>>5140380
I assume those interactions wouldn't be very different from the ones those animals already have with cougars

>>5140498
I don't know, cougars are pretty small, meanwhile jaguars are the third largest big cat in the world. They are also significantly more aggressive.

>>5140498
you assume wrong
jaguars duke it out and win against 5 meter long black caimans very often in the amazon, they duke it out and win against 6m long american crocodiles and those aren't even the largest subspecies of jaguars out there, the ones from the Pantanal region of Brazil are insane at the same size as an average large tiger. they also have a very unique way of killing their prey, in that they perforate the base of the skull to sever the spine. a fully grown male jaguar could successfully ambush and kill a grizzly bear if the ambush was successful, wolves wouldn't be able to do anything to a large healthy jag

>>5140681
They don't duke it out with caimans and crocodiles of that size

>>5140681
>a fully grown male jaguar could successfully ambush and kill a grizzly bear
lmfao, an adult grizzly easily beats a jaguar

>>5140681
You know, there is a reason why wolves supplanted solitary large cats wherever they crossed paths.
And the only grizzly a jaguar might kill is a cub or adolescent. Grizzly bears already deal with worse shit than jaguars in their natural habitat.

>>5140740
watch this amazing find from the Jaguarland forum, their moderator OncaAtrox is very knowledgeable on Jaguars and she has many recorded cases of them preying on crocodilians:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Jaguarland/comments/1uolepn/saseka_female_killing_a_huge_male_yacare_caiman/
>But today, my perspective on her completely changed. I witnessed Saseka hunting and killing a male caiman…an animal that was clearly twice her size in weight and stature. It was the work of a true warrior: it took her nearly an hour to drag the prey into the bush. Her exhaustion was visible, but she didn’t give up for a single moment.
Saseka is a subadult female, not even close to the full size that fully grown males of the Pantanal region reach, and has already taken down a caiman about twice her size, it's no wonder the larger males, that are about the size of an average large tiger, can take out even the largest of crocodilians
>>5140748
>lmfao, an adult grizzly easily beats a jaguar
Not if the Jaguar gets a successful ambush and clamps its fangs down at the base of the bear's skull, which is something they do with a sniper's precision

>>5140835
Anon that caiman is not 5 meters long. How fucking big do you think jaguars are?

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>>5140835

>>5140840
I'm not saying that that specific caiman is 5m long, but that is a subadult female jaguar still taking down a caiman twice her size, now a fully grown male jaguar, the size of an average large tiger, can and will take down 5m long black caimans or 6m long american crocodiles. That video is just an example of how powerful these creatures are

>>5140748
Bears are overrated, in Siberia the Amur Tiger hunts brown bears despite them being heavier in weight

>>5140882
They hunt yearlings and fresh out of hibernation females.

>>5140859
There has never once been a case of a jaguar killing a full adult male black caiman. It's impossible. The size and power difference is astronomical.
A Bengal tiger would have trouble with that, and they kill mugger crocodiles.

>>5140887
Not impossible, take a look at this somewhat old post also from Jaguarland, it's a large 155kg 2.5m male Jaguar from the Pantanal region, look at the size comparisons, that thing is at the size of a Lion and a Tiger
https://www.reddit.com/r/Jaguarland/comments/18xvawh/discovering_the_weight_of_the_largest_jaguar/
Now consider the previously mentioned female that took out a caiman twice her size, this large male Jaguar could take on a 5m black caiman if it wanted and a 6m american crocodile is also in the realm of possibility since most of the size difference between a 5m black caiman and a 6m american croc is just more tail which is irrelevant considering the tail won't do much to protect the croc from the jaguar
it's rare, but large male jaguars will, given the chance, ambush and kill even the largest of crocodilians in its range
Tangentially, there's also a report from dr Sanjal in the Sunderbans region of India, of a large bengal tiger killing a fully grown saltwater crocodile. Now if a large male bengal tiger can kill the absolute largest of crocodilians, then I think it's not outlandish to assume that a large male jaguar, again I'll repeat this, similar in size to a large tiger, can and will on occasion kill even the largest of crocodilians in its range

>>5140928
you keep confidently saying shit thats never been observed when in actuality jaguars avoid deep bodies of water where they know large black caiman reside, the hierarchy in the amazon is divided three ways between the green anaconda, the black caiman and the jaguar with all three occasionally successfully feeding on the other but generally these species steer clear of adult black caimans

also you correctly pointed to the pantanal jaguars as being the largest but left out the fact that there's no black caimans in the pantanal wetlands (only the far smaller yacare caiman)

>>5140928
>dr Sanjal
who?

