Sliders
Criss cross!
Hurray for sliders!I'm glad that this is just the placeholder UI design.
That's the budget, not sliders.
>1337DOA for anyone with a brain. Paradox games never have more than 150 years of decent gameplay in them if you are not a mouth-drooling retard. Enjoy the game being over before you even get to Reformation and the Americas.
They're pandering to the audience of players who have always pirated their games + DLC and will be doing the same for this one even if they think it's enjoyable. Meanwhile, the paying EU4 audience is on the official forums and elsewhere on the internet talking about how they don't like the new features and might skip this one/stick with EU4. This may be the last time Paradox attempts to make a game like this.
>>1730792If they made EU4 again then people would just keep playing EU4. They have invested hundreds of Koku into EU4 DLC so EU5 actually has to offer something new and fun to get any audience.
>>1730794you are simply wrong. I saw it in a dream.
>>1730794>If they made EU4 again then people would just keep playing EU4.If they made EU4 again with a new coat of paint, their audience of casuals/redditors would line right up to pre-order it and buy the DLC bundles just like did they with CK3
>>1730799like they did*
>>1730574Based and redpilled.
>>1730771>you must only play the earliest start date
>>1730558why did they cuck the victorian fans with buttons in the most economical game but give sliders to the game that actually would be better with buttons
>>1730964there are different teams working on the games, Johan is in charge of EU and with this one he's simply saying fuck it and giving all the longtime critics what they want
>>1730771>Enjoy the game being over before you even get to Reformation and the Americas.good, I just want to stop the ottomans and save south europe from becoming a perma shitholealso reformation can't happen if we restore the pentarchy
>>1730964At this point I'm sure they just didn't know what to do with Victoria 3 or just fucked up.
>>1730558>clergy tax>zeroParasites and welfare queens
>>1730792good, fuck the redditor paypigs
>>1730792https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzkCmidjeHcThis is you and other paradrone forum imbeciles.
>>1730771Fuck pr*testants and fuck am*rica.
Do you agree with this? I agree with this.t.paradrone
>>1731042very problematic Johan
>>1731042damn when did he become so based
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-talks-8-17th-of-april-2024.1666167/
>>1731110>Banking countriesHolt shit, I can play the Jewish dispora!
I'm about to cum.
>>1731108>There is also another way to get gold, you can send a diplomat to one of the banking countries, like Peruzzi and Bardi, if there is one that you know of within diplomatic range, to request a loan. Make sure you don’t forget to pay them on time, or default on the loans, or you may never be able to loan from them again.ZAMN
>>1731110>one form>there is a good chance there will be several
It began with the forging of the GSG. CK III was given to the ERPers, lustful, retarded and degenerate of all players. Victoria III to the paradrones, shit eaters and players of cookie clickers. And nine, nine DLC were gifted to the EU IV players, who above all else desire monarch power. For within these GSG was bound the strength and the will to govern each /vst/dweller. But they were all of them deceived, for another GSG was made. Deep in the land of Catalonia, in the Fires of Montau , the rogue Studio Manager Johan forged a master GSG, and into this GSG he poured his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life.One GSG to rule them all.
>Climate>Topography >Vegetation Johan please, my penis can only get so erect...
>>1731110God damn. It looks like the punished Johan really did some redeption arc.Still this is just forum posts. Could be empty promises or testing waters. We have yet to see the implementation but even the fact that they intend to go in this direction instead of EU4/HoI4/CK3/Vic3 direction is promising.
>>1731108curious to see how they'll stop you from abusing ((banking families))
Wiz lostdrones lostreddit lost
>Ressource Gathering Operations>RGO are backVicky II bros, we are eating so fucking good. Johan will save us all.
>>1731127well how did rulers abuse them IRL?
>>1731127>Make sure you don’t forget to pay them on time, or default on the loans, or you may never be able to loan from them again.I guess there will be some form of credit.
>>1731108Looks like Majapashit and Sunda?
>>1731118banking countries should create a separate estate in your country depending on how much money they're lending to you. Or take over your own burgher estate to simulate you depending on them.
>>1731130oh wow, I'm looking forward to seeing how badly the game will run
>>1731142It seems to be similar to Imperators system, just that resources are now automatically traded via markets and Imperator ran like butter (later patches lmao). Trust the plan.
>>1731142I mean I can run meiou with a dedicated gpu just fine
>>1731144Everything that comes from under Paradox these days runs like total dogshit. They will find a way.
>>1731145>dedicatedof course I meant integrated
>>1731108Cute jungle drawings do give life to the map.
it's overjohan got EXPOSED as a hack
>>1731156Schrodinger's money
>>1731156think johan is just an esl who chose the wrong wordit should be order, not control
>>1731157The "fix" will be precious good RGOs that add money to the system
>>1731168Uh vicky 3 sisters...
>>1731156>>1731157>people who you can't control can't get taxed>likely rebels too WOW
>>1731199more like>the people the state can't control stop doing economic activity
>>1731204This, in MEIOU* you got a share of production based on the local autonomy and the rest went to the estate of that province , whereas in EU5 it seems it will just disappear *by which I mean the versions that are a game rather than a movie
>>1731199Yes but where will that untaxed money go? One of Victoria 2's biggest problem was aristocrats hording millions of pounds which limited global money supply.
holy based, i cant wait to financially own all of the colonial empires while i use their goybux to build utopia in italy
>>1731168>>1731179Lmao
>>1731214Was this really ever a problem?Late game Vicky 2 you can make a shitton of plane, car, telephone, radio and steam boat factories so the rich class spends money on fancy toys.
>>1730962Johan has confirmed game will only have one startdate.>>1730975>>1731038Go play CK, medievaloid.
>>1730771there's lots of disasters happening at the start date that make snowballing difficult. Im also sure that they have some means to make expanding very painful in the beginning
>>1731219In vanilla yes
>>1731224CK doesn't simulate the transition from late medieval to early modern nearly well enough
>>1731227Really?I pnly play HPM nowadays, but the few times I played vanilla I never found it remarkable.
>>1731217There will not be any colonial empires in the game. Game will nominally have colonial mechanics, but nobody will play after 1500, just like nobody plays after 1600 in EU5.
>>1731226LMAO LOLThose disasters will affect AI just as much as they affect the player, except AI will be much worse at dealing with them, letting players snowball once they learn the correct flowchart for handling the Byzantine civil war. Paradox is obsessed with trying to balance snowballing with internal mechanics (which never works) instead of making AI competent enough to check the player's blobbing.
>>1731233*in EU4
Nobody plays beyond 1600 because EU4 is fucking boring beyond the initial landgrab.
>>1730558>I'm going to put my army maintenance on half.Said literally no one ever.
>>1731234just play on hard then
>>1731122Based and kino.
>>1731234in eu4 you click a button to lower autonomy and can expand infinitely because of that. This game looks a little different because they replaced autonomy with a deeper system that counters blobbing pretty hard. I think playing tall will be pretty strong in the early game with building up a foundation for an economy, as expanding too early costs a shitload of money to build the control buildings to lower autonomy. In the 2nd half of the game once absolutism kicks in and its easier to control land then blobbing will probably take over.
>>1731240I'm going to put my army maintenance on halfThere I said it!
>>1731240>don't want to waste money while at peace>don't want to have to wait three months to stop a rebel stack from capturing a fortless province
>>1731261You know roughly when the rebels are going to proc. Just go from 0 to 100% army maintenance when it gets close?
>>1730558is colonization of americas really so popular?this is the predominant demographic of people who complain about the start date, together with the occasional turkcel who fears that playing as the ottomans will be easy instead of tutorialmode
>>1731130>resource type>:|>rgo>"OH MY GASH PUNISHED JOHAN YOUR SAVIOR WHITE AND BASED!?!"kill yourself
>>1731297kill YOURself, /gsg/igger
>>1731226tying manpower to noble loyality could help making battles much more decisive, like 5x times the warscore reward compared to eu4
>EU4 last dlc got announced>you can form Austria Hungarywhy? IRL thats a nerf not a buff and its not even within the game's timeperiod (not to mention it can just be represented by a PU)EU5 will be shit as long as those fags pander towards larper redditors, johan cant save you
>>1731327it is a nerf you retarded iliterate tranny
>>1731042damn, kinda based from johan
>>1731327>johan cant save youin fact johan is the reason why the genre is regressing>"dude he learned from his mistakes! give him a chance!"how the FUCK would anyone know? he is a complete subhuman, he has equated piracy with pedophilia and is generally a complete lolcow on the forumshe can get all the praise in the world when the game is released and i am positively surprised (for once) out of this dogshit company, until then i will have my reservations
>>1731345ok wiz
wiz and jotran are cut from the same pozzed cloth both are obsessed with placing immigration mechanics above actual gameplay expect eu5 to have a completely whitewashed portrayal of communism ala vic3s “wholesome” muh council republics
>>1731303/gsg/ tryhards love this shit though
>>1731358shut the fuck up you retardwhy are you continuing to repeat the same unironically debunked talking points
pdx suffers from wanting to reinvent the wheel when they struck money with casualisation, it was over for next series of games (civ moment)however eu4 being so bland and shit It might even be positive for them to once again reinvent it, even if it was present in eu3 but not in eu4
stop replying to the anglopajeetlet him seethe alone about the fact that he is a brown migrant
>>1731234>making AI competent enough to check the player's blobbingwon't happen in any gsgs anytime soon
>>1731373consistently gets attention
>>1730574Cha cha real smooth.
>>1731327EUV will be shit because it's a decade since Paradox released a good game and because they have a jewish bussines model. And because of Johan, yes.I have no idea how there are people in this thread excited for EU V. Paradox is a CA-tier developer.
>>1731373>unironically debunked what a dumb fucking sentence you’re using “unironically” like some teenage stereotype from the 2000s prefixing every word with “literally” i hope you unironically enjoy your pozzed fucking victoria 4 with its wholesome medieval communes made up of 17 different ethnicities
>>1731345yes, board game fags won't like Johans simulations
>>1731236It's what lack of anti-blobbing and internal management does.
>anglojeet says this even though he is a mutt
>>1731413Who are you replying to?
>>1731345>still being butthurt that a dev isn't okay with piracyOk, retard. You also have terabytes of loli porn, is that it? Is that why you're still butthurt about it?
>>1731411Since when did a simulation of medieval Europe involve mass migration of Moslems to white countries?
>>1731294>is colonization really so popular in the game series about the age of exploration?These stats are a few years old but England is literally the most played country in EU4, and Spain and Portugal aren't far behind.https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/top-23-most-played-countries.865345/
>>1731416lol why the fuck are you talking to me like that? crazy how if we met in person and you were running your mouth like that I would stomp on your fucking head until you died in a puddle of your own blood and vomit. fucking kill yourself you cunt
is it true that swedes go to hell for being protestants?
>anglojeet got so mindbroken he is spamming and replying to himself
>>1731419>lol why the fuck are you talking to me like that? crazy how if we met in person and you were running your mouth like that I would stomp on your fucking head until you died in a puddle of your own blood and vomit. fucking kill yourself you cunt
>>1731430Who are you replying to?
