I hate the fact that orcas are the apex marine predators of today. Such a boring and lame creature, they are oversized dolphins with panda patches and hunts in pods like pussies. Why? I thought everything in nature was perfect but killer whales as the top ocean predator does not feels right. Not so long ago there were giant mega-toothed sharks and macroraptorial sperm whales with ugly, monstruous heads in our oceans. We were supposed to still have this, but we're stuck with panda dolphins that perform circus tricks instead (literal CLOWNS).
>>5122217Orcas are living proof that nature isn't a PvP game like a lot of people like to pretend
>>5122217Nanaimoteuthis
>>5122234inb4 it’s downsized
>>5122234Where my anime, Japan?
>>5122217>Big dolphin: >:(>Big shark: :O>Sperm whale with upper teeth: :O>>5118655
me on the leftmy wife on topour daughter on the bottom (she's special, don't bully)
>>5122234since only the beak fossilizes, im pretty sure this thing was actually 5 times smaller IRL
>>5122234no way was this thing hunting large vertebrates
>>5122469I refuse accept the new size of armored fish hunter
>>5122721according to the interpretation of the heavy wear on the beaks and the long scratches, they did
>>5122838most likely wrong
>>5123403I'm sure you have evidence for that claim?
>>5123410just wait for the inevitable paper
>>5123451So that's a no.
>>5122838I can’t read the paper because it’s paywalled. Somebody explain how we know the wear marks are from chewing on reptile bones and not ammonite shells
>>5123510Reposted from an anon in another thread.>Frequent durophagous predation on hard-shelled prey causes wear of their jaw tips and jaw edges, which is absent in nondurophagous cephalopods such as squids>This wear provides reliable evidence of durophagy, in a broader sense carnivory, in fossil cephalopods. The wear was found on adult jaws of Late Cretaceous Cirrata, but not on their juvenile jaws. It is also absent in co-occurring fossil squid jaws, including both juveniles and adults>In the largest specimens of N. jeletzkyi and N. haggarti, the loss of jaw material caused by the accumulated wear reaches ~10% of the total jaw length, which is more severe than in modern durophagous cephalopods>These wear patterns suggest that Late Cretaceous giant Cirrata were active carnivores that frequently crushed hard shells and bones. The long scratches distributed on wide areas of their jaw reflect the dynamic use of the entire jaw for dismantling prey. Asymmetric loss of the jaw edges suggests lateralized behavior, which has been linked to a highly developed brain and cognition>This, in turn, suggests that the earliest octopuses already possessed advanced intelligence. Laterality is known in modern octopuses, whose high intelligence matches that of vertebrates>so essentially the heavy wear on cephalopod beaks imply eating shellfish rather than fish. But in this case, there's extreme wear, up to 10% of the beak which is significantly more wear than modern shellfish eating cephalopods have. The fact that there are long scratches on the wide areas of the beak indicate the use of the beak to rip apart large animals, rather than just crushing shells. And the fact that bones are much thicker and tougher than shellfish shells explains why the beaks are proportionally worn down much more than modern shellfish eating cephalopods.TLDR: We actually do have good evidence supporting its lifestyle. But the paleo community is full of lamefags who think boring = realistic.
>>5122217Because mammal master race, duh
>>5122217i love how mammals dominate this planet, in all ecosystems. even the king of fishes is not even a fish.
>>5123542what if they were just eating extinct species of very large shellfish?
>>5123654The shells of those shellfish would be found as fossils.
>>5123654Then the wear patterns of their beak would match those of modern shellfish eating cephalopods.
>>5123542can't wait for this paper to be DEBOONKED
>>5123662
>>5122217isn't the 17 meter Livyatan estimate dependent on the animal sharing the body plan of a much more elongated and lighter of Zygophyseter, whereas a sperm whale build as depicted here would land the same animal at 13.5 meters.
>>5122217I love how these two animals actually lived at the same time and actively beefed with each other. None of this pussy "niche-partitioning" crap.
>>5123510>Somebody explain how we know the wear marks are from chewing on reptile bones and not ammonite shellsWhy is it assumed to have been from ammonite shells until and unless definitively proven otherwise?
