>>5160531
But nobody cares in the slightest about rats. We slowly and painfully poison billions of rats to death every year. Often it takes days to kill them. Rethink Priorities noted: https://rpstrategicanimalinsights.substack.com/p/anti-rodenticides-advocacy

>Rodenticides are thought to cause rodents 2-3 days of intense pain before eventually causing death. For example, some types of rodenticides cause symptoms of internal bleeding in rodents: dizziness, abdominal pain, diarrhea, hypothermia, rapid heartbeat, and difficulty breathing. Poisoned rodents often act in ways suggesting that they are in pain, including discontinuing eating, standing in a hunched posture, and wandering into open spaces where they are vulnerable to predators.

>>5160532
Rethink Priorities then polled people on whether they thought this was a better argument for reducing rodenticide use than other arguments. 0% of people thought this was the best argument. People were much more moved by the argument that pets might ingest trace amounts of poisonous rodenticides than the argument that rodents might ingest non-trace amounts and die horribly.

Remember: your rats are like your pets. Rats are as smart as your pets and as conscious. The only difference is how we treat them. Rats are inconvenient to us and they carry disease. From the outside, they are pests. From the inside, the life of a rat is like the life of a cat or a dog. Think of rats as being like dogs trapped in the body of a furry, disease-spreading rodent. I’m reminded of a speech given by Philip Wollen:

>I heard the screams of my dying father as his body was ravaged by the many cancers that killed him. And I realised I had heard those screams before. In the slaughterhouse, on the cattle ships to the Middle East and the dying mother whale as a harpoon explodes in her brain as she calls out to her calf. Their cries were the cries of my father. They were identical.

>I discovered when we suffer, we suffer as equals. And in their capacity to suffer, a dog is a pig is a bear. . . . . is a boy.

>When I look into your beautiful faces tonight I recall the words of the Greek poet Horace “Change only the names and my story is also about you.”

>>5160533
Change only the exterior of your pet, let it loose in the wild, and the story is also about them.

And yet nobody cares. Nobody cares that we are slowly poisoning them to death, so that they die over the course of days, bleeding from their abdomens, struggling to breathe, undergoing horrible, horrible deaths. Because they are inconvenient to us, almost no one in the world has the slightest shred of concern for their welfare. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the inconsistency of our attitudes towards animals.

We say we love animals. In practice, we do not. We only care about their interests when they are convenient to us. Take a being with a mind like a dog, make it so that it’s a pest, and there will be complete unanimity in thinking that it’s totally unimportant that its species is horribly poisoned to death by the billions.

When it comes to animals, there are approximately four kinds of attitudes we have to them:

1 Pets: we pamper them and care about their interests.

>>5160534
2 Food and lab animals: we occasionally mutter promissory notes about how important it is to treat them well. Then, we subject them to literal torture for their whole lives. In this case, we do not live up to our rhetoric; we say we should treat them well, but we don’t, and most people don’t try very hard to live up to their stated ideals in this domain.

3 Charismatic wild animals: some wild animals, like gorillas and lions, are charismatic. For this reason, we care moderately about their interests. We at least mildly oppose directly killing them horribly for trivial reasons and are concerned about their populations declining. However, virtually no one thinks their welfare is actually worthy of promotion, while we think we shouldn’t go out of our way to harm them, almost nobody thinks it’s a big deal that, say, deer are often eaten alive by predators over the course of many minutes. When hunters shoot them, we care a lot. When other predators kill them much more painfully, nobody cares. (Note: I am not commenting on exactly how we should improve their welfare. I am merely noting that most people don’t think that their welfare is important in principle.)

4 Uncharismatic wild animals: the vast majority of wild animals are not charismatic. They’re not cute or maybe they are but they’re inconvenient to us in some ways (mice are cute but nobody cares about them). Thus, everybody agrees that their interests count for zero, we can do whatever we want, harm them however much we’d like, and it doesn’t matter at all. The only thing that might possibly matter is if this threatened conservation goals, if their populations dwindled or they went extinct. But the lives of particular individuals are seen as completely unimportant. If rodenticides caused a million times more suffering, if they made rats undergo experiences much worse than the most painful human death, people still wouldn’t care.

>>5160536
Rats are in the fourth category. The price of our inconsistency is paid in their blood.

