figure at that point you may as well just use any other power source, since you'd only get out what you put in.

>>3860387
Yeah, I get that, but what I'm saying is it's a little bit weird to say "I'm writing this story to see what these characters would *really* be like!", and then take characters with almost no defined characteristics or relationship, or any major details whatsoever, and write entirely new personalities, supporting details, etc for them.
Like, again, you aren't "giving them a second chance", you've just written entirely new characters wearing those other character's faces.
Sans in DR is a good example of what taking a pre-existing character and dropping them into a different context is actually like, since we've seen enough of how Sans acts in certain situations to be able to get a decent idea of how he might act in other situations, so his character is more consistently "him" between DR and UT, in comparison to say, Monster Kid in UT and Monster Teen in DR.
Clover is largely a blank slate, and Kanako is effectively a non-character, so asking "what would happen if the story was about them?" isn't really the actual question you're asking, because neither one of them actually has any sort of defined characteristics that you could expand upon. The real question being asked in the DRY takes is "what if we had a DR style story starring some original characters who look like the characters from UTY?".
>any time someone makes a prequel or a spinoff, they're making OCs out of irrelevant background characters from the source material.
Not necessarily. Most of the characters mentioned or seen in the prequel trilogy are never even mentioned in the OT, and most returning characters already had fairly well defined personalities to them, so it's easy to imagine how they may have acted many years prior. You can make prequels and spinoffs without making your characters feel weird and forced, they just have to be actual characters, and not voiceless protagonists and Uncle Bens.

>>3860388
>so I don't think it's a stretch to say that he might've been able to take you down in that form alone.
I also don't think its a stretch to say the contrary. Its a grey area.
>Frisk's determined enough to resist dying against Asriel, but still not determined enough to be able to damage him at all,
That was pacifist Frisk. He was determined to spare everyone. Or course he wouldn't want to hurt Asriel.
>Monsters like Alphys can make electricity as part of their attacks
I know, that's how they power these things to begin with. It just takes a lot to power these things. They are very power hungry. If Alphys were to try and power one of things, she would have to spend a few hours charging it just to get a few minutes of run time.
>As someone who's studying to be an electrical engineer, what?
Its fantasy, it doesn't have to make mechanical sense. These things are meant to evoke the feeling of clocks and wind up toys, so that's how they operate. They have big turn keys that you have to spend ages winding to get them to operate. I suppose I could have said spring, but there's not a literal spring in there.

One thing I want to make very clear is that they aren't electrical. I guess if I had to invent a term for it, instead of using magical electricity, they would use magical kinetic energy. What is that specifically? I don't know, and Toby didn't know what magical electricity was either. These things are closer to automatons and seige engines than they are to robots.

>>3860389
That seems like a really uncharitable way to look at it. The way I see it, I'm getting to learn who these characters are alongside seeing their stories. Sure they probably aren't what the original writers had in mind (if they had anything in mind at all) but what happens out of universe gets dealt with by suspension of disbelief.

Kanako was a concept in UTY, one that just wasn't elaborated on at all. This is putting a personality and story to that name. Its like the clone wars in Star Wars. We hear them mentioned as set dressing in the original, then in the prequels we get to see them turned into an actual thing.

>>3860392
>I also don't think its a stretch to say the contrary. Its a grey area.
Eh, sure.
>That was pacifist Frisk. He was determined to spare everyone. Or course he wouldn't want to hurt Asriel.
That same Frisk is also able to damage Flowey just fine even when he has the six human souls, but Asriel's literally invincible, so I think it's probably fair to say that Frisk wouldn't have been able to do too much to him even if they were really trying to either.
>Its fantasy, it doesn't have to make mechanical sense.
I was talking moreso physically, since you're either saying that these things only have wind-up power generation, which would be stupid if they take so long to charge (imagine how much energy it would take to power a car's engine through wind-up power alone, for instance), or they output more power than they receive, which would violate the laws of thermodynamics and cause lots of problems I don't even wanna think about.
I dunno, wouldn't it make more sense to say they use some kind of magic material for power, or as I suggested earlier, have them run on fire monsters? It could be like how the fire nation in Avatar uses their firebending to make their machines go, the ability to just *make* energy on the fly could be really useful if you do it a certain way.
Maybe those glowing crystals found in the underground could be useful, they certainly give off a decent bit of light energy.

>>3860394
>I'm getting to learn who these characters are alongside seeing their stories.
But that's the thing, that's not what's happening. Like, I get it, I really do, I understand wanting to see more of characters you like doing cool things, but when the characters in question have so little going on in the first place, you're not "learning" about them or "expanding on" them, you're just making entirely new characters and calling them those other characters.
>Its like the clone wars in Star Wars. We hear them mentioned as set dressing in the original, then in the prequels we get to see them turned into an actual thing.
Actually, the Clone Wars were first elaborated on in some books that came out before the prequel trilogy, the PT was technically a massive retcon because it entirely changed what the Clone Wars were depicted as in those books into something completely different.
For the best, might I add, but still. And anyway, the OT itself did at least contain some details about what the Clone Wars entailed and how they related to certain specific characters and events in the OT (Obi Wan and Anakin being comrades in the wars, Anakin's fall to the dark side happening at some point towards the end, the Jedi being involved, the Clone Wars' conclusion coinciding with the end of the republic and the beginning of the "dark times" and the empire, etc), so even with as little information about the Clone Wars as the OT gave us, we can still put together some bits and pieces that let us imagine what they may have been like, and how they affected the general state of the galaxy.
Kanako doesn't have that at all. She's the kid of two other characters in the story, she had some friends around the dunes who've noticed she's not around anymore, she wanted to be helpful and got herself killed in the process, that's it. That's all we know. She is as generic as a generic child character can get, almost literally no characteristics whatsoever.

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>>3860399
what's wrong with IMAGINING how kanako would be if she grew up instead of being condemned to alphys' sex dungeon for the rest of eternity?

>>3860395
Monster's bodies are made out of magic, and they can use it freely. A fire monster is just using magic to make fire shaped bullets. Any monster could do the same if they wanted to. The only difference is that a fire monster's body is also fire shaped. So they are doing it like the fire nation. It just so happens that their "bending" really isn't enough for this task.

The winding itself is again, to evoke the idea of these being wind up toys or crank powered machines. For an in universe explanation, the winding is just a slow and deliberate way of channeling the monster's natural magic into the machine's battery/spring coil/fly wheel. Similar to how you would wind something IRL instead of beating it with a hammer to charge it with mechanical energy. Bullets are the "beating it with a hammer"

The point of these things is that they're meant to be impressive when you first see them, but impractical once you really examine them. They're prototypes missing one critical component.

