Now that we know communist economics doesn’t work, why doesn’t it work?
>>62368620It's because the only people who want it don't want to work, they want to be party members. People who actually work like to own things and have freedom.
The market needs price signals for humans to trade. If you take away price signals then trade ceases to a halt.
>>62368620Collective action requires coordination, coordination requires leadership, leadership requires authority, authority raises power. Capitalism divides power among lots of little dictators, who can make life suck for the people under them but can’t mess things up too bad at the societal level. Communism centralizes all power at the state level which creates an unstoppable monster that makes life hell for everyone.
>>62368620free rider problem and normal human desire to be better than otherswhat we've settled on is hybrid communism. The very best compete with each other to get rich while the bottom 3/4 is on welfare.
WELCOME TO THE GRAND COMMUNIST CIRCUS Step right up, comrades! In today’s performance, everybody owns everything… which somehow means nobody can find toilet paper. HONK HONK.First act: The government confiscates the bakery to “help the people.” Five minutes later the shelves looking like they got raided by raccoons. But don’t worry! A man in a giant red suit appears yelling, “Production has increased by 9000%!” while standing directly in front of an empty store. Audience applauds nervously. Second act: The Amazing Disappearing Freedom Trick! One second you say, “Hey maybe this system ain’t working,” and POOF — now you taking an unscheduled vacation to a mysterious work camp somewhere cold enough to freeze soup solid. Incredible! Absolute cinema. Third act: Equality for all! Everybody gets the same tiny apartment, the same sad bread loaf, and the same mandatory portrait of Supreme Mustache Leader smiling at you from every wall like a haunted mascot. Meanwhile the party elites eating steak backstage talking about “shared sacrifice.” HONK HONK HONK.And the economy? Brother, the economy riding a unicycle on fire juggling potatoes. Every problem gets solved with another five-year plan written by twelve dudes who never touched a shovel in their life.Communism really be like:“We fixed greed!”creates a bigger greedy governmentPeak clown technology.
>>62368620It doesn't work because it is contrary to human nature. The original communist theorists understood and acknowledged this, but believed the problem could be overcome through using the new "sciences" of psychology and evolution to selectively breed a new type of human with a different nature that could live within communism. Similar to domesticating farm animals, where pigs are bred to be fat and docile instead of the murder machines that are feral hogs.Inherent in this theory, was the idea of culling undesirable phenotypes through gulags and mass murder. This part wasn't really promoted to the proletariat though, who were only told about the perfect world at the end.It fails because it requires direction by a force that is outside and above humanity to guide it. The controllers of the system are themselves part of the system. It requires the controllers to contradict their own corrupt nature instead of using their power to horde wealth and titcows for themselves. The system is supposed to purge greed and selfishness from the gene pool, but instead it rewards party members who game the system with greed and selfishness and works to death anyone who has the qualities they are trying to produce.It is impossible for a system that is contrary to human nature to succeed when it is operated by humans. It would have been impossible to produce domestic cattle if there were no farmer and the system was controlled by bulls. Any system controlled by its targets will not produce domestic animals, it will produce feral animals.
>>62368620/biz/, /pol/, /k/, /lit/, /int/, half of the boards have hourly threads about how stupid and terrible communism is. If it's such a terrible system that doesn't work why is 4chan a nonstop seethefest about it? I feel like it's just westoid cope about the fact that China is eating our lunch.
>>62368639It's impossible to stop price signals. There will always be trade. It's what society *is*.But one of Communism's problems is it makes all those signals go underground. It's like enforcing a rule that everyone has to speak backwards and without any vowels. There's going to be a lot of destructive miscommunication.
>>62368700china isn't communist by any stretch of the imagination.
>>62368706Why don't we copy everything they do then? If they're actually not communist then it shouldn't be a problem.
>>62368724americans would never put up with the level of extreme poverty the average chinese person enjoys
>>62368730Extreme poverty created by what? By capitalism? I'm confused.
>>62368736by a lack of sharing of resources.aka the opposite of communism.
>>62368736>I'm confused.I see that. You ask questions that indicate you have the mind of a child. You seem retarded.
>>62368740What the fuck are you talking about. Jesus no wonder so many of you /biz/ idiots got rugpulled by memecoins, you can't string together a coherent fucking thought.
>>62368750their rich class gets wealthier every year while their working class starves to death.the opposite of communism. You think it's productive because you're a paid china shill, but it's trash and everyone knows it.
>>62368620Are asking about communism? If so it's pretty simple, there's never "we own the production". Communist propaganda riddled millions of people into this wrong thinking.>WhyBecause 99% of jobs sucks.