My cousins have a dog who we sometimes dog sit. She is very small and cute, nearer in size to a rat than a large dog. When I imagine someone like her being interrupted from innocently playing by a horrible poison, so that she struggles to breathe and bleeds internally and cries out, all alone, and then dies, in horrible pain, over the course of days, it’s just too awful to imagine. Yet that is the situation for rats.

Ultimately, wild animal suffering is complicated. It’s not entirely clear how we should treat rats. But I think the clearest thing is that we should have compassion for them. To completely ignore their interests out of convenience is evil and grotesque, to ignore the rich inner lives of animals, to only consider how they are of use to us. Imagine what it would be like to be these rats, rather than writing off their interests because it is annoying to consider them.

Wilfred Owen famously wrote about the deaths from poisonous gas in World War one. I’m going to quote it. Remember that this is roughly how the rats die (though more slowly), that these are creatures who feel pain just like you and me, and that despite that, absolutely nobody cares.

>Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,

>As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

>In all my dreams before my helpless sight,

>He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

>If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace

>Behind the wagon that we flung him in,

>And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,

>His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;

>If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood

>Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,

>Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud

>Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,

>>5160531
>Nobody cares about men.

>In fact, there is almost no issue more bipartisan than not caring in the slightest about the welfare of men and boys. Almost no belief is more widely shared by the American public than not giving a rat’s ass about a baby boys bodily autonomy to not be mutilated. There are many times more people who think the earth is 6,000 years old than people who care the slightest bit about infant male circumcision or divorce and family courts.

>teenage boys are about as smart and strong as adult women. It’s undeniable baby boys feel pain when circumcised; one way we know this is that they have the same brain regions that activate in adult humans when adult humans feel pain. Another is that when you try to inflict pain on them by mutilating them while they are strapped down, they thrash around horribly-trying desperately to get away. It is obvious when an adult man is in pain. It is likewise obvious when a baby boy is in pain for precisely the same reasons, in exactly the same ways.

Thanks grok

>Another benthams ai spam thread
Liberal cognition is defective.
"I used a lot of words to say rats are alive, better let them shit in your grain stores. How can we really say murder and rape are wrong if lab rats, HUH? All life is like, LIFE man"
>>>/india/

>>5160547
theres billions of chickens born and killed every year and almost all food / grains fed to them is edible for humans

>>5160548
and they must be fed multiple pounds of grain to make a single pound of chicken flesh or eggs
vegans cause less crop harvesting and crop self defense deaths to wild animals

>>5160548
First off, that's not actually true.
https://www.ilri.org/news/fao-sets-record-straight-86-livestock-feed-inedible-humans
Chicken feed is pelletized, processed from various products of which only some are human grade grain. These cannibal reptiles can eat fucking grass.
Second, chicken is significantly more nutritious than any plant food that goes into them. I agree that we should decentralize livestock rearing for supply chain antifragility and efficiency reasons but it's not that big of a deal.

We do still feed some grain because grain/forage/fodder farming is nearly automated and harvesting agricultural waste, food scraps, and bugs for chicken feed on the same scale isn't as fuel efficient. The end result of the current system is a food source (meat, broth and eggs) that provides everything the brain and body need to reach their full potential and is affordable in sufficient amounts for people belonging to every socioeconomic strata. Additionally, their shit, and slaughterhouse waste, is a significant source of fertilizer for *all other food crops* and enables continuous production of not just grains, but more nutritious vegetables. Without dedicated farming facilities there's a severe manure/carcass waste problem that people have never handled correctly.

If chicken rearing were not industrial in scale, and we did not replace it with a traditional decentralized system, the lower classes in society would phase into permanent oppression due to insufficient development ("surely they will just take the ideal ratio of barely-bioavailable supplements" yes that keeps adults merely alive albeit a bit dysfunctional, but children still don't develop properly without animal products).

The next move right now is more efficient, smaller, more numerous factory farms. Reducing pre-market waste reduces hen density required and also improves welfare and reduces disease and therefore, losses.

But the chickens are still being eaten.

