>>34780567
If you are taking hormone because you like it, you're no different from a druggie.
Substance abuse is what you have.

>>34780577
I see what you mean, I really do, but as someone who abuses the shit out of alcohol and used to abuse weed this doesn't feel the same at all. I'm not numbing my brain or wildly altering my mental state, I'm lucid and aware of my thoughts and surroundings. Yeah my libido changes and theres some emotional changes, but nothing feels internally disruptive. Even compared to SSRIs, I feel more present in the world than I ever did when I was on SSRIs.

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>>34780567
>authentic
if we didn't adapt to people around us, we'd all look like picrel
you'll never pass and it's only going to get worse. what's gonna happen 10 years from now when you don't even pass as a twink but look like a middle aged alien?
time to man up and face the music

>>34780598
I see your point but personally I think there's a difference between acting like a terminally online retard and being effeminate
>what's gonna happen 10 years from now when you don't even pass as a twink but look like a middle aged alien?
Is this not what would happen without hrt?

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>>34780605
your skins gonna get flabby and gross at some point.
same thing with tattoos. they look gross when you age cause it just exacerbates the flaws with your body. tattoo removal surgery is going to blow up this decade. mark my words.
when you're a flabby alien you're gonna be fucked wondering what happened in narcissus' mirror you're staring into.
i don't see people talk about 30+ year old twinks. its something young men are groomed into.

>>34780625
>your skins gonna get flabby and gross at some point
Yeah, people age, not a surprise. Women get gross and flabby too. And 30+ year old twinks don't exist because testosterone rapes them. Estrogen is better for keeping somethkng resembling an effeminate appearance.

>>34780567
>(I'm a cis man btw and always will be)
People have weird lifestyles but i hope you don't feel obligated to say this to yourself
>Ruining my dating pool sucks but changing myself just to be more appealing to women feels inauthentic
You're not ruining your dating pool, you're just getting into a new one. You'll have to look for women who are open to weird and alternative lifestyles, likely women who are bisexual or into feminine dudes.

Look you can do whatever you want with your body. Have fun. I just think you're making a permanent decision with your body that's maybe not going to seem like a good idea in 5-10 years. I'd quit while you're ahead

>>34781122
I dunno I feel like these types of women are severely mentally ill. Though maybe I have no right saying that considering I'm replacing the hormones in my body because I can't stop being a fag.
>>34781146
I see the logic but I can also apply that to not being on HRT. The John50 shit terrifies me. That could be me

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>>34781181
why'd you come here if you're going to shoot down all the advice given to you when it's almost universally the same?
do you not want a relationship outside of the one you have with your body?
it seems like you're more in love with yourself than you ever will be capable of showing anyone else.

>>34781195
To be fair I do the same thing with people who support my decision, I'm trying to find every single argument and see what sticks. You make a genuinely good point and that's why this is so hard to decide. Dysphoria is a bitch but so is being alone and sometimes you gotta play ball. I just don't know where I should be playing ball.

>>34780567
There aren't any actual positive effects, that's all placebo.

>Is this not what would happen without hrt?
HRT will cause it to happen faster. HRT has the same impact on the body as long term alcohol abuse. It will make your skin sag and lose its vitality, and it will cause you to have a beer belly and moobs just like a middle aged man who drinks too much.

>>34780567
Fellow troon here, have cis gf. Never underestimate how many cis women are into us. Chuds will seethe, but it's the truth.

If you want more libido take progesterone.

>>34781201
"Dysphoria" is not a real thing. What you're suffering from is just basic immaturity. Facing death and the loss of youth is something that every single human being who ever lived has had to go through. Trying to turn it into your own unique struggle that requires drugs to overcome just means you've made no progress towards wisdom and maturity.

>>34781222
I'm pretty adamant on keeping the male label, I feel like I'd be too unpopular because I'm not a woman and people might think I'm repressing or whatever.
>>34781225
I know I'm gonna age, I'd rather age effeminately.

>>34781232
There's no such thing as effeminate or masculine aging. What you mean is that you want to age beautifully. Which is something that no one can ensure, at best they can help their chances by not smoking, not drinking and not taking drugs of any kind. By abusing hormones, you're just ensuring that you won't age as beautifully as you could have.

>>34781232
I'm trying to keep the male label too, but it's becoming less and less feasible. I malefail all the time, other troons I know mock me and call me the world's worst boymoder. Luckily my gf doesn't mind at all, but it's getting harder and harder to resist her more and more brazen attempts to forcefem me. I don't think I'm a woman either, even though it would be nice if I were, but apparently everybody else thinks I am. At this point it's harder to insist I'm male than just going with the flow.

>>34781246
>I malefail all the time
Fuck you for gloating in the presence of a hon, maybe twinkhon on a good day. Lol but seriously good for you, I'm glad you beat the system. Where do you find such women? Are they crazy?