>>5140928
bro, black caimans can get up to 500 kg, when even a very large male Pantanal jaguar typically weighs around 100–120 kg, with only exceptional individuals somewhat heavier.
that just isnt happening

>>5140935
>who?
Dr Sanjal is an indian geologist and tiger enthusiast that studies tigers in the Sunderbans region of India, one of the very few places in the world where tigers and saltwater crocodiles overlap in range. He has published an article featuring eyewitness accounts of a large bengal tiger killing an 1800 pound (~800kg) saltwater crocodile, according to the witnesses, the tiger managed to lift and flip the crocodile upside down with a single paw, then proceeded to finish it
>>5140934
>but left out the fact that there's no black caimans in the pantanal wetlands (only the far smaller yacare caiman)
agreed, but there are other populations of particularly large, not as large as the Pantanal ones, Jaguars in areas that overlap with Black Caimans and the American Crocodiles, iirc in the Brazilian Amazon the Jaguars are smaller in size and will go after smaller Black Caimans, such as subadult males and adult females, but in the Bolivian Amazon, there are some moderately large Jaguars alongside some of the largest specimens of Black Caimans, that's where you'll expect to see large Jaguars hunting large Black Caimans. Central America also has some fairly large Jaguars, again not as large as the Pantanal's, that coexist with large American Crocodiles, some of those easily reaching 6m in length
>>5140937
Yes, I know Black Caimans can reach 500kg, but Jaguars are incredibly muscular animals, they're not lean like Leopards, in terms of musculature, they're much more akin to Tigers and Lions. A fairly large Jaguar has enough muscle strength to pin down a 500kg Black Caiman, let's not also forget that Crocodilians in general tire very fast compared to mammals, the Jaguar has more endurance to duke it out, even if the Black Caiman has the mass

>>5140842
People forgetting weight is 90% of the determining factor in animal fights will never not be funny to me

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>>5140975
>A fairly large Jaguar has enough muscle strength to pin down a 500kg Black Caiman

>>5141009
humans can hold 200-300kg with their arms, 500kg is not unheard of. what makes you think a Jaguar can't pin down a 500kg animal when even an average Jaguar is already magnitudes stronger than the strongest of humans? Jaguars are on the levels of Tigers and Lions when it comes to raw strength
>>5141008
weight is overrated as fuck, if that were the case most predators would fail to even take down their prey
there are many examples in the wild of animals taking down animals much heavier than them
>Orca x pretty much any large whale
>Polar Bear x Walrus
>Lions x Buffalos
>Hyenas x Buffalos
>Wild dogs x Buffalos
>Siberian Tiger x Brown Bear
>Jaguar x Black Caiman
>Lions x Elephants
>Lions x Rhinoceros
>Jaguar x River Dolphin
>Wolf x Bison
>Polar Bear x Belugas
the list goes on, and hell we can even go back to prehistoric times and you can find examples of therapods taking down saurapods much heavier than them

>>5141184
A crocodilian weighing 1300lbs isn't just some fat ass. It's 1300lbs of raw muscle just as overpowered as a cat's muscles are compared to a human's.
Even as the third largest cat by bodyweight, It's still within range to be a survivable fight for a peak male human, just like how men have survived fights with leopards. A man could not fight a 16ft black caiman in any setting.

