Forced garbage and character assassination to protect people that should had died 15 years ago.

>>153826851
Making Moira a mutant was so fucking stupid. Way to completely undermine the entire point of her character, dipshits. It's like a group made up of mostly queer folks, but their token straight ally friend turned to be gay too. Fucking oops.

>>153826851
It dosent make sense.
How there is so many stories in the future, if the timeline should be reseted if she dies?

the only usefull thing to do with this should be reset the Krakoa era out (as it didnt really matter), because now X-men comics are worst because after all that hapenned and mutants STILL cry about everything.

Garbage comic

>>153827295
>It's like a group made up of mostly queer folks, but their token straight ally friend turned to be gay too. Fucking oops.
Isn't that the plot of Gillen's Young Avengers run?

You're right about mutant Moira, it was fake and gay, and they went out of their way to avoid letting most of the non-Xavier characters she was close to ever react to any of this, nor trying to really explain why she wasn't dead in any real detail that would make sense, one line from Hickman wasn't cutting it.

It's not the real moira anyways, just sinister's clone

It's really lame that heros dont have normal people side caracters anymore.

they sundelly die or get powers for no reason.

>>153827493
>Isn't that the plot of Gillen's Young Avengers run?
Much to America's best efforts and dismay, Kate stayed straight.

>>153826851
it was pretty fucking stupid, all the timeline bullshit in this was dumb honestly.

It was good and interesting in a vacuum/self contained run not unlike Morrison's magneto but maybe not so much in larger canon

>>153827664
Speed didn't though. Hell, America Chavez herself was straight before that cursed run.

>>153827576
Comic writers are allergic to any sort of plot that doesn't involve punching, so everyone has to have powers now, or they functionally don't exist. Seriously, the decimation of the supporting cast is one of the worst things in modern comics.

>>153827493
Heaven for fucking bid we have a positive proof case that mutants and baselines CAN co-exist peacefully. Nah, give her powers because.

she's a robot now not a mutant

>>153827989
>sort of plot that doesn't involve punching, so everyone has to have powers now

And another problem... the fight dosent matter too, because anyone can punch anyone in comics now, there is no power scale.

>>153827780
But the token straight stayed straight. Everyone else was doomed from the start. Eli dodged a bullet but it would've been nice if he was there and Kate's boyfriend.

It was dumb. It also exists to make her a villain.

>>153830749
she already was for being a mutant lover

>>153826851
a lil of both

>>153826851
It was horrible. Classic Hickman

>>153826851
It was good, but now with Brevoort's era flopping badly, his defenders are trying all they can to try to say that Krakoa was le bad (the 11 volume omni series will be finished)

>>153827576
>It's really lame that heros dont have normal people side caracters anymore.

Because they’re just empty filler. They don’t serve any essential narrative purpose in modern superhero story. You can play mental gymnastics about “oh they’re adding humanity” or whatever the fuck all you want but when you can do without them entirely, they’re useless clutter.

Look at Spider-man and the Daily Bugle, outside of Jonah all the staff serves no purpose. Betty doesn’t have any reason to show up because Peter and her are not dating anymore. Robbie’s only purpose is to be moderate voice to Jonah, and you don’t need that anymore. Ben Urich? Don’t need him in modern day setting when you’ve got the Internet etc. for information.

The main problem with Moira also isn’t that suddenly X-men don’t have human allies. They still do, it’s just that unlike Moira they don’t really have much purpose or reason to show up. With Moira you at least had “”occasional “we need a scientist who isn’t Hank, get Moira on the phone” moment.

The issue was that she was fucking dead, the retcon is so nonsensical that it required you also to start retconning/handwaving away tons of old stories that wouldn’t make sense anymore and in typical Hickman “trust me bro it’s all part of the grand design” way none of it actually built to anything interesting as a result after all the teasing and barely using her in the main narrative. Her being evil was boring. The multiple lifetimes was boring.

>>153834128
>Krakoa was le bad
I liked the ending, but yeah it was. Really weird and off-brand, felt like some holdover from the time they were trying to force the Inhumans to be the new X-Men, would have fit them much better.

