There's really nothing you can do to make the Robin concept not fucking weird.
>>154136890Make Robin a girl Batmans fucking.
>>154136931this make her a sexy asian hebe with a tightass acrobatic body
>>154136890Just treat him like "Tails" that Sonic does.He acts as a chauffeur or personal assistant, and only fights in self defense.
what if you give robin a giant robot
>>154136963Tails is gay as hell
>>154136890easymake him a girlanyone who still thinks it's creepy is someone you do not want to be liked by.>>154136963Tails too. Tails was gonna be a girl, and always should have been. They have a romantic song at the end and everything, as Tails rescues him.'tagalong kids who idolize an older guy and wanna be by his side always' is basically the platonic ideal of a female. That's why they invented Amy in Sonic CD, which was essentially "What if we took all the same ideas we had at the beginning of Sonic 2, but made them awful and clunky"
>>154136983this anon is right, people were near constantly making jokes about Sonic and Tails in the exact same vein of Batman and Robin jokes.
>>154137011I always thought Tails would be stupid cute as a girl when I was a kid. I think I even thought he was a girl for a while.
>>154136983Tails exists so Sonic can offload his brainpower to focus on the villain. Otherwise he would be OP as fuck if he was both smart and fast. Kinda like another broken character...
>>154136890>grayson's already a skilled acrobat who not only can keep up with bruce, but is able to stand out on his own with his own skills >he also feels the same rage bruce does >if bruce chooses not to accept grayson, grayson would still go out on his own and probably get himself killed>if bruce keeps him, he at least gets to watch over him and train him>bruce chooses to keep him so grayson doesn't die on his owni dunno, the way the comics do it already works well enough. it makes enough sense to me more importantly, why are we bothering about what's "normal" about batman? he's a guy who lost his parents at a young age and spent most of his life dedicated to stopping crime as a result. a lot of stories focus on how abnormal bruce's life is and how he's wasting away the possibility of a "normal" life because he's obsessed with stopping crime. that's like 1/2 of alfred's dialogue with him. grayson is a good medium, he helps bruce soften up a bit while allowing him to still perform his duties as batman
>>154137031a lot of people did.if I ever get to make my own sonic, god knows 10 or 11 people have, to varying degrees of success (usually they go the Penders route and exaggerate everything awful about the '98 redesign), it will definitely be a cool teen and a loli tagging along with him.>>154137510it works best when Robin is sticking behind, setting up traps, acting as a distraction (but never a .. what do you call it, when you throw somebody out to be the target. when you commission a leeroy jenkins. whatever), running point/lookout, and doing acrobat stuff (and fitting into tight spaces)not 'hey let's send this 9 year old up to punch guys in the jaw. he's trained enough'
>>154137043CW Barry is a dumbass.
>>154137569Does Honey the Cat count as that? I don't think she's like, a little kid or anything, but she's certainly got the aesthetics.
>>154136890Make him his actual son, and make him bulletproof. Oh yeah, and give him pants.
>>154137633So Damian?
>>154137641No, Damian's a cunt.
>>154137661Dunno what you want, man, it more or less fits your description (give or take bulletproof depending on the uniform).
>>154136952Why are you the way that you are
>>154136890He's a kid sidekick. Basically it's extended take your son to work day/when fathers have their sons help them with their trade to learn how to do it so they'll take up the family business or at least pick up some skills that can carry him through whatever he does in life. But most people were too aware of the idea of a sidekick to be willing to fully think about why it happened or why it works.They either defaulted to it being a faggotry/pedo-fag thing, talked about how dangers and irresponsible it was, or just accepted it and thought nothing else about it because it's been around for so long.One of the things that needed deconstruction and they never really explored it.However if it was Batman and the sexy nubile technically legal emotionally vulnerable Asian girl with daddy issues cassandra cain was his side kick and they would frequently dissapear for days at a time....you know, for training.Yeah I would get suspicious.The gal friday of a hero is something that should be explored more because well..there's a want for it with the audience. But modern hollywood always defaults to bitchy karen that constantly complains and slows the plot to a crawl or she's actually MORE competent then the male hero etc but she's kept back because it's a mans world/le ebul patriarchy or some such bullshit. It's boring.Anyway, the power dynamic really flips the skirt of the female audience and when played straight and heap on the sexual tension or it slips into a unspoken partnership type deal it becomes very popular.
>>154137765Some people are just based
>>154136890It’s a holdover from a more innocent time
If I'm a thug and something half my size in hi vis colors starts bounding untouchably around me, laughing at its own jokes and cutting my hamstrings, probably I'd think that was a demon.
>>154136890The Robin concept only feels weird because the tone is all over the place. Dick and Tim fit a lighter, more adventurous Batman where Robin is just part of the fun. Jason and Damian fit a darker, more grounded Batman where being Robin is actually dangerous and has consequences. Trying to fit all four under the same Batman is what makes it weird. Split them into two continuities, one lighter with Dick and Tim and one darker with Jason and Damian, and the whole concept makes a lot more sense.