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>>5140681
>jaguars duke it out and win against 5 meter long black caimans very often in the amazon
No they don’t. There are only one or two records of caiman around 3.5 metres being preyed on. How does that translate to preying on 5 metre caimans “very often”? Not a single caiman of that size has ever been recorded being preyed on
>they duke it out and win against 6m long american crocodiles
No American crocodile ever recorded has measured 6 metres in length, let alone one that was killed by a jaguar
>the ones from the Pantanal region of Brazil are insane at the same size as an average large tiger
The average bengal tiger is almost double the weight of the average pantanal jaguar
>>5140835
>Jaguarland forum
Carnivora forum tier dogshit
>>5140928
>it's a large 155kg 2.5m male Jaguar from the Pantanal region, look at the size comparisons, that thing is at the size of a Lion and a Tiger
No it isn’t. An average lion is 180-200 kg and the largest are almost 300 kg
>Now consider the previously mentioned female that took out a caiman twice her size, this large male Jaguar could take on a 5m black caiman if it wanted
A black caiman twice the size of the largest pantanal jaguars would be about 3.5 metres in length. A 5 metre caiman would be 2-3 times heavier
>it's rare, but large male jaguars will, given the chance, ambush and kill even the largest of crocodilians in its range
You say it’s rare like it’s happened before when you’ve just been speculating on a hypothetical possibility
>Tangentially, there's also a report from dr Sanjal in the Sunderbans region of India, of a large bengal tiger killing a fully grown saltwater crocodile
This is bullshit. If this happened then they would have remains like the crocodile’s skull or at the very least photos of the kill. Also a “fully grown” saltwater croc could be anything from 200-1300+ kg. This comparison should tell you everything you need to know

Such a fucking shame that we cant even mention jaguars here without retards crawling out of the dark and mythologising them into grizzly-killing saltie-murdering superheroes. Animal deathmatch fags should stay caged in their containment forums

>>5141202
>How does that translate to preying on 5 metre caimans “very often”? Not a single caiman of that size has ever been recorded being preyed on
Lack of evidence does not mean evidence of absence, we just haven't recorded such interactions yet, but they happen and a large male Jaguar does have the weaponry and the know-how to kill a 5m black caiman, the size doesn't matter if the black caiman is paralyzed, besides, most of the size of a crocodilian is in the tail, so it does not really matter since the tail is useless against a Jaguar, oh and just so we're clear, I'm not a Jaguar fanboy or anything, I know that Black Caimans are just as deadly and they also kill Jaguars on occasion
>No American crocodile ever recorded has measured 6 metres in length, let alone one that was killed by a jaguar
Again, lack of evidence does not mean evidence of absence, just because there are no 6m long american crocodiles documented, does not mean that individuals can't reach those sizes, especially since they live in regions that are poorly mapped out and not many people research in those areas anyway, interactions between Jaguars and American Crocodiles do happen and they involve particularly large individuals
>Carnivora forum tier dogshit
>Jaguarland
>Carnivore forum tier
No, just no. Jaguarland is a serious project by Balam, a woman who's given her heart and soul into documenting Jaguars all over the americas, she posts tons of videos and documented accounts of Jaguars and their ecology, it's not some childish forum where people do AVA fights
>This is bullshit. If this happened then they would have remains like the crocodile’s skull or at the very least photos of the kill. Also a “fully grown” saltwater croc could be anything from 200-1300+ kg. This comparison should tell you everything you need to know
It's not bullshit, the Tiger dragged the dead croc away into the woods where it could eat in piece, it's no wonder people didn't find any remains

>>5141184
Holding an amount of weight is not the same as fighting a creature that is that weight. Or do you think humans can fight a 200kg gorilla because they can hold that weight?

>>5141202
>Carnivora forum
No that's a name i haven't heard in a while. You made me feel nostalgic for the shit flinging i engaged in when i was a lad

>>5141209
Why are big cat guys like this? they do the same shit with tigers and lions. I swear these people think big cats are super heroes instead of animals

>>5141248
Yes, what did you think humans used spears for?
[spoiler]It's not for thrusting the spear up to your own ass with your "200-300kg arm strength" if you believed that.[/spoiler]

I never see the point of these discussions/arguments, it's just bias and delusion on both sides, you can't have genuine conversation here
It's just people glazing their favorite animal and discrediting any others and spouting lies
Doesn't matter who, bear fans, big cat fans, wolf fans, alligator fans...

>>5141218
>we just haven't recorded such interactions yet
Then how do you know they happen often? You’re making shit up
>the size doesn't matter if the black caiman is paralyzed
It does when a jaguar can’t even get its jaws around the back of the caiman’s head
>most of the size of a crocodilian is in the tail
No it isn’t. It’s less than half the length of the body, not most of the length let alone size
>I'm not a Jaguar fanboy or anything
Least convincing thing you’ve said so far and that’s saying something
>Again, lack of evidence does not mean evidence of absence, just because there are no 6m long american crocodiles documented, does not mean that individuals can't reach those sizes
Again with this cop out. You said that jaguars frequently “duke it out” with 6 metre American crocodiles and win when you can’t possibly know that
>interactions between Jaguars and American Crocodiles do happen and they involve particularly large individuals
Find me a single instance of any interaction between a particularly large American crocodile and a jaguar
>the Tiger dragged the dead croc away into the woods where it could eat in piece
And yet there’s no remains. A tiger isn’t going to drag a large crocodile very far, that would be an absurd amount of effort for very little pay off

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>>5140751
NTA but Grizzlies aren't that big. They're medium sized brown bear.
What people think of Grizzlies, they actually think of a Kodiak, Polar sized brown bears.