>crystals
The way I'm handling them, they're more for channeling magic than holding it. The underground just happens to be lousy with magic, which is why the crystals do things like glow. So these things probably do include the crystals or something that operates on the same principle.

>>3860400
Nothing.
Imagine whatever you want, I'm just saying that I feel like it's pretty forced to flat-out invent new personalities and traits for these "characters" to have in order to justify telling a story about them.
And again, you're not even really imagining "ow kanako would be if she grew up", because again, what character traits of hers are you actually basing your depiction of her on?
Imagine if the prequel trilogy came first, and there was no original trilogy to get information of. What do you "imagine" Luke Skywalker is going to be like when he grows up? Based entirely on what we see of him in Revenge of the Sith? What character traits do you have to base your ideas on, what is there to go off of?
Anything you could imagine wouldn't be "what Luke would be like when he grows up", it would be an entirely new character that you're just projecting onto Luke, since he wouldn't have any actual information to go off of.
That's the same deal with Kanako.
DRY "Kanako" isn't Kanako, it's an entirely new character that you're just calling Kanako for the purposes of the story, it's not actually based on any previously defined character.

>>3860399
There is a Kanako in UTY, we just never learn anything about her in the game. I want to know who she is, what's she like. That's what DRY is. There's a concept there being expanded into an actual character.

> She is as generic as a generic child character can get, almost literally no characteristics whatsoever.
Same as the generic ass war that Obi Wan and Luke's father fought in. We know her name, who her parents were, what she did (died), and how her death lead Ceroba to where she is now.

>>3860403
I don't see how that's forced though. The story has left that blank character shaped space, which is practically an invitation to be filled in. So that's what he did. It only seems natural to me.

And even if its different from what the devs intended, all that matters is that it fits with what few details were presented.

>>3860404
>I want to know who she is, what's she like. That's what DRY is.
Well no, it isn't you've just gone and made an OC and called it Kanako.
Also, to put an end to this CW comparison, the important parts of the CW weren't about the war itself, but the events it influenced, and we already knew about those from the OT. Sure, the specifics of what the war really was were vague, but we know Obi Wan and Anakin fought in it, we know the Jedi were important in it and were destroyed sometime around its end, and we know the end of the war happened roughly around the fall of the republic and the rise of the empire.
*Those* were the important bits you needed to know, and the PT itself wasn't even really about the war itself, it was about elaborating on the events the war was related to.
That's the difference between the CW and Kanako, making up details for the CW is fine because the specifics of the war itself weren't as important as the events connected to it, but making up an entirely new character for Kanako is way more forced because you're making her take an active role in the story, of course her actual character details would matter, which is why the fact that she doesn't *have* any character details is so important.

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Guys just ignore what this anon says.
Pretty much he is "if the original creator didn't make it it is an OC and thus worthless" despite this going completely against what Toby meant with the 10th anniversary stream.
Unfortunately it is a somewhat common mindset, and is why some people just detest the idea of fangames even when sometimes the fangames surpass the official content (looking at pokemon).

>>3860405
>I don't see how that's forced though.
I'm saying it's forced because that's making an entirely new character and projecting it onto a pre-existing, but entirely undefined character, when it would make more sense to just make an entirely new character unrelated to Kanako at that point.
The only reason this is a thing to begin with is because people like shipping Clover and Kanako, despite neither one of them ever interacting or being on screen together literally ever, and the latter never knowing of the former's existence.
I don't know why people are so obsessed with the most nothing ship of all time, but it's a bizarrely pervasive phenomenon.

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>>3860280
I can tell you I haven't made every OP, multiple have just reposted the image while I've been asleep. I've been wanting to change up the OP but nothing of note in the fangame scene specifically has caught my attention to make something unique.

The change from Yellow to Fangames overall was born from a fear that these threads would get purged here too (obviously we know by now they won't), but like others have said, Yellow's had its time already. There's still weekly threads being made about Yellow on /v/ and being posted here, I think that's enough proof that Yellow isn't forgotten.

That being said, Yellow's anniversary is coming up this December. I can reuse the Yellow OP when we get close to that. Was the same done last year? It'd be a shame if it wasn't.

>>3860406
>Well no, it isn't you've just gone and made an OC and called it Kanako.
I fail to see a meaningful difference. Sure you keep saying these things, but I don't see how they matter.

> because you're making her take an active role in the story
The clone wars had two TV shows and a movie made about them. I think that's a pretty active role.

>which is why the fact that she doesn't *have* any character details is so important.
Then give her some. That's what I want. That's the appeal. To see this ghost of a character made into a real character with character details.

>>3860407
>"if the original creator didn't make it it is an OC and thus worthless"
I have literally been advocating for the creation of original characters this whole time, that's kinda been my point.
And my point hasn't even been that projecting characters onto characters that have literally nothing going on is "worthless" either, I'm saying it's forced, which it absolutely is.
Notice how I haven't actually been saying that DRY is inherently bad or anything? I'm saying it's super fucking contrived, and basically none of these characters have any reason to be the way they are in it, but you could still squeeze a decent story out of that if you tried, I just hope the overall writing is better than the justification for any of this being a thing in the first place.
As long as that last bit's fulfilled, it'll be fine, it'll just still be extremely forced.
Some parts of UTY were forced as hell, like Clover's connection to Martlet, but I still think UTY turned out pretty good.

>>3860409
>when it would make more sense to just make an entirely new character unrelated to Kanako at that point.
It wouldn't though. The whole goal here is defining the undefined character. The motive for doing it is that there's a Kanako with nothing besides a name and a sprite attached to her.

A wholly original OC is a separate thing that doesn't scratch the same itch.

>I don't know why people are so obsessed with the most nothing ship of all time,
They're two kids who got shafted hard in almost the same way in the same game. The similarities were there, alongside the desire to see them happy, so the natural conclusion is to make them kiss. Now they're both happy.

>>3860412
>I fail to see a meaningful difference.
My point being that you aren't "seeing what Kanako would've been like grown up", because the character you've written isn't actually based on any kind of foundation from the character it's supposedly based on, it's just a new character you're saying is another character.
>The clone wars had two TV shows and a movie made about them. I think that's a pretty active role.
Yeah, after the lore for the era had already been written and fleshed out, they didn't just jump straight into the CW right after the OT was done. Hell, they didn't even jump straight into the war in the prequels, we had to get through The Phantom Menace first. Unfortunately.
>To see this ghost of a character made into a real character with character details.
Yeah, I get that, but that's still not Kanako, it's an entirely new character that's just being called Kanako for the purpose of telling an hmofa story.