>>154138290I always felt that Robin right from the beginning in the Golden Age was drawn and portrayed like some kind of imp, I don't know if that constant creepy grin was intentional or not but being some kind of trickster demon always is how he came off in those days when he wasn't tripping over his own feet
>>154136890>There's really nothing you can do to make the Robin concept not fucking weird."Hey kids what if you could hang with Batman, your favorite superhero".That was the concept. Comics were for children./co/ like exaggeration and shitposting like Bratpack which was based on "Seduction of the innocent" which is a fucking weird read, essentially a /pol/tard rant is what makes this weird because it is frame as a fetish because the respective authors were some odd fuckos.
>>154138443>The Superman type of comic books tends to force and super-force. Dr. Paul A. Witty, professor of education at Northwestern University, has well described these comics when he said that they "present our world in a kind of Fascist setting of violence and hate and destruction. I think it is bad for children," he goes on, "to get that kind of recurring diet ... [they] place too much emphasis on a Fascist society. Therefore the democratic ideals that we should seek are likely to be overlooked.">Actually, Superman (with the big S on his uniform — we should, I suppose, be thankful that it is not an SS) needs an endless stream of ever new submen, criminals and "foreign-looking" people not only to justify his existence but even to make it possible.Fredric Wertham was the Alan Moore of his time.
>>154136890>>154138443if the dark knight made it work without looking silly, i am sure these adult batman comic/films could too, it's just skill issue
>>154136931>>154136952FUARK!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>154136890The concept is fine, it only becomes weird thanks to the demand of making Batman realistic.Robin should be no weirder than Shonen manga having 10 year olds fight bad guys. Because those are the same audience that was initially targeted
>>154138703well then your problem goes back as far as the late 80's because even Gordon said the concept of Robin was insane
>>154136890Easy. Just never progress past Dick. Dick works because he's got a backstory that shows why he wouldn't have a regular life or family connections while also being naturally suited for the job and there's even a reason Batman would do it (because he was a victim of the same crime as him.)Once you take Dick out of the Robin role everything falls apart.
>>154136931Thats just Batgirl, isn't it?
>>154137569Dick was like 12-14 when his parents died and around 16 when he fights crime with Batman.
BTAS already fixed him. He was a grown ass man, his costumes had pants, and he lived at college.
>>154138779So? Batman debuted in the 1930's. That's after almost 50 years of Batman and Robin when a bunch of psueds decided to be dumb.Batman debuted in Detective Comics # 27, Dick debuted in Detective Comics # 38. Batman barely got 11 issues, less than a year of story before the creators decided: "O.K. this guy needs something to spice him up." It's even more egregious when you realize those first few issues he was sharing a magazine with other pulp heroes so if you added up all of his pages its actually more like he got 3 issues of story before they had to come up with Robin. And as soon as they did? He immediately skyrockets in popularity, gets his own title, and a film serial adaption of the adventures of Batman AND Robin going on to become one of the most iconic and popular fictional characters of all time across all forms of media. Batman has always needed a Robin, and that Robin has always been Dick Grayson.
>>154137043And even then Tails is further nerfed because at the end of the day he's an speedster by virtue of being able to keep up with Sonic and having the brainpower of someone like Eggman
>>154138964Everyone can keep up with if not exceed Sonic. Remember when Robotnik outran him?
>>154139004Thing is, someone that can keep up with Sonic plus is equal to the smartest person on the setting, who on the regular builds machines that make Sonic sweat like Metal Sonic, has nothing preventing him to further enhance his capabilities. Like, remember how in SA1 he had jet shoes that allowed him to fly fast as fuck and break the level? Yeah there's no reason for him no not do that again, maybe even worse, like I dunno, making something like an Iron Man suit. Tails could just bulild some wacky shit for real, I feel there's no limit ever since he made a fake Chaos Emerald that works as fine as the real thing
>>154136890Make them kiss
>>154136890>guy takes in orphan>teaches him to martial arts and detective shit>helps him solve his parents murder and they fight crimeNothing really weird there, why would you see that as weird?
>>154136963>He acts as a chauffeur or personal assistant,alfred
>>154136890Just make him a 15/16 y/o teenager at the youngest and give him a suit that isn't fruity as hell. It's not that hard
>>154136890It's easy to not make Robin Weird.You just need to remember that Wertham, the guy that came up with the "gay teenagers fantasize about being Batman and Robin", was a lying coward who was afraid of saying that gay teenagers fantasized about Namor instead
>>154136890>Take in 10 year old orphan>Put him in uniform that exposes his peachy legs while you're dressed in full kevlar>Expose him to all the dangers of vigilante crime fighting>Sleep in the same bedBased batman.