>>5141209
Anything that involves a cat is going to get paleoschizo worked up. Pus filled brainholes, he can't help it.

>>5140751
NTA but wolves don’t necessarily supplant large cats everywhere. Tigers supplant wolves and asiatic lions probably would’ve done the same historically
>>5141332
Interior grizzlies aren’t that big but Alaskan peninsula grizzlies are basically as large as Kodiak bears

>>5141332
>>5141349
Aren't all of those just different populations of brown bear?

Guys did you know that leopards regularly kill 2 ton rhinos? i know there's no recorded evidence of this happen but it happens trust me

>>5141253
I don't know but they are so fucking bizarre. At this point i don't try to argue with them anymore. I think they may actually be retarded

>>5141374
The brown bear is the species Ursus arctos. In North America there are two subspecies of brown bear.
The grizzly bear is the subspecies U. a. horribilis while Kodiak bears are U. a. gyas. All the brown bears in mainland North America are grizzlies while Kodiak bears are restricted to islands in the Kodiak archipelago.
Within U. a. horribilis there are three main populations. Interior grizzlies, Alaska peninsula grizzlies and barren ground grizzlies.
The Alaska peninsula grizzlies used to be considered as their own distinct subspecies U. a. gyas, but have since been synonymised with U. a. horribilis after genetic analysis showed that they were not distinct.

>>5141401
>while Kodiak bears are U. a. gyas
I meant to say U. a. middendorffi here

>>5141401
I see

>>5141218
how does your faggot ass claim that something "frequently happens" when even you admit there is no evidence of it
in fact there is the evidence of the contrary happening which is jaguars actively avoiding areas with large black caiman so we also know your faggot ass actively being biased towards your own delusion and only looking at scientific evidence when it supports your bullshit

>>5140380
Jagglers have always struck me as the most dangerous Big Cat, even more so than lions and tigers. Googars can get mean because they're so territorial, but they're cuddly in the end. Just like cheetahs and leopards, they're all just cuddle bugs. But not jaguars.

>>5143587
It's a carnivorafag there's no point in arguing

>>5143694
Jaguars are not aggressive at all. The real mean cats are lions, tigers and leopards.
Actually is there a reason for that? why are the old world cats such mean motherfuckers but the new world cats are shy?

>>5143701
Maybe cuz they've been around humans longer idk. I always thought jags were more aggressive, like that was the whole reason why mesoamerican cultures considered hunting and killing one to be the mark of a great warrior

>>5143941
Jaguars rarely attack people, that's why there are more of them than Tigers in Asia

>>5140380
Only cats in the whole world that prey on cetaceans btw. This thing kills whales. The more you know

>>5145288
unironically this is true because there's depredation to river dolphins in the Amazonia

What is the carnivora forum?

>>5141184
>Orca x pretty much any large whale
in water, that means nothing
>Polar Bear x Walrus
wow, the animal thats more mobile wins
>Lions x Buffalos
they lose if the buffalo actually decides to fight
>Hyenas x Buffalos
they lose if the buffalo actually decides to fight
>Wild dogs x Buffalos
they lose if the buffalo actually decides to fight
>Siberian Tiger x Brown Bear
maybe
>Jaguar x Black Caiman
wow, the more mobile animal wins
>Lions x Elephants
they lose
>Lions x Rhinoceros
they lose if the rhinoceros actually decides to fight
>Jaguar x River Dolphin
wow, a cat eating a fish
>Wolf x Bison
they lose if the bison actually decides to fight
>Polar Bear x Belugas
wow, a bear eating a fish

>>5146406
A forum revolving around a bunch of dudes with small penises powerscaling animals. Think /dbs/ but less schizophrenic but just as retarded and embarrassing.