>>62368724I kid you not but china literally copied/mimic most of America's finance system and institutions. That was their secret, not communism.
>>62368756>anyone who doesn't live in my schizo world is paid by the ChyneezeYour shift starts at 8 am sharp, get to bed wagie
>government acts as central plannerthere's your problem
>>62368769Which ones? Genuinely asking, I don't know about this.
>>62368620How does the government tell you where to work without owning you?
our working tools havent evolved to the level requires for communism
I found your issue OP
>>62368620Because nobody wants jews to plan anything.
>>62368700>If it's such a terrible system that doesn't work why is 4chan a nonstop seethefest about it?Because fucking retards like you continue to pretend that it hasn't been thoroughly trashed by all economic theory of all mankind's history>china is commieoh, i see, you're a direction brained retard who thinks there is only red team and blue team
>>62368786Stock market, wto, tech/labor transfer to china, china has bought a lot of us debt, yuan is depreciated in favor of us exports. The list go on...
>>62368883They don't tell, they force you into working, aka no freedom, but even china doesn't do that ... a lot ...
>>62368620In theory, a communist revolution would involve the working class rising up against the capitalist class. In practice, communism is mostly supported by petite-bourgeois nepo babies while the working class and capitalist class both like capitalism.
>>62368620The main cause is a lack of information, the central planners didn't have good info on supply & demand etc. As a consequence they misallocated a lot of resources, and the entire system became dysfunctional.It's kind of interesting, because with AI and with everything being computers and machines, you could - in the near future - generate the information and process the information.
>>62369522>The main cause is a lack of information, the central planners didn't have good info on supply & demand etc. As a consequence they misallocated a lot of resources, and the entire system became dysfunctional.No, they were retarded.> factory makes shoes> let's measure productivity by the ton (not even unit count)> number go up, good goy points and awards> factory makes one single size, largest> number go up, good goy points and awards> factory makes one single model, cheapest> number go up, good goy points and awards> everyone walks barefoot because there doesn't exist enough shoes> number go down, panic> factory makes all sizes and models, good shit> gets all exported because they're worth more now> everyone walks barefoot> number goes up, everyone should be happyAnd other kinds of retardedness. Like production per hectare only goes up, forever, dictated by pen and paper.
>>62368700Nobody talks about it until communist troons and fags come in and start shilling it.
>>62369729This is what i'm talking about, at scale it would be impossible to get the good information about productivity to the central decision makers.So they just used bad information e.g. determining productivity based on weight produced.But once again, with the advent of computers and AI, will make it possible to generate enough information, and make decisions based on that information, that communism could work.. Techno-communism.
>>62369793>AI hallucinations will surely make communism work this time.goddamn but communism really is the idology of the retarded. No wonder the peasants kept falling for it.
>>62368620Fails to take human nature into account. While I subscribe to the notion that "real communism has never been tried" (i.e it has always been co-opted by brutal authoritarian regimes), I still see it as a shit-tier ideology because equality is fundamentally out of line with human nature.Personally I think a system where we have a decided on wealth distribution curve (i.e the goal of the system is that the richest should earn a given factor more than the bottom 10% earners, for instance 100x) could work better.We have to allow high achievers to get on top of society, and there has to be consequences to underachieving, but by not stating a curve, in reality the rich now are on a factor of 1000000x richer than the bottom which is grotesque
>>62370018It doesn't take reality into account eitherIt supposes two facets that need to be fulfilled in order for communism to begin:>no material scarcity of any kind>no human invention or innovation because we've completed the universal tech treeIts literally impossible
>>62368620Because of entrenched Capitalism. Communism would work if people just let it work inatead of fighting it every step of the way. This was known though, Capitalists will never willingly hand over the fair share and distribute the means of production. The entire Capitalist system is built on exploitation and unfairness so that they can have more while everybody else has less.Progress is inevitable though. Eventually Communism is inevitable.
>government determines where people work>government doesnt own labor force?????????>government represents groupagainst whom? the government?you have to be lobotomize to even humor this nonsense for a second.
>>62371008And yet here we are in /biz/ in the current yearI miss when the internet was naturally gatekept by people with the competence to navigate it. Back when the setup and the punchline to the joke of communism was simply invoking the imagery, because everyone intrinsically knew it was a retarded system
Capitalism doesn't work long-term, doesn't matter how you try to organize it.