>>3860413
>I'm saying it's forced, which it absolutely is.
I still don't see how you can call that forced. It just seems like the natural conclusion to see a vague and undefined character and immediately imagine the rest of the character there. Its like a negative space drawing, my brain automatically fills in the gaps.
>I'm saying it's super fucking contrived
By that logic every single piece of fiction is contrived, because the writer has an idea and is constructing the elements of the world to make a story out of it. Whether its made to fit in with another story or wholly original makes no difference.

>>3860413
I mean I am making an original game with characters loosely based on UTY (like the protagonist duo being discount clover and kanako) and an entire new setting that still has 2 worlds like the dark and light world, but different, which I think would fit into your criteria a bit except it not being a fangame but its own original thing
but I still want to do DRY anyway because I like the UTY cast, even if I made absolutely no OC lightners, the only OCs in DRY1 are darkners, exactly because I wanted to explore more the cast of UTY, and sure, they won't be 1:1 to their UTY counterparts, but I still find it fun to mess with those (and its much easier to work with a pre existing base than make something completely from scratch)
I am just kinda confused at your idea of disliking people messing with pre existing characters in a fangame when a fangame by nature is already someone else messing with another person's property/ideas

>>3860416
>The motive for doing it is that there's a Kanako with nothing besides a name and a sprite attached to her.
That's the crux of all this. There's not *a* Kanako with nothing but a name and a sprite attached to her, that's *the* Kanako. That's all she is. That's all she's ever been. This isn't like Gaster, where people had bits and pieces of supporting details and information to go off of to make their own various ideas for what he's like, you're taking a character with literally a minute's worth of screentime and maybe 5 lines of dialogue, and getting way more attached to her than was ever intended. Kanako isn't an underused character that had more potential than the devs let her utilize, she's not a character at all. You could entirely edit her 1(one) scene out of UTY entirely, replace it with Ceroba just explaining what happened for whatever reason, and it literally wouldn't change anything. Kanako is a non-character, she is nothing at all. There is no more of her to see, no personality, no backstory, no motives, nothing, her entire purpose is to act as *someone else's* motivation.
This is like if you got super obsessed with seeing the "missed potential" behind Monster Kid in UT, because he was just such an underutilized character who really needed more room to grow.

>>3860420
>I still don't see how you can call that forced.
I'm calling it forced because the entire game exists primarily to create more content for a ship between two characters with literally no defined character to them at all. Like, if either one of these characters actually had any, say, personality, or traits, or chemistry between them, a lot more people would probably agree on how both of them actually act, rather than literally every single depiction of them being completely unrecognizable from each other.
Like, at this point you aren't even attached to their "characters", you just saw two child sprites and wanted to make them kiss because there's no one else they could possibly be paired with, and ignoring how weird that is in and of itself, it's still pretty fucking forced when you have to come up with an entire new story, world, and personalities for all of them to have just to make it work.

>>3860417
>ecause the character you've written isn't actually based on any kind of foundation from the character it's supposedly based on
Does it need to be? The only reason you have to worry about foundations is to not contradict previously established details. Here that isn't an issue since there aren't any. The story has handed us a blank page and said "draw a Kanako". Regardless of what we put there, it can't be wrong, because there's nothing to say otherwise.

>Yeah, I get that, but that's still not Kanako, it's an entirely new character that's just being called Kanako for the purpose of telling an hmofa story
That's an entirely artificial distinction you're making.

Since we're already using Star Wars examples. What about all the background characters from the movies that got expanded into actual characters in the tv shows and books? Are the just OCs the author called (background character) for the purposes of telling a Star Wars story? Kit Fisto, Commander Cody, Plo Koon, Aura Sing, Wedge Antilles, IG-88, all just OCs larping as the real characters. What if George comes back later and decides to turn some rando that he wrote as a nobody into an actual character? That's what he did with Jabba. The original Jabba in the movie, and the one he wrote the script for has almost nothing in common with the one we got in Return of the Jedi. Or what about all those side characters in the Clone Wars? He did a lot of writing for that?

Hell, what if Master Sword came back and made a Kanako game? Would that just be an OC too?

>>3860422
>I am just kinda confused at your idea of disliking people messing with pre existing characters in a fangame when a fangame by nature is already someone else messing with another person's property/ideas
Again, part of my point here, I *don't* have a problem with using pre-existing characters, when those characters actually have *character* to them, which Clover and Kanako don't.
Taking a character that actually has a defined role and personality to them and putting them in a new context can be interesting because then the general idea is to see how that character would behave in their new circumstance, but that only really works if that character actually has a defined personality to work with, because otherwise you're just writing an entirely new character not actually based on anything, which defeats the premise of "what if the story was about x character?".

>>3860424
> There is no more of her to see, no personality, no backstory, no motives, nothing, her entire purpose is to act as *someone else's* motivation.
And that's why I want there to be more. Its a blank space in an otherwise completed piece screaming at me to fill it in.

The only thing I can take from this is that you have no creativity or at least no drive to be creative when it comes to fiction. Otherwise you would at least get the idea of wanting to turn a nothing character into a something character.
>because he was just such an underutilized character who really needed more room to grow.
I actually do really hope we get to see more of Monster Kid and Snowy in Deltarune. I would even like it if they became party members like Berdly and Noelle.

>>3860425
I think we may just have fundamentally incompatible views of fiction. I look at these things and I see an opportunity to invent whatever character or story I want in that gap. I don't see nothing, I see a space for something. And because its a space, and its open, and naturally encourages me to have ideas, its inviting me to fill it in.

I see a random background character and I don't think "this is all there is to this character, and there is nothing more" instead I think "This character has more to him, I just have to figure out what it is". It doesn't matter how few details I'm given, just the existence of the character is enough.

>>3860426
>Does it need to be?
When the base premise of the story is "what if the story was about this character?', yeah, I'd say that character actually being a real character is probably important.
>That's an entirely artificial distinction you're making.
See the difference between "what if Sans was in this story?" versus "what if I made an entirely new character and called it Sans?". That's the distinction.
>something something george lucas
I promise you even the most no-name, obscure, barely noticed background character from the prequels has a more rigidly defined and displayed character than Kanako.
>That's what he did with Jabba.
The reason that worked with Jabba is because Jabba wasn't directly important on a *personal* level, he was just a threat to one of the main characters, and that's all he needed to be. His motivations, personality, appearance, backstory, none of it was directly important to the plot, just the fact that he had a reason for sending people after Han.
For a character-centered story like DR, all of those traits are *extremely* important to the plot, so not having any of them is an issue.
There is more personality in Cody saying "Come on, when have I ever let you down?" to Obi Wan alone than Kanako has in her one scene in UTY.
>what if Master Sword came back and made a Kanako game? Would that just be an OC too?
Picture for a moment what that would even entail. Why hasn't MasterSword done that? Especially if people love her so much? Sounds like free clout to me, so surely there's a reason he hasn't done that. Maybe it's because he already know Kanako's served her purpose and has no reason to exist beyond that? Could be.
I'd bet that's part of what they meant when they said Kanako became the spoon amalgamate in UT, not because that's genuinely what they planned for her, but because they just wanted to say something easy so people would leave them the hell alone about a character with a minute's worth of screentime and 5 lines of dialogue.

