Since everybody’s been talking about The Boys comic lately I wanted to know y’all thoughts on the prototype for The Boys, Bratpack by Rick Veitch. Known for his work on Swamp Thing.
>>153936832It's hard, because like you said they already did The Boys and Under the Red Hood. So you really can't do the story justice because any twist would pretty much seen coming.
>>153936832That ad scared me as a kid.
>>153936832Not a fan of Brat Pack.Maximortal is good.
>>153936832never read it I've only ever seen the OP pic
>>153936832Every reference to A Death in the Family should come packaged with Bratpack.
>>153937437>>153936832disliked it when i first gave it a read but as i got more context of its creation i gained an appreciation for it. characters are lacking though
>>153936832Easily the best "deconstruction," parody, and criticism of cape comics. No questions.
>>153938623That's because its just openly and completely mean about everything, it really does pull no punches and I can respect that.
>>153938646It's not self-masturbatory like the Boys is either.
I read it recently and it felt a bit like wasted potential, but at the same time, it said everything it needed to say. It didn't really need more chapters to get the picture, and leaving things up to the reader's imagination helped. Honestly, all the extra material ruins it for me; the retcons in the Omnibus and the Maximortal just throw a wrench into the original story.
>>153936832I don't get the praise. I understand it's invoking Seduction of the Innocent and Death in the Family but it comes off to me as immature seething and pearl clutching.
>>153938862>the retcons in the Omnibus and the Maximortal just throw a wrench into the original story.What retcons? Maximortal coming back to kill all the "heroes" and destroy the comic to get the necessary energy to become real? I read it like 15 years ago
>>153938986I felt that making the heroes explicitly evil and directly involved in their sidekick’s death missed the point. Turning Dr. Blasphemous into someone who was just trying to warn and save the kids also didn’t make much sense to me.What I liked was the version where the “heroes” were warped and corrupt, yet still genuinely believed in their own sense of justice. They did terrible things because they thought it was necessary to preserve that ideal. In contrast, Omnibus seems to frame their actions as being driven more by money and profit for their own sake, rather than seeing profit as simply a requirement to keep their vigilantism going.I preferred Blasphemous as a deranged villain who, despite feeling real sympathy for the kids, genuinely believed the best thing was to put them out of their misery and make an example of them — to dissuade anyone else from following the same path.
>>153938898lolthis isn't the boys
>>153936832Overrated
>>153939749but enough about watchmen
>>153939262>!No, they were still terrible. They only kept the kids sidekicks because they needed the money to fund themselves in the original.!<
>>153939262No, they were still terrible. They only kept the kids sidekicks because they needed the money to fund themselves in the original.
>>153939262I had no idea there ever was an ending where the heroes didn't off the sidekicksI've talked about that to people with no idea it was a retcon, I'm a fucking retard
>>153936832Veitch is a madman. Maximortal is an interesting series.
>>153938623>>153939785The best is still Watchmen.
>>153940415lol, no
>>153936832The original printing was short, sweet and to the point (the sidekicks exist only to die dramatically for marketing reasons and the heroes know and don't care). Released before capeshit fatigue was a thing.The second printing retconned the villain, fellated itself philosophically and leaned hard into leading into the unnecessary Maximortal series. Avoid.
>>153940415Honestly no it isn't because Veitch had the presence of mind to keep it short and sweet
>>153939262This anon gets it. The moment Veitch starts to get high on his own supply it becomes self-parody rather than genre parody.
>>153940650>>153938862>>153939262Where can I read the original version?
>>153936832Having never read the comic, I do really like the tagline of "Live Fast. Love Hard. Die with your Mask on." I get the feeling it's one of those things that's supposed to be part of the subversion and I'm not supposed to like but I do. It just has that "Go out swinging" attitude that I like.