>>62368703>There will always be trade. It's what society *is*.Not really. There's this thing called genealogy, which had more profound effects on human behaviors than your faggy fiat ever will. You should look into it sometime.
>>62371008So let me get this straight you don't even understand the idea but it is everyone else who is, *checks notes*, lobotomize?Here let me try to break it down for you, maybe we can find some mutual ground. The government ORGANISES labour but it does not CONTROL it. You pick your job and career but somebody has to direct you to where the work needs to be done, get it? You can't just be a mechanic and start taking the first car you see apart at the side of the road. It still needs structure.Oh boy, you really are deep in the Capitalist quicksand when you can't even imagine positive representation without some kind of conflict. Scarcity is still a think ya know so people have to come to collective agreements about where we allocate scarce resources. That's representation.Also though, really? The ONLY thing you need protecting against is the government? Ever heard of UNIONS they are usually to protect the little guy from Capitalist exploitation not muh gubbermint. There sure are a lot of lawyers out there fighting cases against companies too. Oh but no way right? Only the gubbermint is a problem.
>>62371136didnt read
>>62368703Nobody believes in the anthropological horseshit/founder myth of, "They traded 2 chickens for 5 wheat! We have always had capitalism!" The heirs to real estate speculation and textile slave labor like Darwin and Engels wasted lots of time and effort trying to convince the world (and themselves) that what had happened in the 18th and 19th centuries was inevitable, natural, and therefore perfectly morally good.
>>62371172i think he has a point, that price discovery is real. but i also agree with you, that darwin et al. were begging the question. the natural state of man is to pool resources in small tribes, with tribes engaging in a mixture of cross-tribe resource pooling and trade.
>>62371156Why did I expect anything different. A typical enemy of progress. Doesn't know why they oppose progress and doesn't even know what it is and does not even want to know. Keep on kissing the boot that kicks you moron.
>>62368620Why do communists need a capitalist concept like money anyway if it's such an amazing system?
>>62371256A medium of exchange us useful, it streamlines resoucre values to 1 entity, in place of playing the game of "1 bushel of wheat vs every other product produced"On of the biggest benefits of money is this simplification of exchange into 1 standardized unit of value
>>62368620Game theory and thermodynamics
>>62371410And ill even give you a tip OP...the fact you even think communism would work in the first place means youve been gamed by someone or something.
>>62371377Why is there exchange happening if you have all powerful central planners? Shouldn't they be dictating where everything fits best for everyone?
>>62368620imagine having this question after the 20th centurylike imagine being actually retarded yet somehow able to string words together
>>62368669>but can’t mess things up too bad at the societal level.At the beginning, no. But the small fuckups accumulate and there's no chain of responsibility because every actor thinks he's in a bubble
>>62371136>The government ORGANISES labour but it does not CONTROL it. You pick your job and career but somebody has to direct you to where the work needs to be doneThis makes no sense because one of the two must be true1) The government is forcing you to work because he organizes the labour 2) It's literally the same system we already have where people pick jobs they want
>>62368620> why doesn’t it work?"Governement" = people working for the government workerspeople working for the government = retarded niggercattle who can't get fired no matter how incompetent they are
>>62368703Well said
>>62368620I think the problem is moral.They say that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. In large part I agree, there's a reason there was so much controversy when the USA was started about federalism and anti-federalism.Communism concentrates absolute power under the promise that this will eventually (two weeks) be reverted back to the people at the appropriate time. You would genuinely need someone with Christ-like qualities to see this through, ideally with multiple backups in case difficult personalities attempt to overthrow them with violence. Most commies don't even believe in objective morality, so this is basically impossible. Whoever gets in power will abuse it and positively refuse to give it up. The prospect of such power would be extremely difficult to surrender, regardless of whatever jargon you spew publicly.
Does anyone want answers and solutions or does everyone insist on trolling me and ignoring my posts.And then complaining about the people who have money or the people who have wealth.You say you don't have jobs, or want to make more money. But refuse the possible help available. Whether it's a capitalist, socialist, or communist system or not, do you want to have wealth or complain about the people who do?Do you want to complain about the people who are doing well with their investments and complain about insider trading. Or do you want to find your nvidia and spacex.All I see are a bunch of people constantly complaining and saying it's this or that and then refusing all options and solutions.Even when someone literally makes you the perfect best working investment money machine you turn it down and say it's impossible.It's your money, it's your opportunity people can't make you do anything you won't do if you don't want to.Does anyone actually want financial freedom?
>>62371192Stone Age cavemen and hunter gatherers only pooled resources because they had to. That goes away as soon as the necessity to do so does.