>>3860433
>See the difference between "what if Sans was in this story?" versus "what if I made an entirely new character and called it Sans?". That's the distinction.
didn't stop the hundreds of sans AUs

>Picture for a moment what that would even entail. Why hasn't MasterSword done that? Especially if people love her so much? Sounds like free clout to me
it is because he is done with UTY, and game dev isn't "free clout", game dev is actually one of the hardest creative fields to do and do it right on top of that

>>3860431
Yeah, that's all fine.
You're all missing what I'm saying here, even though I literally typed it out earlier ITT.
Yeah, you can take a random background character and ascribe whatever character traits to them you want, no matter how little character there is to them to begin with, it's not some kind of unforgiveable sin, it's not a crime.
I'm saying it's forced.
Because taking two characters, neither of which has any sort of characteristics whatsoever, and making an entire new story, and setting, and drafting up entirely new personalities for them to have, *just* as an excuse to ship them?
That's pretty fuckin' forced.
Like, people who shipped Frisk with Monster Kid back in the day actually had more ground to stand on here, at least those characters are on screen together.
Again, you can tell a forced story, but that doesn't make it not forced.

>>3860433
>I promise you even the most no-name, obscure, barely noticed background character from the prequels has a more rigidly defined and displayed character than Kanako.
Yeah, I'm sure random background Jedi 1 and 2 who existed solely to fill space in the arena battle had an excellently defined backstory. Or Jedi who dies in space ship, I'm sure he was definitely planned from the start.

Face it, anon. These were all just cool looking guys that George or one of his staff later decided to give a personality and story because they looked cool. No different from giving a this cute girl with a sad story with a happier ending because she's cute.

>>3860434
>didn't stop the hundreds of sans AUs
And those aren't contrived as all hell?
>it is because he is done with UTY, and game dev isn't "free clout", game dev is actually one of the hardest creative fields to do and do it right on top of that
Alright, so why not just release some kind of new, non-game content of her then? He always did like to go on about there being more post-launch plans for UTY, which he also conveniently only brought up once he said he would never do anything with UTY again, so hey, why not just do something with that?
Again, my point proves itself. UTY had some questionable decision making here and there, but leaving Kanako as a non-character wasn't one of them. She did what she had to, she served her purpose, and then she was gone, that's all there was to her.

>>3860436
>I'm saying it's forced.
And I'm saying its not. We look at the same set of starting details, and yet this is the natural conclusion I come to.

>>3860441
>Or Jedi who dies in space ship
Plo Koon? The wise, calm, experienced, Jedi master and council member, who bravely served in the Clone Wars until being tragically killed by his own squad mates during Order 66?

>>3860429
>I actually do really hope we get to see more of Monster Kid and Snowy in Deltarune. I would even like it if they became party members like Berdly and Noelle.
Fishing for SURVEY_2 ideas, what roles could you see them playing?
Asking because besides the characters we already saw in canon (plus a couple new picks for the lategame), I'm having a really hard time coming up with reasons to rope other lightners into the dark world. I have a couple ideas for Catti, Jockington, Sans, and QC (yes really), but they don't feel important enough to warrant bloating the cast.

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anyway posting some progress to break up this 100-post long back and forth
I had to completely half of the player's code and a lot of instances elsewhere in the code but I finally got kanako being able to move into separated rooms from cole and even being able to open the menus and battle by herself, which will open up some segments I had in mind, tho it wont be used too much in ch 1 besides a small puzzle segment

>>3860448
Kanako, the adorable, sweet, kind little girl and child of the Ketsukane family, who brought joy into everyone's lives until she was tragically killed by her own mother during a soul serum experiment?

Face it, Plo's just as much a Glup Shitto as Kanako is, if not more, since he wasn't even named on screen.

>>3860447
You are literally having to invent new characters from scratch in order to make this work, that is as forced as shipping gets.
No interactions, no time together on screen, no pre-existing chemistry of any kind, that is forced.
This isn't looking at the same set of details and coming to different conclusions, this is you just not being willing to admit that this is far from the smoothest pairing the world has ever seen.
You know why so many people ship Sans and Toriel? Or Undyne and Alphys? Or Susie and Noelle, or Kris and Noelle, or Kris and Susie or Ralsei or whoever the fuck else? Because those characters actually *interact* with each other, and have some kind of chemistry with each other to the point where people don't have to write up entirely new characters just to make it work.
People only ship KanaClover because they're the same age, and it'd be weird to pair them with anyone else without aging them up, and people in this community like to start witch hunts when people age characters up, so that's off the table for most people.

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>>3860455
Sorry anon you just lack The Vision™
If you think just because 2 characters are blank slates in a thing that they can't never be repurposed into something else, then I'm sorry but you just lack the IMAGINATION.
If people didn't want to see more of them there wouldn't be as much fanwork as there (and counting as new stuff with them is made almost daily).

>>3860454
>adorable
Subjective.
>sweet, kind
Subjective.
>little girl and child of the Ketsukane family
Only objectively correct thing here. Other than her name.
>who brought joy into everyone's lives until she was tragically killed by her own mother during a soul serum experiment?
Correction: "was known by several, and killed by her own suggestion.".
So, to be clear, her only firmly established character traits are "girl" and "child".
Meanwhile, Plo Koon was an aged member of the Jedi council, who bravely fought on the front lines of one of the biggest and deadliest wars in the history of the galaxy, and trusted his Clone subordinates (notice how he's flying in front of them leading their fighter formation before Order 66 happens, whereas Stass Allie was much physically closer to her clones on their speeders? Plo Koon clearly trusted and valued his men enough to lead them during battle like that, which is a trait the Clone Wars show would later expand upon), before being struck down by his own men.

>>3860450
>Sans
Can you ditch him and put Snowy in his spot? I think less Sans is a good thing.