>>153834295
Krakoa as a concept is something that could have been interesting if you did it like Wildcats 3.0. Like if they had to take over Genosha that’s been recreated and try to make it work as a democracy where humans and mutants together try to co-exist but there’s all kinds of complex issues to deal with like the legacy of the apartheid system, wounds of the civil war, the genocide, rebuilding a destroyed nation, etc. But instead we got Hickman making everyone act like they’re in a brainwashed cult, all the Arrako garbage, etc. and it took until Gillen took over to make it even remotely feel like something actually okay was being done with the premise.

>>153827989
>plot that doesn't involve punching
literally the whole point of krakoa

Moira and Krakoa was good until he was had to write inferno as a forced wrap to everything he set up which he obviously couldn't do and it made no sense whatsoever.
Moira is scared of permadeath so she's some secret traitor planning to kill the x-gene. How does that make sense?? Why do it on Krakoa when they're winning instead of on Utopia when there were 200 of them left and extinction from Bastion looked entirely imminent. Emma gets told about her powers and immediately knows she's a traitor somehow and sends Mystique to kill her. Charles and Magneto act like retards and never think to ask why not resurrecting Destiny is suspiciously one of her literal two rules. They're still suiciding themselves against nimrod and omega to trying and save her at the exact time she's apparently been exposed since they're so completely clueless.
Hickman was obviously going to kill her at some point and retcom the entire thing at the end of a much shorter arc and when they got popular they realized that was going to go over like the dallas season 9.

>>153834213
>>153834213
>Because they’re just empty filler.

This mentality is why Marvel declined significantly in the last two decades

>>153834396
Arrako and X-men red was the only interesting thing happening out of it, and no Gillen ruined it by hijacking the entire thing to turn it into a giant solo story for his gay husbano Mr Sinister. Its not even an x-men story now, its a freaking sinister story about how awesome and intelligent and scheming he is and he almost won. It nearly exceeds doom wank. The x-men are just along for the ride and getting used and manipulated and character assassinated by his actions the entire time.

>>153826851
Bad. I feel like if any of the X-men had a human kid nowadays editorial would have them be retconned into a mutant in about a year or two.

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>>153828662
The robot was destroyed, now she's a powerless human safely tucked away in an alternate timeline heading in the opposite direction as everyone else.
>>153834521
Hickman's logic holes and small-minded AI doomerism deserved to be critiqued

>>153834213
>They don’t serve any essential narrative purpose in modern superhero story

So...when they became shit.

>>153826851
Gay and homosexual.

>>153837465
This panel acting like sinisters criticism is some kind of own falls flat when krakoa was destroyed by nimrod, and a sinister is literally part of orchis making mutant killing ai.

Xavier is bitching here out of despair because magneto just died and he thinks the island is on the verge of downfall despite his "compromise" to form a mutant nation as a defense strategy. He's only claiming its not what he prefers not that it wasn't necessary. The next panel he double down on continuing it. Again not a refutation or an own of any sort.

>>153837906
>krakoa was destroyed by nimrod,
He killed a few mutants (meaningless with the resurrection protocols, they all came back). They were defeated through extortion which resulted in the mutants getting sent into a portal Righteous diverted into the white hot room instead of Mars.
>sinister is literally part of orchis making mutant killing ai.
Gillen's point was that it's humans who make Artificial Intelligence bad. AI wouldn't necessarily be hostile in and of itself, and a truly evolved super-AI would be above violence.
>Xavier is bitching here out of despair because magneto just died and he thinks the island is on the verge of downfall despite his "compromise" to form a mutant nation as a defense strategy. He's only claiming its not what he prefers not that it wasn't necessary. The next panel he double down on continuing it. Again not a refutation or an own of any sort.
It reconciles "Why did Xavier suddenly 180 from everything he said before with Krakoa?" Moira tricked him into believing it was the only way by showing him her own biased-perspective. "We failed (fewer than) ten times" doesn't mean "We will always fail" but she chose to present it that way.

