>>154149897
>killed
it's Darkseid, best thing he did was giving him prep time until he inevitably comes back
>also sells his soul for another mad god

yeah those two are complete morons though.

>>154149897
They sound more upset he didn't do it "the right way".

>>154149897
I hate this no-kill horseshit.

>>154149897
I like that Superman seems like he's, calmly if firmly, appealing the higher morality and Batman is just throwing a tantrum he's not the boss

>>154149897
Batman? The Batman who fatally shot Darkseid because "fuck you, you're an absolute evil that has to be put down"?

>>154150148
pretty weird for batman to be throwing a tantrum to be honest, he always seemed like the type to understand where he lays in the hierarchy of gods and monsters. but manchild bruce isnt anything new to be honest
>>154150004
real

>>154150004
This is why these no kill stories are always so stupid. Because even if you do kill him he's just gonna comeback. It's impossible to successfully address this idea in a major superhero comic.

>>154149897
Wait, are they actually giving him shit for killing DARKSEID? Is that's what's happening here? LMAO fucking hell my guys, who's writing this trash?

>>154150303
Mark Waid

>>154150226
Exactly.
It's an exercise in frustrating the shit out of the reader and the writer.

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>>154150004
>>154150303
Magog killed Gog here. The other heroes are still being deranged about it.

>>154149897
Capeshit is so ridiculous, Even Jedi kill when necessary.

>>154150303
Leave it to OP to be a total fag who completely leaves out the context of why Batman, Superman, and all of the other superheroes were pissed at Magog in this instance.

No, they didn't get on Magog's ass for killing Darkseid. Darkseid was trying to rip a fragment of the Anti-life equation out of the mind of Gog, and beating up all the superheroes in his path to do it. Magog, being told by the other superheroes to get reinforcements, decides instead he wants to play at being big hero who saved the universe, rushes in, gets his ass kicked by Darkseid stupidly fast, and then impulsively kills Gog to deny Darkseid his prize. Darkseid then just washes his hands of the whole thing, leaving Magog to try and explain himself, in particular why he didn't call for help like the other superheroes asked and decided to basically execute what amounted to a hostage.

They weren't pissed he "did what had to be done", they were saying he didn't NEED to do it at all and that it's insulting that he was basically trying to pretend that he lost faith in the other superheroes to save the day. You absolutely can agree or disagree if you would shoot a hostage to stop a terrorist attack, but either way it's at least consistent with how Superman and especially Batman would view things. Nobody was mourning Gog's death, they were just incredulous at how Magog was essentially trying to act like he was a big hero who saved the day instead of a reckless idiot who nearly got himself killed.

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>>154150370
Forgot pic

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>>154150384

>>154150370
The other heroes hadn't arrived yet. Magog had to protect billions of lives. He did what needed to be done. Batman and Superman act like Magog was being a rabid dog.

>>154149897
I feel like Waid wants to overcorrect the edgy 2000s
Pre Crisis Superman had no problem with wanting to kill the Anti Monitor and Bats pointed a gun at Darkseid because the alternative was the end of the world

>>154149897
please understand we cant be writing things that would inspire people to rise up and kill their opressors after all

>>154150463
For what it's worth, as some random anon on the internet, I'm not arguing against that read of the situation. Gog was a piece of shit whose death not a single person will mourn, and rightfully so. I'm just saying that OP was a fag who intentionally left out the context that Magog was trying to weasel out of everyone's disapproval by making excuses like "he had no choice" when he absolutely DID have a choice, he just chose the method that left nobody happy or approving of it.

>>154150465
Panic in the Sky has Superman mad at maxima for killing brainiac, Manchester got KWABed by Superman twice (even got fucked because basically became a villain because Superman beat him).
There are times that Clark Kill, but is when he is forced(that brain amalgam from Byrne run) or is a doomsday thing that everyone tried (which is not magog case here) and even then when he Kill he always get punished(in a coma/dead in DoS, almost go crazy after killing zod).
>Pre Crisis Superman
Funny because Moore vision in his last pre crisis story is the opposite , Superman kill Myx and after that he doesn't deserve to have powers.

>>154150556
Anon, I am OP. Magog didn't have much of a choice. He made a decision to save the world.

>>154150556
magog was pretty happy with it, nobody would have been happy if darkseid killed half of them.

>>154150697
Nah. He could have left to warn the other superheroes and get them to where Darkseid is faster. He could have hid from the fight to somewhere safer, knowing that he could have gotten himself killed. He could have even tried fighting Darkseid directly. Nobody would have contested him trying any of that. Dude killed a hostage and tried to act like he was somehow the big man of the hour deserving of applause, rather than a reckless idiot who basically set the precedent that this is about "winning" rather than saving lives. He doesn't deserve accolades for that.

Then again, this entire thing was a prequel for Kingdom Come, with Spectre saying that it was predestined to occur, so trying to pretend any of these characters have free will is more academic than anything.

>>154150370
>Magog, being told by the other superheroes to get reinforcements, decides instead he wants to play at being big hero who saved the universe, rushes in, gets his ass kicked by Darkseid stupidly fast, and then impulsively kills Gog to deny Darkseid his prize
Which was a 100% correct choice, because Darkseid was literally meters away from Gog's corpse, cockslapped Supermen and the rest of the League, and other heroes were nowhere to be seen. Magog was the only one remaining who could even move. What the fuck would change if he left to bring reinforcements when THEY WERE ALREADY ON THEIR WAY AND ALREADY TOO LATE TO ARRIVE ON TIME (they did in fact arrive, but only after Darkseid already fucking left)? He can't magically speed them up, all he'd be doing in that case would be giving Darkseid a direct path to what he wanted to get (and then fuck over everyone). Also that horde of heroes already struggled with just Supes and Batman, Darkseid would have raped all of them just as easily as he raped Supermen and the League. Magog was pushed into a corner and there was no. Other. Option. Either let Darkseid win (and lose bigly) or smoke Gog and deny him the victory. Both Batman and Superman were completely retarded here, especially Batman who was droning about other options they blatantly did not have.
Also Gog had it coming, he brainwashed every hero on Earth in order to go to war with Darkseid despite knowing with certainty that it would be a suicide mission.

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>>154150803
I don't know man, if I saw Wonder Woman and Green Lantern get taken down by a guy who barely moved his arms then I think I'd also be doing anything I could to stop him from killing others. But I still think Batman and Superman are overreacting in such a way that made me question if I'm even meant to be on their side. I understand stories aren't about 'sides' necessarily. but I can usually see where the two of them are coming from. They seem way out of line here. Also it's nice to talk about comics.

>>154150803 (me)
>>154150384
oh guess what, I was off my mark a bit, Darkseid wasn't "meters away" from Gog, he was already IN THE PROCESS OF RIPPING THE ANTI-LIFE EQUATION FROM HIM. The other heroes would have NOT arrived in time and if they did, Darkseid would have still raped them and went back to ripping the ALE out of Gog's body, which brings up back to zero and Magog needing to snuff Gog to save the day.

>>154150384
>>154150399
Darkseid can have some really fuckin good dialogue sometimes.

>>154150898
>there was no. Other. Option
The insistence that there was only continues to make me feel like you didn't read the comic either.