As for Snowy's role, he's an ice monster, so he'd have ice powers, which are a big deal in the dark worlds. Maybe someone is trying to use him for his powers, or maybe they've mistaken him for Noelle because they were given the vague description of "white clad monster with ice powers". Maybe you could have a dragon blazers themed dark world where its in the ice palace, and he's been made their king because the boss of that zone was an ice dragon. Meanwhile MK is his chief minion.

They could start out being friendly, wanting Kris to join the "Cool kids" in the ice kingdom, but then things fall apart when they realize he's with Susie and she starts acting a fool. Then they'd be chapter antagonists until the real big bad shows up, or realizes they're in fact not the super powerful prophecy figures he thought they were.

I just think the "all the classmates show up in the dark worlds" is cooler and fits the theme better than S*ns and that shopkeep from snowdin.

>>3860460
>sweet, kind
>Subjective.
She was really nice to dalv, kept bringing him corn while he was in the ruins.

>>3860457
>If you think just because 2 characters are blank slates in a thing that they can't never be repurposed into something else
Jesus fucking Christ, can you read? I have actively not been saying that they can't be repurposed into something else, I've been saying that doing so is extremely forced. Seriously, read my replies.
>>3860436
>>3860413
>>3860403
Read them, read these replies and then actually think about what I am saying instead of imagining™ what I'm saying and replying to that.

>>3860451
I'm already excited for this, it's going to contrast the lack of control you have over Susie in Deltarune very nicely

>>3860455
I'm not drawing these connections for the shipping, I just see a poorly defined character like Kanako and my natural response is to invent all the details she's missing.

>>3860463
The fact that you see it as forced is what shows a lack of creativity. Your view of fiction is too limited.

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>>3860465
Okay, well, I'm now talking to multiple people here, but for reference, I'm talking about the guy who said picrel.

>>3860462
>>3860460
I'm pretty sure dina talks about kanako and how everyone in the wild east interacted with her
too bad there isn't that much info, but we know from her room she had friends and was just a regular kid all things considered, as far as we know she had a regular upbringing besides the integrity incident

>>3860468
Buddy, being creative has nothing to do with the ability to recognize something as being forced, those are two different things.
It was pretty creative of George Lucas to initially come up with the idea of Obi Wan's force ghost coming back to life at the end of Return of the Jedi, and have him kill Emperor Palpatine.
It was also, and this has been said by multiple people who worked on the original trilogy, including Lucas himself, inconceivably shitty writing, and he has said many times that he's glad he was talked out of it.
Something can be creative and still be forced as hell, creativity doesn't even necessarily mean "good", it just means being imaginative. Fahrenheit's a pretty creative game, didn't stop it from being shit.

>>3860469
That's dryanon, I'm the one who's been saying its not forced because its the natural conclusion.

>>3860470
>but we know from her room she had friends and was just a regular kid all things considered
So again, her defining traits are "regular child", and people are completely obsessed with her.
That's maybe a bit concerning.

>>3860471
>Buddy, being creative has nothing to do with the ability to recognize something as being forced,
No, it does. You just lack the creativity to naturally draw these connections on sight. Leading to you thinking that other people are trying to force them when they draw them.

Whether or not something is shit writing is not really relevant here, since something can be forced and good writing, or natural and bad writing.

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>>3860473
most works age her (and clover) up
thing is everyone grows up different so you end up with slightly different interpretations, and it depends also if they aged up regularly or with time shenanigans/coma (which is common due to her being amalgamated). of course those that do that have her end a more "basic" personality since she was in a coma for who knows how long in those

>>3860472
>its the natural conclusion.
Well you see the thing about that is that it isn't.
If you have to rewrite literally the entire story and world the characters exist in, as well as write new characters for the two characters in question to actually have, in order for either of these characters to even know each other as people, then you are literally forcing the story to bend over backwards just to accommodate these two characters.
That's forced.
Like, I'm sorry, that's literally what that is.
That is the most clear cut, cut and dry, open and shut, cock and balls case of forced I've ever seen, I'm sorry you apparently can't tell what words mean, but this is forced.

>>3860474
>You just lack the creativity to naturally draw these connections on sight.
No, I saw parallels between them when I played, in the sense that they're both kids who did something for something bigger than themselves, and subsequently died in the process, but shipping them makes no sense.
I'm perfectly creative, trust me, but that doesn't stop me from calling things like they are, and I'm calling this forced because it's absolutely forced.
You're not calling it forced because you like it, but that doesn't make it not forced.

>>3860474
>since something can be forced and good writing
Again, read my posts.
I even went and gathered them up in a single post just a few replies back, just go up and check.

>>3860476
>>3860477
>>3860478
Its 3 am, and we have been going in circles for two hours. I don't think either of us will convince the other on this issue.

I'll just end with this. UTY is a miserable universe where all the characters end up miserable, so the natural conclusion to seeing that is to create a universe where they aren't miserable. One of the characters that needs to be saved is Kanako, and part of that saving is giving her a personality. At that point. I have a cute fox girl and a human guy who live near to each other and have a lot in common, why not ship them together for maximum happiness. And at that point why not send them on adventures with all the other characters that didn't get much attention in UTY? Just seems like the natural response to me.

>>3860479
>Just seems like the natural response to me.
See, the *desire* for the characters to have a happy ending is natural, and that's not what I'm arguing about. I'm saying that rewriting an entire continuity just to make two characters who literally never interact with each other, one of whom has no idea the other even exists, is forced. It's forced like UnderFell is forced, you're taking a previously existing setting and making a bunch of extremely contrived changes to it for the sake of a desired storytelling purpose.
Natural to want to do that? Sure. Inherently good or bad? No. Forced? Absolutely.
You wouldn't have to change so much about the source material if it weren't because then it would *actually* be natural.

>>3860481
Its just a combination of small natural conclusions, the combination of which is one big natural conclusion.

>>3860482
Still forced.
Like, I'm sorry, that's what that means. If you have to fundamentally alter so much of the source material to make it happen, that only goes to show how much it was never going to happen to begin with.
It's forced, it is a forced pairing. Again, truly tragic you can't understand what the word "forced" means, but that doesn't make it mean something else.

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>>3860461
>Can you ditch him and put Snowy in his spot? I think less Sans is a good thing.
>I just think the "all the classmates show up in the dark worlds" is cooler and fits the theme better than S*ns and that shopkeep from snowdin.
I'm inclined to agree, but no, Sans and the shopkeep would be way more relevant to the dark world they would appear in. The alternative is to not include them at all, which is actually what I think I'll do.

I do like the sound of the Snowy/MK subplot you've laid out. There's a dark world I have in mind where it may fit, but I fear it may be too disconnected to the main conflict at hand.

