so recently there have been talks of some undescribed well preserved Allosaurus jimmadseni fossils that have preserved soft tissues including its lips! Brian Engh (yes I know) got access to these fossils and made a statue bust of Allosaurus, it’s about as ugly as you’d expect and filled with Enghisms like a literal toupee but that’s not important, what is important is the facial tissue he based off of the actual fossil. Pic related is cropped for the sake of keeping thread on topic but as you can see the lips have pits for the upper teeth to slot into.
those pits if legit are very interesting because it provides a nice clean surprisingly simple answer to a question both sides of the debate asked which is>pro lip: the jaws couldn’t have closed that tight because the lips would be sliced up>anti lip: the jaws could close that tight and that’s means no lips because they would be sliced up>real answer: the jaws could close that tight and the animals were slicing up their lips and not caring about itfeels kinda silly that nobody considered that since the only toothed Archosaurs alive today punch holes into their own skulls and Theropods historically have been preserved with evidence of healing from hideous injuries proving they are very hardy creatures. however a true answer remains to be seen until those fossils get described.
>>5151002Wouldn't those be a hotbed for germs
>>5151005modern day crocodile monitors regularly cut the shit out of their own gums and dont give a shit either. >>5151074You'd think so but it rarely seems to be an issue. if anything you hear about stomatitis more in smaller reptiles, especially insectivores and herbivores. I guess they need to crunch down more on their food, since monitors usually just use their teeth to hold things while they tear chunks off, if they can't gulp it down whole.
>>5151002>Brain Engh made that modelWell that explains why it is so ugly. Very interesting stuff regardless
Full model for those interested
>>5151096It’s ugly but honestly not that bad by Engh standards
>>5151074I mean a lot of lizards and snakes have their teeth completely sheathed by their gums and it doesn’t seem to pose an issue with bacteria getting inside so I doubt these would
>>5151002>Pic related is cropped for the sake of keeping thread on topicAre there feathers?
>>5151288>>5151096
>>5151096I understand that Engh being Engh is why we have the silly hairdo and awful color scheme but why they fuck did he make its eyes so huge, they're like twice the size they should be.
>>5151568
>>5151002Brian Engh is based and you're cringe
>>5151096
>>5151096give it lips, give it feathers, give it whatever you wantbut allosaurus without red crests just feels wrong
>>5151002Paleoschizo will never recover from this
>>5151002Remember paleontology ended with Mirasaura, since it proved that westerners are now willing to commit open fraud just like the chinese. I promise you that whatever the lips on theropods look like, it isn't this. This is just fucking retarded. As far as I'm concerned the issue is already settled. Carnosaurs had lips like crocodiles. They have the exact same foramina and from my experience whenever there is doubt revert to crocodile when it comes to dinosaurs. Also I mean anything that involves engh, do I even need to say it?
>>5151002Also why the hell does this have neck scales like a shin? This entire reconstruction looks retarded.
>>5151005You do realize that this "solution" is exactly the same as just giving them lips, right? Except more retarded. All the problems with Carnosaurs having lips are still present with this retarded pit invention.
>>5151074That's the least of this gibberish's problem.
>>5151078For the 5 millionth time, Carnosaurs are not monitor lizards. They're not lizards at all and they're not even remotely closely related. You may as well tell us about what plesiosaurs or turtles are like.
>>5151124It's a fucking masterpiece by his standards. But the bar is so low when it comes to that, you may as well be limboing in a septic tank. I love how all of this shit is always based on just trust me bro shit by the way too. I guarantee you this will never be published. It's probably completely fake.
>>5151096The more I look at this the more I notice how inaccurate it is:- He's covered the teeth too much like a lizard when they should be more exposed out of the gums like a crocodilian - He's made the lips soft like a mammal's which is completely wrong. It even has a snarl for fuck's sake- The shape of the lips, and the scaling on the mouth is completely wrong. It should be much more crocodilian-like.- That rictus is completely wrong. It looks like it was modeled by someone who's never seen a reptile before.- He's forgotten to add the sensory pits that would have been present all over the mouth of Carnosaurs, just like in crocodilians.- That absolutely bizarre shin scaling on the neck what the fuck?- Snake-like a trachea and barbed tongue - just complete inventions.- The scaling over most of the model is so small you can't even see it. This is totally inaccurate. You would be able to see the scales on any dinosaur. They're typically much larger than people expect.- Of course the ear is just an open hole with no protection because "birds have this", except they have protection in the form of feathers just like mammals have protection in the form of hairs. The reason reptiles have an external tympanum or an entirely internal ear is because they don't have feathers or hair protecting the ear canal.- Obviously the feathers don't belong there. This is like a faith testimony from dinosaur renaissance cultists at this point. It's like a purity test like if you ask a shitlib if trannies are women.This hideous shit is just complete fantasy, as is usual for paleontology these days. Having said all that, I do like the color pattern on the neck and the crests are actually pretty realistic given the color palette typical for keratinous features on reptiles. I'm sure I'll find even more wrong with it the more I think about it.