>>5123985More conservative "tame" ideas are automatically considered the default until proven otherwise. It's like how when sauropods were first discovered, it was assumed they were semiaquatic because no land animals today reached such sizes and we believed an African Elephant was the biological limit. Or how Jack Horner claimed T. rex was a scavenger because the idea of a superpredator many times larger than a polar bear was too extraordinary to believe. Or when Quetzalcoatlus was discovered and it was thought to be flightless because surely Argentavis already represented the physical limit of how big an animal could get while retaining flight. Even though these are all old antiquated lines of thought we ridicule today, people ironically go on to do the same thing with newer discoveries. It's not even a scientific type of thinking. It's literally just people making up their own headcanon based on vibes and passing it off as fact.
>>5124065except jack horner claimed t. rex was a scavenger based on nothing more than contrarianism
>>5124138Except he did make arguments for it which have a striking parallel with the current octopus shit.>There is no way T. rex was an active predator. It can’t run fast and its arms are too small to hold prey, there is no modern animal like that. Its powerful bite was probably for eating carrion it didn’t have to chase after. I know this sounds more lame than your awesomebro fantasy, but real life isn’t always exciting, sorry.>There is no way Nanaimoteuthis was an active predator. No macropredatory cephalopod exists today, even giant squid only hunt small fish. It’s powerful beak was probably for crushing the shells of ammonites that can’t fight back. I know this sounds more lame than your awesomebro fantasy, but real life isn’t always exciting, sorry.
>>5122217Only 20m?
>>5123985I didn’t say it had to be ammonites until proven otherwise
>>5122469I'm doubtful of the large estimates, but like...The beak is just that huge. C in picrel is the beak of a giant squid.Even if going by a more conservative estimate, a 8-10 M octopus is insane and would be the biggest cephalopod today.
>>5122217I have the same thoughts about the cenozoic era on Earth in general. We used to have pterosaurs and fucking dinosaurs, warm blooded reptiles, owning the earth. Everything after the mesozoic has been massive decline besides humans. Mammals are gay and estrogen-coded. Furry faggotry isn't manly or evoking of testosterone like reptiles and scales.>mesozoic the apex predators were armored dinosaurs>cenozoic the apex predators are shit like fluffy bears and big kitties and smooth panda dolphinsCenozoic is gay as fuck outside of human brains and technology.
>>5125085I don't like these things. They are scary
>>5125200they're too chubby to be scarypliosaurs are scary
>>5125210Don't let appearances fool you. They 100% had that feral lizardlike brain and were not just bigeye dolphins that ate fish and squid.>Guizhouichthyosaurus is a medium sized ichthyosaur, related to much larger species in picrel >>5125085>One Guizhouichthyosaur was found with a large prey trunk belonging to a 4 m long Xinpusaurus, another marine reptile.>It dispatched it as prey and ripped its head and tail off and tried to swallow its torso whole, dying in the process.Their evolution is also insane, the timespan between them first becoming pelagic and then evolving into 40+ ton Cymbospondylus youngorum was ~5 million years.
>>5125142You did imply it, since you asked for evidence only concerning the reptile bones. Implying ammonites should be considered the default explanation barring specific evidence.
>>5125284lots of lizards are chill though
>>5125324>you asked for evidence only concerning the reptile bonesBecause somebody said that there was evidence for feeding on reptiles specifically retard. I asked what that evidence was because the paper was paywalled. Then the relevant part of the paper was quoted. Learn to read a thread
>>5125184Mesozoic (And Paleozoic past the big bugs time period) becomes lame as fuck when you realize every single predator was different flavors of the same thing. All theropods are just sharks on legs that hunt prey with lacerating bites and occasionally mob together for big prey. Every theropod is the same fucking thing. Fast with long arms for grasping when small, shrink arms and get big head when they grow bigger. Cenozoic on the other hand has a way higher variety of predators thanks to mammals developing the advanced intellect for different strategies.>Conical toothed cats strangling their prey.>Sabertooths wrestling down their prey for to disembowel them with their sabers.>Smaller cats and Thylacoleo dropping from trees to ambush prey.>Canids hunting in advanced packs with social bonds that extend beyond primitive mobbing.>Raptorial whales like Ankylorhiza hunting by ramming into their prey with front facing tusks.>Creodonts like Megistotherium that went all in on their bite to specialize in megafauna hunting.>Bears being omnivores that can opportunistically hunt when needed.>Semiaquatic mammals like Enhydriodon or Ambulocetus that were probably doing jaguar and/or croc things.>Non-mammal predators like terror birds, land crocs, or Megalania.>Hominids. No further explanation needed.The history of megafaunal predation is like the history of human technology. The vast majority of it stagnated in the same stale shit. Then a sudden breakthrough in recent history (Industrial Revolution/Mammal takeover) made the meta accelerate at a blinding rate.