>>1731421>>1731424>>1731426>>1731433>GermanyYou get the Holy Roman Empire>PrussiaYou get the Teutonic Order
Good morning sirsIs Bharat confirmedWill it be in the gameCan you confirm sirs?
will prussia be featured in eu5?forming prussian germany was always my favorite run in victoria2, and nazi germany was always my favorite run in DH
>>1731431suck my dick and die nigger troon. nobody will mourn you
will the margraviate of brandenburg be featured in eu5?
will the kingdom of prussia be featured in eu5?will the kingdom in prussia be featured in eu5?will the teutonic order be featured in eu5?will the margraviate of brandenburg be featured in eu5?will ducal prussia be featured in eu5?will royal prussia be featured in eu5?
Did they say anything about dynasties yet?
did they say anything about the hohenzollern dynasty yet?
Will you be able to play as Germany
will the nation of bharat be featured in eu5?will the empire of Hindustan be featured in eu5?will the jambu dwipa be featured in eu5?will the aja nabha varsa be featured in eu5?will meluha be featured in eu5?will royal aryavarta be featured in eu5?Well sirs? will it?
Can some one go on paradox forums and ask johan if germany in the game Also could you ask him if prussia will be available too
>>1731410You seem agitated, Sir. Please calm down, everything will be okay. Johan has his best men on the job.
Can some sirs go on paradox forums and ask johan if india in the gameAlso could you ask him if delhi will be available too
WHERE IS PRUSSIA??? HELLO??????
>>1731410do you even know where the talking point you're spouting came from, you retard
SIRS! I WILL NOT ASK AGAINS!!! SIR WHERE INDIA!!! SAAAR! BENCHOD WHERE INDIA IN EU5???
>>1731417>sees the word migration>immediately assumes it will mean infinity muslimstouch grassstop reading the daily stormer
>>1731469Well, considering the migrations into Anatolia and Spain historically, it should definitely be an option. :^)
we're aint gonna play crimeamod fuck off
Holy shit, the amount of seething this one guy has for Project Caesar is unreal.
>>1731481remember, happiness is poison for some people
>>1731481He's not even shitting up V3 threads anymore. I think he's addicted to seething itself.
>>1731488>thenSAAR it's 1 AM in Delhi, go to bed!
>>1731490me and the lads are kekking at you
>>1731487Fuck off you ape, I was asking a genuine question, it's not my fault I came here when some retard is having a melty.
>>1731117>>1731110>>1731108Florence sisters we are so back.
>>1731110man johan is implementing all the necessary features so someone can make a good victoria mod for eu5.shit is going to fucking bitchslap v3 into the dirt. this is awesome.
>>1731142i have hope. johan has passive aggressively taken digs at v3's performance. or at least i think he explicitly talked about avoiding the main causes of v3's performance issues.
>>1731233what if pop mechanics/early game plagues and famines make it hard to play wide for the first few centuries? that'll encourage people to play longer.
>>1731487>>1731502based jannies
>>1731253Victoria 2/3 has detailed internal mechanics and people still blob. CK2/3 has detailed internal mechanics and people still blob. MEIOU has the communication efficiency mecanic and guess what? Internal mechanics might make blobbing somewhat more challenging, but they never stop it in any meaningful way.
>>1731497nigger
>>1731512Then we will continue demanding games be made harder to blob. Simple.
>>1731179My boner got so huge that my penis actually exploded from such a big flow of blood and now I'm dying from losing blood fast through the hole, thxs johan
>>1731179>raw materiali see the "1 resource per province" mindset still plagues paradoxincreasing province density isn't a solution
>>1731156that lack of control explanation is garbage lmao, he could have just said its a lack of government bureaucracy or reach
>>1731108Wait. So they just renamed provinces to locations, and states to provinces, and made a huge deal out of it? This is almost the exact same map as in EU4, just some state borders are different.
>>1731510see>>1731512>>1731234
>>1731551solution to what problem? what do you think why cant we get more resource/prov? guess 1
Having money attached to estates instead of thin air like 4 is gonna prove to be a terrible decision gameplay wise
>>1730964because victoria 3 was made by w*z
>>1731566>what do you think why cant we get more resource/provbecause paradox employees are cancer-deserving retards? wild guess here!warband isn't even a grand strategy game and had villages produce a variety of resources, which would be exported to towns for processing
>>1731156johan believes that if the government has low control over a region, said region has no economic activityhe doesn't seem to be aware that a region could have economic activity, but simply withhold taxes due to the temporary absence of bureaucrats and accountsmay have to do with his nationality; sweden is the most statist nation in europe and they probably brainwash them into finding this a necessity
>>1731571It would significantly increase the amount of calculations required.
>>1731122More like the Ultimate GOYSLOP
>>1731584yes paradox can go from 2000 provinces to 20k provinces and performance is never an issue but having a province be able to produce both "grain" and "wood" is somehow a feat beyond current human technology
>>1731575>rebel factions will make use of money not createdSeems clear to me that he means that the economy exists, but less, and you don't tax it, so the rebels might get it, instead.But maybe that's just us, ESLs, using brainwaves to communicate clearly in broken English.
>>17315911. Yes, it is an issue.2. It's not beyond current technology, it'll just take longer.3. The calculation will involve every single province times every single resource, so 10 resources in 2k provinces is the same as 1 resource in 20k provinces.
>>1731595performance is not an excuse, unless aimed at tech illiterate retards who will take paradox word for grantedstill remember paradogs invoking "performance" for not implementing stockpiles in V3 in hopes of tricking their subhuman audiencecomputers are at a level where integers can be updated millions of times a second with close to 0 overheadyou can invoke "performance" as part of their competency crisis, aka "parakikes are too subhuman to make this simple thing work"
>>1731591>Yes, I know nothing about how multithreading and concurrency work, how could you tell?I hate zoomies' technological illiteracy so much its unreal.
>>1731604you are the exact type of subhuman this >>1731601 covered
>>1731604>illiteracyPseudo-literacy.Illiterate people at least know they're illiterate.
>>1731605>>1731601>Computers are at a level where integers can be updated millions of times a second with close to 0 overheadVery nice, now do such operations concurrently and with the results being relevant to each other and see how "simple" it is, you absolute retard.
>>1731609Wait, woah, you mean calculation results don't just magically insert themselves when needed, and have to... *gasp* WAIT?
>>1731609>concurrently and with the results being relevant to each otheraka baby just learned about fancy things like multithreading but doesn't know about the most basic shit, such as how cheap array lookups and integer read/writes are>>1731611american trying to be "ironic" but is biologically incapable of subtlety because of exposure to capeshit
>>1731613You do not have a BCS. You will not have a BCS. Your little bitch-ass has not gotten to parallel programming part of your studies. And you will absolutely get fucking filtered by it, like most students. Literally NOBODY in the know takes such a cavalier attitude to it.
>>1731613>such as how cheap array lookups and integer read/writes areZoomfags truly don't understand that just because their CS101 toy meme programs run "well" with their small as fuck datasets, the running time will not stay constant with actually useful data sizes (like Paratrash economic simulations). When did they stop teaching about time complexity at school?
>>1731623The only O notation they know is the shape their mouth takes when they start pretending they know coding.
>>1731613Scale in processes will have a performance impact. For example. lets say that you want to give each pop a name. Totally possible with tech today, trivial even, but that is gigabytes of data to process. There are many other things to process in the game and the player is also going to be watching Sissy Hypno porn on the other monitor as a matter of course as well as discord, steam, google spyware, microsoft spyware, facebook spyware and the player has to deal with all the bitcoin miners they have downloaded.So when it comes to the performance of a game you have to pick and choose your battles. Sure every pop having a name would be nice and you can do it but does it add to the game? You can apply this to resources too. Each location having 2 resources (Food and 1 extracted resource) is easy to balance, easy to compute, easy to understand. It's just good game design.
>>1731571>warbandok, tard
>>1731663that's Mr. Re Tard to you bloody bastard. The lads and I are kekking at you mate.
>>1731042Yikes sweaty that’s VERY problematic.
>>1731108As I posted in the forums, I think we need to see more secondary effects from changes to population, wealth, etc. That is a direction that a future M&T could go if Paradox handles more of the load when it comes to population dynamics and it becomes easier to model the economy, etc. I think that would be a big step forward.
>>1731042>money doesn't existSo basically this is going to be the same Victoria 3 trash where instead of having a hard simulation they have a soft one.
>>1731609Generally speaking in a game like a Paradox one, where you have a lot of the game's simulation neatly packaged into tiles, the bulk of your computation should be embarrassingly parallel. Processing the contents of a tile should be done in a serial manner, but each of these "process the contents of this tile" serial tasks should be given to a thread pool. So if you have 10k tiles and the user has, say, a 24-thread CPU and you allocate a couple threads to non-sim tasks and make a 22-thread pool, each logical core should only have to deal with about 454 tiles - which is much less than 10000 tiles.Not everything can be done this way. A lot of country-internal stuff can be, but at some point you do need to deal with things like diplomacy and trade (and these may also be parallelized to an extent) but even if they can't be parallelized as much, you've still cut down on the worst of the workload dramatically. And in any case something like having multiple resources per tile is going to (a) be a minor change even within the context of the individual tile and (b) fall under the category of embarrassingly parallel workload, aka the part of the sim that's easily cut down by just getting a CPU with more cores.
>>1731701You are trivializing the complexity of multi-core thread allocation and generalizing the percentage of parallel operations of Paradox games (if tiles were actually mostly independent from each other then it would indeed be relatively simple to do such operations -and as boring as a bunch of excel columns with no cross-dependent variables-, but the presence of several bottlenecks where data must be congregated, actions that require the results of other operations before occuring and a plethora of checks must occur inside EU5 for there to be a game at all; not to mention the link between what's going on in the background and its graphical representation that must obviously be maintained at all times).
Money is not real and I'm tired of pretending it is, may as well just create it from thin air, like irl
>>1731715
>>1731523Congratulations, you'll get a shitty game where the main challenge is to solve a spreadsheet puzzle before rolfstomping all over the AI who can't solve the spreadsheet puzzle as nearly as well and thus falls behind the player.
>>1731709>You are trivializing the complexity of multi-core thread allocationHow so?>and generalizing the percentage of parallel operations of Paradox games (if tiles were actually mostly independent from each other then it would indeed be relatively simple to do such operationsMost of what goes on in a tile should indeed be independent from each other. Paradox is working from an engine that was originally single-core, so they have a lot of cases where the design wasn't particularly disciplined, but they are working on improving that, gradually. Currently Paradox games have each thread assigned a particular set of types of tasks (see pic) but they do aspire to eventually have the "pool & pipeline" approach wherein each stage of the simulation pipeline is made as parallelizable as possible, the least-parallelizable stages are kept as thin as possible, and each stage gets sent to a thread pool when the previous stage is finished.>-and as boring as a bunch of excel columns with no cross-dependent variables-,This is nonsensical.>but the presence of several bottlenecks where data must be congregated, actions that require the results of other operations before occuring and a plethora of checks must occur inside EU5 for there to be a game at all; not to mention the link between what's going on in the background and its graphical representation that must obviously be maintained at all times).What are you talking about? The vast majority of stuff that goes on in a tile doesn't depend on the contents of other tiles. A population being hired to work in a factory doesn't depend on anything external. Pop growth, pop opinion change, etc., all tile-internal. Things like tax revenue can be handled by accumulating the results on a per-tile basis and then having a later section of the simulation pipeline just gather the results from each tile, which is less parallelizable but also a much thinner pipeline stage.
>>1731747Forgot pic.