>>62368620Corruption>>62368695Sounds like in Brave New World where they breed retarded people to do menial jobs
>>62368624>People who actually work like to own things and have freedom.Lol. Communism if far from achieved. However, your counter argument is ridicule.
>>62368620>Now that we know communist economics doesn’t work, why doesn’t it work?90% of people don't mind being slaves.
>>62372672That last 10% can be a real motherfucker
>pooling resourcesWho gets to take what resource at what time? If there is nobody that decides (is the de facto owner) then how will you react to people just taking as much as they can get and leaving nothing to the rest?You cant escape private property the only thing communism does is steal it constantly.
>>62368620>Now that we know communist economics doesn’t work, why doesn’t it work?when workers seize the means of production, production doesn't continue, it stops
>>62368776It's this mostlyThe whole of Communist (esp. Soviet) economics hinges upon having a godlike administrator class who can see five years into the future with perfect foresight. Since this is impossible to begin with, and combined with the perverse incentive of meeting quotas that are raised all the time or you get gulag'd for wrecking, it's no wonder the admin class got all apathetic about it and nothing worked.>population needs meat>oh what's that? 1000 women's winter jackets in the height of summer instead? Ok fucking send it, I don't want a one way trip to Kolyma
>>62368695Literally the only person in the thread who understands what communism as an ideology actually is. Actual communists will come up with novels worth of "akshually, yeah, you're not wrong but we kinda solved this in ideological offshoot #2578 so as soon as we make the other 2577 sects of socialists/communists understand this everything will be perfect". Then you have Americans who conflate the word communist with literally everything they don't like.
>>62368620It doesn't allow for social mobility. Central planning is vastly inferior to markets regarding capital allocation. Centrally planned economies very quickly become inefficient and dysfunctional. Central planning promotes corruption inherently. There are many more reasons but these are the main ones. The reason communist nations have to forcefully keep people in is because it is apparent to hard-working honest people that they are better off leaving, it's a system of wealth distribution from the productive to the unproductive.
>>62368756The poor in China are actually getting richer every year, hence why they eradicated extreme poverty and the middle class is growing consistently. They also currently are under a socialist system with the end goal of eventually prospering enough to achieve communism through technological and societal advancement. Anyone can see the prosperity and societal changes first hand by flying to China year after year. The country has an extremely fast and impressive amount of growth.
From a purely economic viewpoint, centrally planned economies are impossible to successfully manage. They all end up with the worst possible outcome from the finite resources avalible. Most people fail to grasp the sheer amount of prices that must be looked after and adjusted to an almost fevered pitch just to produce basic goods. Instead the natural hand of the free market does this for them, if they would allow it. Instead they view it as the opposite because they have been subverted into the belief that if they can control price points, they will stop X from happening.
>>62368620
>>62368620this thread will rile up the communist spammers
>>62368700>have hourly threads/biz/ is not that lively>>62369785>>62369785
>>62368620This is a shill thread, but on the off chance there are real, genuine posters here who want to seriously understand how actual communist economy works from the source read this even if just for curiosity:https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1951/economic-problems/index.htm
>>62377716>actual communist economystarves its workers
>>62377716It's endlessly fascinating how communists can produce hundreds of thousands of words on any given topic but still fuck it up heinously in practise
>>62378841Pure coincidence. It cant be that there are any flaws in communist thinking right?
>>62368620The entire purpose of all living things is consumption.Even plants consume sunlight.All human activity is just abstractions of this basic principle.Commie slop doesn’t work because it’s a system where consumption (and production) is mandated top down.This creates a disconnect between the environment (state) and the rawest of natural impetuses (human consumption)The state essentially has to play catch up with the entire consumer appetite of their population or risk illegitimacy, forever.This is a task that’s almost impossible, even for a well managed state, so the state is always going to tempted to reach for the “you don’t need that” propaganda button with their populations.Because brainwashing you population to consume less is just waaaay easier than actually trying to keep up with fully unrestrained human consumption (and ambition).Every time some euro, american marxist, or thirdie, starts mocking consumerism i find it funny because that’s essentially their own pro-starvation training kicking in and they don’t even know it.They’ve been mentally prepared to accept less in their lives and don’t even realize it.But there’s only a point to where the propaganda still works. That’s usually when the commie system starts to break down.Capitalism can also fail if this consumption covenant is broken. When whatever work put in is cheated away and the participants don’t get the desired outcome of consumption tokens (money) for their effort. Though usually this happens at a decentralized scale so it’s resolved piecemeal.