>>5146406
Old forum where people debate hypothetical interspecies combat matchups between different animals. I used to have an account there back in the early 2010s when it was still hosted on Zetaboards.

It's also the biggest, most delusional felid fanboy circlejerk on the internet. Genuinely insufferable place to browse for nuanced or non-hyperbolic discussion because of it. 95% of users there are just slightly more articulate–but equally deranged– YouTube commenters

>>5146408
>they lose if the buffalo actually decides to fight
So why did these animals just evolve to choose to get eaten?

>>5146701
The ones that evolved to fight turned back into the eaters
Carnivory is actually the basal condition for tetrapods. Herbivory is a devolved state. They start eating plants, do well at first, but less intelligence and “soul” is selected for by the absent rigors of their lifestyle and they become dull drones that exist to die so the other ones can get away.

An herbivore has to be fucking massive just to be as smart and soulful as an omnivore that eats bugs, frogs, and twigs. The few exceptions to this are relatively recent devolutions and will either go extinct or devolve further.

>>5146702
meds

>>5146708
why did that post offend you? its how nature works. plants are less nutrient dense, less bioavailable, and can not support a good cognitive ability/body size ratio over evolutionary time scales. even in humans, the one population that has purposefully eaten as little meat as possible over an evolutionarily significant time period has the smallest brains and lowest IQ scores because long term plants just aren’t brain food. the brain gets smaller, or works slower and spends more time not doing anything.

>>5146701
Prey mentality basically. Why waste time fighting when you can just be faster than your friend?

>>5146701
It's all risk assessment on whether it's safer to run away or fight back in each situation. They do frequently fight back and even kill lions. There's a reason the cape buffalo is nicknamed the Black Death.

>>5146408
>wow, the animal thats more mobile wins
They don’t though. Polar bears hardly ever take adult walruses even on land. The walrus wins 99% of the time

>>5146711
>Says the Americunt claiming the carnivore-meme while being doxxed by a hacker from India

>>5146995
nta but what the fuck are you talking about?

>>5141184
You posted a massive load of bullshit. In most cases, predators do fail to take down their prey most of the time. The examples you posted are not their usual prey. Lions are the largest land pack hunters and the average weight of their kills are 115 kg or 132 kg depending on location. It's even smaller for other predators (For tigers it's 95 kg).
>Orca x pretty much any large whale
Define large. For the truly enormous whales, even though orcas hunt in groups, they leave adult male sperm whales alone and get bodied by humpback whales. That's an entire pod. One on one they have zero chance.
>Polar Bear x Walrus
Polar bears rarely hunt adult walruses. They'll only do it if they're desperate because the chance they get killed is far higher than the chance of a successful hunt.
>Lions x Buffalos
>Hyenas x Buffalos
>Wild dogs x Buffalos
>Lions x Elephants
>Lions x Rhinoceros
>Wolf x Bison
Using pack hunters as examples invalidates your claim, and the predators have the benefit of targeting the young, sick, weak, or old. One cape buffalo is dangerous prey for a pride of lions. Even a clan of hyenas or a pack of wild dogs is not a serious threat to healthy adult cape buffaloes. Same logic for wolves and bison. Lions are not serious threats to healthy adult rhinos and elephants. There's one pride that specializes in hunting elephants and they only hunt subadults with around 30 lions. A bull elephant would annihilate an entire pride.
>Siberian Tiger x Brown Bear
They target subadult or small female bears lethargic from hibernation. Brown bears frequently steal kills from tigers. Brown bears are dominant over Siberian tigers, not the other way around.
>Jaguar x Black Caiman
Doesn't happen as the rest of the thread already told you.
>Jaguar x River Dolphin
Observed too rarely to draw any conclusions it and Amazon river dolphins aren't that much bigger than jaguars anyway.
>Polar Bear x Belugas
Occurs when belugas are trapped and can't swim out to open water.

>>5147110
Anon the person you are replying to thinks jaguars regularly kill 500kg caiman despite no evidence for that happening existing because "it just happens ok?". There's no point in explaining it

>>5140380
one Jaguar is capable of taking down to full size grizzlies . these cats are OP as fuck

>>5146701
cape buffalo is one of the big five, that means something if hunting them with a gun is still very dangerous, same cant be said for hippos though

>>5147135
Stop trolling

>>5147213
How is it trolling when it's true?