>>153838472
>Gillen's point was that it's humans who make Artificial Intelligence bad.
who cares, he needs to demonstrate it in the story then by showing a future where that is the case. Moira's strategy was based on surviving the next 50 years, and the immediate threat was again ai in the main timeline making her right.
>Moira tricked him into believing it was the only way by showing him her own biased-perspective.
again she was correct because a collection of the worlds greatest human scientist were already building a master mold around venus or whatever with international government support to finish off mutantkind, before they could recover from decimation and the terrigan cloud with the x-gene reignition. He wasn't tricked, his own experience informed the need and krakoa wasn't something moira saw in a future timeline.

>>153827664
She keeps turning her boyfriends bisexual, though

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>>153839132
>who cares, he needs to demonstrate it in the story then by showing a future where that is the case.
He did, by contrasting the Essex Dominion with the true Dominions who weren't constrained by instructions telling them they needed to retain the personality of one human in particular, forever stunting its ability to grow.
In Hickman's "Krakoa won" future, the X-Men won and then decided to go an AI genocide across the universe. Gillen understandably found this horrific and changed the circumstances.
>again she was correct because a collection of the worlds greatest human scientist were already building a master mold around venus or whatever with international government support to finish off mutantkind, before they could recover from decimation and the terrigan cloud with the x-gene reignition.
Any writer could come up with different ways of having the X-Men beat this without throwing away their principles.

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>>153834213
Chat was a mutant and she still grounded Peter plenty enough because she was just a normal girl in the grand scheme of things. She has powers but she isn't a superhero, but a girl who wants to go to school and date boys like any teenage girl.

>>153826851
Absolutely gay.

>>153840014
>Any writer could come up with different ways of having the X-Men beat this without throwing away their principles.
that isn't the story written so its outside the discussion of what was.

Dominions in real space eat advanced civilizations the only thing he retconned was sticking some of them outside of it. It has nothing to do with human influence.

>>153826851
It might very well be one of the dumbest things they've done

>>153834128
Krakoa was always shit, but it was new enough that people were willing to look past all the shitty parts because it looked like the X-men’s story was progressing for fucking once rather than keep getting stuck in the “oh woe is us we’re going extinct” bullshit they’d been in for decades. Now that we’re back to the same ass status quo as it always was, it only really serves as fanfic material since it ended up going fucking nowhere beyond the same tired ass “the X-men fight against yet more genocide of the muties” routine they’ve been doing for over two or three decades at this point.

>>153826851
I fucking hated that

>Hickman is leaving
>Moira becomes evil for no fucking reason at all
>somehow the show is supposed to go on as normal

>>153834213
>The main problem with Moira also isn’t that suddenly X-men don’t have human allies.

What kind of idiot cucks would still be allies with the mutants? They've just been amping up their replacement rhetoric to ever greater extremes over the years. Krakoa should've been the last nail in a coffin made up entirely of nails at this point showing that co-existence between humans and mutants is impossible. And even in post-Krakoa, the mutants are playing victim that their attempted global hegemony, conquest of Mars, and another ethno-state failed hard.

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>>153841262
It was Hickman who wrote the first data pages about Dominions. He himself stated they were categorically godlike and in control of time and space.

>>153834521
Both of those things are shit ideas. Everything outside of the basic concept of Krakoa, X-men teaming up with their villains and all mutants to build an ethnostate, was stupid and a waste of time. Moira, Arrako, the fucking future sentinel dominion shit, all of it was shit unnecessary and pointless compared to the core concept of building a racist mutant society and putting it against the rest of humanity.

>>153840014
>Pre-Maker 6160 Ultron became one of these things in the 61st Century.
Hmm...maybe he should have been the big bad of the new Ultimate Universe instead of 1610 Reed.

>>153841768
Krakoa was held together solely because of the on-demand resurrection and on-demand resurrection removes all of the physical stakes of mutant vs human conflicts. Without the alien demons and machines it would have to become a political thriller, which is apparently what Hickman wants to write given how Ultimate Spider-Man turned out, but that's not what people read X-Men for.

>>153841768
the mars stories are good, I dont care if you weren't interested in it cope.

>>153826851
Gay like all of Krakoa

>>153826851
I hated it from the start, and in hindsight I hate it even more. House of X would be a better story if it didn't have this Moira retcon bullshit. The Krakoa era would be better without Moira bullshit. And then Engima was just dumb.