>>34781246
>At this point it's harder to insist I'm male than just going with the flow.
That should be setting off so many alarm bells in your head. You got groomed, anon. Your entire lifestyle is the product of somebody else's fetishistic cult. It'd be really good if you could introspect enough to get out of it.

>>34780567
You should stop because lying to yourself is a sure way to make yourself miserable in the long run. Estrogen doesn't make men feminine, it just makes them fat. You're clinging to an idea that could be proven false if you would just look around at other people doing the same thing, but with an objective perspective instead of one clouded by brainwashing.

>>34781250
She's not crazy at all, has a great job too. I met her at university when I studied artsy bullshit and she did it too to take a break from her difficult as fuck major. She was my best friend for several years until she just snapped one day and asked what the fuck's wrong with me, why I have 0 interest in women or men. I told her I'm a troon and nobody would ever want me. She got quite mad and told me she'd been into me for years and me being a troon doesn't change a thing. So I gave this dating thing a chance, we've been together for 4 years by now and got engaged. Recently she said she likes me even more as a woman and touches me all the time. She's very convincing, definitely not faking the attraction. I just won the lottery, she is so cool.

>>34781275
>You're clinging to an idea that could be proven false if you would just look around at other people doing the same thing
Bad advice because the trans women I've encountered have been beautiful and made me very jealous I couldn't be like them and be as happy as them as comfortable as themselves as they are. I would've never entertained this to begin with if I haven't had a lot of plesant interactions with trans people.
>>34781279
Aw thats really sweet anon (nona?) congrats :). Still I am fucking mad you pass and I don't, best I can become is a boobtwink and I don't think women want that. It's like uncanny valley to them.

>>34781253
Oh fuck off, I've been dysphoric since age 3 or 4, told my mum I hated my genitals at that age already. I didn't even know what being trans was back then. I've just always been like that, fundamentally.
>>34781275
>Estrogen doesn't make men feminine, it just makes them fat.
Lmaooo sure and men hit on me because I look so manly, right?
>>34781285
Thank you!
I'm still unhappy about my appearance, I want FFS to feel better about myself.

>>34781285
>the trans women I've encountered have been beautiful
But not because of the drugs they took. They were beautiful as men and would have stayed beautiful as men. I said to be objective, not to let your judgement be clouded and short sighted. Look at the ugly men and see how estrogen impacted them. Did it make them look better, or worse? It assuredly made them look even worse. An effect always follows a cause, meaning it also makes beautiful men less beautiful. Any crossdresser you admire would have been more attractive if he had just stayed natural, because hair and makeup do 90% of the work anyway. The idea that HRT does anything other than cause a flabby gut and gyno is an absolute lie, and your life would be a lot better if you could open your eyes enough to see it for what it is.

>>34781295
Now that you mention it, would you change your tune about me trooning if I told you I didn't have as strong as a reaction as you as a kid? Like, I hated how I looked in the mirror until I started doing more fem stuff and I just generally like being effeminate and I feel confident whenever presenting as such, but I never hated my genitals or identity. I just hate what testosterone does. And again I'm not full on trooning, just getting on HRT as a guy.

>>34781295
Everyone has to get used to their body and accept it. I had a hard time with it growing up and with puberty, too. That's not a sign of "dysphoria". That isn't a real thing, you just got groomed into thinking that a typical reaction growing up was a sign of necessary medical intervention. It's not.

>>34781295
>delusional gloating followed by immediate sadness about not passing within the same post
trannies and people who listen to trannies are beyond redemption

>>34781279
>boo hoo, men will never want me and i'm so undesirable
>>34781295
>achktually i pass super well and men are always hitting on me
>but i still feel like garbage and hate myself

OP, I hope you realize that the person you're talking to is a legit groomer who's making up stories to try to prevent you from fixing your own life. People like this dude feel threatened when somebody starts thinking about giving up the tranny lifestyle, so they'll say anything to give you false hope in finding an imaginary girlfriend who actually loves trannies that don't pass.

>>34781308
Not really. The thing about dysphoria is that it doesn't go away once it's there. It's pretty obvious you have it, repping usually ends with the rope or John, 50.

>>34781317
>>34781335
I find it a little wasier to accept their premise of passing despite being unhappy with their looks because a shit ton of trans women have severe BDD and are perfectionists about their looks. This fucking sucks because I have no idea who to trust on here and I can't ask my friends if they think I should be a half tranny or not, it's obviously weird to do that. I guess new advice, how do you determine something like this with absolute certainty for yourself? I dont know if I can rely on strangers anymore.
>>34781342
But do I seem dysphoric to you?