>>153940695On whatever site you use to read regular comics. If you want physical the separate 5 issues version is relatively cheap and easily findable
>>153936925You could do Brat Pack, but you'd need to go full reconstruction and humanize the characters and give it a more optimistic ending.Think of Venture Brothers, which started out as yet ANOTHER mean spirited "fuck you Johnny Quest" mockery but evolved into a loving tribute to not only the character but to the boy adventurer genre
>>153936925>Under the Red HoodNow that's a good onecompletely ruined because bruce's conclusion is absolute bullshit
This shit is lame and gay.
>>153940896>Now that's a good one>completely ruined because bruce's conclusion is absolute bullshitExcept Under the Red Hood is a terrible story.
>>153941178the comic washttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKElX01nNH0
>>153936832I liked The One more.
Batman being Hugh Hefner but actually gay and the Bunnies all being dead serious Mensa-level operatives when the cameras weren't on them was a great twist. Wonder Woman telling her sidekick the semi-living costume was disease/pregnancy blocking and a sex toy was frightening.The progression of an effete, intellectual sidekick to Punisher into a mindless, hateful roidbeast identical to his predecessor was just depressing but that's the fucking point.
>>153941193But the movie isn't that much better because it's the same story.
>>153941269I'm horrified to say the cartoon version of Hush was less retarded than the source material.
>>153941269bruce doesn't cut jason's fucking neck open to save joker
>>153941281wasn't that universally panned one?
>>153941281>>153941294Alright, tell me what the strengths of UTRH are as a story.
>>153941316>consequences for Bruce using a child soldier>Jason's solutions are perfectly valid and come from an understandable place>Bruce's best answer is he's too weak of a person to stop himself from becoming a mass murderer>Jason's anhero decision still makes logical sense as everyone who would be a mass murdering criminal psycho, including him, would die>Joker survives and Bruce is alive while Jason is presumably dead, changing absolutely nothingIn short, Jason was right
>>153936832Want the boys done right? Try "The Mighty" and "The American Way"
>>153940552lel, yes>>153940667Brat Pack has very little going for it. Watchmen has a lot.
>>153941434like?I thought so
>>153941371>>consequences for Bruce using a child soldier>>Jason's solutions are perfectly valid and come from an understandable place>>Bruce's best answer is he's too weak of a person to stop himself from becoming a mass murderer>>Jason's anhero decision still makes logical sense as everyone who would be a mass murdering criminal psycho, including him, would die>>Joker survives and Bruce is alive while Jason is presumably dead, changing absolutely nothing>In short, Jason was rightLet's see what Judd Winick, the writer of UTRH has to say about that. >That said, and I'm trying to make this clear, Jason may not be a Bad Guy with capital letters, but he is a bad guy and he does bad things - killing people isn't a good thing - and he also subscribes to the school of, if you want to make an omelet, you have to break some eggs [laughs] Some people who may be innocent or in that gray area could definitely get hurt, and I don't think he has a problem with that. He's also tends to be petty and that's when he gets vengeful. I think that just goes back to his character or lack of character. Or, at the end of the day, what has motivated him up until this point, is pretty much that he is struck to the bone that he doesn't think Bruce [Wayne] loves him. That's what the end of the Red Hood arc was about. He didn't feel that Bruce loved him enough because of the Joker.Okay, what can we take from this? That Jason was in the wrong; he doesn't care about Gotham City and its people; this was never about taking Bruce to task for his failures as a parent. No, it was because Jason didn't think daddy loved him enough. :(
>>153941446>Let's see what Judd Winick, the writer of UTRH has to say about that.And?Erik Kripke thought Homelander was a suitable Trump analogy
>>153941459>And?And he's right. People, very STUPID people, like UTRH because of the spectacle. But under scrutiny, it falls apart as a Batman story because Judd Winick is a very mediocre writer. He doesn't adhere to continuity; he doesn't care about Jason as a character because, despite being the titular character, the climax is all about the Joker and Batman's code, and shows no depth as a character since all he does is just troll Black Face. Jason in UTRH is less complex than he was in 1988.