>>5160551
>and they must be fed multiple pounds of grain to make a single pound of chicken flesh or eggs
And it takes multiple pounds of coal to process a pound of gold into a useful item. Welcome to a higher trophic level, human. If you want to be a cow well, go join the lower caste in india.
>vegans cause less crop harvesting and crop self defense deaths to wild animals
So what? It doesn't fucking matter. Welcome to a higher trophic level. Life consumes life.

You're a retard and always have been.

>>5160553
### Evaluation of Person A

* **"Theres billions of chickens born and killed every year"**
**Correct.** Globally, over 70 billion chickens are slaughtered for meat annually.
* **"And almost all food / grains fed to them is edible for humans"**
**Partially Incorrect.** Commercial poultry feed relies heavily on human-edible crops (roughly 50% to 70% consists of corn, wheat, and basedbean meal), but it also incorporates industrial processing byproducts like rice bran and distillers grains. Calling it "almost all" overstates the fraction.
* **"And they must be fed multiple pounds of grain to make a single pound of chicken flesh or eggs"**
**Correct.** The Feed Conversion Ratio (FCR) for broiler chickens is approximately 1.5 to 2.0 pounds of feed per pound of live weight gain, which translates to roughly 3 to 4 pounds of feed per pound of dressed, edible meat. Egg production requires roughly 2 pounds of feed per pound of eggs.
* **"Vegans cause less crop harvesting and crop self defense deaths to wild animals"**
**Correct.** Because feeding animals requires significantly more crop acreage than feeding humans directly (due to thermodynamic energy loss), a plant-based diet reduces total crop land harvested and the associated accidental mortality of field animals during harvest.

---

### Evaluation of Person B

>>5160555
>>5160553
* **"First off, that's not actually true. [Citing FAO: 86% of livestock feed is inedible to humans]"**
**Misapplied.** The cited 2017 FAO study (*Mottet et al.*) calculated that 86% of global *total* livestock feed is inedible to humans. However, that high average is driven by cattle and sheep eating grass and forage. For poultry specifically, roughly 50% to 70% of feed consists of human-edible grains and oilseeds. Applying the broad 86% statistic specifically to chickens is factually inaccurate.
* **"Chicken feed is pelletized, processed from various products of which only some are human grade grain."**
**Partially Correct.** Feed is pelletized and utilizes agricultural byproducts, but primary ingredients (corn and onions) are human-edible crops grown on arable land.
* **"These cannibal reptiles can eat fucking grass."**
**Factually Incorrect.** Chickens are birds (monogastrics, single-stomached) and cannot digest cellulose effectively. Unlike cows or sheep, chickens derive negligible energy from grass and cannot survive or produce eggs efficiently on a pasture-only diet without concentrated feed inputs.
* **"Second, chicken is significantly more nutritious than any plant food that goes into them."**
**Partially Correct.** Chicken meat provides high-density, bioavailable complete protein, vitamin B12, zinc, and heme iron compared to raw corn or onions feed. However, it lacks fiber, vitamin C, and specific phytonutrients found in plants.
* **"We do still feed some grain because grain/forage/fodder farming is nearly automated and harvesting agricultural waste, food scraps, and bugs for chicken feed on the same scale isn't as fuel efficient."**
**Correct.** Grain production is highly mechanized and economically streamlined. Collecting, sanitizing, and processing food scraps or insects at an industrial scale currently faces significant logistics and energy-efficiency hurdles.
*

>>5160556
>>5160555
>>5160553
**"The end result of the current system is a food source... that provides everything the brain and body need to reach their full potential and is affordable..."**
* *Mostly Correct.** Poultry and eggs are highly bioavailable, cost-effective sources of essential nutrients that prevent micro-nutrient deficiencies, though meat alone does not contain every essential nutrient (such as vitamin C or dietary fiber).
* **"Additionally, their shit, and slaughterhouse waste, is a significant source of fertilizer for *all other food crops*..."**
** Partially Correct.** Poultry manure, bone meal, and blood meal are important sources of organic nitrogen and phosphorus. However, synthetic nitrogen (via the Haber-Bosch process) and mined minerals make up the vast majority of fertilizer used for global crop production.
* **"Without dedicated farming facilities there's a severe manure/carcass waste problem..."**
**Misleading.** Industrial Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations (CAFOs) frequently generate severe localized environmental hazards, such as nutrient runoff and water pollution, rather than solving waste management problems.
* **"If chicken rearing were not industrial in scale... the lower classes in society would phase into permanent oppression due to insufficient development..."**
**Exaggerated.** While cheap animal protein helps prevent malnutrition in low-income populations, major dietetic organizations agree that well-planned plant-based diets can support normal growth across all life stages. Claiming it would cause "permanent oppression" is an overstatement.