>>154150925
Yeah, for what it's worth, I honestly don't dispute that Magog's actions weren't an effective response. And I don't think that Batman and Superman's responses were written in a way that was entirely organic to them and more as a meta-response to Kingdom Come, written purposefully in a way that will ensure David comes away with the wrong message rather than how they'd normally act. Frankly, I don't think they'd be complaining that Magog "saved the world" wrong, they'd instead be telling him that this was NOT a victory, just a really desperate form of stalemate. Though I don't really write comics, and apparently I'm not as ruthless as the other anons here.

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>>154150925
Fuck Green Lantern and Wonder Woman, look at how Seid treated TWO Supermen and tell me the shitters that were coming to help had any chance of even slowing him down for a microsecond

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>>154151042

>>154150960
Pics unrelated.

>>154151063
But you didn't post pics.

>>154151042
why is this version not punchable?

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More importantly, could Spectre look ANY gayer

>>154151028
>The insistence that there was only continues to make me feel like you didn't read the comic either
I read the comic. More times than I probably should have. Do teel what other options did he have that would have ended in victory, exactly? David just witnessed Darkseid rape two Supermen, Shazam, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Flash in seconds, without spending even a modicum of effort and without receiving even a scratch. Sure, David can throw himself at Darkseid and get obliterated as wel, but that wouldn't buy anyone even a second of the time. Leave to get reinforcements? They were already on the way (because earlier in the comic Gog called every hero on Earth to his location) and they would have NOT made it in time, regardless of whether David went to meet them halfway through or not, because he sure as hell has no means to speed it up. They still have not arrived after Darkseid left and everyone started chewing him out, and Darkseid was ALREADY seconds away from ripping out ALE from Gog's body before Magog fried him. And even if by some miracle they would have arrived in time, the remaining heroes were not even as powerful as the League that Darkseid already no-diffed - the boggest guns there were like, two other Green Lanterns, Fate, Zatanna and Supergirl. A distraction for two more seconds, at BEST. Darkseid rapes the new arrivals and we're back to square one. Now what?

>>154151088
right here
>>154150384
>>154150399

>>154151164
stop looking at the meta-entity's waist and hips Anon!

>>154151274
But those are related to what I was talking about.

>>154151253
Considering you seem to act like you're writing the issue yourself and affirming that there was "no other option" as dictated by your scipt, clearly you're the one telling us "now what".

>>154151356
No, they're related to what I was talking about.

why is darkseid able to tank all of that anyway?

>>154149897
>I...
>...ignored me!
I hate it when they have characters complete each other's sentences like that

>>154151378
They just fought Gog to a standstill, and because the plot said so. Cause normally he wouldn't be able to slap down the Justice League that effortlessly.

>>154151372
You said they were unrelated though.

>>154151378
because Darkseid is

>>154149897
Modern writers are garbage, simple as

>>154151042
Why is Darkseid so strong in this story? doesn't he get soloed by Supes usually?

>>154151469
Waid made Kingdom Come and gave us Wally West legendary run you tourist

>>154150328
When he said he wanted to burn it all down, he wasn't kidding.

>>154151365
>dodging the question
Do you have an actual response or not? Cause the writer sure as fuck covered his bases when it comes to making sure the situation had only one plausible way of the day not ending in bad times for everyone, and yet you insist there were other options.

>>154151512
Kingdom Come was Alex Ross' baby. Waid's Flash is Trash.

>>154151136
>>154151378
>>154151484
Writer just decided to randomly jerk off Darkseid all of a sudden wven though he is usually not that strong even with power-ups. Gog did rough everyone up before this, but even before that it was said Darkseid was far more powerful than Gog and that Gog going to war against Darkseid with every hero on Earth was a guaranteed suicide, so the implication here is that Seid would have whooped everyone just as easily if they were fresh.

>>154151537
If you really wanted me to point out what David could have done, yes, I firmly believe he had options, and stated as such.

He could have run to the other superheroes. Superheroes that are insanely good at what they do. He screamed to Zatanna "Darkseid's here, get Gog away asap NOW!", she could have probably said "tropeleT goG" and poofed him out of there. He could have screamed it at Dr. Fate and had him use magic to time stop everything. Hell, he could have screamed that at any of the other speedsters besides Barry and they could have swoosed their way right up there with the Speed Force and vibrated Gog out at super speeds. The answer wasn't "stop Darkseid", it was "rescue Gog", and they legitimately could have done that any number of ways if David met them halfway instead of taking action.

He could have hid. It'd have been cowardly, but considering it's Darkseid, zero people would have blamed him for at least trying to get out of the blast zone and not getting himself killed.

Hell, the fact that he killed Gog in a single blast proved that he COULD have tried fighting Darkseid if he really, really wanted to, and probably fucked him up super bad. At least long enough for the rest of the league to get there.

No, I genuinely don't buy that Magog had "no other option". He had other options. He just chose what he thought was right and got read the riot act for it. That's it. Superheroes can take actions other heroes disagree with. That's always been the case. The JLA gave Wonder Woman shit for snapping Maxwell Lord's neck despite how serious the situation was because that's what heroes do. They disagree. Like, literally, the only way Magog "had no other option" was if you got meta and assumed he literally couldn't act any other way because Mark Waid decided it so. Otherwise, you're full of dicks. David had options for what to do. He just chose one that other heroes didn't like and then tried to refuse to shoulder the burden with a pathetic excuse.

>>154150344
>>154149897
Well I mean isn't this pre-Kingdom Come?

>>154149897

I hate how this colorist makes everything look orange.

Superman and Bruce are firmly on the idealistic side in a world where idealism has a tendency to win out. Bruce is an edgelord, but in reality, he tends to agree with Clark's ideologies since they both pretty much want the same things. . Even putting aside the "no kill" thing, what Magog did was execute a prisoner. And for these two, killing a prisoner being held hostage is, well, not really an option.

People bitching about how it was the most practical solution aren't really getting the point. Superman and Batman are two of the greatest heroes on the planet who have successfully saved the world time and time again, and there has never been ANYTHING practical about them.

>>154151733
>He could have run
Others were already on the way and NOWHERE near close to arriving. How would David know in which exact direction to go, btw? How would he even know if the heroes were arriving in one crowd from a singular direction and not separately from every direction possible? If so, he would also have no way of knowing which hero group he should go towards to find a powerset useful for the situation. David is not a clairvoyant or telepath, and Darkseid was already harvesting the ALE. Finding the heroes by flying in a random direction and briefing them on what'a going on and what they need to do would have taken, at best, seconds they did not have.
>He could have hid
That does not solve the problem? Others were clearly not arriving in time, JL were down, and nobody was stopping Darkseid. He gets the ALE and it's game over.
>the fact that he killed Gog in a single blast proved that he COULD have tried fighting Darkseid
There was a significant gap in power between Gog and Darkseid. Superman himself said that Darkseid was far more powerful than Gog, and Gog admitted that warring with Seid, even with all of Earth's heroes on his aide, would have been a certain suicide. Plus, you know, the fact that Supermen KOd Gog with a combined punch, yet couldn't even make Darkseid blink with a shared barrage points to that as well.
And even assuming David had the firepower, Seid had enough reaction speed to casually parry GL and WW and bitchslap Flash without even looking at him. Neither Supermen nor Shazam could even react to Omega Beams. If David tried to attack him, Darkseid would have been quicker on the draw in any case.
>He had other options
None of which would have ended with the day being saved. The best shot - finding someone who could magic Gog's body away - required information he did not have, time he did not have and just plain luck, and even then there was no guarantee Darkseid wouldn't just boom tubed to wherever Gog was sent.