>>153941444
>>153941591OH MY GOD A FUCKING NUKE ALLUDINGTHIS IS SO FUCKING DEEEEEEP MAAAAAAN
>>153941591>this is what qualifies as high brow in comic circlesgod i fucking hate this industry
>>153941459It was pretty damn clear in the story's own words that Jason only gave a shit about getting Bruce to say "I'd do anything for you, son, even killing the Joker">"Ignoring what he's done in the past - blindly, stupidly disregarding the entire graveyards he's filled, the thousands who have suffered, the friends he's crippled...! You know, I thought... I thought I'd be the last person you'd ever let him hurt. If it had been you that he beat to a bloody pulp, if he had taken you from this world, I would've done nothing but search the planet for this pathetic pile of evil, death-worshiping garbage... and send him off to hell!">"Batman: No! God Almighty, no. It'd be too damned easy. All I've ever wanted to do is kill him. A day doesn't go by when I don't think about subjecting him to every horrendous torture he's dealt out to others, and then...end him. But if I do that... if I allow myself to go down into that place... I'll never come back.">"Why? I'm not talking about killing Penguin or Scarecrow or Dent. I'm talking about him. Just him. And doing it because... because he took me away from you."The entire irony being that Batman refuses to off the Joker because he is trying too hard to honor Jason's past heroism and subsequent death by sticking to his code despite wanting so badly to make an exception, which Jason interprets as Bruce considering his death less important than his mission ONLY because he feels that his father should have been willing to do anything to avenge his death on the clown up to and including break his own moral code.So yes. The entire thing was about Jason Todd going on a rampage because he was angry and sad daddy didn't love him enough. His own words.
>>153941609Crazy, isn't it?There are thousands more little nuggets like that woven in the story and art.>>153941626What are you talking about? It's a superhero comic.
>>153941658>woven inwoven into
>>153941632nonsebsebatman cant kill the joker because he sells too much
My half-sister was really into Bratpack and the Boys so I would borrow them. Bratpack feels like a thinly veiled guro/BDSM comic
>>153941726>batman cant kill the joker because he sells too muchSee, if Judd Winick was a good writer, he would have accounted for it, and circumvented Joker geting killed by giving Jason and Bruce a victory over Joker.
>>153941609Shut up, I think it's cool
I read the comic, but right at the end, for some reason, the last few pages of the last Chapter are missing from the sites i found . Could someone provide a link to the ending or even upload the last few pages?Also what is Maximortal ? Bratpack has sequels/pequels.
>>153942020Yes. You lack the intelligence to see how shallow this type of "storytelling" is.
>>153942303It's a neat little reference, part of a series of events that lead to the birth of Doctor Manhattan, which changes the world drastically. That whole issue is great.
>>153936832The prototype for The Boys is Marshal Law.
>>153936832What if it was called Brappack
>>153936832Never read it because I've read enough from him to know Rick Veitch was a hack.
>>153936945You weren’t born yet.
>>153944464What have you read?
Is this thing on? I said what if it was called Brappack
>>153936832I like that Veitch is planning on finishing the series but the print on demand quality is pretty crappy. Also ENOUGH with the boomer nostalgia stuff not every character has to be a reference to a celebrity or underground cartoonist.Yeah I get that Maximortal had some meta elements but it wasn't so overwhelming in the beginning.
>>153941632the main problem with jason is the main problem with every other supe that kills i.e the punisher. its that they are never allowed to kill big hitters and if they do, they always come back. jason ever since his revival has not taken out one of batman, green arrows, superman's, or other hero's big bads. this guy only offs goons and low level crooks, he's a huge bum when observed from an outside view. the guy offs some crook who needed cash to pay rent but cant deal with bane or 2face. actual bum
>>153944524Swamp Thing, The Maximortal, Heartburst, TMNT The River.
>>153945127Well, in Punisher's defense Scourge was the guy who killed Z-List Supervillains, Frank stuck to Franking mobsters. I agree it would have helped Red Hood to 'feed' him a few Z-Listers as well, preferably ones who used gadgets so that if another writer wished to use the bad guy, it could be easily handwaved away as just a different guy.