I really do like the idea of "all the classmates appear in the dark world". It's just that the story I have in mind doesn't seem like it could satisfyingly involve them. Without going into too much detail, I think it's way too personal to Noelle, Susie, and especially Kris for everyone to be relevant.

What does fit perfectly is that Dragon Blazers idea you mentioned. I posted this concept sketch a while back, and the dark world on the left being themed after it would make so much thematic sense. That big building in the middle could totally be the Ice Palace.

I really do love how we've just been having this multi-hour long argument over semantics and writing while some poor bastards try and actually talk about fangame development.

>>3860483
I feel sad that we will never understand each other. I don't want to end this discussion negatively, so instead I'll thank you for being clear and precise with your wording, and hope that we can one day come to see each other's points of view.

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>>3860487
I'd accuse them of intentionally derailing if this wasn't standard UTDR autism

>>3860484
> The alternative is to not include them at all, which is actually what I think I'll do.
I hope by that you mean Sans and the shopkeep. I really dislike Sans.

>but I fear it may be too disconnected to the main conflict at hand.
There's probably a way you could tie it in, but you could just as easily make disconnected from the main conflict work. Maybe these two just end up being a really inconvenient speed bump in your journey that you desperately wish would fuck off. Maybe the real big bad of the chapter is just using them to keep you busy while it does its evil schemes, and that's why Susie is being so hostile to them. There's some pressing matters, and she pulls out her bully schtick to get them out of the way as fast as possible, only because this is their power fantasy, it backfires and turns them into antagonists that take up a sizeable chunk of that dark world.

Now they've got a justification for being there, some potential for funny scenes, and a good character moment for Susie.

>I think it's way too personal to Noelle, Susie, and especially Kris for everyone to be relevant.
That's one of the main problems with Deltarune though. You said you wanted to fix grievances with Deltarune, well that's a big one.

>>3860488
That's the thing, I'm not even disagreeing with you on wanting to see the end result at this point. Like yeah, I don't particularly care for KanaClover specifically for the reasons briefly™ gone over above, but I can appreciate an hmofa story when i see it, I'm just pointing out that, by the context of the story they both originally debuted in, the pairing itself is pretty forced, narratively speaking.
It just is, you are bending the continuity of a story in ways that are profoundly contrived for the sake of reaching a desired worldstate with which you can tell a story, it was forced when DustTale did it, it was forced when SwapTale (not UnderSwap, different thing) did it, it's forced writing for the sake of being able to play around with some characters in a different way.
Back in the day people would just shrug and call in crackfic, or continuity break, or more recently, an AU, because they acknowledged that the circumstances necessary for the state of the world's story to exist as such for this story to be told in the first place were so contrived and forced that there was no way it could happen without a fundamental change to the context in which the characters exist, which is, in short, forced.

>>3860487
Bold of you to assume those groups aren't one and the same.

>>3860492
I don't think AUs are inherently forced either. I just don't think we're going to come to an agreement on this issue, anon. All we're doing is moving the thread closer to the bump limit.

>>3860494
>I don't think AUs are inherently forced either.
Not all of them maybe, but I think I made some pretty decent comparisons when it comes to AUs centered around character interactions, like with DustTale and SwapTale.
Anyone here remember SwapTale? I actually thought it had an interesting premise, even if it was forced as all hell.
Kinda dumb that Toriel would just fucking kill Sans like that though.

>>3860495
Anon, you're not gonna convince me DRY is forced.

>>3860496
Well at that point you're just blatantly disagreeing about the definition of a word, which you're wrong about, so convincing you is besides the point.

>>3860491
>I hope by that you mean Sans and the shopkeep. I really dislike Sans.
Yes, that's correct.

>Now they've got a justification for being there, some potential for funny scenes, and a good character moment for Susie.
Actually, what you described makes me think it could fit in another dark world. The one I thought of before (the Dragon Blazers one) is probably too heavy for a subplot like that, but the one preceding it could actually work pretty well. I'm still ironing out ideas for the main conflict there, but it would make a lot of sense for the main antagonist to try and distract and misdirect the Fun Gang as much as possible.
The Dragon Blazers one is the dark world that I was thinking of throwing Catti and Jockington in, for what it's worth. Primarily because it also heavily features Noelle, and Catti is said to be one of her closer friends who would rightfully be concerned about her and have good reason to tag along. Based off your suggestions, I will more seriously consider how to make the idea work.

>That's one of the main problems with Deltarune though.
Could you elaborate more on your opinion here? I'm particularly interested in ways you think it detracts from Deltarune's story, and what you believe an ideal alternative could look like.

>>3860498
>The Dragon Blazers one is the dark world that I was thinking of throwing Catti and Jockington in
So what are you going to do about the ice dragon boss, that you counter intuitively have to use ice magic on to defeat.
>Could you elaborate more on your opinion here
It has all these good characters in it, but then they get swept aside for more of the same old same old with Susie, Kris, Ralsei, and occasionally lesbianism with Noelle. I want to see more of the fun side characters that Toby seems intent on shoving out of the way. I'd like a different classmate every chapter, sort of like how Berdly and Noelle showed up in chapter 2.

>>3860503
>So what are you going to do about the ice dragon boss, that you counter intuitively have to use ice magic on to defeat.
Not gonna lie I forgot about that. Noelle's in the Dragon Blazers chapter, so she gets to fulfill the role. Ralsei also has fire magic by then, so the elemental weakness bait and switch works here too.
I probably wouldn't follow Dragon Blazers to a T in the chapter, and I'd probably change some details about it to fit SURVEY_2's new story anyway.

>I want to see more of the fun side characters that Toby seems intent on shoving out of the way. I'd like a different classmate every chapter, sort of like how Berdly and Noelle showed up in chapter 2.
My original plan did at least feature a new party member each chapter: Noelle and Berdly return, Toriel actually does stuff now, the Dragon Blazers chapter's whole gimmick is a large cast of lightners, and the last couple dungeons give you a different party than usual. The difference is the classmates weren't a part of that (besides Berdly), but you've spurred me to look into making some adjustments.
Now that I think about it, most of the lightners I had in mind had a big role in Undertale, so this change is for the better.

>>3860375
Oh, I just wanted to come back to this, like, four and a half hours late, and say that while I could see the idea of an empire in decline not being willing to see itself as such and still proclaiming itself as "ruling the earth" (see the modern day United States of America for example), I feel like it's worth pointing out that the intro to UT doesn't actually seem to be from the perspective of anyone actually living in the world of UT itself, and rather seems to be some generic intro describing the the events preceding the fall of the first fallen human, so I'd make the argument that in-universe perspective on the status of the monster empire wouldn't necessarily have any bearing on what the intro would say.