So when did Darksied get this powerful, to just tank everything? Any other time the JL would have already beaten him up.

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>>154150344
>we simply traded one killer for another

>>154149897
No
A real person reading this would realize Magog was right and that heroes have to kill
Writers putting their heroes in a position where the villains will kill if not stopped are retarded for then critisizing heroes

>>154151549
>Kingdom Come was Alex Ross' baby. Waid's Flash is Trash.
You are an idiot with terrible taste

>>154149897
Try to not kill gods in general

>>154152124
Anon, you're the one who tried to make the claim "he didn't have any other choice". I'm the one saying he did. And killing Gog was one of those options, one that I'm not even saying was the worst one he could have taken given how dire the situation was if Darkseid had attained that chunk of the Anti-life Equation unhindered. It just wasn't one the other heroes considered morally acceptable, and one that feels rather gross to be celebrating as a "win", since he ultimately didn't "save the day" so much as just stop things from getting worse considering that the only reason Darkseid was even there was that they just showed up on his front lawn in a drunken brawl with Gog and he went "fuckit, might as well mug these losers before going back home".

Frankly, it's barely worth discussing with you, since the fact of the matter is, we don't know how true Batman's claim that the other superheroes were there was imminent. You're taking it as absolute fact that Batman was wrong and that somehow there was nobody else who could do literally anything at all. Others might read it as Batman being right that help was imminently right on the way, and that David made a very hasty decision in an attempt to try and salvage a dire situation by performing an action others heavily disagree with. According to Spectre, it doesn't matter either way since all this was destined to happen.

Frankly, in my opinion, it's more important in my opinion that David's first instinct wasn't to seek help, save his skin, or even fight Darkseid like the other superheroes. It was to kill Gog just to "win". But that's kind of why it's pointless to discuss it with you. You want to focus solely on discussing the outcome when the comic is clearly more interested in the intent.

>>154149897
>killing the deranged ultra-powerful villain is le bad
What the actual hell.
>>154150148
Same here.

>>154152139
Ever since people began really overhyping Darkseid and acting like he's so invincible that you get posts like >>154152124 to set up the false dichotomy that "he had no choice" when he did, he just made a choice that pissed Superman and Batman off and then got upset that the two biggest "no-kill" guys didn't agree to throw him a kegger party.

>>154152301
>you're the one who tried to make the claim "he didn't have any other choice"
The point was, in case you misunderstood me or if I didn't make myself clear, that the option David chose was a sure-fire way to save the day, while the other options would have either been enormous long shots hinging on literal luck and a significant chance of falling through... or just letting Darkseid win, which should not be considered an option at all. Which is to say, all the other options were either shit gambles or just giving up. The one he picked was objectively the best choice considering how many lives (literally all of them) were on the line and Gog by all means deserved to die.
>since he ultimately didn't "save the day" so much as just stop things from getting worse
How is that a valid distinction here? Darkseid showing up and getting ALE is a crisis situation that would have let to everyone getting enslaved or dying, stopping that from happening IS saving the day.
>we don't know how true Batman's claim that the other superheroes were there was imminent
But we do know! Because all the other fuckers still didn't show up to the scene while everyone else was shitting on David! Minutes after Darkseid would have gotten the ALE if David didn't roast Gog! Batman was quite literally coping and in denial that Gog's execution was the only viable way to stop Darkseid.
1/2

>>154152301
2/2
>You want to focus solely on discussing the outcome when the comic is clearly more interested in the intent.
But this intent clashes with the situation presented, because the writer decided to stack the deck in a way that anyone in their right mind would side with David for doing what he did, only to present him as a bad guy and have the guys whose involvement didn't positively influence the situation whatsoever wax poetic about what a guy who was clearly under a ton of stress, responsibility and no time to consider all the posibilities went with the solution that didn't involve gambling with lives and/or free will of everyone. It's especially egregious when we know for a fact that both Batman and Superman have killed (pre-crisis kryptonians, Doomsday, fucking Darkseid in Final Crisis), tried to kill (KGBeast) or drove others to suicide (Composite Superman) in situations that were sometimes not even as dire as the one David was in. Hell, recent DC K.O., as shit as it was, had them basically kill people as well (Joker in Batman's case, everyone Superman beat during the tourney in his) even though realistically they could have just let the opponents do that to them instead. And I am sure there are also many other examples that involved them taking sapient lives in situations of various severity, which only makes also the moralizing like this or when they were giving Diana shit for necksnapoing Maxwell Lord in a similar situation sound like hypocrisy. Or even better, when the same heroes frequently resort to what they themself consider "fates worse than death" and don't feel a single tinge of cognitive dissonance about it.

>>154152468
I am not overhyping Darkseid, I am simply working off the depiction of him in that specific comic. Yes, I also think Darkseid has no fucking business being this powerful, and the fact is, he WAS only written there to be this powerful specifically to force David into killing Gog after seeing the League get shredded like wet toilet paper and thinking (rightfully so) there was no other way to stop him. So you are confusing the cause and effect here.

>>154151416
Unrelated to what you were talking about.

>>154152853
>>154152884
I had a whole thing typed up, but instead of just going back and forth, I might as well restate myself in a far less confrontational way.

I believe the main reason for this disagreement is that you and the comic are conflating "had no other options" with "made the best possible choice given the circumstances". And while latter is always arguable, it is one that I can and will fully get behind given the way things are presented on the page. But the issue is not that the comic is trying to present some kind of balanced argument whether or not David might have made the best possible decision, cause that's a legitimately hard and trying debate to have. It's going for the far easier argument against whether or not David's actions can be considered praiseworthy, since necessary actions do not always need to be applauded nor celebrated. Few people should celebrate shooting a rabid dog, bombing a country, nor taking someone off of life support. Magog could legitimately argue how important it was to act imminently in taking Gog off the board to save people's lives. He'd be a lot harder pressed to argue that killing Gog was a "win" instead of what it really was, a desperation move. And he didn't even attempt to when challenged to, just acting upset he didn't get a pat on the head over it.


That is the reason for my disagreement with you, good sir. I will not argue that David made the worst decision in killing Magog to stop Darkseid from obtaining the Anti-Life Equation. It was a very understandable if ruthless decision to make. I'm just saying that "did the best I could think of at the time" is not the same as "the only possible ting I could have done" no matter how Magog tried to deny that he first thought to shoot the hostage before even attempting to save said hostage's life.

>>154152940
I do apologize in that I think I should have used the word "writers" instead of "people" so you didn't think I was calling you for misrepresenting Darkseid.

>>154150370
Thank you Mr Context

>>154150344
Two batmen?

>>154154287
Crossover with the Kingdom Come universe. It’s why there are two Supermen too.

>>154149897
>resisting evil is wrong citizens!
>meanwhile we need you to hand over all your money through taxation and also we are bringing in brown hordes to replace you
>remember resisting that in any way is wrong

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they always get their panties in a bunch over this stuff

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>>154149897
Darkseid is never NOT a threat to all life.
Killing him is always in self defense.
God of tyranny and evil, hello?