>>1731741Then just make it easier for the AI. :^)
I want every single eu4 and vicky3 pajeet to leave this board immediately, I don't want you to dirty up this place before Johan's coronation with your filthy doo doo stained hands.
>>1731769I don't think posters shitting up the board play ANY Paradox game.
Can’t wait for the extended timeline mod
>>1731575But in EU you play as the state, so it doesn't matter if some region has an active economy, if you, as the state, don't have control over it, might as well don't exist.
>>1731715FIAT money was a mistake. We should have kept the Bretton Woods system.
>>1731788>US goes bankrupt because of VietnamYes. You should've. :^)
>>1731575he is well aware of it you mentally ill trannyits a design choice read his fucking posts before spouting your retarded headcanon
>>1731791no, he compared low state control to living in haitihe is a completely deranged statist
>>1731785>t. eu4babhorrifyingly wrong, especially for a game that fancies itself as "simulationist"the wealth generated should still affect the local economy, pops, etc, even if it cannot be taxed
>>1731715But money is not real.Kinda like sports.They are just real in our minds.
>>1731042>>1731073>>1731344Why are you fucking retards saying based just because he admits a shithole is a shithole while ignoring that it's a horrible design decision
>>1731818You are free to mod it in yourself and enjoy minute long ingame days.
>>1731692I think he means the simulation will be even softer than that, because even in Victoria 3 money exists, and cycles. While it looks like it will be mana like in EU4, where it is created from the void and then cast back into the void. Except in the case of loans, I guess.
>>1731715minting is a thing in eu5
>>1731716They're not inflating economy, they're just transferring value from the savings accounts & paychecks of the working class directly into the government's hands (and then giving it out to their cronies) in order to avoid taxing the wealthy.Inflation is simply a hidden tax, or, even more simply, inflation is theft.
>>1731924>They're not inflating economy, they're just transferring value from the savings accounts & paychecks of the working class directly into the government's hands (and then giving it out to their cronies) in order to avoid taxing the wealthy.They're not inflating economy, they're just balancing various types of current financial risk vs future working class risk by adjusting the cost of capital, allowing the profit margins to be thicker therefore allowing for bigger velocity of economical activity (which means giving more/no less jobs positions).>Inflation is simply a hidden tax, or, even more simply, inflation is theft.Inflation is simply quantum physics of economy and finance, or, even more simply, retards love to use the word.
>>1731928>They're not inflating economy, they're just balancing various types of current financial risk vs future working class risk by adjusting the cost of capital, allowing the profit margins to be thicker therefore allowing for bigger velocity of economical activity (which means giving more/no less jobs positions).That's a fancy way of saying that by reducing the value of a paycheck they've made labour cheaper. A wealth transfer from the workers to the already-wealthy.
>>1731715money is a spook
>>1731935are you retarded lolall the rich need to do is make sure the leftists (as they bootlick the media and corporations) import so much cheap labour that native working class get's devalued and it's ok to pay less because they're le evilthat is absolutely the safer way of doing things
>>1731939Are you retarded? Inflation is an even more effective form of class warfare than mass scab immigration (though that's a problem too); in Canada for example roughly 40% of all the currency was issued in the last five years meaning everyone who works for a living took a 40% pay cut before even considering downward pressure on wages by inflation.
>>1731798He literally mentioned its possible to simulate an economy in low control areas but it would have to be another system and would hurt performance so he's not doing it
>>1731008You can't place a price tag on your souls salvation, anon.
>>1731156It sounds like he tries to simulate local power with us having to explicitly declare vassal there. Which should be automated, because local power should be there regardless if we declare them official or not. It'd actually be something if they have different power (and obligation) depending if they're official or not, but they straight up not existing if we don't declare them ours is not ideal.
>>1731042>having a safe society = having lots of centralized control
>>1731042>>1732002based and truthpilledanarckiddies and communards btfo
>>1732012>Britain conquers Kyoto>obviously can't control it well>almost the entire economy gets deleted overnight>half of Japan starves and decivilizes
>>1732013>>Britain conquers Dublin>>obviously can't control it well>>almost the entire economy gets deleted overnight>>half of Ireland starves and decivilizes
>>1732013>almost the entire economy gets deleted overnightWhat the fuck do you mean by that? Source?
>>1732016Ireland didn't just implode the second Britain conquered them. In fact it took quite a while and was caused by factors largely independent of control and in some cases exacerbated by their high level of control.>>1732018See >>1731042Having low control of an area means that the wealth of that area doesn't even exist.
>>1732013lol retard the lost economy goes into the rebels and localsalso implying sea route won't give you control if you have diplo range in the first place
>>1732022>retard the lost economy goes into the rebels and localsno no NO! I will open a business in hatti and you can't stop me!
>>1732019Wait, couldn't this be a legitimate way to destroy an enemy? Defeat them in war and annex a bunch of shit that you can't connect to. You won't be able to hold it, but it won't matter. Because you can't control it then the whole economy will collapse and lots of the population will die. Then when they finally take it back it's now borderline worthless.
>>1732019>Having low control of an area means that the wealth of that area doesn't even exist.As I understood it, it doesn't exist in a way that is relevant to the game. I don't think he means the degree of economic activity happening changes by control, but instead there is no framework for your governmental estates to "take control" of the local economy as they haven't established their presence, are suppressed by the locally rooted estates etc. Now the major complain here seems to be, but the money just vanishes! No one gets to have it! Well, the people living there get to have it and they spend it on OF hoes. Nobody complains about OF making money go to the ether and yet it's real. I don't expect or want the game to be a full simulation without convenient abstractions, especially when they save performance and improve gameplay.
>>1732022>the lost economy goes into the rebels and localsFalse. It goes to the rebels only.>>1731156>Lack of Control = less economy actually existsAlso see>>1731837where he says locals don't get the lost economy because it would be too complex.
>>1732030>it doesn't exist in a way that is relevant to the game. I don't think he means the degree of economic activity happening changes by controlWell that's exactly what he said. The less control you have the less economy actually exists.>OF making money go to the ether and yet it's real.No? The money gets transferred from one person to another. It still exists.
>>1732019>economy does not exist in state of anarchyso? why shouldn't it be abstracted, the value still exists but not in a way it matters for the player, rebels use it, something else might use itcontrol isn't just le state but also the people having control and having order in the region
>>1732037the people aka estates in this case
>>1732036Well that's exactly what he said. The less control you have the less economy actually exists.No, he said>Having low control of an area means that the wealth of that area doesn't even exist.The wealth exists, you just don't get to tax it and neither do your estates. They don't control the economy therefore it's the same as it not existing, because the money does not go to any of the players in the game which are nations and their estates. If Ireland recaps Dublin it will be just as wealthy as ever minus damages from war, but Ireland will instantly have complete control of the economy.>No? The money gets transferred from one person to another. It still exists.Yea and from there it goes straight to crack dealers who don't pay taxes. Now you'll respond, but once those crackdealers go to Walmart my noble estates is finally going get its share!!! No, because they buy at the local Walmart run by the local nobles who spend their money on the local OF girls and the circle continues endlessly.
>>1732037>the value still existsIt does not, as explicitly stated by Johan himself.>but also the people having control and having order in the regionThen why is it directly contingent upon connection to your capital? If "control" is actually just supposed to be a general measure of a society functioning normally and lawfully then why would it be so strongly tied to proximity to the capital? In this case it would make more sense for it to be able to more easily become unsafe, but it simply being far away from your capital wouldn't automatically make it unsafe.>Every location that you own has a control value, which is primarily determined by the proximity it has to the capital, or another source of authority in your country. There are only a few things that can increase it above the proximity impact, but many things that can decrease it further.
>>1731156
>>1732044
>>1732043>explicitly stated by johan himselfthis is like taking pilestedt's words about how every gun in helldivers 2 has 500 hidden stats seriously
>>1732042>The wealth exists>>1731156>less economy actually existsVerbatim, literally what he said.The only wealth that exists is the wealth that you could tax, and the only wealth that goes to the estates is the portion of what you could tax that you don't tax.>To clarify, only the money that is in the “potential” row exists, and anything you don’t tax on that goes to the estates.So in this, if you were to increase control to 100% then you would create 0.32 extra wealth out of thin air.
>>1731558well yes both of the take place on earth so he map will be the same
>>1732043sure, it's not created in the game but the math still exists for how much money is lost and rebels use it to fund themselvesJohan is a based statist and the control is an esl choice and could be changed to something else
this thread reeks of /gsg/
>>1731558>>1731108
>>1732053you mean the gsgcord troons that started chimping out?
>>1732055i mean yeah but also schizophrenic doomposting that seems typical of /gsg/ ever since they changed their OP to whine about how EU5 will never be good
>>1732043>If "control" is actually just supposed to be a general measure of a society functioning normally and lawfully then why would it be so strongly tied to proximity to the capital?It's not. You're mixing up proximity and control. I think the former influences the latter but they're two different systems.
>>1732062I know that they're different, but it's been stated that the most important factor is proximity and that there's only a few things outside of proximity that can increase it.
I think part of the issue is that people are equating it with autonomy in how that worked in MEIOU. But it's not. As I understand it somewhere like Liverpool would have high control and then estate power would then represent the autonomy of that area while say the Shetlands would have low control and whatever estate power is there is meaningless as a result. If it was autonomy you could (emphasis on could) have it so that Liverpool has high autonomy even though it's obviously far more entwined with the state than the Shetlands who could also have high autonomy but whose needs would almost certainly be accountable to the state as to not starve on their islands. The money disregarded as low control ends up seeming to represent things from malicious local actors like rebels to shit like transport costs and higher costs of basic subsistence. The latter being stuff that one could argue would be interesting to simulate for a deeper and "deeper" simulation but not something worth any performance costs it'd create (and honestly not something the vast majority would ever look at IMO).
>>1731108All complaints aside I'm "glad" we're finally getting into issues that may be controversial. Allows us to test how open the Tinto Talks are actually supposed to be and probably gives a lot more feedback than the "Johan al-Ghaib" meme spam.
>>1732066Yes, Prussia has been confirmed.
Go back and ask reddit
Your bait is boring now
>>1731234The AI is a cheating cuck that has zero skill to begin with. Any more competence it gets will be artificial modifiers.
>>1732096jotran is programming the ai specially to let in as many negro migrants as possible to be used as BBC death battalions and raze all white lands
>>1732016You said that as if the Ireland think was a mistake and not something planned.
Map.
>>1732071Kill yourself.
>>1731798>he compared low state control to a country with low state control
>>1732133Haiti is a place with low state control but not all places with low state control are Haiti.
More state control makes the economy better, which is why North Korea is the world's most prosperous nation.
>>1732111do /gsg/oids really create these bizarre fantasies and then get angry over them
Less state control makes the economy better, which is why the nomadic people of the Sahel are the most prosperous nation.
>>1732159>has to dig all the way to non-civilizational groups of Africans for an "I know you are but what am I" tier response
>>1732159How about a more contemporary comparison?Argentina :)
>>1732182No, I just don't want to engage with someone who is disingenuously comparing Feudal and Pre-Industrialisation societies to modern day economies that don't have to worry about whether their taxes are being collected, let alone if the collected taxes even belong to the crown and not one of the other social classes.>>1732186The Sahel still has nomadic tribes because the states there do not enforce their borders properly.
>>1731935You don't understand.