>>154136890It stopped being weird with Jason and Tim. The former is his son, and the latter is his hire.
>>154136931This is exactly what I have for a fancomic I want to do. Both Batman and Robin are older teens/young adults with Robin being an orphan turned street gang member who Bruce saves from an untimely death. Robin joins Bruce in fighting crime and the two eventually fall in love. Dr Hurt eventually kills Robin but she returns as Red Hood, but with a familiar clownish face underneath the mask.
>>154137678Damian being a cunt is kinda Robin-ish. He just lacks the thing Dick(who was goofy) and Jason(who was a literal goblin that he even made a troll face) didBut then again, Tim was not like that and he ended up being the most popular Robin, to the point he outsold Batman with a miniseries.
>>154137011oh fuck, that explains the Dragon Ball parallels then, Tails is Bulma!
>>154138342is the guy on the left wearing a dashiki?
Sure there isJust don't be a weirdo pedophile cunt and it's fine.
>>154139565>Dr Hurt eventually kills Robin but she returns as Red Hood, but with a familiar clownish face underneath the mask.Sounds lame and gay
>>154136890The Arkham games where they aged them up to be jacked shs age-freshman year guys instead of pre-teens and pimply 15 year olds.
>>154138290>>154138342I kind of assumed they were going for an elf/trickstee vibe with o.g Robin, him being a kid using shit like slingshots and staffs helps too.
Is there anything batman can do to stop his rogue gallery from testifying in court that he fucks robin.What retort would he have
>>154136890Dressing up like a Bat to punch Clowns is weird, if you're adverse to weirdness Gotham is not your scene. Go be a Normie in Central City.
>>154136890Movies have already solved this; you just have to transform him into an adult.
>>154141088Those guys are all crazy, no jury in the world would believe this type of accusation.
Comics are weird by nature. Let them be weird.
>>154139555Arguably Jason is the weirdest one. Bruce only took him in and made him Robin because he had empty nest syndrome and missed Dick.
>>154136963You do know that changes nothing right? The guy who came up with sonic and tails sees them as a couple
>>154136890Kid sidekicks were the norm, because it was media primarily targeted at children. It's only weird that none of the others had any staying powerOK maybe not that weird
>>154136890It would be fine if DC either stopped pretending to be "realistic" and toned down the edge or embraced that Bruce is a fuck-up who raises child soldiers because Gotham is too far gone. Being in its infant stage, DC is trying to have both, as usual.>>154137661Like his father.
>>154136963>Just treat him like "Tails" that Sonic does.Robin doesn't deserve that.
Unfortunately child soldiers go hard in fictional stories.
>>154139576>Dick(who was goofy)Gotham and the nature of their adventures was goofy. There was a shift in tone over the years.>Tim was not like thatHe was a jerk too. Being an arrogant brat and a daredevil is part of being Robin, but they all come out with a different vibe.> Dick > cocksure> Jason > punk-rock>Tim > nerdy jerk> Damian > haunty elitistArguably you can tell Dick and Jason know they're good and love to troll, but Tim and Damian are the ones who need to let everyone know why you suck.
>>154136890(You)'re the one making it weird..
>>154141779>child soldiersGo back to troondit
>>154136890Can’t avoid it being “weird”, but kid sidekicks work great in a Pulpy Medium.Think like Carrie Kelley.Lives in a dystopia. Parents are druggies who don’t notice when she disappears from home after a month.Naturally she joins Batman’s “gang” looking for an excuse to beat up hoodlums in her city next to the older man she admires/crushes onWhen you treat Batman as the weird vigilante gangviolence thing it is, weird Robin fits right in.>>154136963>and only fights in self defenseThis was what RUINED Tails. And mind you it was only done to artificially try and make Sonic look cooler.It would ruin Robin even harder, if he weren’t allowed to fight anyone so only Batman could be cool
>>154138779Exactly the point, the 70s and 80s was when "muh realism" started getting into comic books and guys like O'neil were trying to bring back the "dark and gritty" of the very early batman comics.
>>154136931That is equally weird.>>154139555> Millionaire keeps adopting a new boy after the previous one grew up.>All three of them look alike
>>154138963Whitney Ellsworth was the editor who decided to kiddify Superman and Batman. That was likely the right call financially, not so much when it comes to creativity.
>>154142545Frank Miller is le heckin' Reddit!!
>>154141578Robin was literally the trendsetter for this, it was not the norm before.I'd argue the reason it survived when others didn't is because he's an independent character. His origin, his costume/identity basis(Robin Hood, not the bird initially), his personality, all sets him apart from sidekicks who were just small versions of the hero
>>154144291No, tard
>>154140996Making Robin as tall and buff and looking older than Batman isn't a fix, it just looks even more ridiculous. This Robin looks like he did a stint in the joint.>>154141245It was two movies, both of which were clowned on for being really homoerotic, and had people ask why Bruce would take a 19 year old as a ward without it being a gay thing.