>>154155330
He’s just some immortal alien.
Morrison did a lot of damage by hyping up a guy whose armies, propaganda and technology were the primary threat when Kirby made him.

>>154155374
But even Morrison had the Green Arrow and Atom kill Darkseid without any real implication of stepping over a moral line.

>>154155374
>He’s just some immortal alien
We already have Mongul.

>>154151059
In this situation, why send Magog out for reinforcements and not the Flash? Time's of the essence, and Flash could conceivably both reach other heroes quickly and bring them to the site of battle quickly. Does Magog's stick let him teleport himself and other people from one place to another?

>>154155514
No plot point makes any sense if you remember the Flash exists.

>>154155514
Because Magog is a fuck up

Gog is a literal demon. It's not immoral to kill demons. This is so fucking stupid.

>>154155374
>He’s just some immortal alien.

Is 'New God' just the name of his alien species? I thought Kirby presented the New Gods as taking place of the Old Gods, who were actually supernatural gods.

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>>154152178
Western comics are so immature with story telling I actually cannot believe it.

>>154155668
Right. All the more reason not to send him for reinforcements, no?

>>154150399
Kek Darkseid refusing to be ragebaited.

>>154149897
That's so fucking stupid, DC is cooked.

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>>154150344
>We can't always predict the outcome
>But we do know the fight was winnable and your actions were the wrong ones

>>154155830
In a dire situation it’s better to send someone like that to get help since that is not that demanding of a job rather than have him do nothing or worse, fuck it up somehow in the battle

>>154155801
Gog is a god from the period prior to the New Gods

>>154156031
NOOOOOO YOU CAN'T JUST HECKIN' KILL ARES OR ZEUS, ANON!

>>154156031
It's late and I'm kind of lost now from your reply, but I thought this reply chain was about someone calling Darkseid an immortal alien, with the implication that he's not a god.

>>154151042
>You should not have been here, says the unpowered mortal who has no super plan or super device to stop cosmic bad guy
I guess he was there for a lecture if needed

>>154155823
There's a reason a singular manga outsold the entire western comic industry in 2020. This is kind of the problem in most modern western media, the writers treat the readers like retards that can't handle heavier, more complex ideas and topics. it's why we haven't had anything new that can remotely be called a cultural phenomenon.

>>154156320
>There's a reason a singular manga outsold the entire western comic industry in 2020.
Public transit.

>>154156383
The public transit that people weren't really riding during the global lock downs?

>>154156320
The group of kikes that run western media have been coasting on America's soft power and global relevance since like the 90's despite undermining that very soft power every chance they get with propaganda. They are literally biting the hand that feeds them and pissing on their biggest potential audience because of butthurt about racialist nationalism becoming cool again and because of the hubris that they thought everything would remain the same forever and that their stories don't need to evolve.

>>154156320
>heavier, more complex ideas and topics.
>manga

It’s just isekai escapism, cute girls eating cake, mix of edgelord violence and juvenile drama where you can be a total psycho but friendship somehow saves and redeems everything at the end or the most annoying shit like here’s a weird over the top gimmick that actually is just superficial visual thing and the actual story boils down to doing completely mundane every day things only with the main character being like a talking vending machine or a skeleton, aren’t we hecking zany!

>>154156405
>I have only seen shounen and overrated slop: the post

>>154156397
>let’s just ignore the previous 70 years of infrastructure, systematic conditions, social behaviour and set cultural norms that dictate how and what media is consumed and how rooted it has become

>>154156416
Yes that’s your average manga reader and east/west culture war poster on /co/

>>154156405
And it still outsells western comics. Perhaps western comic companies should swallow their pride a d actually cater to the audience instead of making trash that nobody likes while talking down to your customers.

>>154156424
I never argued that most anime is great. Just that you haven't actually seen anything good

>>154155823
It's literally just a marvel/dc problem. And even those have heroes kill people in imprints or magazines like Savage Sword of Conan where the writers are allowed to be edgy.

>>154156459
When they dominate the vast majority of the western comic scene then it is a western problem as a whole.
So many problems with western comics boil down to cape shit and cape shit because marvel and dc just take all the air out of the room for any other genre besides capeshit.

>>154156417
You're a fucking imbecile. How would public transport be the reason that kimitsu no yaiba sold that well when all the fucking nips where locked inside like the rest of us during covid? Kimitsu was a global phenomenon that sold like crazy because, despite it's targeted demographic being 12-13 year old boys, the characters acted like adults and the story itself wasn't irony poisoned and didn't treat the read like a fucking idiot.
You need to actually read things outside of capeshit, not necessarily manga, to see how incredibly antagonistic and unauthentic capeshit writers are.

>>154156484
but they don't because you can go on RCO right now and read everything published by first comics, 2000ad, dark horse, heavy metal, etc and not run out of things to read for a good long while.

>>154156440
They carer to their audience all the time and the audience consistently whines and demands X and then when it gets it goes “No I don’t mean it like that, I wanted Y!” and doesn’t ever put its money where its mouth is.

You don’t have to look any further than this very board and the endless whining it does about what they want and how to save comics and then shows completely ignorance of all the times those things have been done and tried in the past 20 years and how much bitching it generates whenever a book strays away from doing things the traditional way. Everyone pretends to hate crossovers and then whine and bitch when storylines don’t include and show other heroes reacting to the stuff happening and demand to know why x, y and Z aren’t being addressed, where are they?!?

Same way people here keep yapping about how you have to do anthologies and then act like DC in particular isn’t semi-regularly already putting out anthologies. People complain nobody is trying to bring in new audiences and then throw a fit when they do comics not aimed at normal superhero audiences or they do something weird like DC zombies or DC Medieval Knights and rage about how it’s trash despite sales being very good.

>>154156484
No it comes down to the audience of western comics being bunch of babies who pretend they want different things but then all they do is buy and read superheroes and ignore all different indy titles

>>154156498
Don't pretend as if those other companies don't have the same capeshit tropes that they saturate their own stories with.
I can count western graphic novels I have liked on one hand because they are utterly fucking infested with the same shit.
>>154156510
There is that element too. But even taking them at their word I never see people talking about the shit I actually liked and is indie. It's all still capeshit. People talk about indie and then immediately bring up spawn or hellboy and I just think, of fucking course they do. Basically no one talks about Bone even though it sold fairly well and isn't cape shit.

>>154149897
> Does DC expect you to side wth the moral faggots
Yes. There is no bigger sin in DC's fantastic la-la-land than killing a named character. Everything else is fair game.

>>154156500
>They carer to their audience all the time
lol
He didn't mean to sunk cost faggot consumers who will buy any slop they shit out,. He meant to actual human beings who want actual stories with no kike propaganda and no multiverse shit and actually good art that stands out.

>>154156641
Oh yeah, and producing more than one genre with the same tired old characters

>>154156492
Nips still used public transit, they just masked up and practiced social distance while doing so.

>>154156500
>They cater to their audience
Really now? The majority of comic book readers traditionally were young boys, teenagers and young men. Those groups don't want to read girl power tropes, or having the protagonist talked down to by the author's avatar. Remember how people mocked the comic run that made Superman's son gay and gave him a boyfriend with pink hair. That's not what the readers want. Give young boys things that they want: cool action scenes, scantily clad women that don't talk back, and a ripped protagonist that saves the princess and gets her at the end.