>>5126232>All theropods are just sharks on legs that hunt prey with lacerating bites and occasionally mob together for big preyYeah and that's metal as fuck you big gay mammalfaggot.
>>5126232Megalodon would've treated orcas as a light snack
>>5126232No amount of cope will ever change the fact that no mammalian land predator has conclusively surpassed the 1 ton mark much less done so tenfold
>>5122217Recent evidence suggest melvillei was a blubbery bottom feeder and megalodon had feathers and was gay.
>>5126946The ocean allows vertebrates to get much bigger than their maximum size on land
>>5124065Retard. People didn't think sauropods lived in swamps or Quetzacoatlus couldn't fly just because, that was what our actual science at the time showed with the knowledge we had then. Now that we know more about those animals with things like the pneumatized bones of sauropods or the pterosaur catapult mechanism, we know better, The point being we need actual evidence to make these claims and not "hurr it would be cool if this giant squid was hunting mosasaurs therefore it must be true".
>>5126232>Cenozoic on the other hand has a way higher variety of predators thanks to mammals developing the advanced intellect for different strategies.This has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with the fact that the continents were much closer together during the Mesozoic and therefore there was less opportunity for isolation to create more divergent forms.
>>5127076>everything to do with the fact that the continents were much closer together during the MesozoicAlso generally just much less diverse habitats due to no grasslands, way less diverse forests, and warmer poles.
>>5127075>pterosaur catapult mechanismsource?
>>5127075Retard take, we know the octopus was crushing bones based on wear patterns. And we know a massive animal is going to eat whatever it can, especially in a habitat like the open ocean. We literally do have the evidence you’re talking about, yet you’d rather be a dumbass and pretend it doesn’t exist because “macropredatory cephalopod” is something you already decided can’t exist. Exactly like Jack Horner calling Rex a scavenger when we have predation evidence on edmontosaurs.
>>5127600NTA but I feel like bone crunching can just as easily be made into shell crunching. Ammonites were everywhere at this point in time so it ain't that big of a stretch.
>>5127721Read >>5123542 , the paper itself compares its wear patterns to those of modern cephalopods. It is not a case of "We only know it was eating hard things and are assuming it was bones to make it sound cooler". It is "We specifically compared these wear patterns to modern day analogs and found striking differences that rule out the possibility it was a pure shellfish specialist".
>>5125284>in the belly of the beasthaha I wonder if it pats its belly after it eats you, like "mmmmm that was sooooo satisying" while you struggle inside getting digested and he gets all gassy
>>5126946>Arctotherium would like to know your location
>>5126232>says every mesozoic predator was just flavours of the same thing>creates a list of cenozoic predators that is almost entirely just different flavours of dogs and catsdisgusting
>>5127076Even in different environments theropods still did the same shit. What's the difference between Yutyrannus and Allosaurus when it comes to actual killing methods? Even though they are from wildly different habitats, enough for one to develop feathers, they are still identical on a functional level. Compare that to Smilodon and Homotherium, who are both cats yet differ night and day in how they were hunting due to their different teeth.The only redeeming quality of Mesozoic theropods is that they appeal to the powerscaling faggots brainrot as seen with >>5126946 . Once you get bored of the retards fighting over what fragmentary glupshitto might have been 1 ton bigger than T. rex, most of what makes theropods interesting evaporates.
>>5127881>Even in different environments theropods still did the same shit. What's the difference between Yutyrannus and Allosaurus when it comes to actual killing methods?Now do it again without intentionally cherry picking two similar theropods and comparing them to the two most different sabertooths you could think of
>>5128068Funny you call that cherry picked when they are from completely different climates, but whatever, I'll bite. Carnotaurus and Allosaurus. They look different, are from completely different theropod lineages, but share the exact same design of a narrow skull with curved serrated teeth. This is how the majority of macropredatory theropods function, with only a handful of exceptions.>Megaraptors, which are just an upscaled version of the "Small head, long arms" body plan>Majungasaurus, which had unique teeth for holding onto its prey instead of lacerating bites.>Tyrannosaurs, which had bone crushing bites.Note that this scarcity isn't without reason either. The reason the steak knife bite is so common is because sauropods were the dominant herbivores for the majority of the Mesozoic. All the examples I mentioned above were Late Cretaceous animals. To give them credit dinosaurs probably would have gotten more interesting with time, but a big space rock cucked them.