>>154143955I disagree.
>>154143955True, also Bill Finger also approved it cuz he was getting sick of Batman killing.The only that that disagreed was Bob Kane but who the fuck cares about him?
>>154142545How else would you call these children literally being brought into the war against crime?
>>154138847Despite was Silver Age fags think, Robin didn’t become an interesting concept until Post-Crisis.
>>154137011Sonic 2 and Sonic CD were literally the same product being made by two different teams. Only the CD team went all the way through with the original concept.The idea was Sonic going on a time travel adventure with a female sidekick and they have to fight a robot Sonic at some point.
>>154136890You, your parents and arguably your grandpappy would not have even heard of Batman if Robin hadn't shown up. So please, a little respect for the contribution to pop culture if not the premise.
>>154141483lmao fuckin wot?
>>154137854>Basically it's extended take your son to work day/when fathers have their sons help them with their trade to learn how to do it so they'll take up the family business or at least pick up some skills that can carry him through whatever he does in life. There's been a strong, concerted effort to destroy fatherhood in Western society and so we don't get to have this anymore.
>>154136931>>154136952That's just as weird.
>>154136890I like how Miller handled it in TDKR.
>>154136890It only works with Silver-era type of stories
>>154146730The Boy Scouts of America used to have a Junior Deputy Sheriff program where minors could be officially deputized as law enforcement agents.
>>154147704If that was the case he wouldn't have caused Batman to have such a massive surge in popularity in the 30's and resulted in everyone and their Mother getting a kid sidekick
>>154136952Gooner Blade is Lame and weird.
>>154151590you are trans
>>154136952>>154151598This is how we got stuck with Cass we're not doing this again
Modern opinions on Robin are largely shit, because DC spent all of the post-crisis era retconning him out of the earliest stories, minimizing his skills, accomplishments, and and influence in the mythos under the veil of realism.If you go back and read the first couple years of Detective Comics or Batman, Robin is this one in a billion hyper-athletic freak of nature who's always itching for a fight. Smarter and stronger and more competent than three grown men twice his size. Stopping murderers. Busting up opium dens. Laughing at the criminals that blow their brains out rather than be taken alive. That's the point. Robin the Boy Wonder.It's not weird, it's wish fulfillment.
>>154151559That's cute and all, but they weren't literally taken to fight against armed criminals anon, that's not comparable to what sidekicks do everyday fighting thugs and villains bigger and stronger than them.
>>154151559Also, I'm not really saying "child soldier" in a derogatory way. Like others have said, it's wish fulfillment.Child soldiers are a horrible tragedy in real life, that's a fact, but in comics, kids can actually participate in battle and even do things that their adult counterparts can't, they grow from it, they have more power as child soldiers than they would otherwise.
Robin exists for the benefit of the child readers. The fact is, he was pretty effective for this purpose. His introduction rejuvenated the Batman brand. The reason Robin is such a point of contention is because at some point, comic books stopped being for kids and became entirely centered on adults. Kids loved Robin, adults generally don't.
>>154151581Niggas didn't have shit to do in the 30s, of course they bought comic books.
>>154139576>Dick(who was goofy)Better to admit you never read Dick's Robin comics than make shit up, casual.
>>154139576>who was a literal goblin that he even made a troll faceHe was cribbing that from Dick. 95% of Jason's time as Robin is a Golden Age homage, and the last 5% is Starlin trying to kill him.
>>154136890>There's really nothing you can do to make the Robin concept not fucking weird.Except let him lead the Teen Titans and get two popular animated series out of it.
>>154152027>DC spent all of the post-crisis era retconning him out of the earliest stories, minimizing his skills, accomplishments, and and influence in the mythos under the veil of realism.No they didn't. He just wasn't around for the first two years.
>>154152027>Modern opinions on Robin are largely shit, because DC spent all of the post-crisis era retconning him out of the earliest stories, minimizing his skills, accomplishments, and and influence in the mythos under the veil of realism.Robin was the only memorable part of early post-Crisis Batman until Denny O'Neil finally got his shit together after the movie saved Batman.
>>154153466>Retconned out of the Joker origin and first appearance.>Retconned out of the Catwoman first appearance.>Retconned out of the Riddler origin.>Retconned out of the Penguin origin.>Retconned out of the Clayface origins.I can go on.
>>154137011>>154136952>>154136931Pedos please
>>154153588None of that matters. His roles in those stories were tertiary.
>>154153682NTA but>No they didn't>Okay they did but it doesn't matter
>>154153610Fuck off
>>154153588All of that, and the Post-Crisis era is still the peak of Batman.