Wish somebody would storytime it
>>153939585>>153944513Eat shit
>>153940415I don't think watchmen is much of a deconstruction , Miracleman and "whatever happened to the man of tomorrow" felt more about one.Some of the ideas of watchmen are cinical and "heroes in real life" but other felt almost a reconstruction of the genre like the antagonist in the end being scared of his plan will work or Manhattan being surprised that he didn't predict the future.
>>153945308It's cause only hacks like Red Hood.Morrison understood, he kicked off Batman and Son by killing The Spook, a character they knew no one would ever want to resurrect.Meanwhile Jason's writers want him to be a very special boy who fights Joker and Penguin and Deathstroke and Ra's al Ghul and fucking Trigon.
>>153945606I like Red Hood, but then again my only exposure to him was the movie.
>watchmen is best!>bratpack is best!>what if super heros but evil!!Lol the best of a shitty idea is still shit.
>>153936832When I noticed most of the failings of the Suoerheroes were based on assertions made in Seduction of the Innocent, it lost a lot of it's punch.
>>153936997neither is good
Brat Pack is okay on its own, but there is a reason it isn't mentioned as much as other deconstruction comics. It's just not deep
>>153945400And I wish someone would tell me an alternative to readcomiconline
>>153944513I'm 40
>>153945529None are deconstructions. Deconstruction involves analysis and dissection, but these are all stories.
>>153945169The One and Greyshirt: Indigo Sunset are better.
>>153941434>Watchmen has a lot.I read both when each came out. WM is mostly carried by Dave Gibbons elevating exceptionally mediocre dialogue and his layout parlor tricks (e.g. >>153941591). It reads like a guy from Northamptonshire trying to pretend he understands American culture, asking the same stupid question every AD2000 refugee did: "BOT WOT EF NATURALISM IN CHILDREN'S GENRE," nearly a century after naturalism had been rejected in literature for exactly the same reasons we've come to hate it in cape books. The most BP in its original incarnation asked was "can these new kids escape the same fate since they're different to begin with" while showing them being molded into clones of their predecessors until they also know too much and have to be disposed of. But there's an actual STORY there not self-absorbed shit.
>>153946699No one in comic books agreed with Wertham, that's the irony here. They're all fucking degenerates in the most direct sense of the term, from the heroes to the cross between Bob Kane/Walt Disney and if you can read Brat Pack without recognizing how much Ennis cribbed from it I don't know what to tell you.
>>153948291>naturalism had been rejected in literature for exactly the same reasons we've come to hate it in cape booksWhich are?>But there's an actual STORY there not self-absorbed shit.Watchmen has multiple actual STORY threads.
>>153936832It's more interesting than entertaining. I give props to Veitch for being the first guy to say to the pros, the industry and the fans "What the fuck is wrong with you?" about the voting so Robin lives or dies promotion which was the impetus of the whole thing. The original ending is obvious but it at least it's an ending. The TPB ending was retconned into his Maximortal stuff which is just a meandering deconstruction of Superman and comics history although it's one of the first ones and again it's at least interesting as opposed to the modern "Superman...but evil'. I just wish Heartburst got more attention.
i read the first 5 volumes but i think the omnibus ahs more stuff, is that right?
>>153949539>Watchmen has multiple actual STORY threads.nonot really
Not enough of you have read The Nazz and it shows.
>>153951709Well anon we are talking about RICK Veitch and not his brother TOM Veitch
>>153952483Well maybe you should be!
>>153951709I kinda liked it. Not as much as The One or stuff like Watchmen, but I'll usually give any Talbot comic a read.
>>153938623Yeah that's tiktok's opinion, anon. What's yours?
>>153952733cringetok thinks bratpack was kamela's running team
>>153940376I don't know if I'm prepared for Stardust the Super Wizard With Dicks Out
>>153938610>context of its creationYou mean there's more to it than venting about comic sidekicks in general and Jason Todd in particular?
>>153948291>BOT WOT EF NATURALISM IN CHILDREN'S GENREu wot m8?
>>153951057Fantastic argument boomboom.
>>153953505Still would.
>>153936832so they had retcons in the onimbus?
>>153957841Small details were changed along the way an then he wrote completely different ending.