>>34781343
You pretty much just need to start being honest with yourself, so that you don't have to rely on other people's judgment. You know that taking estrogen hasn't done much for you, and that it won't moving forward. You know you're going to have to accept getting old and dying no matter what. You know that it's stupid for a person to pretend that they're something they actually aren't. You know that a person can't be happy for as long as he deludes himself about the reality of his situation. So where is the impetus to keep taking hormones and living adjacently to a harmful lifestyle? What are the actual reasons to stay on hormones? If it's "but i want to keep pretending i'm attractive for a few more years even though i already feel unattractive", then you know that's a made up reason because it contradicts itself. That's like saying "i want to keep doing something i already know isn't working because i can't give up the hope that it might work someday". It keeps you locked in to a dead end path when there are things you could do to actually ensure happiness.

>>34781343
I mean yeah. It's obvious the thought of dropping E sounds stressful to you. I've seen it time and time again, questioning if HRT is the right thing, halfhearted attempts to rep, but it always ends with staying on HRT or dropping HRT, getting back on it and mourning the time lost.

>>34781375
There's your proof that this dude is a groomer if you had any doubts left, OP.

>>34780567
Life is short and youth is even shorter. You can take measures to maintain and improve your appearance, but you're just delaying the inevitable. One day you'll probably look back and realize you spent more time worrying about missing out and prolonging your life than actually enjoying it. You should only take measures that have insignificant costs and risks for significant benefits. That's it. You can go down this rabbit hole of looksmaxxing, but I'm telling you it's a hole of diminishing returns the further down you go. When you focus on what you lack you can't appreciate what you have. That's my point.

>>34781358
>You know that taking estrogen hasn't done much for you,
...I just started, its a slow process
>, and that it won't moving forward
Might be true, might not
>You know you're going to have to accept getting old and dying no matter what
I have though, in this very thread
>You know that it's stupid for a person to pretend that they're something they actually aren't
Im not, Im upfront about being a man on hrt
>If it's "but i want to keep pretending i'm attractive for a few more years even though i already feel unattractive", then you know that's a made up reason because it contradicts itself. That's like saying "i want to keep doing something i already know isn't working because i can't give up the hope that it might work someday"
I dont feel super unattractive right now. Mid? Sure. But mid is a lot better than just hating what I see in the mirror and hating seeing what testosterone is doing to my body.
>It keeps you locked in to a dead end path when there are things you could do to actually ensure happiness
Okay, like what?
>>34781381
Not a groomer but may or may not be projecting onto me when it might not be fully appropriate
>>34782000
>Life is short
So, why not go down this path?
>One day you'll probably look back and realize you spent more time worrying about missing out and prolonging your life than actually enjoying it
Are you joking we're not talking about "prolonging life" we're talking about being more comfortable in my body so I CAN enjoy life more.
>You should only take measures that have insignificant costs and risks for significant benefits
This line sctually got me, good job. I'm a pretty risk averse person, and even if I enjoy the effects of HRT you're right, it's still a risk with costs involved. The benefits are pretty significant for someone like me but you're ultimately right.

>>34782000
>You can go down this rabbit hole of looksmaxxing, but I'm telling you it's a hole of diminishing returns the further down you go.
I cant deny, this does feel a little bit like looksmaxxing sometimes. But, idk, by the same token it also feels like genuine dysphoria. Not about aging, but about not having what the opposite sex has.
>When you focus on what you lack you can't appreciate what you have. That's my point.
Sure dude, I love having an unremarkable male body that just gets balder and hairier by the day that looks strange with masculine features. The features I do have compliment androgyny well.

desu HRT has a better track record with helping people than antidepressants, everyone I know who has attempted to detransition turns into a mental wreck while most of the trannies turn out OK after a while

just my 2 cents

>>34783022
the fact that it calms you down is a red flag that you are the crowd it was designed for desu.


and speaking from experience, a lot of young women these days do like an estrogenized fag

>>34783042
Am I? I'm still neurotic about not passing and being lonely
>and speaking from experience, a lot of young women these days do like an estrogenized fag
Idk I feel like at some point 99% of women want a man, or if they're lesbian, a woman, not a weird in between thing like me.

>>34783054
Yeah i won't lie, being a tranny is kind of a shit existence but desu ignoring it is an impossible task. I understand why all the people on here would think being a tranny is something to be avoid but to be honest if you are anything like me you will live a weird nightmare either way. I just thought the tranny nightmare was more tolerable.

>>34783070
my only advice is to use it as an opportunity to straighten the fuck out because your margin of error in life has just dropped dramatically and don't fall for the "I'm a real woman!" crap

>>34782490
>I love having an unremarkable male body that just gets balder and hairier by the day
That doesn't happen. You fell for gaslighting.