>>153827391
This too. And how did the TVA, Immortus, Kang the Conqueror, The Living Tribunal, etc never notice or care?

>>153826851
What twist? I don't follow X-men, but I think I read some shit about Moira existing in every Marvel universe in the exact same capacity and proximity to Charles for some precise reason, or something. Don't remember the specifics or reason. How is that being a mutant? That's more being a lynchpin or universal constant of sorts.

It was shit and so was Krakoa. The preceding 10+ years of X-Men were also shit and so is everything that's come since.

>>153844974
Moira MacTaggeret, long human friend and ally to the x-men was secretly a mutant this whole time with the retarded power to rewind time when she dies.

>>153834213
>The multiple lifetimes was boring.
Also maybe don't tell everyone how awesome this book is right before stealing it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Fifteen_Lives_of_Harry_August

>>153834415
>that was going to go over like the dallas season 9.
Fun fact, Bobby's death was a canon plot point in Knots Landing they never bothered to smooth over

>>153840161
NEVER MENTION HER
SOME FUCK WILL PUT HER IN THE MOVIES AND RUIN HER FOREVER

The twist was the only good thing about Krapkoa really, that and Apocalypse getting jobbed out to a robot named a synonym for dumbass

>>153841615
>Krakoa should've been the last nail in a coffin made up entirely of nails at this point showing that co-existence between humans and mutants is impossible
Krakoa fallout should have caused a much bigger shitshow.
but I guess they wanted to move on asap

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>>153826851

>>153828662
Qrd?

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>>153849445

>>153849127
did she raped jean?

>>153849463
What the fuck? Moira is a T-1000 now?

>>153849577
It was payback for Bobby and a lot of other things. It was between the mutants. Real mutie shit.

>>153826851
I disliked it from the start because it didn't make any sense from what we already knew about Moira. And like >>153827391 and >>153844720 said it doesn't work with everything else that's been established. This would've been better off for 00s Ultimate X-Men or something.

>>153848175
>but I guess they wanted to move on asap
IIRC Buckley saw the writing on the wall, removed Jordan White from the X-line and placed Brevoort on it

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>>153849445
I think Mystique killed her and she became a cyborg somehow.

>>153826851
Good idea, great first few chapters, shit ending. Typical Hickman.

>>153840161
And the stories involving her usually relied on her using her powers to be useful to the plot

>>153834128
>but now with Brevoort's era flopping badly, his defenders are trying all they can to try to say that Krakoa was le bad
Both eras are bad. You people are just arguing over whether it's better to be dying of AIDS or cancer.

>>153841387
>because it looked like the X-men’s story was progressing for fucking once
>in a horrible direction that rejects the original premise of the book entirely
This happens every time there's a run that "progresses the narrative", and idiots eat it up every time.

>>153848054
>a robot named a synonym for dumbass
>it's that guy again
It's a Biblical reference you absolute moron, not a reference to a Bugs Bunny cartoon.

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>>153854703
>look out apocalypse, it's robo-retard!

>>153854715
Uh, he's not a retard, nimrod! He's a...

>>153827559
Seems like every top 10 anime betrayal in X-Men could be explained away in this manner.

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>>153854715
for me is worst that they killed Genesis to make the lammest version of Apocalipse.

bump

All Hickman giant plot twists are actually ass pulls. I don't understand why he has fans. He has this reputation as an incredibly intelligent writer, but his characters are just cold idiots. His plots rely on revealing things that don't make any sense if you think about them for a second. His characters lack utterly any personality they should have. He just fucking sucks. I'm glad he never got to write the Legion, he'd be having Brainy coldly sacrifice a Legionnaire every two issues. When it comes to the Emperor's New Clothes, Hickman isn't wearing any goddamn pants.

>>153857439
Back then we called killing popular characters smart

We weren't very smart ourselves

>>153850599
do yall read of what, she got cancer from sitting in krakoa no space so she got her consciousness transferred into a robot by arnab chakladar.

>>153826851
The twist, and the refusal to undo it, arguably ruined X-men comics.