>>154153588He wasn't retconned out of those stories, it was a brand new continuity. They decided it would work better for Batman to operate for two years of countless adventures before getting Robin and didn't feel it was necessary to have Batman limited to mobsters, Dr. Death, The Monk, and Hugo Strange just because that's the way Finger and Kane did it the first time.
>>154136890Comic books ARE weird. You fags aren't interested in reading them you're interested in fanfiction and "fixing" ideas that sold more comics than you ever could
>>154144399I dunno why people praise arkham designs so much
>>154153610Fucking retard
Batman Forever already fixed it, just have him start as an eighteen year old Bruce is training. Bruce didn't start training until he was an adult, he doesn't need a twelve year old padawan.
DC has published more Dick-as-Robin comics in the last 3 years than DC did in the entire post-crisis era.Really makes you think.
>>154155786It's a surrogate father/son relationship. That's point. That's the goal.
>>154137584Not compared to the average IQ of his world.
>>154136890You just make Batman a teen too.
>>154155807This. Robin shouldn't start much older than orphaned Bruce, so it can be the most like Bruce traveled back in time to give his child self everything he needed to go stomp out a gangster immediately and have a human life instead.
>>154155798Yeah, DC is currently run by Dick fans.
>>154151620>>154136952I was gonna say, isn't that just Cass?
>>154136952>Bringing up random drama from a completely unrelated franchise here. Why do you have to be like that, guys?
>>154138642Honestly wanted Carrie Kelly in the Snyderverse.
>>154138290>>154138342I liked how he'd laugh in the Young Justice pilot but they dropped that pretty quickly
>>154136890why's batman acting like a vampire?
>>154136890first day on /co/?, batman and robin are from 1940s
>>154155798And they're all written by silver age fanboy Mark Waid who has his run of the castle now.
>>154136890He should be a guy of a similar age and build to Batman, like how Booster Gold & Blue Beetle are lets say
>>154157708Miller is overprotective about the character being used by others. She was supposed to be reintroduced in the comics a while back but Miller vetoed it after she showed up
>>154136890The issue with Robin isn't that he's weirdIt's that he contributes nothing characterwise. His only contribution really is 1. to appeal to kids and 2. to make Batman evolve into being more of a social person. But the first can be done in other ways and the second can be done with actual characters like Gordon or Catwoman or Alfred or whatever.All of the Batfam is like this, there's a reason why they cycle so much. There is literally no difference between Dick and Jason and Tim except that Jason grows up to be an edgelord.
>>154153846Precisely because the good part of Post-Crisis understood that the Batfam is fucking useless and adds nothing to Batman. So many of the big stories lack Robin and the crewObjectively they exist to do family drama bullshit. That's it. They don't appeal to kids anymore cause kids like dark Batman and they have been overexploited with thirty members. The most memorable Batman comics, unsurprisingly, are Batman and Alfred and Gordon facing off against villains. Usually more pulpy and grounded, or gothic.Even Dennis O Neil and the like threw Robin into a random college or had him fuck off to the Teen Titans to leave Batman alone.
>>154161377No, edgetard
>>154161393Tell me, what does Robin CONTRIBUTE to Batman that improves his stories? Being a fucking Marvel quippy cunt? Helping solve "clues" which Batman would have figured out regardless but the writers give him the idiot ball so Robin does something? Helping him fight despite being a 12yo that any adult thug could overpower?Robin hasn't contributed anything to Batman in years. What's his biggest contribution, dying in Death in the Family, an overrated story? Bah.
>>154161477>Being a fucking Marvel quippy cunt?Ok, pretentious secondary
>>154161511But that's not a valuable role to any story.The thing with Robin is he has ultimately not evolved, despite attempts to make him edgy with Jason or smart with Tim. He's like if Gordon was still stuck back in that period where he was the fat bumbling commissioner who failed at everything (AKA what Batman '22 did lmao) instead of being the badass that Miller reimagined him as and which actually adds to the stories by giving us a more down to earth, human perspective and dealing more with internal corruption and banal evil. Maybe one day Robin will be reimagined to contribute something but he doesn't now.
>>154153991Knight Robin is the one Arkham design that isn't praised. In general Arkham designs did a fantastic job combining realistic/practical with comic book style.
>>154161477In modern comics meant for young adults and older? Robin is a kid/teen who kick-ass and the best evidence of Bruce not being in his right mind, or that being well-meaning is not the immunity totem retards think it is. That's the most interesting thing this character can be.>hasn't contributed anything to Batman in years.Who has contributed anything to Batman overs the last decade? Not Batman for sure.