>>154156441
>I never argued that most anime is great. Just that you haven't actually seen anything good
You quite literally did. It's not the high art shit t hat's selling well. It's cheap garbage. You're an idiot.

>>154156710
>You quite literally did
Where?
>It's not the high art shit t hat's selling well. It's cheap garbage
I am aware. But at least you can find high art stuff if you look in many different genres very easily. How about you read shit that is actually good? Unlike with western shit you don't have to go on a fucking odyssey to find something that is good.

>>154156688
>or having the protagonist talked down to by the author's avatar.
Right, they prefer having the protagonist (reader's avatar) talking down the strawman of the week. Like in OP's pic.

>>154156492
Hey stupid fuckwit: if your culture leans heavily on public transport and it has created the massively widespread cultural habit of most people reading manga during daily transit, those people don’t magically stop reading if they suddenly have to spend more time at home. Instead they now just read more at home, because all that daily travel meant they had developed a regular habit of reading for entertainment.

Japan, unlike America, also isn’t fucking idiotic about masks so they just adapted to using masks everywhere even when they themselves weren’t sick and when things settled down they started travelling with public transportation like normal, only now with everyone using masks unlike the pandemic went away.

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>>154156724
>Where?
When manga out selling comics was brought up in the first place.
> But at least you can find high art stuff if you look
You do realize marvel and dc aren't the whole industry.

>>154156641
>kike propaganda

Aaaand post ignored

>>154156727
Yeah people like being catered to, it's not rocket science. That's why isekai slop sells. Westerners should get off their high horse, kick the soapbox to the side and make simple wish fulfilment stories if they want to make money.

>>154156788
>When manga out selling comics was brought up in the first place.
Well if I had made that point you would have a point yourself. Unfortunately for you, that was in fact, not me. Though honestly I would rather watch eastern slop than western slop if there was zero alternative. But there is a lot more manga and anime being made than comics and so is easier to find good stuff
>You do realize marvel and dc aren't the whole industry.
Downplaying their influence is dishonest.

>>154156688
>Those groups don't want to read girl power tropes, or having the protagonist talked down to by the author's avatar.

The most consistent fan feedback in the 00s was wanting more diversity and women characters. And you go fuck yourself with that strawman and culture war bullshit.

>>154153253
Hate the 2000 symbol limit
1/2
>believe the main reason for this disagreement is that you and the comic are conflating "had no other options" with "made the best possible choice given the circumstances". And while latter is always arguable, it is one that I can and will fully get behind given the way things are presented on the page
You know what, I can agree with that.
>It's going for the far easier argument against whether or not David's actions can be considered praiseworthy
So the issue is that he was relieved and cheery about averting a massive disaster? Because frankly I can't blame him for that either, that must have felt like a mountain coming off his shoulders. They still are not chewing him out for acting proud of himself, they are shitting on him for taking a life, even if it was in part their own incompetence that pushed him to make that choice. It's still annoying that Batman and Superman are acting holier than thou when they both have killed off problematic people in numerous other, sometimes not even as dire, situations, so at the very least they could have let him off for the first time to not come off as massive hypocrites. Not to mention they treat it as if he shot a civilian who conveniently had ALE in him, instead of killing a near-immortal god who brainwashed the whole planet and was about to knowingly lead it to slaughter. What were they planning to do if David didn't shoot him and Darkseid didn't show up, bring him to court? Cause who the fuck would even have the power to carry out the sentence when he is found guilty? Cause he was likely getting the death sentence anyway and only about Supermen and Magog potentially have the power of carrying it out. The whole situation is like trying to guilt a cop into feeling bad for shooting a terrorist to stop him from blowing up a train car full of people.

>>154153253
2/2
>I'm just saying that "did the best I could think of at the time" is not the same as "the only possible ting I could have done" no matter how Magog tried to deny that
I do still think that in this situation any other choices he could have made would have either lead to Darkseid winning or had such low chances of succeeding it was not worth the gamble. Also putting the blame on David for being the last man standing when the rest of the league decided to suicidally leroy jenkins Darkseid instead of having at least one of them more equipped to locate and drag reinforcements to the spot or at the very least much faster than David (either one of Supes, GL or Flash) is retarded as well. Like I said before, it's like the writers AND the League all acted in a way that would put David in a spot where he was the only one who could make a choice that would have mattered, and the situation heavily favoured the choice of shooting Gog.
>I do apologize in that I think I should have used the word "writers" instead of "people" so you didn't think I was calling you for misrepresenting Darkseid.
Ah, well in that case I agree with the sentiment. Darkseid wank HAS gotten out of hand lately.

>>154156813
>missing the point this hard
They are cattering to their audience and never stopped making wish-fullfilment stories. The page OP posted is exactly that.

>>154156993
Lol, lmao yeah I'm sure a curated "survey" made by the company that just tells them to keep going with their diverse policies is exactly what the market wants. If I go to San Francisco or Portland in the most progressive, left leaning places, and conduct a survey of a hundred college age liberal women, I'm not gonna get a good dataset on what the make dominated market wants. The loudest voices claiming that they wnt diversity and inclusion in comics don't actually buy them. The fact is that you have eyes but refuse to see the writing on the wall. The actual audience, the people that used to buy comics don't want progressive messaging and left leaning identity politics injected into their leisure activity. Manga gives the consumer what they want, not what the progressive intelligentsia wants.

>>154156993
>The most consistent fan feedback in the 00s was wanting more diversity and women characters.
Did you interview the 3 women that passed through the LCS that week?

>>154157129
It isn't though. People want to read about how Batman stops the Joker from blowing up Gotham's orphanage while brooding about his parents. Who asked for all the heroes standing in a circlejerk lecturing the audience why if you kill your enemies they win.

>>154157149
Maybe because it's not a Batman book???
>Who asked for all the heroes standing in a circlejerk lecturing
That's what capeshit does in between punching and brooding over a nothing burger.
> the audience
It's a strawman, not the audience. You have to be a moral faggot to enjoy capeshit. Just like you have to be an incel to enjoy isekais. Both are for narcissists who are willing to pay for slop that caters to them.

>>154156405
The fact you think you're making a point there only betrays your own ignorance.

>>154157149
>People want to read about how Batman stops the Joker from blowing up Gotham's orphanage while brooding about his parents
They don't even want that anymore.
People are fucking tired of the same characters and story beats STILL being recycled. Imagine if 99% of manga and anime was still about speed racer and astro boy. That should clue people in on how stagnant western comics and basically all capeshit is. Good media is something so good that you become obsessed with it. Who the fuck is going to think the same story told again but with slightly different details is going to be groundbreaking stuff?

Isekai has blown up as hard as it did a bit over 10 years ago and people are already getting a bit tired of it. Anyone with taste got bored of Dragon Ball power scaling before super even came along. Capeshit has been recycling plots and tropes for almost a literal century now and the same tired, sad people lap it up. Capeshitfags are the shounenfags of the west, sometimes they are one and the same (hoodweebs) but that is literally the only mainstream genre for comics as much as people like to claim otherwise. It's just fucking infantile.