I expect mayo or whatever the big autistic overhaul mod ends up being to explicitly repurpose this as "law and order" and use their own system for "ability of the state to direct things"
https://strawpoll.com/NPgxElAGKZ2https://strawpoll.com/NPgxElAGKZ2https://strawpoll.com/NPgxElAGKZ2let's get this over with
>>1732037>the value still exists but not in a way it matters for the playerMoney is a social construct, so if there is no government to enforce this construct, money is just a printed paper or a shiny rock.
>>1732209>no argument
>>1732324administration efficiency is already in MEIOU, call it taxation efficiency, control does sound out of place.
>>1731790God i wish it happened
Will there be a slider for migration? I don't want to be fully culturally enriched by the 1400s Paradox FFS.
stfu anglopajeet
>>1732513who are you replying to?
>>1731042>I'd ask you if you rather want to open a company in Haiti today, or in lets say Brussels?Haitia actually has a billionaire btw. He's a Jew of Syriac who is the leader of the entire afro-Jewish Haitian community despite being of Syriac descent, and is responsible for the importing of many of the guns currently being used by the various gangs in Haiti. Curiously, despite making it a priority to take control of various ports in Haiti, the gangs left the port that Bigio's multi-billion dollar company owns alone.I'm sure it's just a coincidence though.
>>1732603how do they do it bros?and you cant pull the nepotism card in haiti
>>1732614How do they do what? Outsmart and manipulate Haitians? I've shit things that could do that
>>1732603He probably has private security, dumdum.
>>1732603Holy based
>>1732603The big ngubus are paid off.The small ngubus know they have better guns than them.
>>1732603>look and act like a rat>name is "gilbert"
>>1732096Paradox AI doesn't get any special bonus or cheats unless you play on hard. AFAIK it's even affected by the FOW.
I wonder how the new world Crops will effect the the population or even if they will spread to old world with trade
>>1732688>new world CropsThe opposite also happened. Like the introduction of sugar cane into the Caribbean Islands, thing that kickstarted the "slave trade triangle" and the first import of nignogs into America.
>>1732753Fuck, this reminds me the Canaries were still not conquered by Castile at this point and still were 100% Berber and Pagan. I now know who will be my first playthrough.
>>1732753Oh yeah that also is something that should have an affect on population of new world too and do not forget the cattle
>>1733018>and do not forget the cattleThe nigger cattle?
>>1732820You think they will have a tag?If I had to guess I would say won't.
A reminder you have to be 18 to post here
Can we expect that institutions like the HRE and Chinese court will be fleshed out or will we have to rebuy the exact same EU4 DLC for EU5?
@1733097do you actually think this is funny or is this just some pathetic attempt to trigger dopamine releases using (you)s
>>1733118You now pay for cultural works or art so I imagine that's how institutions will work. You also have a cultural currency
>>1733133>troons thinks not giving based anons le yous will stop them kek in your face mate
>>1732688How will Johan simulate Irish deadly addiction to potatoes?
When is this guy dropping a screenshot of Western Europe?
>>1733162Probably in May.>>1733118The HRE no. With the start date I expect a deeper focus with shit like the Golden Bull and the like coming up along with the much more relevant "Problem of Two Emperors". China probably.
>>1733174go back to /gsg/ you mongoloid
what a terrible thread
My predictions>Game will be 60-70 at launch>Ui will be the same despite johan saying its subject to change and everyone complaining >Flavor will only be events for the most part and some imperator style missions for important countries. >Game will run fine >Mechanically will be good but game will get boring with lack of railroading and flavor for later parts of the game
>>1733258Basically CK3 then? The deciding factor would be speed of updates then.
>>1733258That's a miracle launch for paracuck standards, we should have a solid game in a couple years
>>1733258Pretty sound thqh.
>>1733258god I wish! anyway I'll pirate and buy the base game on a sale for creampieapi most likely
>about 500 year of gameplay>1337 start date>vic starts in 1836motebros...
>>1730558lol at anyone who believes this game won't be a mission tree extravaganza like EU4
>>1733378No, the game will have around 150 years of gameplay. The remaining 350 will be exlusively for the twitch streamers to mop up their world conquests, just like EU4.
>>1733451Do you actually believe all the bullshit you're posting about le medieval communism and le 21st century migration in 1337?Like surely a troll would have gotten bored by now.
>>1733470He's legit mentally ill. He doesn't believe that shit but he thinks he's owning some imaginary enemy by doing this.
>>1733475see that's the funny part. he didn't say any of that. it's a thought phantom in your mentally ill mind. that or your axe wound has festered enough to alter your perception of reality.
>>1730558the will be a bloated overdesigned mess, enjoy your your flavuh (win more buttons)
His mom must have fed him lead when he was a kid
>>1733470>surely a troll would have gotten bored by nowno way to get bored when everyone keeps talking about him and his posts
>>1733451You're not fooling anyone, Robbie.
>>1733480>>1733494>robbie is talking to himselfwhich personality is a real woman, robbie?
>>1733461whats wrong with mission trees? and I mean good mission trees
>>1733512Obvious thread bumping shill is obvious
>>1733512>good mission treesno such thing exists, half assed flavour that's railroaded is cancerjust missions and not gay mission trees was a better system
>>1733526>>1733532kys newfag
EU3 missions > EU4 mission trees just need them to be a lot more varied
>>1733542>10 years>oldfagyou really are memeing lmao. 10 years ago is still newfag territory, newfag.
>>1733536>just missing and gay mission trees isn't it the same basically? minus the railroading. like how would you make a country more flavourful?
>>1733512>good mission treesno such a thing
damn janny do be purging lol
>>1733593I petition them to treat "Project Caesar" the same as Victoria 3 and remove excessively garbage posting.
>>1733594why did he do it?
>>1733461the mission trees will be respectful at launch, then after the first DLC they'll realize all the fanbase wants is mission trees, and it'll slowly spiral into what EU4 is now
>>1733594IP count never meant anything. Shitposters are constantly cycling through new IPs anyway, it's why this guy posts every day despite getting banned. All IP count ever did was allow anons who were losing arguments to point out that the IP count of a thread with 50+ posters didn't go up after someone made fun of them.
>>1733378I already expected that. Alongside the inevitable EU5 - V3 conversion save files.
>>1733542>10 years>oldfaglulz
>>1733565You could implement global modifiers more aggressively. If you want to play in a sandbox and not pursue an objective, you just get penalties, instead. Europe had every reason to avoid the Ottomans and look for other ways into India.
>>1731154We're retvrning to Victoria 2's drawings instead of EUIV's 3D shit
>>1731551>>1731108The province density here is way too much. It was already too much in Imperator, and if the player has to siege every small province down to win a war instead of just the key provinces that have forts then it will be a chore.Speaking of Imperator, I wonder if this game will have the Imperator name instead of the EU name, given how the map looks and what's been revealed so far. Maybe it will be Imperator Universalis or something lol
>>1733730If anything they'll have a variation of imperator's fort system so when you take a fort everything in its control zone flips to you.
>>1733480Literally nobody speaks like this. Like Don Quixote, you're charging at windmills thinking they're giants.
Is it normal to feel second-hand embarassment from looking at someone's posts?
what is it with the absolutely abhorrent posts in this thread?
>>1733864Mentally ill on a schizo crusade against his delusions.
>>1733864It's the same people who made all of those awful FRE BAHTUN XDDD threads and posts on the lead up to Victoria 3's release. If that didn't bait enough people, they'd start spamming Simpsons porn, scat and n*ggers.
>>1733890kek nootice how he probably won't return until his ban is over in 3 days. newfag can't even bypass a 4chin ban
>>1733378>ends in 1837>Vic content will be in gameJohan will make a Vic mod for EU5 confirmed
>>1733864It's a speculation thread going off of a handful of forum posts. What did you expect? Finding out that Haiti has a billionaire/resident Bond villain was cool at least.
>>1734050>Finding out that Haiti has a billionaire/resident Bond villainThat's not even that strange for the caribbean region. Just check who are the richest person (or families) in any of those countries, and 90% of the times is just some white/jew/chink guy totally unrelated to your original inhabitant of that place.I think the only exception is Cuba, for obvious reasons.
>>1734011oh there you are again lurkin. i guess from phone?
Stop responding to the schizoposter.
>>1734029>RGOs>Buildings (factories)>Can move your toy soldiers aroundThe Victoria Universalis mod for EU5 is going to be better than Victoria 3
>>1733730>I wonder if this game will have the name of Paradox's flagship series or of a game that was widely hated and abandoned shortly after released
I hope you can invite Turkic pops as colonists into the European land you conquer as a Muslim ruler. Al-Andalus shall rise again.
phonephosting intensifies
>>1730558>Cost of the CourtWhy? Why not just call it Court Maintenance?
>>1734276Obvious shill thread bumping is obvious.
>>1734275Dangerously based.
>>1734293It is 100% historical, though. Anatolia wasn't filled with Turkic tribes until the Seljuks. Same thing in Spain. If I want to reverse the Reconquista, and fill Iberia with Berbers, I will. The fall of the Emirate of Grenada is not until 1492.
Are you retards replying to yourselves and getting angry at the posts you wrote yourselves? Why does this board attract the worst kinds of schizos?
I miss the times when /gsg/ schizos were not aware of these threads
>>1734296>Anatolia wasn't filled with Turkic tribes until the SeljuksIt never was lol, "turks" are anatolian/armenian mutts.
>>1731108I like the little tree images. Much better than just having the land be a vaguely accurate 3D shape in the controlling state's color.
>>1734543Is this the best you shills can do?
>>1734545You're paradoxically paranoid.
>>1730771Bro colonising the new world is the most boring thing to do in EU4
>>1730771The Eu4 start date has 0 European colonies in the AmericasThe EU5 start date begins with a colony in Greenland
>>1734547How much is this feminist cunt paying you?
I've seen climate in the tool tips, how exactly would that work? Java is one of the most populated places in the world but it has very hostile tropical weather.It seems mild Mediterranean weather would be the best but its not the most density populated part of the world by any means
>>1734275>Turkish pops are way European adjacent That's because Turks in Turkey have Greek genes and in Azerbijan they have Georgian genes Real turks look like Kazakhs from the southern parts that are untouched by slav genesA pure full blooded turk would be called a chinaman in Istanbul
@libertarians High state control doesn't mean high taxes it means the region is not ruled by gangs,paralel subersive groups and corrupt caudillos Luxembourg is a high control country and a tax heaven The UK is a low control country (parallel societies,no go zones ,lobbies,etc) and a tax hell
>>1734555It will probably affect the province food production
>>1734554I get paid in EU4 subscription time
Polend
>>1734587are you guys seriously angry about the Byzantine name options
>>1734561Just call it order or social cohesion or something like that.
>>1734690truth is hellenophobic?
>>1734690It’s not “hellenophobic” to find the idea of referring to a kingdom of Greeks who do not even own Rome as “Roman” to be utterly ridiculous. Byzantines were hardcore LARPers.
>>1734690Purple Phoenix Pack was a mistake. Johan should give Byzantines AIDS so they die every game.