>>3860508
MK's dark world design should look like Undyne's armor, but like a sillier version of it.

>>3860509
I will address that in the game.

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>>3860108
Reposting from last thread.
TC!Underfell finally has another devlog after more than a year.
https://gamejolt.com/p/october-2025-devlog-10th-anniversary-tribute-jkmtqbuv
Frisk and Flowey have been redesigned. The reasons given in the devlog for the redesigns are that old Frisk is too loyal to the established "Canon-Fell" design and that they wish to differentiate them more into a unique "Colossus-Fell" direction. The lessened shading and saturation of Frisk is to make them fit better into the background. For Flowey's new design, they say that they gave more him of a mane-like feel for the petals to maybe characterize him as rebellious due to Toriel not letting him have longer hair when he was Asriel.
The team's current goal is to have the first chapter finished by the end of July 2026.

>>3860511
Alright, fair.
Also, about what you said to my unnecessarily detailed idea for magic kinetic bombardment; even if most "normal" people wouldn't necessarily think of something like that, there are a lot of people out there who love looking for weird logical consequences of relatively detailed systems like that, so more people like me are bound to turn up at some point. It's just that most people like me are too busy playing Dwarf Fortress or being hounded by the ATF.

>>3860513
Its 4:30, so I'm too tired to remember them at the moment, but I am certain Undertale has plenty of "plot holes" like that of its own. At a certain point the only answer is, "because then I wouldn't have a story". Its the same reason Star Wars has dog fights that obey the laws aerodynamics in space.

>>3860514
>Its the same reason Star Wars has dog fights that obey the laws aerodynamics in space.
You actually can still have dog fights in space, they'd just be a bit floatier and more based on angular momentum. Go watch BattleStar Galactica if you wanna see what that's like.
Anyway yeah, UT has weird things like that too, like that one I brought up in a thread a few months back about whether you could engage in sexual choking with a monster partner, since the actual effect of the "attack" dealt and received by each party is determined by how much either side actually wants to hurt and be hurt by each other, which would make stuff like that difficult.
Really, when you set up a system with very weird but specific rules like that, it's only a matter of time before someone asks if you can get hard in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.
The answer's no by the way, it's too cold.

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>>3860108
Revival's Underfell has an update as thanks for 8K followers on Game Jolt.
https://gamejolt.com/p/october-2025-8k-followers-underfell-s-10th-anniversary-xiee6yjj
Official designs of Papyrus and Sans revealed.
Prototype cutscene of the introduction of their OCs, the moth twins.
https://youtu.be/7EjP3SOdEKE
Battle theme of the moth twins.
https://youtu.be/mcHyTNNbc3w

>>3860492
>It just is, you are bending the continuity of a story in ways that are profoundly contrived for the sake of reaching a desired worldstate
for DRY2 a lot of the things i've written are more the "result" of characters simply being thrown into a different environment.
for example,
>starlo, put him in a more serious environment with less wiggle room than the underground, cowboy thing is almost stomped out completely. he becomes a general community leader thanks to charisma.
>martlet, being a police officer is much more serious than a royal guard. so at some point she tries out woodworking and sticks with it.
>dalv, librarian, writes kids books. shouldn't need explanation.
>chujin, owner of tech shop with a distaste for humans born from past events in his life.
some non-characters need more extrapolation,
>rosa, the little bit we have tells us that she's bold, arrogant, and thinks very highly of herself. so i've turned her into the ultimate example of "i dont care what YOU think"
>kanako, we only have the facts that she thought herself a burden and wanted to be a superhero. so she'd probably be more tomboyish if allowed to grow up and have the option, baseball and the kanabo are good choices.
>sadie, she would rather sit on the playground alone than play with her other friends. maybe she's a bit shy, maybe she doesnt like to be with other people, maybe its her way of coping with kanako just disappearing. i've personally written her as a mix of shy and wanting to be alone.
as for kanakoXcole...
>mylo is also in the town, taking the [murderer] part of her and turning it to [bully]
>kanako's her target one day
>cole's sense of justice as the yellow soul human has him stop mylo
>kanako's intrigued because this goes against almost everything chujin taught her about humans, she gets curious about cole, and eventually they become inseparable friends

>>3860517
now, i am not going to argue. its 4:34AM and im going to sleep.
point of all this is, i just want you to understand that there's a big difference between "forcing things" by completely warping characters like the vast majority of AUs...
...and simply making a new story using existing characters.
sometimes having to add to a character is inevitable, especially if one of the big focuses is to give lesser characters love that they didnt get from the original story. but 'proper' extrapolations can be made from just a few lines and what/where the character does/is

>>3860517
Okay wait, you're DRY2 guy, one of the other guys was the DRY1 guy, who the hell was the third guy then? Just some guy? Were you always in that argument or did you just now show up?

>>3860515
>You actually can still have dog fights in space, they'd just be a bit floatier and more based on angular momentum. Go watch BattleStar Galactica if you wanna see what that's like.
Even those aren't scientifically accurate. Space fighters wouldn't be a thing. It'd just be drone swarms and long range missile and laser fights where most of it trying to predict where your opponent is going to be a few hours or days from now.
>The answer's no by the way, it's too cold.
Skill issue

>>3860519
i just showed up now and the other guy is just some guy.
im sleeping now, if you want to leave a proper response feel free but i wont get to it for ~8 hours.

>>3860519
that third guy was indeed just some guy
t. that guy

>>3860520
It'd just be drone swarms and long range missile and laser fights where most of it trying to predict where your opponent is going to be a few hours or days from now.
That depends on a lot of things. In the context of BSG, neither side has laser technology, they each only have a finite amount of missiles, and the humans don't use networked computers on their ships because the Cylons have the ability to interface directly with networked machines and manipulate them to do what they want, which is how they turned off a bunch of human pilots ships mid flight and killed them.
So, no drones, no lasers, and both sides want each other dead much more immediately than to wait hours or days for a projectile to hit from across a star system. Also, their FTL systems make it pretty easy to just dodge any super long range projectiles anyway, so that's not too much of a problem.

>>3860522
Mm, great.

>>3860523
The Cylons would still be better served replacing their fighters with more missiles or suicide drones, and the colonials really have no reason to still be using guns on their fighters considering the tech level they're at. Even simple heat seeking missiles would give an incredible advantage over guns, and they very obviously have the tech for radar guided missiles.

Its a setting built around having cool friction free dog fights in space, and everything exists to serve that.