>>154138957>BTAS already fixed him. He was a grown ass man, his costumes had pants, and he lived at college.To go from this to tiny little baby boy Tim was quite the shift, even if DCAU Tim was pretty good, it was weird to see a little boy fighting (and beating) thugs and mooks
>>154161702>the best evidence of Bruce not being in his right mindBah, modern "Batman is heckin' crazy cause he dresses like a bat and beats up thugs!" I can buy this for the early years but there reaches a point where Batman should mean something beyond being a fucking loonie. Most writers who think that are faggots who ship him with Joker unironically>Not Batman for sureBeing the main character means that Batman can change everything. The issue here isn't Batman as a character but that writers have been brainwashed by the Mooresque style of writing where everything is miserable or whatever (or alternatively the Marvel style of writing where everything is a shitty crossover with Batman fighting supermonsters when he should be solo) and the franchise has been stuck telling the same stories over and over cause writers don't want to go back to anything slightly different like Dennis O Neil Batman.
>>154161477>Tell me, what does Robin CONTRIBUTE to Batman that improves his stories?If you have to ask this, you are too old to be obsessing over Batman (NOTE: not too old to like Batman, just to be autistic about it).
What is DC doing with Jason Todd now?Jason works better as an evil Anti-Batman than someone like Deathstroke.
>>154141339I don't know if I love or hate Disco-Nightwing
>>154161766>(or alternatively the Marvel style of writing where everything is a shitty crossover with Batman fighting supermonsters when he should be solo)Fucking hell, Batman was a founding member of the Justice League and fought Starro three years before the first issue of The Avengers.
>>154161377Aside from that very short period in-between A Death in the Family and A Lonely Place of Dying and those Year One-era Legends of the Dark Knight books, post-crisis had no problem with a large Batfam. In addition to the ever-present Alfred there was Tim of course, Harold, Huntress, Azrael, Spoiler, Catwoman, eventually Nightwing and Oracle joined the fold, then Cass Cain.
>>154161773Anon, so is literally everyone here.>>154161841And? This appeal to the past is absurd. Past Batman also had the Silver Age where Batman had fucking zebra costumes and became an alien, a genie, a merman, and other wacky shit.We have grown as an audience to see the consequences of having Batman in a serious take on the Justice League. He becomes Batgod who with le prep time is able to shoot Darkseid with a supergun and travel back in time and outsmart deities.Batman shouldn't be like that. He should be a local hero. Most Justice League stories with him are slop.
>>154161881>This appeal to the past is absurd. You also do it
>>154161766More like "Batman is taking actual orphans into his war against windmills.">who ship him with JokerThat's most big names working at DC. I agree that doesn't produce anything of worth but that's not Robin's fault. Even if he is part of the story, he will be reduced to a plot device.>don't want to go back to anything slightly different Don't talk about what you don't know. DC are all over the place in term of everything. That includes tone and characterization. Batman being heckin wholesome or an edgelord vary from one writer to another. Sometime they even try to have both and it works even less.
>>154161923I don't think it's fair to call Batman's war on crime tilting on windmills cause it very much is real and hurts people, and the supervillains would have killed Gotham seventy times over had Batman not intervened every single time.>I agree that doesn't produce anything of worth but that's not Robin's fault. Even if he is part of the story, he will be reduced to a plot device.My issue is that Robin just doesn't seem to have much value by himself. He needs a reimagining urgently on a Year One scale to actually make him interesting. But I do agree that a lot of writers suck at writing.>Batman being heckin wholesome or an edgelord vary from one writer to another. Sometime they even try to have both and it works even less.Eh. I think it's in three camps personally: Batgod in any modern comics in the continuity, brooding miserable mentally ill Batman in elseworlds or solo stories, and quirky Batman in kids cartoons. I don't think most of the modern comics got Batman right the way older ones did imo.
>>154161849People forgot A Lonely Place of Dying Knightfall saga is a critique to edgy loner Batman, not a praise.But just like Tower of Babel, it flies over their heads
>>154136890It's weird because they are trying to push Batman as "realistic", but there's no denying that Robin, his villains and the rest of supporting cast are the reason why he became hugely popular in the first place. No matter how hard his fanboys try to deny it.
Hey aren't the clothes Robin wears suspiciously similar to that famous acrobat act that was famously murdered and whose orphaned son was adopted by billionaire playboy layabout Bruce Wayne?
Batman Forever had the best take; Grayson is more or less a Batperson already, Bruce is totally opposed to the idea but still wishes to fund his life out of a sense of obligation, begrudgingly agrees to support him in transitioning only after realizing no deterrence is possible.
>>154162662Batman's popularity can be traced to the fact his was the first DC Hero to have a teenage sidekick.Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Arrow followed suit, the last doing it roughly a year after Batman got Robin
>>154136931FPBP
>>154163171He was already popular before he got the sidekick. https://www.dc.com/blog/2022/03/02/why-batman-doesnt-kill>It was at this point that editor Whitney Ellsworth put his foot down. Children were reading this magazine in the millions, and parents were finding reason for concern. With moral panic against the values depicted in comic books already on the rise in those nascent years, the pressure was on to soften their second-most popular hero’s image.Batman #1 wouldn't have happened if he wasn't Detective Comics's biggest draw. Detective Comics #38 was published the month before.