>>1734690this is the sovl of old paradox, random jabs at stuff like eu3's tooltips describing how soldiers can't turn into boats, a jab at civilization of all things
Johan specifically shoved the start date back 100 years and for no other reason than to make byzantium easier and they still complain
>>1734758he pushed it 100 years earlier because he loaded up meiou once and liked the feel of the map better
>"byzantium doesn't deserve to be called an empire because it was too weak and decadent by that point">"ahh yes the mighty empire of mali! behold the university of timbuktu; no it's not a mosque made of mud you ignorant cumskins!"t. jotranyou now remember when eu4devs wanted to give mali a mission that destroyed all gold production in europe because some swedetranny (possibly jotran himself) once skimmed through a wikipedia article about mansa musa
>>1734774>You can't make things out of mud because... you just can't okay!!
>ahh yes the mighty empire of mali! behold the university of timbuktu; no it's not a mosque made of mud you ignorant cumskins!"Do you know what an empire is? Use your brain. As long as it serves its purpose, it works. >you now remember when eu4devs wanted to give mali a mission that destroyed all gold production in europe becauseTo represent inflation devaluing specie.
kys historically illiterate americuntsNo one ever called it "byzantine empire" before the enlightenment, "roman" or "eastern roman" is what contemporary chroniclers and historians called it.
>1734792kys robbie and fuck off back to /vg/
Theres only 2 empires, HRE and ERESIMPLE AS
>>1734789They called it kingdom of the greeks.
We need total gsgtard death.
>>1735050Why hasn't /gsg/ been given the old /kspg/ or /qa/ treatment?
>>1735059Honestly? No idea. But we exist, so all that'll do is funnel them HERE.
>>1735050I remember when /gsg/ used to get through 2-3 threads every day. It was dead before this place even existed. Sad state of affairs.
>>1735115never happened
>>1735128It did, you just weren't there.
>>1734555Need volcanic land buff to food production
>>1734555The ideal locations are likely going to be areas with silt deposits and significant quantities of loess, so places like southern England, northern France, Germany, North India, the Yellow River, etc.
>>1734788>To represent inflation devaluing specie.Which is, yet again, a retarded LE MANSA MUSA RICHEST MAN EVARRR!! meme.West Africans really do all act the same when they come into possession of wealth.There's no difference between the average American-born slave descendant and the ruler of the greatest West African empire ever lmao, they all "make it rain" and spend massive amounts of wealth of frivolities should they come into possession of meaningful amounts of money.
>>1735221>Which is, yet again, a retarded LE MANSA MUSA RICHEST MAN EVARRR!! meme.It's a legend-turned-feature, like half of mission mechanics. A massive injection of gold temporarily causes the value to plummet, and mine owners don't bother selling their minerals to the market as a result.And no, his pilgrimage had a real purpose. He splurged in as visible a location as possible to ensure people connected to the Mediterranean, the Indian Ocean, and to the major Asian states would all hear of the episode and consider coming to ply their trades there so his Timbuktu pet project could benefit the state and get them information and contacts they'd previously struggled to acquire.It was a total success.
>>1735224There's not much point talking to a guy too racist to think clearly.
>>1734832wrong
>>1735224>>1735229>replying to yourself to prove how good and not-racist you arecringe
>>1735229Every now and then, there turns out to be someone around who learns from it. I've seen some of the things I searched up and said being circulated around /his/ like gems.
>>1735238>/his/fagThat explains it.If you think Paradox is putting as much thought as you are into anything, I have a bridge to sell you. In Baltimore.
I am going to make a Greek mass migration to the Turkish steppes
So when will they start talking about the actual game and not some worthless bullshit? How does diplomacy work? How do you make alliances? What advantages do they give you? How will dynasties work in the game? How do you claim thrones of other countries? How will religion influence relations between tags? What actually makes different countries different other than their geographical locations? How do armies and warfare work? Will you be able to move every army freely or will they be assigned to a certain region like in V3? Is there military presence similar to naval presence and how does it influence estates and/or unrest? How do you actually interact with the game and will it be fun in the first place?
>>1735327We're on the economy now so we'll continue with that into trade before we get into the other systems IMO. How you make money does underpin what you spend it on, so them figuring it out early matters a lot.
one question about something that was completely immersion breaking for me, no matter where i went colonizing i met tribes that had equal tech as me? Is this how it should be? It kinda sucks that a tribe in moluccas can muster 20k musket units on equal terms with an european power in 1550??
>>1735468yescumskins didn't even know how to bathe till the africans teached it to them in the 15th centuryt. jotran
first time in this thread and 90% of the discussion is just seething turkcelswtf is going on
>>1735468its fairly realistic. armies across the old world were all pretty similar until the industrial revolution turned up. oddly enough, the europeans didn’t actually have a tech advantage over the colonized people. rather it was the saying “god, glory, and gold” that drove europeans to exploit diplomatic and financial ties to colonize and conquer much of the old world prior to the industrial revolution. In the new world, it was mainly the coincidental timing with the societal instability of both the Aztec and Incan empires (and all of the other native tribes) combined with the plague that worsened the instability.
>>1735468> It kinda sucks that a tribe in moluccas can muster 20k musket units on equal terms with an european power in 1550??It's to make up for the fact that you can transport 20k+ guys by ship to the Moluccas in the first place without worrying about logistics.>>1735487>it was mainly the coincidental timing with the societal instability of both the Aztec and Incan empiresThe Spanish both caused those. In the case of the Aztecs, they killed the ruler, triggering the vassal implosion. In the case of the Incas, their king got sick with a Spanish plague when investigating the northern reaches of his empire.
>>1735487Bait or mental retardation?
it is also worth noting that the Incas very quickly adopted the new technology, but were pretty bad at using itstill had a rump state that took another 40 years for the Spanish to destroy, thoughand let's not even get started on the Mapuche
>>1735486swedes are turkish/muslim cock addicts and their behavior naturally radiates toward their braindead shill armiesby shitting on Hellenes they believe they gain extra social creditalso shitting on Hellenes is a type of "work-safe" racism for them, they could never dream of shitting on a brown ethnicity so Hellenes are a socially acceptable target from their point of view
>>1735487>didn’t actually have a tech advantagederangedthe fact that europeans could project power in east asia already proves a sizeable tech advantage
>>1735499>the fact that europeans could project power in east asia already proves a sizeable tech advantageNo. It proves they had a way to derive value from faraway locations.
>>1735327>Will you be able to move every army freely or will they be assigned to a certain region like in V3?Already confirmed that we'll be able to move every unit individually
>>1735506>they had a way to derive value from faraway locations.through a sizeable tech advantage
>>1735497I don't think anyone actually gives a shit about roaches, it's just a big market to exploit and they know how stupid turks are with their money. I read somewhere that a big chunk of Amouranth's (camwhore) income comes from turks giving her all their money for 2 seconds of validation.It's the same idea with pandering to the chinese like blizzard and all the other shit companies have done. Huge market of manchildren who spend all their money on video games games and ethots.
>>1735510No, it's because the following factors:>Ottoman trade policy made a maritime route's monopoly viable and highly profitable>Asia's raw material output was great enough to sustain trade.>European mineral influx from the Americas gave them the ability to earn money for their individual countries by shipping silver off to Asia while skimming some for themselves.
>>1735494not an argument?
>>1731122I Kneel
>>1735487This is Guns, Germs and Steel-type retardation, AKA someone who really should know better doing mental gymnastics to justify the collapse of societies that happened to not be European.
>>1735567and this is still ad hominem, I wanr proper arguments with beautiful compound sentences
>>1730558>>1730574BASILEÍA TON ROMAÍON !also!>pagancucks... amirite fellow pedos?
>>1734543>>1734545>>1734547>>1734554>>1734570theatrum orbis terrarum won...
>>1734832who's they?
>>1735236It's true.>>1735597Western Europeans.
I'm western european and I've never called it the empire of the greeks
>>1735571>MUH AD HOM DEBATE ME! DEBATE ME! DEBATE ME!shut up nerd lol>>1735606you shut up too, your /int/-tier "banter" got stale months ago
>>1735609the irony of this post is that it was typed by a braziloid with only 1.6% nordic prussian ancestry
>>1735612still more than you
>>1735612>typed by a braziloid!>don't care if you said you were western europeanoid! you are braziloid! I just know it! fr fr! no cap ong!lol
>>1735613>s-s-still more than y-you!you will never be white
>>1735616Whiter than you Trayvon
>>1735615ESL meltdown loli dont know why you thirdies try to larp online as white men who conveniently think third world shitholes are le based, its pathetic
>>1735615The fuck is this third worlder syntax? Can you actual nogs go someplace that ESL niggers are welcomed?
>>1735621Utter meltdownAll you need to do is mention that these creatures aren’t white and they sperg out
>ESL niggerswhy are you badmouthing your african cousins Deshawn? Are you experiencing a fentanyl meltie?
>>1735626>utter meltdown>esl meltdownAre you trying to pull off some kind of magick or psychological trick where you repeat something a shitload of times to try and make it come true? Unhinged behaviour tbqhfam
>>1735630More thirdie syntax. Why do all you people type like senile Facebook boomers? Is the median age of iFunny.br now 67?
>>1735629bro, go back to the ohio penitentiary uni lol
>thirdie>thirdie>thirdie>go back to ifunny.brwhy is a brazilian larping as a ethnically diverse american?
>>1735610god, so childish
>>1730558ehhhvanilla eu4 is great fun until you get to a certain level of skill once you have enough game knowledge to get any of the "insane" achievements, the game is just boring by that pointits just too easy because no matter who you play, you will be rank 1 by 1500its just chaining wars, coring, and going through the same bland motions of converting, seizing crownland, pushing techs, etcthe strategy and thrill of the game is goneand then you pick up M/T and never look backif you can successfully do a one faith (most 500+ hour players can) then the game is probably already boring and you need modssame issue in rimworld actually, you wont find a rimworld player without mods up the assthe only game that ive ever found satisfactory without mods are a4x, from the depths, and dwarf fortress honestly the single most revolutionary mechanic that M/T adds is communication efficiency and the OE changes (increased coring time, OE costing men and gold)
>>1735606>>1735609>>1735612>>1735613>>1735615>>1735616>>1735617>>1735618>>1735621>>1735623>>1735626>>1735627>>1735628>>1735629>>1735630>>1735631>>1735632>>1735633>>1735634>>1735636>>1735641>>1735642all me btw, I'm a nigger from minneapolis as well!
damn so pumped up for the next tinto talks. wanna see some juicy info drop about them sieges and warfare so bad
>>1735804>We mentioned buildings in one tooltip earlier, and next week we will talk about how they work in Project Caesar.Newp. It's building time.
i know less history than any other gsg player in this thread. feels bad...
>>1735821Why not study history, then?
>>1735823that's boring. playing gsg is fun
>>1735818for the love of god reform that shit thoroughly
>>1731042He's comflating the ability to tax/bureaucratic reach of the state with the wealth of a province, which is fairly simplistic, and really he should know better.For the timeline in EU4 'the state' essentially 'the player' is in a constant struggle to wrestle control and gain concessions from political entities like the nobility, clergy, merchants, tribes ect. Guess what, if the state doesn't have sufficient bureaucratic control of an area, those tax dollars are going to get siphoned off to the nobility and merchants who dominate that area, they'll impose their own tarrifs, raise their own private militias, and essentially run their own city state until they're de-facto independent.Does it mean those areas are less wealthy because of that? I don't think so necessarily. Atleast MEIOU managed to grasp this nuance, state control=/=wealth, it just means the inability of the state to tax. Makes me worried about the development of this game, if Johan missed this really very fundimental point, how exactly can the real economy be simulated? So merchants and nobles will only invest in provinces with high state control, because the economy supposedly doesn't exist in areas of low state control? That doesn't make sense.