>>5151568Of all the things to criticize about this model the eye is probably the least inaccurate. That's fine. The only argument I have against it is that he's got the eye wide open and the pupil constricted like the poor thing has been kicked in the balls. It should be relaxed. Artists routinely depict Carnosaur eyes smaller than they should be. It's always bothered me.
>>5151604Go watch his rap videos and get back with us.>>5151658Recover from what? A totally fake reconstruction of a dinosaur? That's normal now.
Watch this shit be the new thing that all redditors believe and spread all over the internet as if it's science for the next 20 years, when it's literally just a known troll making something up.
I've never seen or heard a satisfactory answer as to why dinosaurs would have needed lips when pterosaurs such as rhamphorhynchoids, darwinopterids and ornithocheirids didn't.
>>5151883>>5151898Concavenator and a specimen of Allosaurus jimmadseni have skin impressions of flat rectangular ventral scutes that are similar to the belly scutes on snakes. Allo has them on the neck and Conca has them on the tail (pic related) so they probably extended down the entire length of the underside.>A third specimen of Allosaurus jimmadseni (KNHM11) additionally shows that part of the mandible was cov-ered with minute pebbly scales whereas the ventral portionof the neck appears to show broad scutate ventral scales>The best-preserved skin in any carnosaurian comes fromthe carcharodontosaurid Concavenator (Fig. 9), which preservesan avian-style podotheca with scutate (Fig. 9F), scutellate,and reticulate scales (Fig. 9G) combined with arthral plantarpads in which the interpad creases do not align with the inter-phalangeal joint (Cuesta et al., 2015; Cuesta, Ortega &Sanz, 2016; Fig. 9C, D; Appendix S3.4). Rectangular ventralscales, reminiscent of those in extant snakes, also lined theunderside of the tail (Bell & Hendrickx, 2021; Fig. 9A, B).sauce: Morphology and distribution of scales, dermalossi cations, and other non-featherintegumentary structures in non-avialantheropod dinosaurshttps://sci-hub.box/storage/2024/8948/b60b2fea30075eb1a433fe521e4edb448a75a4abad917220fccc09579f6cfde3/hendrickx2022.pdf
why is it so important to flag people, to the point of obsession, that dinosaurs had lips
Here is Brian Engh explaining some aspects of the model, separated into three partshttps://www.instagram.com/museum_of_the_rockies/reel/DbejnzejVTv/?hl=en (Part 1)https://www.instagram.com/museum_of_the_rockies/reel/Dbn4Lo4APp5/?hl=en (Part 2)https://www.instagram.com/museum_of_the_rockies/reel/Db9ZtUskvAZ/?hl=en (Part 3)
>>5151096Seems too light of build for a dinosaur that size.
>>5151922I never thought about that but that's funny. I never took that retarded argument seriously because it's clearly something that people who don't know anything about anatomy or biology say. I mean elephants and various Suines exist now. I've said for years that the argument goes like this: - Oh well actually saber tooth cats or t-rex had to have lips surrounding their teeth because teeth can't be exposed without cracking and it's integrating they have to be wet at all times.- Then you immediately remind them that elephants exist.- Then they immediately say something stupid like elephants don't use the points of their teeth or something or that they're not enameled and for some reason this matters.- Then you remind them that elephants used to have enamel tusks.- Then they shoot themselves behind a CVS dumpster.
>>5152035*Disintegrating
>>5151971The scutes don't comprise one row you fucking imbecile. How are you completely unaware of the next skin of Triceratops?
>>5152024Jesus Christ paleontology has become so fucking faggy since the dinosaur renaissance. And they literally wonder why all they attract is trannies now.