>>154161994No, windmills are fair. Gotham and his villains have only changed for the worse over the decades because ultimately Bruce is not putting his strength and efforts where he should. He often his is worst villain too. His war is less against crime than in upholding a status quo that is not different than the one that made him Batman. >My issue is that Robin just doesn't seem to have much value by himself.As a supporting character, his value is to bring light to a side of the main character we wouldn't see otherwise. Since Robin works closely with Batman, it usually revolves around personal drama and human relationships. Ultimately he should help readers determine what kind of adult or co-worker Bruce Wayne or Batman is. "What kind of mentor, person, authority figure, or friend is he?" "How irresponsible or dependable is he?" etc. Whenever the setting is edgy or goofy, the concept of having a child sidekick says a lot about Bruce/Batman. If that side of Bruce or Batman doesn't interest you, then yes, Robin has no value.
>>154163862>Gotham and his villains have only changed for the worse over the decades because ultimately Bruce is not putting his strength and efforts where he shouldRetarded revisionism. This is precisely what the Trial episode in BtAS was all about. A DA claiming that Batman only created supercriminals and the criminals blaming it all on Batman until it turns out she discovers they were going to become this anyways and Batman is the only thing keeping Gotham from collapsing. Where should his efforts be exactly? He already donates tons of money as Bruce Wayne, uses his political capital to campaign for asylums and orphanages and shit, what else can he do if Gotham is just cursed by the writers to be a perpetual shithole?>He often his is worst villain tooI don't recall this ever being the case.>His war is less against crime than in upholding a status quo that is not different than the one that made him Batman. Huh? He destroyed the crime families that led to crime rising before supercriminals. What status quo?>his value is to bring light to a side of the main character we wouldn't see otherwiseSo many stories are about Batman and his antisocial nature clashing with both his psyche and career. Arkham Origins for instance does it without a Robin.>"What kind of mentor, person, authority figure, or friend is he?" "How irresponsible or dependable is he?"How far have we fallen, that Batman's responsibility is questioned? This kind of shit thinking is why we got the comic storyline with the Batfamily fucking defending criminals while Batman is the only sane person who is trying to stop them.
>>154156049How a teen would be allowed to adopt an orphan?
>>154136890make robin a 56 year old man with a beer gut and arms like tree trunks
>>154164091Kinda interesting how you keep bringing examples from outside comics.
>>154164091>Batman is the only sane personHe wasn't sane by any means in GW.>the Batfamily fucking defending criminalsLike how Batman have done countless by defending the joker? I guess it's only "moral" and ok when he does it?
>>154164217Money. But it will heavily push the mostly buried "batman is about a rich pedophile elitist beating up poor people" thing.The only way to make it work is if Batman gets Alfred to adopt him and they become brothers. But that kind of dynamic flies in the face of the most popular and marketable dynamic and will obviously ape the Dick-bat and Robin-Damian dynamic and do it worse.
>>154164361Don't forget Catwoman.
>>154164281They are even disconnected examples which they don't exist in the same continuity.
>>154164361This is kind of why much of modern superheroics in comics and western media fails.Morality isn't dictated by actual morality.It's dictated by market forces and necessarily ties morality to who is wearing the white hat and the black hat. Not their actual morality. This makes any preaching about the right thing or moral grandstanding..well..stupid. They really should just give it up and write entertainment.The morality of the characters and justifyability of their actions to normal rational people should be linked. All big dumb fucked up shock events where the villain does seriously heinous twisted stuff should be tabled till they have a discussion on how to deal with the fallout and have real consequences. LOLWho am I kidding.
>>154164091>A DA claimingThat reads like a lazy strawman, which is the only kind of evil Batman can do something about. I didn't even go there and pretend he created his villains. Just that his war on crime is a losing battle.>Where should his efforts be exactly?Since his biggest problem is that he always fights the same suspects, hanging up Batman and putting himself in a position where he can reform or control the justice system would be a start. But that or "solving crime" wouldn't make for a good superhero story. So this, or the "tons of money" he gives, is pointless. Starting a war on crime and not fighting corruption is fighting windmills. His only saving grace is his supervillains. They give him something he can do or make him the lesser evil.> his antisocial nature clashing with both his psyche and careerCool. Doesn't brush the mentor or adult side of him. I guess you're just not interested.>I don't recall this ever being the case.You must be blind. I find it harder to find a story where Bruce not being a dickhead or a control freak doesn't end up isolating him. Also, Brother Eye, Zurr-whater his name, that robot in a recent run, arguably Jason or anytime a Robin gets a bad ending.>How far have we fallen, that Batman's responsibility is questioned?kek. I don't know what to tell you. Batman never flew high.