>>1735933i actually think johan is just retarded and didnt explain himself properlyi dont think low control means there is no economic activity and low wealthit just means you and your estates dont have enough control to get taxes out of the locals, and havent displaced the local estate who dont consider themselves a part of your state's estates
>>1735982I don't know, anon, I have a hard time seeing how "the wealth does not exist" could be just a miscommunication.
>>1735984i guess its just weird the example he gives, with haiti and brussels, where its a kind of anarchy factorwhen in other explanations it seems like its more like a government control factor, ie if you are playing as england and your conquer paris, the wealth does still exist, it did exist in the first place, you just cant tax it efficiently, and the moment france conquers it back, the control goes back up and they can make efficient use of the wealth
>>1735984It means, "The wealth isn't captured by any of the game's abstractions". The game acts as though it doesn't exist at all to emphasize the player's need for urgent state control to profit.
>>1736003That makes sense from a gameplay perspective, it's just a fucking weird way of representing it. Why not make control a separate system like 'law and governance' and keep autonomy/communication efficiency separate. Then Johan can have taxation represent wealth like he actually wants because you can argue without law and order bandits just steal all the wealth
>>1736011>Why not make control a separate system like 'law and governance' and keep autonomy/communication efficiency separate.Because "Law and Governance" would just be CE, autonomy, and culture modifiers in a trench coat.>Then Johan can have taxation represent wealth like he actually wants because you can argue without law and order bandits just steal all the wealth"Bandits took it all" isn't so much better as an explanation than "they spent it on goods and services from elsewhere/in non-monetizable ways/paying rebels" that you would change systems to explain what's essentially the same outcome.
>>1731131by taking loans and murdering them to avoid paying.
>>1735933I think this is the correct way of looking at it. A lack of control means the economy that does exist is eaten by the low control in the first place so transport costs, preference for payments in kind, barter etc. An economy exists but not in any way that can be extracted by the state or the estates.>>1732064 >>1735982 >>1736018
>>1736081The most important part is do they self develop or not. 0% control should have similar development to and 100% control 0% tax region. Johan says that it'd only benefit conquerors but 0% control rich region with positive unrest (like the Lowlands) should rebel constantly and make conquest still not worth it sometimes
>>1736085You need mass migration to simulate settler colonies among other things, retard-kun.
>>1736089>we need more migrants in our countries!! why?? because we just need them you chud
>>1731417funniest post in the whole thread>>1735487very close second
>>1736085Stop forcing this stupid meme, you unfunny /gsg/ swarthy nigger
>>1736096>>1736158>>1736163Who are you quoting?>Who are you quoting?Who are you quoting?>Who are you quoting?Who are you quoting?>Who are you quoting?Who are you quoting?>Who are you quoting?Who are you quoting?>Who are you quoting?Who are you quoting?>Who are you quoting?Who are you quoting?>Who are you quoting?Who are you quoting?>Who are you quoting?Who are you quoting?>Who are you quoting?Who are you quoting?
>>1736174I don't know what's more depressing. The fact your post is most likely ironic or the extremely slim possibility it isn't ironic.
>>1736175Lad, I am sincere in my hate for troons and historically inaccurate DEIfied vidya.
>>1736176No you're not. You're putting on a facade because you hate the very people you're pretending to be, for some fucking bizarre reason. Maybe you don't have any strong feelings whatsoever and you're doing this for le ebin trollz and baitz. I don't know, I can't read your mind over the internet.
>>1736195>reddit spacing>LE MATE LAD XD ISN'T IT FUNNY I'M PRETENDING TO BE BRITISHYour post gave me cancer.
>>1736204What is the point of all this, actually?Nobody would make posts like this without at least thinking "holy shit this is incredibly cringe" if they had the slightest bit of self-awareness. Are you just le trolling? Is there some kind of political angle to this? I genuinely don't get it.
>>1736175It isn't. He's been posting like this about Victoria 3 over two years ago, too.You might be talking with an actual, one foot in the grave, boomer from r/The_Donald. Just absolute cringe.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-kkBupuo6w
>>1736195Fuck off newfag
>>1736208Back when we had IP counters, you could see him switching between LE KEK XD posting and ranting at people for being ESLs. I don't think he's being genuine.
>>1736213And I've told you already, 10 years is a newfag territory.
>>1736214No it's not?
>>1736215Yes it is. 10 years ago was 2014, which was two years before the electionfag surge of 2016.
>>1736216Lad, if you started posting in 2014 then you're a based oldanon.
>>1736215>nuh-uh!Nice argument. He's right, you need to remember a /v/ before /pol/, and the time /b/ was the most active board to not be fresh meat.I miss old /v/.
>>1736219Mate, I fought in GamerGate I and I am currently fighting in GamerGate II. I'm the Basedest and Oldest of the Based OldAnons here.
>>1736215>>1736218>2014 is oldfagMy friend, I've joined 4chan circa 2007 and only recently I've started thinking of myself as a oldfag.
>>1736223You came here from your Discord bunker last weekend. You're misleading no anons whatsoever
>>1736218>>1736222Kill yourself, whether or not this was meant to be ironic.>le gamergateCaught you. Who the fuck thinks about gamergate in 2024? Aside from leftist types who are still seething about seeing a mild amount of pushback?
>>1736224>missed obvious clueYou truly are a newfag, newfag.
>>1736226>Leftist soiling his diapers trying to accuse based anons of being leftiesKek, the shame in you is palpable >>1736227>Looney troon trying to shame a based OldAnonTippity Toppity Kek!
>>1736228If this isn't some high-quality bait I urge you to go outside. Get some fresh air. If this is some high-quality bait, I urge you to do the same. Stop LARPing as people you despite and want to kill, it isn't healthy.This is your last (You). Savour it.
>>1730792>we might both get a good game from paradox AND watch them finally die
>>1730792The forums are full of hype tho
>>1736088If they develop themselves, that's money the estates don't have to spend. It means you'll want to secure access to those rich provinces without governing them so they can build themselves up, then be taken and integrated in one fell swoop.
>>1736303thats cool and all, but where's the hot boiling racemixing action we all know and love parakeks games for, sister?
GYATT this /tg/ neckbeard is mad
>>1736326he sounds based kek
>>1736326I don't think it's the same guy.That being said we did have another schizo from /tg/ show up and disappear recently.
>>1736330yeah the way he structures his words and those particular expressions just happen to coincide by accident. poor boy malding for years :(
>>1736330Saved
>>1735933>if Johan missed this really very fundimental point, how exactly can the real economy be simulatedjohan has repeatedly proven himself to be a complete retardhe also probably no longer plays strategy games, so he tries to "guess" what people would like instead of implementing features that he personally thinks would improve the game
>>1735933>if Johan missed this really very fundimental point, how exactly can the real economy be simulated?what? shut the fuck up you fucking dork. no fucking shit eu5 is gonna make certain assumptions and not all of them are gonna be "realistic" or whatever. it's not gonna be anywhere near perfect so drop that retarded fucking expectation now. you pussies find anything to bitch about. just be glad eu5 is simulating more things than eu4 did.
it's cool johan hired a bunch of modders and other people simply to make sure as much eu4 flavor is in eu5 as possible. they probably won't succeed despite johan's statements, and eu5 will still feel barebones compared to eu4, but i think the attempt is cool so i give kudos.
>>1736385The mechanics they have already shown so far has made the game deeper than vast shallow sea that makes up eu4
Does robbie have a life at all?
>>1736422>>1736403>>1736258>>1736232Can you leave already, newfag
Reminder that robbie samefagged and argued with himself for like 150 posts in the previous thread
>>1736504I was there, that saturday... it was something, a show of absolute autism of gargantuan scale.
damn janny got xim once again o7
>>1736208>You might be talking with an actual, one foot in the grave, boomer from r/The_Donald. Just absolute cringe.I don't think you do, but on the off chance you actually believe this then you have literal non-meme autism spectrum disorder
>482 posts nowDear Lord
>>1736569wish janny would show up within 12 hours next time
>>1736594639 in the archive lel
>>1736633Autism speaks indeed.
First I'm hearing of thisI feel like a retard for feeling hopeful, its almost certainly going to be shit, Johan and Wiz are both colossal retards
>>1736727Most anons here are somewhat convinced Johan will redeem himself and from what we've seen that he's making a game for the "grognards" which this place has been clamouring for for some time. Personally, I'm not 100% that he's reformed as a developer but Johan the person seems a lot more humble and seems contrite for his arrogance surrounding Imperator's release so I'm pleased so far.
>>1736731We'll seeThe incompetence of Paradox as game devs is actually way worse than most people realize and has gone unchanged for well over a decade now. Like real life is modelled by curves, right? Algebra, diminishing returns, all that fun. Core part of game design/balance. Paradox is allergic to that shit. Basically every game but Victoria II lacks it, and even there its basically an emergent phenomenon from the mechanics themselves, like the core concept was so good that even their trash code couldn't ruin it
>>1736750Victoria 2 stops being fun when you realize the fun part is only economic development which in itself is extremely limited and the rest of the game is just as jank and unfun as their other games.
>>1736752all these games are just heroin tailored specifically towards autists no mater how good a game is you nobody spend 1k+ hours playing it over and over again
>>1736303In a balanced game, raising control in that kind of region should be as hard as conquering foreign province, or at least as hard as integrating Sweden as Denmark. The only saving grace would be that they would not be united to each other and only count their own power just like HRE vassals. But if they do... It'd be a perfect game.Essentially, 0% control locations should behave like very elevated vassal in all but name.
Having a way to basically steal 0 (or very very low) control areas without a war would be greatIt would help discourage blobbing without consolidation
>>1736957Name 3 (three) times that happened in EU timeframe
>>17370201. I saw it happen in my dreams once, but I don't remember which countries and territories were specifically involved. Also historians forgot to record it2. The village of Uwegweno joining the Buwehwe tribe in central Borneo in 15063. My history teacher told me Mansa Munsa peacefully annexd the entire middle east because everyone thought he was a cool black man and they didn't like their previous rulers. Although this happened slightly before Eu5s timeframe
It's uphttps://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-talks-9-24th-of-april-2024.1670510/
>>1737099woah i'm here early for once, right as the diary drops
>>1737099did an AI draw this
>>1737099>There are hundreds of different types of buildings>70 different types of goods that seems excessive tbqh
>>1737099So it's basically Victoria 3 but not as shit and EU time frameEven has production methods and literacy
>there are goods and food stockpilesShitty3 completely mogged by this
>>1737120I think so, check out the windows on that orange building
>>1737099It really is Grey Eminence if it was real.
>>1737099So, considering that each location or whatever only produces one type of goods, starting as an OPM somewhere in India or Burma you won't be able to build forts because there's only wood and no stone?
>>1737142You can trade for raw resources
> and some can only be built in other countries. Some you can only build when there is no owner of a locationHoly shit. Foreign investments? Colonisation mechanics?
>>1737099>ZoC is backlame
>stockpiles confirmeduhh.... wizsisters....
>>1737157
>>1737099>different production methods>gorillion buildings>morbillion resources typesI'm going to get filtered, that sounds tedious as hell
>>1737124Many buildings aren't for production. It seems we're going to be looking at things like giving rebels literal bases, making embassies, making foreign resource outposts, etc.