>>5151898You talk about the feathers like it's completely covered in them when it's just a silly little haircut at worst.It might not be the best look but there's far worse from both Engh and other artists in general
>>5151971After a pretty thorough search it seems like the claims of scutes on the neck of Allosaurus and of any scales on the mandible are complete fabrication. They have never been published as far as I can tell except in just trust me bro claims. No photographs, no evidence. The 2022 paper covering theropod scales generally claims they exist but doesn't demonstrate any evidence of them. That's as much as I can find. Scales have been found from the rest of Allosaurus but not the neck or the mandible as far as I can tell. These people appear to be just making shit up. Now having said that I would expect scutes from the neck of all Dinosaurs. But until someone actually presents some evidence that any of this shit has been found I don't believe it exists. I'm a scientist. "Just trust me, bro" is not evidence. Now I see why this idiot put a single row of scutes on the neck. He's never actually seen any evidence for this because there isn't any. So he doesn't know what to look for because like all paleofaggots he only cares about Theropods so he doesn't actually know anything about Dinosaurs.>>5152096Cease being a faggot at once. "Just a little bit of feathers, bro" is not science. Seriously, go to fucking rehab already. Get help.
>>5152113Oh my fucking god the story gets even worse. Apparently this supposed skin is kept in a private museum in fucking Denmark. This is exactly what is wrong with the private fossil trade and why it needs to be globally banned just like weapons or drug trading. Not only can these sons a bitches not demonstrate that this exists at all, but they're a private institution so they're not actually a real museum anyway. It's just some rich asshole's private collection. Now I'm 100% convinced this is a complete fabrication.
>>5152119welp
>>5152121Honestly I'm kind of surprised that brusatte isn't jerking himself off to this just thinking about the business opportunities. It's not like he's a real paleontologist.
>>5152121Also, palmer whining about setting bad precedents while he's creating the goriest monster movie paleoart he possibly can is pretty fucking rich.
>>5151096Nothing stops reminding me of her
>>5152113Fuck off paleoschizo. Dinosaurs are birds. They have feathers. Deal with it.
>>5152151There is a giant DUMB beneath the Pyrenees Mountains that connects the North Atlantic to the Western Mediterranean. Death to your family, engagement bot.
>>5152151Birds are dinosaurs, not the other way around.
>>5151096New basedjack dropped!
>>5151898>except they have protection in the form of feathersExcept for when they don’t>>5152035>Then you remind them that elephants used to have enamel tusksIvory tusks pre-date true elephants>>5152119>Now I'm 100% convinced this is a complete fabrication>It disagrees with me so it can’t be realHe really will never recover from this
>>5151096me a few years from now after i get the hair plugs i very badly need and deserve
>/an/ - Animals & Nature
>>5151574I love when he speaks like this as if he wasn't just making shit up
>>5151898>The scaling over most of the model is so small you can't even see itAnon, Brian Engh unironically thinks dinosaurs had no scales at all
stop raping the thread with non dinosaur discussion and take it to /pol/ faggots
>>5152271Yeah I remember. It's just such a stupid thing to believe that I actually forgot about it.
>>5152121>oh my god, a Rembrandt fetched $100M at an auction! if this is how much paintings cost now, how can museums afford them?You'd expect someone who at least went to university to be familiar with how museum collections are constituted but I guess not
>>5151002Alligators also cut holes into their jaws with their teeth btw
Don't all land vertebrates have lips to keep their teeth protected and prevent them from drying out? Crocodilians don't need them because they spend 90% of their time in the water.
>>5153534Virtually all of them do. Paleoschizo copes with this by using animals with exposed tusks as a counterpoint, conveniently ignoring that tusks are specially adapted for being exposed compared to the animal’s other teeth which are all concealed
Pro lips centrist here, waiting until someone puts lips over herb beaks just so the anti lips crowd loses their minds
>>5151922Could be survivorship bias since pterosaurs rarely fossilize to begin with and the vast majority of pterosaurs we know of are coastal species that primarily fed on fish so it's possible they may have had a crocodilian-like condition that discouraged the evolution of lips. They're not especially helpful for gripping onto slippery prey, and the presence of lips in spinosaurs is frequently contested for the same reason. Not to mention, beaks in archosaurs tend to completely override lips as we see in not only beaked non-avian dinosaurs like ceratopsians, oviraptorosaurs, and hadrosaurs, but also with modern birds, so with most pterosaurs possessing beaks, they wouldn't be present in that majority. Anurognathids do not have beaks and their reconstructions will often give them lips which makes a bit more sense as they're primarily insect eaters whose fossils are known from inland lakes, and their closest modern analogue in terms of ecology would be bats who also have lips.
>>5153534Aren't there extinct land crocs? Did they have lips?
>>5153802They were polyphyodonts like modern crocodiles and extinct theropod dinosaurs so they probably didn't need lips
>>5151002They'll eventually find a 2-feet-wide kiss mark fossilized in mud and that'll settle it.