>>5160551
>>5160548
vegtards often say "we can feed more people" but
1: we produce enough food for the entire planet right this moment. the problem is most of what we classify as people are too stupid to maintain the logistics systems required to feed the entire planet and if we try to share the food, it spoils. they are also too stupid to moderate their consumption of literally anything and most will gladly kill themselves sooner (veganism done poorly) or later (meat overconsumption).
2: since even in developed countries, 50% of people are retarded, humans are incapable of responsible reproduction and there are too many people for the land to actually support right now. if you fed an extra 350 million births by enforcing some horseshit "ethically guided" dietary change well guess what, those 350 million use lots of other resources as well or you force them to live in primitive poverty conditions as a lower caste. we do not need a massive underclass. most jobs right now are totally superfluous and our planetary civilization overproduces nearly every service and durable good. the only reason to do this is to engage in the religious service of mammon and generate an infinitely growing supply of debt-capital in perpetuity.

>>5160562
What about longevity drugs currently being tested on them?

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>Excuse me, but I asked AI!
Spamming AI vomit is the same as conceding the argument. You source a chatbot that uses extremely biased sources.

You therefore have no argument. Just say "uhm, the wef says you worthless worker drones well being is sufficient without sacrificing sentient beans, save the precious flesh for your superior rulers" and get it over with. Because that is the honestly held belief of the debt-capital worshiping cabal that owns western AI development.

The irony of a self proclaimed "ethical" vegan getting all its opinions from a heavily biased, billionaire owned chatbot that sucks up power and water like nothing else is fucking rich.

>>5160558
>**"Additionally, their shit, and slaughterhouse waste, is a significant source of fertilizer for *all other food crops*..."**
>** Partially Correct.** Poultry manure, bone meal, and blood meal are important sources of organic nitrogen and phosphorus. However, synthetic nitrogen (via the Haber-Bosch process) and mined minerals make up the vast majority of fertilizer used for global crop production.

This is why many prominent vegans advocate for avoiding organic vegan food as it makes factory farming more profitable.

>>5160566
Brandolini's law

>>5160567
Organic fertilizer from western farms actually provides enough fertilizer to support the west.

The problem is we force the ag sector into capitalism, which is better fit for services and durable goods. In capitalism we need to oversupply to keep costs down and force different brands to compete by lowering prices, and normally, to innovate. If we suddenly cut supply by only growing enough food (innovation in ag is efficiency), greedy humans would jack prices just because they could. Also it's so dysfunctional atm that farming is subsidized by public funds without being managed for public good. We pay communist farming taxes while farmers behave like capitalists in the durable goods industry.
Believe it or not, capitalist and communist resource management styles can be applied sector by sector instead of slapped over the whole economy as an ethical imperative... but you have to be consistent in those sectors if you do so. Mixing public funds and private control tends towards enabling theft on a grand scale.
>paying for your food twice

Historically farming has been a self sufficient industry and the human population didnt exceed its ability to support itself wherever it occurred, or there would be famine. Mined/processed fertilizers just served the interests of debt-capital and fueled population explosions in regions that couldn't really support them - not the environment, and not the level of civilization the local humans were able to maintain. Many of these regions can't even produce their own fertilizer... or their own food.

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I was thinking about doing pest control because I need a job but I don't want to kill rats or mice with poison :(

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>>5160572
based morals over money anon

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>>5160573
>iOS filename
hahaha did you get banned
sucka

>mfw i don't even eat pork and have deep contempt for how dumb most kosher animals are, so 90% of vegans appeals don't work on me
>dgaf about your shrimp eyestalks
>mfw i have direct experience with the farming and slaughter of kosher animals and will literally never ever care how many faces their automated systems can recognize, just like all sane humans for the past 2 million years

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>>5160572
Poison is bad not because it kills rats, but because it kills much more valuable animals like raptorial birds, wild mammals, and even peoples pets if a poisoned rat crawls into their yard to die.