>>154164589In the Metal evant (which was caused by him), he legit faced zero consequences. He judges everyone, but no one has the right to judge him. He is such a manchild character when you think about it.
>>154137616does she? she looks like a hot topic chick to me>>154138875I was told 8 when parents died and 12 when he fights crime, in almost every version
>>154138342it's funny how perfectly the '66 show copied Robin's mask, slavish accuracy at the expense of it actually fitting onto a human face. poor Burt and his peripheral vision
>>154160372DC doesn't own her?
>>154161823>Jason works better as an evil Anti-Batman than someone like Deathstroke.Except making Jason into an evil anti-Batman was a stupid idea and had a negative effect on both Jason and Bruce's characters.
>>154161591Batman is filthy rich wasp who puts on a bat themed gimp/swat armor and beats up poor and insane people. He then protects insane mass murderers by putting them into loony bins where they can break out murder torture and rape again so he can go do it once again.Any attempts to be down to earth and moral with this fails and exposes how out of touch you are. Batman is fundamentally ridiculous. All of it is. It has to go by rule of cool and action movie law. Any attempts to make it anything else fails miserably and seems insane.
>>154162063Tower of Babel is an ironic curse.>Storyline made to criticize Batman's paranoid tendencies>causes the rise of Batprep as a concept
>>154166456No, secondary
>>154162063>People forgot A Lonely Place of Dying Knightfall saga is a critique to edgy loner Batman, not a praise.Except both those stories do a terrible job of it. ALPOD is good on a first read, but the more you look into it, the more you realize it's the story that effectively stopped treating Jason Todd like a character, made him into a narrative function for Bruce to grumble about without actually having to learn from it and effectively ensured there would be no consequences for his death. It stops being "OH MY GOD, MY SON IS DEAD" to "Batman needs a Robin at all times because otherwise he'll never function properly or algo."And Knightfall saga falls apart when you realize that it's Denny O'Neil attacking an edgy Batman strawman directed at an audience who supposedly wants it... Despite Denny O'Neil and his editorial being more responsible than anyone for Batman comics becoming darker in the first place.
>>154138779Wait, is this happening after Robin was literally beaten to death and then exploded? Is Batman just lying to Gordon's face about Robin being dead?
>>154166582>ALPOD is good on a first read, but the more you look into it, the more you realize it's the story that effectively stopped treating Jason Todd like a character, made him into a narrative function for Bruce to grumble about without actually having to learn from it and effectively ensured there would be no consequences for his deathBut enough about Under the Hood
>>154161377>Objectively they exist to do family drama bullshit. Marvel literally stole the entire industry from underneath DC's feet because readers actually like it when their comic is more than just generic superhero shit. >That's it. They don't appeal to kids anymore cause kids like dark Batman and they have been overexploited with thirty members. The most memorable Batman comics, unsurprisingly, are Batman and Alfred and Gordon facing off against villains. Except the immense popularity of post-Crisis Batman say otherwise, retard. >Usually more pulpy and grounded, or gothic.And full of DRAMA.
>>154166619It was actually when Dick leaves and goes out on his own, he gets lightly injured fighting Joker and everyone thought he died before Jason steps in
>>154166645>But enough about Under the HoodUTH is also bad for the same reasons I have with ALPOD's story. And ALPOD isn't bad; it's much better than UTH as a story because Denny O'Neil and Marv Wolfman can tell a story better than Judd Winick.
>>154155786>Bruce didn't start training until he was an adultFucking what? Have you genuinely never seen the Kid Bruce Training Montage? Pullups, chemistry set?
>>154166659Huh. Well, that's significantly less psychotic on Batman's part then.
>>154166341It wasn’t a stupid idea, and you only hate it because Jason wasn’t a Dick clone.
>>154167319>It wasn’t a stupid ideaCan you explain how it wasn't?>and you only hate it because Jason wasn’t a Dick clone.I hate it because it ruined Jason's character, which was as bad as making him a Dick Clone.
>>154167371>Can you explain how it wasn't?It’s simple. If it was such a bad idea, Jason would still be in his grave like Grant Wilson. Thank God Winick was the writer, because if anyone else had brought him back, it probably would’ve turned out way worse.>I hate it because it ruined Jason's characterIt didn’t ruin Jason’s character. You just don’t like the direction they took him in.
>>154167573>It’s simple. If it was such a bad idea, Jason would still be in his grave like Grant Wilson. Thank God Winick was the writer, because if anyone else had brought him back, it probably would’ve turned out way worse.You're not actually explaining why, you're just making a statement. >It didn’t ruin Jason’s character. Here's Judd Winick making the character whose life was ruined by drugs, crime, and violence against women partake and ensuring what happened to him will happen to others.