>>5151096kek
>>5151096christ this guy looks dry and crusty without scales and the endless wrinkles
>>5153534>90% of their time in the waterThey can spend days on land.
>>5153603Tusks are specially adapted for mammals. They can't replace hundreds of teeth like reptiles so they have tusks that keep growing to deal with frequent wear. The polyphyodonty accommodates for this in crocodiles and dinosaurs.
>>5153950But polyphyodonty does not require the absence of lips. Every living terrestrial polyphyodont has lips and most of those replace their teeth faster than large theropods did. You can’t just assume that they didn’t have lips just because of that
>>5154010Crocodiles aren't terrestrial because I said so
>>5154038Correct
>>5154010>polyphyodonty does not require the absence of lipsPerhaps I should clarify a bit more. That was not my point.I was saying that since many mammals only have two sets of teeth, tusked animals like boars need an adaptation that prevent their teeth from being worn down all the way. They could constantly replace their teeth like crocodiles or they could have permanent teeth that keep growing their whole life, which seems to be easier for them.
>>5153323kek, beautifulits all come full circlearchosaurs gonna archosaur
>>5153676They did that way back in 2000 with disneys dinosaur movie.
>>5151002If dinosaurs had lips where are all the lip fossils?
>>5155078They did it back in '91 too
>>5151901>Go watch his rap videosGod please don't remind me
>>5155078That shit was so weird but i kind of get it since they are cartoon characters that have to emote like humans
>>5155093https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwv49YIVaus:)
>>5152113>I'm a scientist>I don't trust anything other scientists publishThat's not a real thing
>>5155078Their beaks were inside their mouths.
>>5155186dipshit that’s what >>5153676was talking about.
>>5151096>feathers on a carnosaurSubhuman retard alert.
>>5151002The important part is that there are no feathers.
>>5152121>if this how much dinosaurs cost how will museums afford them?is he retarded? has he ever heard of a lease? does he know how museums function? lol
>>5153323Alligators are weird. Even for crocodilians. I do think that therapods had lips more like crocodiles but it would have been more like actual crocodiles where the teeth had little indentations in the lower lip on the sides not actual holes that they slotted into. That seems goofy.
>>5153534>Muh teefs hafta stay wetAh the myth that won't die. Add it to the list.
>>5152183>Wow I presented a bullshit claim without any evidence to back it up you sure are mad!Do you hear how retarded you sound? Or does this fucking word salad sound intelligent to you?
>>5155087Still more accurate than most modern paleo art.>>5155102It is if you're an actual scientist and not a careerist faggot like all the STEM zoomers these days. Most "scientists" these days are not doing anything resembling science.
>>5155807The mammalian lips are fucking disgusting. Is it that fucking hard to make them look like immovable lizard lips?
>>5155809>The mammalian lipsWhat's mammalian about them?
>>5155810They are seemingly able to move
>>5155823What about them indicates that they are seemingly able to move?
>>5155807jesus christ how horrifying
>>5155807Man I hope big Al didn’t look that mega retarded in real life.
>>5151889the 65th million time*
>>5151096I'm Ok with the Idea of carnosaurs like allosaurus having lips. what I am not ok with is them looking like this. why does he have feathers and feathers exclusively on his head? like dude. he looks like an imbred kid who got out from a barbers with a bad fade
>>5155940The 66th million time*
>>5155807The fact that modern paleontologists are regularly lowering themselves to working with disinformation agents like brian engh tells you everything you need to know about whether or not you can believe paleontologists these days.
>>5156018Allosaurus has a semilunate carpal proving that it's closely related to birds and raptors and probably had feathers. But we also have skin fossils showing it had lost feathers over most of its body. If it had any feathers left they were probably on the top of its head just like the only long hair humans have left is on top of the head
>>5156344So what you're saying is that the semi lunate carpal is another cope.
>>5155807>>5151096for what reason would an ambush predator look like a paddle pop ice cream?
>>5156451It's stronger evidence of Allosaurus having feathers than yutyrannus is of t. rex having feathers.There is no other reason for the semilunate carpal. It's a fucking wing bone
>>5151898>- The scaling over most of the model is so small you can't even see it. This is totally inaccurate. You would be able to see the scales on any dinosaur. They're typically much larger than people expect.Basically every dinosaur we've ever found has extremely small scales, except on the belly.
>>5153534Aestivating crocodilians can spend months out of the water buried in the dirt with no tooth rot.