>>1737175How did it work in Imperator compared to EU4? Never played it
>>1737175>you nee to invent walking past a fortthat's fucking dumbif you don't want it to happen a lot just model the things that stopped people from doing it
>>1737208I think they're trying to avoid modeling supply lines.
>>1737125So it's basically kino or at least kino adjacent
>>1737099I got a little bit of a boner from reading this
>>1737211supply lines weren't a thing in the period
>>1737099>Of course, in the Napoleonic Age, you can freely ignore ZoC if you got the tech for it.pretty cool
can someone explain how this is fair to wiz? if eu5 does trade and market simulation in a more fun (more performant) way, then v3 is pointless. this isn't fair to wiz.
>>1737124>70 different types of goods>excessivewhy?not like these "goods" will have any value other than a modifier bonus to the province that makes them like in eu4only "food" appears to have any macroeconomic impact
>>1737230Hi wiz! Maybe you wouldn't be in this situation if you didn't make a shit game in the first place
>>1737233You build buildings and units with them. Didn't autistically manage your economy? Sorry it doesn't matter that you have a million ducats, you lack the steel to make more cannons
>>1737233>not like these "goods" will have any value other than a modifier bonus to the province that makes them like in eu4how about you read the diary first you retard
>>1737230AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>>1737247What is it?
>>1737249minor attracted person inclusivity
oh fuck they retained the "production method" cancer from vic3paradox is paradox so they do not want their effort to be wasted, so rather than taking the L and accepting the loss they are trying to port mechanicsnot as if johan or anyone in his team would have the talent or knowledge to create a new economic system>>1737249americans are obsessed with abbreviations and expect non-americans to be able to understand them no matter the circumstance or context
>>1737249market access price impact. a good produced in a particular state will be cheaper in that state than it is in the entire market. i.e. steel requires coal. steel will be cheaper if you build steel in a state that is producing coal.
>>1737256Yeah that has me worried, so much micromanagement
>>1737201You can automate it to some extent>And of course, you can automate the production method selection, which will adapt it on a monthly basis based on what resources are available and what would be profitable. The UI also allows for macro decisions regarding production methods
>>1737256>>1737261another thing to keep in mind is that eu games traditionally have really low ROI on economic buildings, to the point where a building that returns its investment after 50 years may be considered a solid optionso either they deviate from this style of gameplay, or buildings will operate on very tight profit margins
>>1737256name a good alternative or I will call you a retard
>>1737271jotran mad kek
>>1737256production methods are not the problem, micromanagement and forced command economy isas long as you can automate it all and you can't interfere with private enterprises, it's actually a good system
>>1737270They increased the interest rate to something around 10%, and you now have middlemen for taxes, even after autonomy. It'll be noticeably different.
>Speaking of profit. The profit of a building is added to the Tax Base of a location, split among the power of the population in the location.so say a "location" is 10% urban and 90% rural (fairly standard back then) and landowners control the vast majority of the landif i build a glass manufactory that employs urban pops, the nobles will end up pocketing most of the profit because of the way wealth is calculated?abstraction fails yet again
>>1737277Yes, hello, have you played an EU game before?
>>1737285yeah, it's dumb
if I build a a place to make timber I don't care which process they're going to use, seems just useless micro for the sake of it desu.
>>1731179Ummm...... Shit
>>1737285Oh, NOW you want different ownership options from V3.Who owned manufactories in the middle ages, anyway? Burghers?
>>1737291no eu game has had production methods or any kind of economic simulation at all, so I don't know what you are on about
>>1737295god seing all you retards get filtered fills me with joy
>>1737298Do, despite multiple comparisons to Imperator, you still expect "private investment"?>>1737299It'll be yet another game for me to enjoy on top of V3.
>>1737297/vst/ isn't one personbut yes it should be the burghers. the power of the nobility really waned outside of rural areas
>>1737306it was already confirmed that estates can build their own buildings, that's private investment
>>1737266>>1737277>automation>trusting the AI to macrobuild shitNo thanks, I'm downloading a mod to dumb this shit down
>>1737308>Buildings can also be categorized into three different categories: >buildings that can produce goods, >buildings that only give effects, >and buildings that can only be built by the estates.Are you sure? I seriously doubt there'll be automation here.
>>1737309Filtered. And the game hasn't even released yet. That's impressive.
>>1737299what is there to filter oh mighty retard?
>>1737313I play multiplayer mostly and doing all of this efficiently just sounds like antifun.
>>1737312Automation of what? Estates building production buildings on their own was confirmed in a comment. As for forcing automated production methods on estate buildings, there is no information on that yet. If it's not in, then it's a shit system, but that remains to be seen.
>>1737315>MPfaggot btfo>antifun
>>1737315>I play multiplayer mostlylmao
>>1737285That's sensible though. A big part of the period was the assertion of city rights, the creation of free cities and the granting of charters freeing major urban areas from their obligations towards the regional nobility who would technically lord over them.
>>1737319Multiplayer is very fun in eu4, lots of scheming and geopolitics going on
>>1737306>It'll be yet another game for me to enjoy on top of V3.If it goes the way of V3 Johan is going to get shitcanned yo realise that right? It has to at least do better than EU4.
>>1737324>Multiplayer is very fun in eu4It isn't as EU4 is intrinsically very unfun
>>1737324Shit on a rock is fun, when it's with friends.Multiplayer concerns are tertiary, below both singleplayer, and modders.
>>1737327>>1737328I guess I'm not a part of the core audience then
>>1737329Glad you finally figured that out.
>>1737285>a "location" is 10% urban and 90% rural (Is that how it works?It might be that a location is either urban or either rural, in which case the nobles wouldnt get much
>>1737333A location is either a rural one, a town or a city. A trinary state.
>>1737324eu4 multiplayer is a different game, its basically just turns into risk and you can ignore 90% of the mechanics
>project Ceaser adds the ability to automate production methods before Victoria 3 does
>>1737339well it seems eu5 does not take into account productivity, only if a good is available
>>1737342If goods consumption is fixed, and standards of living aren't a thing, then the calculation is much simpler.>it's just "fewd"
>>1737342Oh yeah,>And of course, you can automate the production method selection, which will adapt it on a monthly basis based on what resources are available and what would be profitable.Yeah, this feature will likely get canned.
So can i build my own Zildjian? Monopolize high quality goods and its secret sound amazing
>>1737299Hi Lambert you fat fuck
>>1737285ain't that how it worked IRL?
>>1737350>oh yeah, they are totally conspiring to scrap this incredibly simple feature that amounts to 2 lines of code just to own the 4chan chudsmeds
>>1737399>incredibly simpleYou're an idiot and you never coded in your life.
>>1737402no, you are a massive retard who doesn't realize that the feature is already in the game for the AI either wayenabling it for the player is something that can be coded in 5 minutes
>>1737323no it's notget cancer shill
>>1737404>for the AIAnd just like that, years of bitching about Paradox AI disappeared?
>>1737207The biggest difference is that if you occupy all of the forts in an area, then all unoccupied territory in the entire area flips to being under your control after a few days
>>1737408why are you sat there pretending that picking the biggest number out of 4 numbers is a hard thing to code?
>>1737380notownspeople had massive autonomy; noble revenues were limited to their rural estates and serfsif a noble was really autonomous (semi-independent like in france) he could collect the appropriate taxes from the town, not directly collect the profits as if he's entitled to themonly way for such a thing to work IRL would be for the noble himself to actually be involved in urban commerce; practices like that weren't widespreadpop history of course is a cancer and makes any discourse on the subject impossible because you will be discussing with people whose only knowledge of the era is tv shows, videogames and reddit postsas far as the game is concerned: the profits of any building lose their identity by being abstracted into the location's "tax base", then they get redistributed not based on logic but based on the "power" ratio of the locationfor example imagine landowners in victoria2 taking a massive cut from all factories because at the beginning of the game most provinces are ~90% farmers and laborers. it is incredible how this genre only seems to deteriorate
>>1737099Oh yeah so regarding the "money disappearing into the ether when low control" point on the one hand, I actually agree that control should represent the influence of crown + estates, as opposed to representing control of the crown with estates privileges decreasing it. It makes sense to me that if you have a country that gives heavy privileges to nobles, local control would, among other things, represent a functional legal system that can enforce these privileges, prevent runaway serfs, etc. Meanwhile, in low-control areas, the nobles might have to deal with entrenched autonomous local peasant communities in hard-to-reach areas. Same for other estates, in high control areas the state is able to enforce all these monopolies and trade exemptions it granted to the burghers or the church control over marriage and suppression of heresy. Meanwhile, outlying areas might be dens of smugglers and heterodox sects. That is all well and good..The issue for me is that control should represent the influence of national estates (I would also get rid of the concept of 'the crown' entirely, it's incoherent, at least the way Johan explained it 'The state itself' is not a thing, the state is always controlled by some elite group or another. So, for instance, the Tang state would, to simplify a lot, consist of the Tang aristocracy + Eunuchs, and its control in the provinces would effectively measure the influence of these two groups as opposed to various local elites such as more regional landowners who are not integrated into the capital marriage network, or local garrison bigwigs). Put another way, 'control' should represent (among other things) the integration of the location (and its elites) into the national political system. Currently, this is not happening. The only elites that exist are national ones. The game does not represent the influence or even the existence of autonomous regional elites that are only loosely integrated on the national stage.
>>1737439This is bad for lots of reasons, but one I apparently did not predict is economic. Since only the national estates are receivers of wealth, it means that all economic activity that should go to local power holders just disappears, or more accurately, it is going into the coffers of national elites, making them more powerful than they should be and throwing all the historical state-building incentives out of whack. I want to emphasise that outside of Europe, where these types of all-encompassing nationally organised elite networks through formal institutions like the estates exist, the vast majority of global elite economic and other activity is, in Johan's self-assured words 'minor stuff not simulated.' Like the difference between the Chinese gentry and the Polish nobility, the Polish nobility formed a coherent organised political force trying to influence the central government, while the Chinese gentry consisted of hundreds of local clans jealously hoarding local influence and only occasionally interacting with the central government. The game will either make them the same or will just pretend the latter strategy does not exist (despite it being how the vast majority of elites seem to behave globally).
>>1737405No, it's not what? That's exactly how it worked. The whole point of becoming a city in the first place was the charter rights it'd grant to you and the freedom from nobiliary dues. Doesn't matter anyway as there's no 10% urban, 90% rural but a trinary rural, town, city split.
>>1737439>>1737443You copied that from that one guy's forum post.
>>1737439lol french kings were absolutely able to extract taxation from the south of france despite low communication efficiency/high autonomy. zhey just had a lot less control. locals largely did the governing for the king, but that doesn't mean that the area was independent, didn't pay taxes, etc. locals just extracted value in exchange for doing those things, then were able to spend that value on consumption, war, making their villas more extravagant, etc.the problem I have is what models that scenario? that isn't low control because low control means elites get less income too. sSo, is it high control, but low taxation? but I thought distance modelled control not taxation.
>>1737486>the problem I have is what models that scenario?a vassal
>>1737099umm ok where's the map screenshot?
>>1737226How exactly do you think armies were supplied?