>>5127881ThisBeing the largest predator in the pond is much better than being one apex predator among many in mesozoic-era pangea
>>5128152>Carnotaurus and AllosaurusLiterally could not be more different, far more so than Homotherium and Smilodon>share the exact same design of a narrow skull with curved serrated teethTheir skulls are completely different. Carnotaurus had a short, deep skull with much smaller teeth and very high cranial kinesis. It was adapted for relatively quick, weak bites and swallowing large chunks of food. Allosaurus was the complete opposite, and that’s not even comparing its giant meathook claws to Carnotaurus’ useless mittens. You may as well say that Homotherium and Xenosmilus “share the exact same skull design”
>>5126232>>5127881>>5128152Holy fuck what a retarded thing to get upset about. All of you man children having console wars over your favourite dead animals are insufferable
>>5128301sir, you're on 4chan dot org
>>5124215Anon, Horner is a massive T.rex hater.
>>5128869why would we hate T. Rex?
>>5127787Firstly, I'm just saying that if you can easily crush bone, it'd be light work doing the same with shells as well. I didn't say that it would exclusively be durophagous.Secondly, let's assume the 18m estimate is 100% confirmed. A big enough mosasaur would still fold its shit in like how sperm whales do it on their daily grind.
>>5128869He needed to promote JP3 somehow
>>5128152>dinosaurs probably would have gotten more interesting with time, but a big space rock cucked them.Theropods diverged into quasi-marine and omni/herbivorous niches even before the space rock.Post space rock, we see them diverging into herbivorous land- and semiaquatic forms, scavenger specialists, night- and daytime hunters, piscivores, insectivores and what have you. Hell, there's species specialised on shrimps in alkaline lakes where no other life dwells.
>>5129092>Firstly, I'm just saying that if you can easily crush bone, it'd be light work doing the same with shells as well. I didn't say that it would exclusively be durophagous.That's fine and the most likely possibility anyways, a giant carnivore isn't going to pass up a good meal if it has the tools to obtain it. The idiots are the people trying to claim it was exclusively eating shellfish as some sort of anti-awesomebro gotcha, because they couldn't even be assed to read the paper on the animal they're discussing.>Secondly, let's assume the 18m estimate is 100% confirmed. A big enough mosasaur would still fold its shit in like how sperm whales do it on their daily grind.A mosasaurus only got as big as a sperm whale at the very most, and sperm whales only hunt giant squid because they have a massive weight advantage over them. The analog falls apart because these are equally sized super predators that would be taking a massive risk fighting each other. At the very most they'd hunt smaller individuals of the other species.
>>5127881>Even in different environments theropods still did the same shit.You have Gallimimus, Therizinosaurus, Velociraptor, Tarbosaurus, Mononykus, and Deinocheirus all in the same habitat.Look at me in the face and tell me that theropods are all the same.
>>5127881Spinosaurus was different.
>>5129344>>5129284>>5129129Enough with the pedantics you bunch of autistic nerds. Original post was discussing the variety of mesozoic macropredators vs cenozoic macropredators. Mesozoic loses every time when it's variety boils down to two body plans for large and small theropods. And I'm giving raptorial theropods to the Cenozoic because Avisaurus barely counts compared to shit like the Haast's Eagle.
>>5129357You don't get to complain about "pedantics" after a post gets nitty gritty of listing out all possible cenozoic predators vs a strawman of theropods to try and justify why you said "all theropods are the same, unlike mammal predators" and then get pissy because others point out how wrong that is. So much so that your only retort is "Ugh, I wasn't THAT serious!">Original post was discussing the variety of mesozoic macropredators vs cenozoic macropredators.Awfully convenient that the original post has zero mention of any marine reptile or any other non-dinosaur archosaur.
>>5122217Orcas are a Placental Mammal species that has specced into Intelligence, Group co-ordination and controlled aggressiveness.They're effectively the Humans of the Sea.