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>>3860517
>>3860521
Well, if you're doing this for the sake of shipping KanaClover, I'd still argue that constructing an entire alternate continuity for them to exist in just so a specific sequence of events can happen which leads them to getting together would probably still qualify as being "forced", just because it required so much alteration to begin with, but honestly? Not bad. This one I can at least see fitting the relatively barebones characters Clover (yes I know it's Cole okay I just don't feel like alternating the name every time) and Kanako have in UTY, with Clover acting largely because of their belief in "justice", and with Kanako...
Alright, well, Kanako still has no basis for being literally anything at all, but with how willing she was to throw herself at her father's science experiment, I'd say her initially believing what Chujin said about humans at least makes some kind of sense.
So, alright, fine, you get a pass on that front specifically, from me, a person who's opinions became weirdly front and center in this thread through no fault of my own.
However, and I forget if you were the guy I had that discussion with last time, I'm still not sure it makes a whole lot of sense for Chujin himself to harbor the same sort of feelings towards humans in the world of DR, given how the specific context for *why* he hated humans in UT just doesn't exist in DR, as well as the fact that other characters who were much more openly hostile against humans don't apparently have any sort of particular feelings against humans whatsoever, so it still feels a bit weird that *just* Chujin would retain that aspect of his UT universe counterpart, but meh.
So, I retain that the idea in and of itself is still forced just to make this all happen to begin with, but at least your execution seems alright.
We're done here.

>>3860528
>The Cylons would still be better served replacing their fighters with more missiles or suicide drones
Well, technically the Cylon Raiders (the standard Cylon fighter) is a drone, since there isn't a person in it. To be specific, it's a metal ship filled with artificial neurons and internal organs that compose the ship's "pilot". It's a meat ship. It's filled with meat.
>colonials really have no reason to still be using guns on their fighters considering the tech level they're at.
Actually, aside from the FTL and I guess the artificial gravity (although that second one is never directly referred to in-universe if I recall correctly), the Colonial fleet's technology isn't actually too far in advance of our own. What's left of it anyway, the Galactica itself is considered an out-of-date vessel by the time the show starts, and everything on board is analog.
Anyway, as for why they don't use more missiles, it's because missiles are powerful and they can't go wasting them every time they get into a fight, especially their nuclear missiles. If you haven't seen the show, the entirety of the twelve colonies planetside presence in their (technically) home system is eradicated, with each planet being completely glassed by nuclear weapons from a surprise Cylon invasion, nearly 40 years after the Cylons were last heard from.
So basically, resources are extremely scarce, and they can't go wasting them, because they won't have the chance to replenish them any time soon.

not tired, unfortunate.
>>3860533
>I'd still argue that constructing an entire alternate continuity for them to exist in just so a specific sequence of events can happen which leads them to getting together would probably still qualify as being "forced"
im trying to keep it 100% canon compliant to deltarune, planned things in a way that should any reveals fuck with current plans, the infringing thing can very easily be changed to fix compliancy with minimal obtrusion to the story's events.
> I'm still not sure it makes a whole lot of sense for Chujin himself to harbor the same sort of feelings towards humans in the world of DR, given how the specific context for *why* he hated humans in UT just doesn't exist in DR
two things, the first is that i've kinda focused a major part of the story around that and i dont feel like rewriting it. the second? i just think its a funny trait to carry over.
that said he can very easily be given content for the why. like him having miserable experiences in the past that would make even a saint crack. and since i probably am the same person, i'll just repeat that i think its something that really shouldnt be elaborated on too hard. the "why" isnt a focus, and there's the question of "will the answer result in a better "chujin"?" the answer is "probably not", so its better to not take the risk, and limit it to implications of what happened.

>>3860475
Hi, yeah, I aged them up because I really didn't wanna write with child characters honestly.

The way I've written Kanako is entirely based off of the little evidence we get in-game, which is the examination dialogue in her room, the flashback, and sometimes quotes from other characters talking about her.

There's a lot of drawings in her room, a stockpile of books in a basket, and in a corner is a bunch of "building bricks" (legos probably) along with a stuffed animal. The home-made game console had a game called "Surface Tycoon" in it, presumably some kind of management simulator.

So because of that stuff, I've tried to depict her as being relatively gifted in intellect, a bit nerdy, and into creative arts. And the whole painting powers thing that's just taken straight from Okami lmao


Naturally the amount of content given for Kanako is nowhere close to as big as what the characters like Ceroba & Starlo get, but there's still a bit there to base writing her character off of if you dig for it.

Anyways, the UTY devs themselves have the same stance on this sort of thing as the one Toby presented in the anniversary stream, which was essentially "Just go make up your own thing and have fun with it".

>>3860541
>im trying to keep it 100% canon compliant to deltarune
Oh so YOU'RE the one I was thinking of. God damnit, so one of my earlier points in the argument was actually valid, it's just that "DRY" has become so nebulous that no one can keep track of who's talking about what anymore.
Alright, well, whatever.
As for that Chujin thing, while you probably could just replace the human-monster war with some kind of personal motivation for him, I stand by what I said in the previous thread in that if it ends up boiling down to a "Why'd you fuck Debbie?" thing I'm still just gonna call that bad writing at that point.
>"will the answer result in a better "chujin"?" the answer is "probably not"
I mean, forcing him to confront the reason why he holds those sorts of beliefs could also make him realize that he doesn't actually have as valid a reason for harboring those beliefs in the first place, which could actually make him a better person if he chose to try and reform afterwards.
Anyway to circle back to the initial starting point of all this, I'd argue that, even while trying to maintain some kind of compliance with DR's lore, it's also a bit forced for Clover/Cole/Whoever to end up in the same general area as the other UTY characters anyway, since the context for why they'd be there would be entirely different from the context of why they went to Mt.Ebott in UTY.

>>3860547
>it's also a bit forced for Clover/Cole/Whoever to end up in the same general area as the other UTY characters anyway
to be fair, could the same not be said for deltarune itself?
for all the UT characters to end up in one central location?

>>3860550
Yes.
Alright, glad that's wrapped up.

>>3860550
Okay, to answer this somewhat more seriously, maybe, depending on what the connection between UT and DR actually ends up being. If the scratch theory ends up being correct, which it may very well be based on Gerson's dialogue in DR, then no, it'll make perfect sense and the link between DR and UT will be clear. Otherwise yes, it'll be weird and forced.
I actually made the argument earlier that having a DRY take set in the same continuity as DR itself could work if the idea was for it to be a prequel/side story to DR the same way UTY was for UT, with the characters in DRY somehow ensuring that the scratch happens at the end of DR, thereby dooming themselves to become their UTY counterparts.
That would actually have made sense, as opposed to just plopping UTY characters into a DR setting and having them deal with some entirely unrelated situation that has nothing to do with anything.