>>154157074
>>154157079
>So the issue is that he was relieved and cheery about averting a massive disaster?
Not quite. The issue from what I understood of the comic is that he wasn’t celebrating just barely averting a galactic crisis, it’s that he had gotten so wrapped up in trying to impress everyone that he basically resorted to murder to do so. Look at how he reacts to Darkseid leaving. Not with relief, but frustration that he isn’t being acknowledged. Look at how he reacts to being read the riot act, insanely defensive and hurt that he isn’t being praised rather than admonished or even the least bit remorseful. That, combined with the fact that he risked his life running into battle instead of the safer options of running for help or rescuing the slobber-knocked heroes, made it clear he was only trying to go for the glory instead of protecting the other heroes. He basically fixated so hard in “winning” that he tried forgot the entire point of being a superhero.

> It's still annoying that Batman and Superman are acting holier than thou
That’s sadly just a feature of the comics, where their standards are impossibly high even for themselves.

>The whole situation is like trying to guilt a cop into feeling bad for shooting a terrorist to stop him from blowing up a train car full of people
It’s more like blowing up the train car full of people to stop one terrorist, but I find it reasonable you and I have different reads on the situation. Cause I do think that’s the intention, since it’s based on Kingdom Come. Cause this is basically his character arc, focusing so hard on trying to do good by “winning” all his fights via finishing off his villains until he gets into a completely avoidable conflict that causes so much wide scale death that it no longer becomes justifiable. And in order to get there, he does need a catalyst where he does feel justified even when the other heroes do not vindicate him.

>>154157256
Do you think that Western comics can start selling if they replace all the tired old superheroes and make new stories. Like with manga before the isekai slop became dominant. I can see a few artist making their own versions of a shonen book, like a western version of Naruto, Bleach, Demon Slayer, Hunter X Hunter. A story where you invent a fictional world with its own magic system and plop the protagonist there. Maybe make it a hidden world like in Bleach where a regular guy discovers he has magic bloodline powers. I genuinely want to know if this will get people to buy western comics again.

>>154157079
>I do still think that in this situation any other choices he could have made would have either lead to Darkseid winning or had such low chances of succeeding it was not worth the gamble
I might have to agree to disagree on that

> Like I said before, it's like the writers AND the League all acted in a way that would put David in a spot where he was the only one who could make a choice that would have mattered, and the situation heavily favoured the choice of shooting Gog.
That however is one I agree with, and it’s why I don’t contest that if it wasn’t written with the angle of being David’s turning point, he could have potentially justified his decision with Batman’s own of “what’s in Gog’s brain takes priority over anyone’s pride”, even if it was clear pride motivated David to be the big hero and make an unpopular decision to kill Gog rather than fight Darkseid.

>>154157149
>Who asked for all the heroes standing in a circlejerk lecturing the audience why if you kill your enemies they win.

It’s not a lecture, it’s characters with very well established morals and convictions reacting and calling out a character whose entire fucking M.O. to everything is just “I’ll kill someone”. Because they aren’t a hero, they’re a killer playing a hero.

You appear to be a thin skinned dummy who can’t handle that the heroes don’t share the same killing is okay mentality so you start complaining like a bitch about it. Just like Magog. True heroism isn’t about doing what’s easiest.

>>154157315
Why would it. People already have countless options with comics that aren’t superheroes. They don’t give a shit about them.

Capecomic writers always make the worst constructed strawmen, and can't understand a logical dilemma even when they are being sincere in constructing a situation and not just being petty because they dislike a character/other writer

>>154157325
2/10.
Batman and Superman have both killed before.

File: file.png (1021 KB, 602x922)

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No further comment.

Do writers realise the no-kill rule on purely evil villains doesn't work and makes the heroes look bad?
Like no kill rule on small crooks sure it makes sense

>>154157428
And that is an instance where there literally were no other options and Batman essentially was willing to die as a direct consequence, and not cry like a bitch that other people would not perhaps agree with his actions

>>154150004
Darkseid? I thought this was Gog.
Superman and Batman both came together to kill Darkseid in Final Crisis.

>>154157315
>Do you think that Western comics can start selling if they replace all the tired old superheroes and make new stories.
Just having more mainstream variety in general? Yes. It's not like you have to never use them again, just be more sparing instead of having constantly running issues at all times

>>154157302
>>154157321
>Not quite
But in any case your point seems to be about David's attitude regarding the situation. Problem is, Batman and Superman are not even chewing him out on that, they focus on him taking a life. Batman also shits on him for hiding and covering in fear (not an unreasonable reaction given the situation) until it was too late (something I think you mentioned was an option that David could have taken, but clearly Batman disagrees) and insisting he should have went for backup, instead of chewing out Flash, someone who could have plausibly located and brought reinforcements in time, for acting like a retard and running into Darkseid's fist for no reason. David gets ALL the shit even though League were the ones whose zerg rushing left David as the only one capable of doing something. The genius strategist Batman had no better ideas than to just stand in Darkseid's path to get smacked away ffs.
>It’s more like blowing up the train car full of people to stop one terrorist, but I find it reasonable you and I have different reads on the situation
But it's not? You can say that about Kingdom Come Magog who was causing a shitton of colateral damage with his BS, but right here he did not endanger any civilian or hero. The only casualty was a clearly evil god whose death would have been a net benefit. He DID shoot the terrorist to protect lives. And I'd argue that his attitude about this event shouldn't even matter in a discussion of whether he was right or wrong, him escalating his methods to what he was doing in KC is a whole another topic.
>I might have to agree to disagree on that
We have both presented our reads of the situation so I doubt we'd be agreeing on that point in any case.

>>154157302
>>154157321
>That however is one I agree with, and it’s why I don’t contest that if it wasn’t written with the angle of being David’s turning point
David was fucked from narrative standpoint in order for the events of KC to even happen. But the catalyst for that being this situation, where it is really hard to view David as being in the wrong, whereas in Kingdom Come he WAS pretty clearly going over the line, feels forced. The heroes, instead of trying to course correct him into at least reconsidering his attitude (even if from purely utilitarian standpoint that Magog is simply more powerful than 99% of heroes on Earth and it would be better for everyone if he was on their side), instead just basically antagonized and ostracized him for taking the most certain out of the bad situation the heroes only contributed to making worse and putting 100% of the blame for something that probably shouldn't have been treated like an issue at all (Superman had no issues with killing Imperiex and nobody tried getting on his case for that, so what makes this evil god different?).

>>154157332
They get no exposure.
Marvel and DC have a stranglehold on most distribution and unlike with anime/manga there aren't constant adaptions of stuff every season on tv to peruse and easily used sites to find what you want for stories

>>154157522
>>154157526
I think it does say something that there are people who think David is in the right despite the fact that rather than trying to stop Darkseid, trying to rescue any of the downed, or simply even retreating to get helped, his first thought was to kill someone helpless and act like it’s a great victory instead of a desperate and ill-conceived plan based on just spiting Darkseid. And that rather than going “okay, I took a life, but I’m not sorry because we had to do it”, David’s reaction was to throw a melty over nobody wanting to give him a pizza party.

That and he didn’t consider what would have happened if he had guessed wrong, like killing Gog just released the anti-life equation and given Darkseid what he wanted.

>but he didn’t know that could have happened
Just like he couldn’t have known how far out his allies were or if either of the Supermen would have gotten back up to kick Darkseid’d ass, but if we’re going with assumptions might as well go all in.