>>1737418Because sometimes picking the biggest number isn't actually in the actor's best interest? e.g. what if the Dutch AI desperately needs to build up its navy but its paper buildings are set to the wood production method because they see "big profit = good" leaving no wood leftover for the navy?
>>1737486Vassals. Also high control but low state power.
>>1737509baggage train, looting, foraging, buying local food, supply depots
>>1736330Philosophylet here, who's the guy blocking Leviathan's sword?
>>1737418I would explain to your brainlet ass, but Johan said it's already in and working.
>>1737533Rousseau
>>1737533me
>>1737501This means uncolonized land owned by no one is back in Paradox games, a change from Victoria 3's nonsense 'decentralized country' shit.
>>1737099now look at that
>>1737099Pure kino, everything I wanted from euiv, really hope they don't fuck this up
>>1737519Military gets priority of goods neededWhich would make using scarce lumber unprofitable and cause them to switch production to something else
>>1737554Proof?
>>1737486Now this is a good point. One thing the game currently cannot represent very well is the central government voluntarily devolving certain authority to local elites, who however remain loyal and uphold the influence of the central government (while of course enriching and self-aggrandising themselves on the side, like your southern French nobles, Chinese states also regularly do this with the gentry, where they decentralise certain local government functions to them), and local warlords and bandits seizing power who pay no heed to the central government. This is an important dynamic that seems to happen in many historical empires and the game does not even seem to be trying to simulate it.
What would really make this great is bringing back a western dominant technology groupBut maybe that's too based for johan.Spciy thought of also something like a dynamic dominant technology groupSince literacy is in, maybe you as the chinks for example can become galaxy brain and pump out tech faster than europeans and become the "western" technology group that people have to copy to catch up.
>>1737988Western tech wasn’t dominant till maybe the 1700s. Having it be dynamic based on literacy or meiou-style institutions is much more interesting and realistic.
define "dominant" because europeans had better naval and rifle technology even in the 1500s and indians and chinks were both on record commenting on european rifles
yeah but that's simply an advantage (although a major one), not complete technological dominancegood example: the Indian state of Mysore dominated the world's artillery game for a few decades at the end of the 1700s, and the British failed miserably in attempting to copy them. wasn't until they had annexed the place outright and secured a supply that they were able to even recreate it, let alone improve on it
without having looked into it at all my guess is that there was no amazing generalizable "artillery" strategy from some backwards indian state and there were other factors that contributed to britain struggling to capture the state from across the world. i've noticed people desperately try to underplay european dominance from the renaissance to modernity so this contributes to my prior.
it wasn't a strategy so much as the actual technologyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysorean_rockets
well damn. it's surprising when backwards brown people (rarely, and temporarily - very temporarily) had advancements.
anyways the point is tech cost modifier just for being european makes no sense for 1337-1600s and is also just lazy game design vs modelling it endogenously like meiou does (which invariably still benefits europe, just in a more dynamic way)
well to be clear, europe should be overwhelmingly favored by whatever tech system eu5 employs, because europeans bodied the rest of the world from the 1400s onward
>>17384571750s onwards.
>>1738462not sure how this "europeans only had an advantage because of the industrial revolution!" shit started but it's anti-european revisionism.
>>1738466Not the claim. I'm saying Europe only decisively broke ahead of the rest of the world around that time. You severely underestimate China and the Middle East if you fail to realize this.
>>1738470"decisively" is doing some heavy lifting here. all i'm saying is that europe was ahead centuries before that. i can grant that it took some time before their advantage was so overwhelming that they were backhanding brown people in their sleep while they conquered everything. but 16th century missionaries to china were sharing more scientific knowledge with backwards chinks than the other way around.
>>1738475>all i'm saying is that europe was ahead centuries before that. I'm saying they weren't. I imagine you're looking at one particular area, likely ship design or artillery, and placing extreme importance on that. Across the whole of it, China and the Ottoman Empire remained decidedly superior until England gained an actual tax base in India. >i can grant that it took some time before their advantage was so overwhelming that they were backhanding brown people in their sleep while they conquered everything. but 16th century missionaries to china were sharing more scientific knowledge with backwards chinks than the other way around.Not quite as meaningful when Europe has been using Chinese inventions throughout the time period. Those being integrated before Europe could offer anything in return doesn't say what you think.
>>1738488>I imagine you're looking at one particular area, likely ship design or artilleryi'm placing importance on important technology, sure.>Across the whole of it, China and the Ottoman Empire remained decidedly superior lmao>Not quite as meaningful when Europe has been using Chinese inventionsstrong evidence you're just some anti-white redditor who's also bad at thinking. who said europeans didn't use chinese inventions? does the fact europe was late to adopt arabic numerals mean that arabia wasn't a backwards shithole compared to europe by the 1500s and 1600s? what the fuck are you talking about?
>>1738509i forgot to mention that the "chinese inventions" europeans were using were heavily modified and vastly superior to anything the chinese actually invented btw, but nonetheless the chinese made meaningful contributions. not comparable to the west in the aggregate.
>>1738509>i'm placing importance on important technology, sure.Methinks you're not. You're going with the flashy "pop history" markers.>strong evidence you're just some anti-white redditor who's also bad at thinking. who said europeans didn't use chinese inventions? does the fact europe was late to adopt arabic numerals mean that arabia wasn't a backwards shithole compared to europe by the 1500s and 1600s? what the fuck are you talking about?You're the one who decided to use technological transfer as a marker of supremacy.>>1738513>The significant discoveries pastaRight. Let's just end this here. Don't get your ego wrapped up in jollies.
>>1738523>You're going with the flashy "pop history" markers.aka the most important shit.>You're the one who decided to use technological transfer as a marker of supremacy.???? no i used one civilization transferring more science and tech knowledge to the other at a give point in history as evidence that one person had a tech advantage over the other. europeans were and are supreme, but that wasn't the point of my post, nor was it that china has never invented anything.>Right. Let's just end this hereleftists hate numbers or any attempt to more concretely measure differences between groups of people instead of just tossing word salad.
>>1738529not that anon but you suck at arguing lmao
>>1738608looking back over it i think did fine. some points i was just too lazy to argue but i pointed out really really stupid thought patterns of his.
>>1738488>China and the Ottoman Empire remained decidedly superior until England gained an actual tax base in India.Ah, so that's what this is about.Let me guess, slaves built America too?
>>1738722Stop trying to recover. What tags are you interested in playing?
ottoman empire famously spent 1500s and 1600s being crushed by superior european armies
>>1738735It spent most of the period getting dogpiled and having to fight on all sides.
>>1738488>I imagine you're looking at one particular area, likely ship design or artilleryThat's what you are doing you donkey. You will bring up some random Indian rocket or Bangledeshi shipbuilder, and pretend that like these niche examples offset the wide trend that Europeans had already pulled ahead. But I know you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
>>1738784They had pulled ahead by the 1750s. Before then, when they had limited tax bases, when their economies existed to shovel silver into China, when their politics were firmly bound in aristocratic nonsense, when their faiths couldn't coexist, when they constantly warred over petty concerns, and when they hadn't yet managed to find a niche for themselves in the world as a whole, were they "ahead" in any meaningful sense?
>>1738798Yes.
>>1738803K.
>>1738765>Spread in every direction>Durr why am I getting surrounded??Also known as the roman "just protecting our borders" empire
>>1738798>were they "ahead" in any meaningful sense?yea if you consult the chart europe had a much larger % of significant figures even in the 1600s.
>>1738735people brag about ottoman military prowess but they just had a numerical advantage in most of their major battles.
>1738953>yea if you consult the chartHoly shit, dude. Grow up. There's no way you could actually see that and believe it.
>>1740443>there's no way you could see something saying that Europe was ahead and believe itWhich is why Iceland was colonized by the Chinese, right?
>>1737285A 10% urban location would probably be heavily dominated by by burghers
>>1740443dude when scientific data backs up something you've observed with your own eyes then you're more likely to believe it. what great innovations/inventions have come from china or the middle east since the 1500s/1600s? they probably exist but i bet you'd have to google them. every advancement i can think of was made by europeans. so when i see a chart showing that europeans dominate eminent figures since that time...yea, i don't doubt it. that doesn't inherently make the chart true - you can still be reasonably skeptical. but it passes the sniff test.i should also point out that people like you never post data...DATA...showing the opposite. your side makes no genuine effort at quantifying historical scientific advancements by civilization and i think it's because you realize the results wouldn't reflect favorably on non-europeans.
>>1740841>scientific dataThere is no science behind a completely arbitrarily defined list of "significant accomplishments", there's a reason Murray's work is universally considered horseshit.>inb4 it's da jooz!!
>>1740903>there's a reason Murray's work is universally considered horseshit.i've seen the complaints but they're pretty stupid. what i said about your side not presenting better data is still true. if murray's method of finding "significant figures" is bad then present a better one! but you can't, so you'll just whine and obfuscate. >inb4 it's da jooz!!no i just think people in general are pretty committed to egalitarianism and systemic racism ideology.
>>1740907>i've seen the complaints but they're pretty stupid. what i said about your side not presenting better data is still true. if murray's method of finding "significant figures" is bad then present a better one! but you can't, so you'll just whine and obfuscate.Whether or not anyone else has made a not-horseshit method for quantifying "significant accomplishments" is irrelevant, the fact remains that Murray's work is horseshit and you're a midwit for taking it seriously.
>>1740919it's not a bad method. it's a pretty smart and accurate method. >Whether or not anyone else has made a not-horseshit method for quantifying "significant accomplishments" is irrelevantit's pretty important actually because it reveals your motivation and it's sort of a hint as to the reality behind historical european innovation. because it's not like this is some impossible problem to tackle - people have a pretty good idea of what inventions/discoveries have been the most important throughout history. academia could quantify it if they wanted to but they don't. why not? because the results would vindicate murray. so all you guys can do is obfuscate.
>>1740961I see now that you have no clue what Murray's methodology actually was and you're just sputtering in defense of a shit chart you thoughtlessly pulled off of a /pol/ thread.
>>1740969no i'm aware. i'm waiting for you and someone else to critique it beyond "it could be biased..."prove it! prove it's bad. run your own analysis. use your own methods. but you guys haven't and you won't because you know you'll just vindicate murray.
>>1741047>no i'm aware. i'm waiting for you and someone else to critique it beyond "it could be biased..."That's not what I said.>prove it! prove it's bad.I don't need to. As I said there's a reason why Murray's work is universally considered horseshit, and it's not because he's biased by seething racism (though it is also important to note that he is). You're free to look at the academic rebuttals yourself.> run your own analysis. use your own methods. but you guys haven't and you won't because you know you'll just vindicate murray.You don't need to run your own schizophrenic "study" of "human accomplishment" to understand how the work of the crackpot who did it is horseshit. What you're doing is the equivalent of touting some methed-out crank's time travel theory as true because you haven't seen any physicist offer a better method of time travel. The study itself is worthless horseshit.
>>1741059>That's not what I saidbut that's what you mean. the entire basis of people's rebuttal to murray is that his method introduces a eurocentric bias. they don't actually PROVE that though. they just have empty, worthless speculation.that's the entire basis of you calling his method horseshit - empty speculation. again, you have to PROVE IT. prove that it's bad. suggest a superior method and compare the results. that's not something you can do because you're just trying to obfuscate. also i wish murray was half as racist as you thought he was. he's unfortunately some "all humans are created equal" christian retard.