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>>34781181
>I dunno I feel like these types of women are severely mentally ill. Though maybe I have no right saying that considering I'm replacing the hormones in my body because I can't stop being a fag.
NTA but yeah, I think you need to reckon with the fact that you don't fit into mainstream society and never will. You'll never get the perfect woman because you'll never be the perfect man. This isn't something you can simply overcome. The perfect man doesn't struggle with this sort of thing to begin with, you're already out of the running. And that's okay, that describes a lot of people.
It might be time to start embracing that these less aspirational parts of you aren't that bad. They're not holding you back from some imagined perfect life, because that life was never going to be yours. This is just you, whatever form that takes. If you can accept that, maybe recognising these parts in other people can become a reason to embrace them as your own kind, rather than a reason to write them off.
You're essentially doing the "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member" thing, but that's a lonely life. Do you wanna spend your life lonely and pretending to be normal amongst people who'd reject you if you broke character? Or do you wanna chill out, accept who you are, and embrace others who are like you?

>>34780567
“Passing” is a myth brought on by the internet. Anybody who “passes” only does so in pictures with highly specific angles and lighting. In real life, shoulders/hand size/skull say everything which is why little children need it explained to them specifically why trans people are “totally normal”. It’s not intuitive because they immediately see something visually strange.
The argument for the existence of passing is “well they just pass so well that nobody ever knows”. How convenient. They exist but nobody can ever find them lmao. Super convincing.
You can let a surgeon Picasso you with a knife but at the end of the day even that will just make you look like a weird shaped blow up doll rather than a woman. My best friend trooned out, and while we still do hangout, I have to listen to the “I totally pass” and “men desire me soooo much but I don’t even want them because all men are chasers” speeches every time we go anywhere. It doesn’t even make me want to laugh. I am just sad for my friend.

>>34784455
>I think you need to reckon with the fact that you don't fit into mainstream society and never will. You'll never get the perfect woman because you'll never be the perfect man.
I already came to terms with that
>You're essentially doing the "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member" thing
That's true. I do it because I'm a little chuddy which concerns me because anyone who might accept me would hate that. I don't wanna end up like iDubbbz but I also don't wanna end up like John50 so I have no idea where to go in life.

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>>34784474
PUT THE HORMONES DOWN ANON

>>34782490
>hating seeing what testosterone is doing to my body
HRT affects more than your appearance. It's one thing to feel envious of women's bodies, but to envy their mind and temperament...
>we're talking about being more comfortable in my body so I CAN enjoy life more.
If you had come to terms with your current appearance and the fact that it's only downhill from here you would already be comfortable in your own body. The reason you don't feel comfortable in your own body is because you internalized external standards. You let others define you. You are entirely dependent on others to feel comfortable in your own skin. That is your problem.
>I cant deny, this does feel a little bit like looksmaxxing sometimes.
Because it is. What you have is not gender dysphoria, but body dysmorphia.
>Sure dude, I love having an unremarkable male body
You have nothing without your body? No soul, no interests, no personality, no passion. No, I think you do. You just don't see it yet. You'll end up in a darker situation and realize how bright the past was. Maybe that is the only way for you to understand...
>that just gets balder and hairier by the day that looks strange with masculine features
If you're dead set on looking like a femboy/queer/transsexual/whatever you can take finasteride, get hair transplants, remove your body hair with laser, get surgeries to appear more feminine. Do you know how much this costs? How many years of your life are you going to enjoy your altered appearance? How long will it take before your superficial partner ditches you for someone more feminine that started taking measures earlier or just had a better starting point? New ones enter the market every year and it's only going to become more competitive. Maybe you have what it takes. I don't know.

>It's one thing to feel envious of women's bodies, but to envy their mind and temperament...
I've met normal trans women and I haven't gone crazy like this yet
>The reason you don't feel comfortable in your own body is because you internalized external standards. You let others define you. You are entirely dependent on others to feel comfortable in your own skin. That is your problem.
It is but only because most others hate faggy effeminate men so I rep to please them. I want this for myself.
>You have nothing without your body? No soul, no interests, no personality, no passion.
I do have these things, why am I not allowed to do things and have a personality while still not liking the masculine traits of my body? They aren't mutually exclusive.
>If you're dead set on looking like a femboy/queer/transsexual/whatever you can do all this convoluted expensive bullshit I made up
Okay dude
>How long will it take before your superficial partner ditches you for someone more feminine that started taking measures earlier or just had a better starting point? New ones enter the market every year and it's only going to become more competitive.
New fear unlocked but if I end up getting with someone who will abandon me for someone younger and hotter I don't want someone like that in my life, they can go ruin their life for all I care.

>>34785690
Meant for >>34784946
Also the more I think about the dating aspect, the more I realize I'm keeping myself as someone I don't like simply to have the priveledge of participating in the modern dating market with rampant hoeflation. Why the fuck shouldn't I get on HRT instead of trying to keep myself miserable for some snatch that will cost me financially and mentally?