>Writer of the comic posts anonymously online to defend his work

>>154157639
You wish. The fact Spectre shows up to go “sorry guys but this was all pre-ordained to happen to ensure” kind of makes it risible and contrived by default, this bantering is just for fun.

>>154157549
>They get no exposure.
But Marvel and DC somehow do? Give me a fucking break. No comics get real mainstream exposure. If you whine about wanting something different why are you incapable of doing the bare minimum of research?

>>154157639
You know, this whole “Someone disagrees with me? They must be the writer of the comic!” thing that people now keep doing regularly is rather tiresome. If you can’t write anything intelligent why bother even posting.

>>154157428
It was a once in a life time moment.
Batman consciously chooses to kill Darkseid because all free will, freedom, life was about to end.
With a gun, the very item that created Batman that day in Crime Alley.
Poetic irony and he died doing so too.

>>154157666
You're posting on 4chan, the comic & cartoon board of 4chan, the MODERN comic & cartoon board of 4chan.

Get over yourself.

>>154157656
>But Marvel and DC somehow do?
Yes. They have made it into the lexicon. People say kryptonite or spidey sense or batmobile or fucking whatever all the time. Everyone knows what slop like omni man or homelander is based on.
Somehow you are forgetting the constant capeshit movies that have been happening for like 20 years as well.
People don't want read them because they suck and are shallow, vapid experiences. Not for lack of exposure like most western shit.
The only graphic novels I found and liked I found by complete fucking chance and have never heard anyone talk about them outside of that, but I constantly see discussion on a huge plethora of manga, LNs, and anime online because like it or not they get way more exposure from discussion, adaptions, etc. and you can pirate them much easier. Not to mention they don't constantly cross reference other series like some faggot encyclopedia. Faggots don't want to admit how nepotistic the western industry is and how generic it and samey it all is, nor do they want to talk about how it is a blatant arm of propaganda because it invariably leads to the same couple of Jews and we can't talk about them because something something me mum died in the Holly. Tell these kikes in charge to not just hire the people they know and give new series a chance and you solve many issues but Hollywood is just one giant synagogue complete with child abuse rings so it will never fucking happen.
It is pathetic that Japs which have basically elder worship can get more new blood in and give more people a chance than the so called diverse west who just wants propaganda instead of actual story diversity because yids hate it when the west produces actual culture or when it comes from an outgroup

>>154157549
>and unlike with anime/manga there aren't constant adaptions of stuff every season on tv

That is just wrong. In the past ten years there’s constantly been comic book with tv show adaptations even beyond DC and Marvel’s superhero stuff.

The Walking Dead and its several spinoffs
Invincible
Sweet Tooth
Sandman
Dead Boy Detectives
Lucifer
Outcast
The Boys
The Beauty
Riverdale
Preacher
Umbrella Academy
Winona Earp
Resident Alien
Wednesday
Snowpiercer
DMZ
The Tick
Lock & Key
Deadly Class

Sex Criminals is getting a show soon

>>154157712
If you’re such a delicate little flower that you can’t handle people calling your views dumb without resorting to screaming that the other person must be the author themselves then you shouldn’t even bother posting here. This isn’t an echo chamber, you fucking loser. People are capable of forming views and opinions that differ from yours without it needing to be corporate shills

>>154157763
>DC and Marvel’s superhero stuff
Subtract all the superhero stuff in general from that list, and also subtract all the shows that the showrunners randomly just do their own shit and shit the bed even if they have material that is good.
If I wanted to get someone into weeb shit I wouldn't just list shounen or shows that stop being faithful and start sucking out of nowhere, I would ask what they were into then if they don't answer definitively genres they want I would give a wide variety of different things. I can already see at least 3 different cape shit shows there and I don't even fucking know most of these. There is probably more.
It isn't enough to list shit. You have to list good shit. And yes, Hollywood kikes are at fault for only adapting goyslop as well

>>154157787
The only one 'screaming' and raging is you, what is even setting you off so badly?

>>154157666
If two people write similar retarded dialogue then it's not a stretch. Plenty of /co/ creators post here, especially the midwits and retards who are too sunk cost to see the reality of the situation. Only midwits could give a fuck about and defend the state of western entertainment.
Like it's funny, this season for anime literally nothing interested me, but next season tons of stuff looks great. I never get depressed when there is nothing good for weeb stuff since not only can I go back, but they pump out a lot so eventually there will be great stuff, and then I compare it to the west which is a fucking desert

>>154157718
That’s just pop culture zeitgeist, not exposure where you know the specific titles and what is being published at any given moment and what types of comics exist

>>154152279
People still not get that even if the plot is from Alex Ross(is obvious that the preacher or the Superman class who is a call out from Miracleman, is from Ross and not Waid), many of the stuff is obviously from Waid, that's why there is no Lois or Dick Grayson is Robin.
And even if I'm more a Messner's guy , Waid Flash is great, Return of Barry Allen has a great character developmen. Only problem with Messner and Waid is that outside Abrakadabra and Grodd, the rogue gallery was mostly new(Same problem post crisis superman had)

>>154157790
>Those don’t count because I decided they don’t

Oh here we go again with this same bullcrap where you weeb dick suckers act like any of that shit matters one iota to your average tv viewer

>>154149897
Batman's just upset that Joker didn't put out last night.

>>154157808
Talk about being delusional. Nobody cares about this place anymore.

>>154157808
Oh you’re a bitchass loser who just comed here whine like a baby? You should make that username so it’d be easier to ignore your posts

>>154157501
>variety
NTA, but while I agree, variety by DC has a different meaning. They can both eat and keep their cake by reimagining their big names in weird AUs. What did that amount to? Bombshell, zombies, vampires, that one medieval fantasy where Bruce and Clark are brothers, and now Absolute. All these naturally received coverage/traction because of the oddity or the visual novelty. Then it fades away because they understand nothing about the genres they're aping and still operate on capeshit logic. There's barely a story or concept in those. All they care about is showing the next design, the next reinterpretation of established characters, to trend on X and maybe sell expensive figurines.

>>154157871
They “fade away” because the superhero comic audience stops caring because it’s not new anymore and it ultimately doesn’t “matter” because it’s not in main continuity and that is what superhero audiences care about. Everything has to “matter” even though it makes no sense and nothing genuinely matters, it’s fiction.

And why would any of those series need to exist longer than couple of years? Isn’t the manga crowd always complaining nothing ends? Well those don’t so boom, you got your ending.

>>154149897
I hate the way superheroes are written. Bunch of moral fags always on their high horse about never killing. What right do they have to judge others? Should every cop that had to shoot someone who was a threat now be judged by Batman and Superman as the ultimate law and order?

>>154157938
Every cop shooting needs to be investigated and judged whether or not it was necessary and justified. Masked vigilantes don’t have any of that accountability.

>>154157938
Oh no, the two biggest proponents of “don’t kill if you have any other options” are unhappy someone chose to kill when there were other options. Who could have seen this coming?