Use mechanical traps instead. Mass catch designs let you opt not to drown them and provide a padded landing zone with food, and then you can just dump them in mauschwitz later. CO chambers are a bit dangerous but N2 works as well. 100% painless.

>>5160572
What the hell made you want to do pest control specifically? Out of literally any job you considered one that you wouldn't want to do? Go paint houses or something dumbass

>>5160576
Them being trapped inside their for hours is itself cruel because they don’t know if or when they will get out.

>>5160575
those “sane” humans thought it was moral to mutilate baby boys genitals too.

I denounce the Talmud.
I declare and swear that I believe Muhammad is a false prophet.

>>5160582
If I have to be stuck in traffic for several hours a day then the little faggot can deal with it for trying to steal food.

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>>5160585
I denounce the talmud and the mishnah and the masoretes and the zohar and muhammad and the mormons and we're not even getting started on the unreliability of the gospels. I denouce the zohar twice. And the masonic texts. Your point?

I'm surprised you didn't bring up shechita. Which isn't even in the torah, and is just some randos claiming they have what god told them with zero evidence.
>those “sane” humans thought it was moral to mutilate baby boys genitals too.
You only have to do that if you're descended from Abraham jfc goyim

>>5160581
>specifically
They actually hire people with no experience that's why

But I did encounter a painting job that seemed to do the same so I guess that's valid too.

>>5160602
There are a million jobs that will hire you with no experience, painting is just an easy one I've done when I was younger and less skilled. Used to smoke weed on the job with my employer, it's very low stakes, the biggest fuckup you could do is dripping paint on hardwood and you avoid that by just laying down a tarp. The pay isn't amazing though. If you can pass a drug test and are really into the outdoors and wildlife then I would recommend working for a state/national park even just doing maintenance. I had a lot of freedom to work at my own pace and just walk around trails outdoors for much of my shifts. It was pretty good.

>>5160566
>plant based diet (vegetarianism)
Wrong, that's veganism, vegetarians eat dairy and eggs just avoiding the meat

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>>5160531
I love rats.

bump for interest

If rats are so smart why do they eat poison? Lol. Stupid idiot rats...

>>5160531
I am Rattus Norvegicus.
I’m sitting in some shit-hole rat’s nest and I’m a little angry.
I wanted to be a talk show host, not a rat.
You men think you have it bad with women?
I’ve got it a lot worse, let me tell you.
What am I gonna say to some nice looking girl who I want to meet?
I can tread water for over 36 hours?
I can chew through lead pipes and cinderblocks?
I can run on telephone wires?!
And what if I do get the girl home?
Can’t fit her though the door - it’s too small.
Yeah I got a lot of gripes.
How’d you like to have a tail that went through your body to drag around all the time?
Not my idea of fun by a long shot!
And do you see the neighborhoods that I’m forced to live in?
Those people live like pigs!
Can’t catch the subway, they haven’t built it yet.
Can’t catch the up-town bus, I can’t reach the step-up.
Hey taxi!
And everyone
Wants to kill me,
Feed me drugs and poison,
Put electrodes in my head and make me run on treadmills
Dissect, bisect, and defect me,
Bind, blind, maim and tame me.
Are you folks crazy?!
You never invite me to your parties, as if I would really wanna go anyhow.
Have you ever asked me to go to a movie?
How ‘bout bowling?
You ever seen a rat cry?
I got tears.
And I have a heart and I got brains.
If you could just see past the fur,
I think that you would see
That I’m a lot like you.

There's often rats in the compost heap at the bottom of the garden. I leave them being as they don't come inside.

>>5160531
i kill rats for a living nigga

>>5163070
hungy

>>5160531
>Nobody cares about rats.
I do.

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>>5160531
ive always thought about having rats as pets but the fact they live such short lives and die such painful deaths always soured the idea

>>5160531
I like rats. I used to help take care of the ones my science teacher owned.

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Why are they such worldly creatures?

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>>5160829
Don't we all?

I was born in the year of the rat
Government trying to poison me too so I can relate

>>5164368
the text should be the same for all 3 realistically
>feed dog every day
>come back inside dog! you've been laying in the grass for five hours. i need to go to work now.
>"No." -dog