>>154157852
>comed

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>>154157838
>Oh here we go again with this same bullcrap where you weeb dick suckers act like any of that shit matters one iota to your average tv viewer
I'm just telling you my own standards for it to be an adaption and not some director's fanfiction. What, you want me to lower my own standards? I mean, this is you shilling shit to me that is supposedly non mainstream adaptions right? Hell, I didn't even say to list good or recent ones only which would have completely ass raped you and what many people WOULD ask even if the recent part doesn't matter to me.
Point being if that is your list with even those few limitations, that is just pathetic. I would love for western animation to be good again and for comics to be good ever since they basically never have been, but it is held back by retards like you who just pretend there isn't a problem with shit writers, directors going rogue, massive nepotism, market stranglehold, politicization, trash variety in genre, samey art, etc.
>>154157824
Sure bud. The countless movies are not exposure. Yeah. Gotcha.
>>154157845
>>154157852
lmao touched a nerve huh?
>>154157871
Those amount to nothing more than gimmicks in the end, and as you say, are just more capeshit with how they end up.
I think the fact that it all just amounts to multiverse shit is the ultimate interest killer. You just know anything connected to that retarded trope is going to have literally no stakes because some completely other random writer can just do whatever they want and retcon shit from other stories too. I do admit sometimes one can get in the mood for lowbrow stuff like capeshit, but in my case I just watch animated shit for that then never touch it again for years and I basically never watch anything """serious""" because it is so immature and shallow in how it handles things. Basically all the capeshit I like is animation and is almost pure camp like Brave and the Bold. I could never imagine getting invested in every single multiverse slop comic.

>>154158064
>I'm just telling you my own standards for it to be an adaption and not some director's fanfiction
Or for it to actually interest me.

>>154158064
And your standards mean nothing

>>154149897
>>154150344
> Because we simply traded one killer for another
This is fucking brain damaged.
Killing to save lives in danger is factually not a hundred million light years close to being morally equivalent to maliciously killing innocents or being mass genocidal as both Gog and Darkseid were.

New 52 Superman ripped Doomsday in half.
WW, Aquaman, Hawkman & Martian Manhunter have all killed sentient beings in far less dire circumstances.

>>154149897
> you took the easy way
Which is morally superior to the hard way because the lives at stake are less at risk. I see it as straight up grossly selfishly negligent to do things the hard way that is less likely to succeed just to keep your hands/image clean.

>>154150803
>who basically set the precedent that this is about "winning" rather than saving lives
THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME!

>>154158114
>New 52 Superman ripped Doomsday in half.

And it’s well established Doomsday can’t die.

>>154158109
k
Have fun playing the white knight for western media with that attitude and literally never convincing someone who isn't already a part of the capeshit cult to partake
This is exactly why the west is stagnating culturally. Retards with sunk cost for decaying cultural products just have to defend the megacorps and nepotists in charge at all costs because muh legacy characters and muh legacy media. Whipped dogs, the lot of you, but too dumb to run from the whip and into freedom where there is more than 1 genre

>>154157938
They are literal propaganda pieces about how the status quo must be upheld at all costs, so no shit there is a massive issue of hypocrisy.

>>154158114
>Which is morally superior

It’s not.

>>154158138
You too, I hope all that endless smug whining and thinking everything sucks all the time for nonsensical reasons makes you happy. Seems miserable to me but each to its own.

>>154158149
Well I have other media to watch while waiting for western animation to collapse and rise again like a glorious phoenix. Old stuff. Foreign stuff. Old and foreign stuff. I cannot imagine being someone like you and getting basically nothing good for years and years in a row like a starving dog begging his master for table scraps. Unless you are a picky eater and literally only like capeshit, bad writing, or shitty adaptions in which case it makes sense. But if you don't want that why stick to western shit at this point? It doesn't even do anything unique anymore unless you like faggot marvel quips

>>154149897
capeshit is so cringe lmao

>>154158169
>you can’t possibly enjoy things if I don’t

Someone really needs to get over their main character complex

>>154158114
>THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME!
They really aren’t. People don’t applaud the police for shooting at terrorists when they have hostages, they ask why the fuck they took that unnecessary risk.

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>>154158121
Nobody relevant in comics can die and characters outright acknowledge it, while in the same spiel advocating for fates they literally admit are worse than death, not realizing the irony of the situation in the slightest. Superman is also not realizing that John Stewart, who is standing right next to him, has a non-zero bodycount of Sinestro Corpsmen (and not only them) that he killed without any moralizing or someone else giving him shit for that.
If anything, people being unable to die provides a good argument for killing fuckers. Sure, they will come back some day, but until then they'd be out of the board and not causing problems.

>>154158199
What do you get out of western shit besides the recognizable characters? You didn't answer.

>>154158223
> If anything, people being unable to die provides a good argument for killing fuckers. Sure, they will come back some day, but until then they'd be out of the board and not causing problems
I would think the opposite in that it proves killing is not an effective punishment and that it’s better to keep your eye on their location at all times. Like in a prison

>>154158223
Source?

>>154158284
JLA Classified #3
>>154158283
You can just as well keep an eye on an immobile corpse, that would take less resources and will have a lower risk of the bad guy breaking out for whatever reason.

>>154158283
It is funny that things like that are suggested since it could be argued that such punishments are way more cruel than just killing. Doubly so for younger creatures who are otherwise invincible who are just condemned to lose their whole youth and have little chance to reintegrate to society, becoming a problem later on. Killing is sometimes a mercy and capeshit seems to not understand this often.
Depends on circumstance but you just know some faggot in the world can banish souls or something and thus this whole discussion about unkillable is retarded

>>154158297
Unless they’ve faked their death. Which has happened an incalculable amount of times as well, and you just gave the villain potential years to recover and get worse.

>>154158328
>Unless they’ve faked their death
So you make sure they didn't, and preferably don't execute them in a way that allows someone to fake their death or escape. And if they somehow managed to fake dying after all of that, and even the autopsy didn't uncover the fake, then who says they couldn't have faked getting imprisoned just as well?
Also somehow "they would come back" or "this might be a fake" never comes up when our valiant heroes do, in fact, decide to execute someone. In fact, they usually do so in hopes their execution is fucking permanent.

>>154158407
> In fact, they usually do so in hopes their execution is fucking permanent
And in your words, it isn’t, making it an ineffective punishment. So we’re back to square one there.

>>154158457
You have conveniently ignored the first half of the post

>>154151512
>Waid made Kingdom Come and gave us Wally West legendary run you tourist

How many bad comics is Waid allowed to write before you are going to write him off? Because I haven't seen a good comic out of him in TEN FUCKING YEARS.

>>154159127
Yeah just sweep the entire ocean floor next time someone disappears to waves.

>>154157938
>Should every cop that had to shoot someone who was a threat now be judged by Batman and Superman as the ultimate law and order?
I would unironically like to see that because they are giving Magog shit for killing Gog when throughout the country there are hundreds of cases a day of police officers just straight up killing citizens without a trial.

>>154157962
The problem in this context is that the heroes are crying because someone put down a cosmic threat. Understandable that you don't want vigilantes murdering criminals, because it can escalate local violence to unmanageable levels, but this tantrum is stupid. Superman at the very least knows better, batman has the trauma of his parents so him getting a bit mad about any killing is comprehensible, but deep inside he would also know that Gog getting killed was for the best.

But no, they start seething over Magog, as if a mortal human court could even judge a mad god

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Waid grew up with silver age DC so he's fully locked into "Heroes Never Kill EVER" even though Superman and Batman didn't start out that way. It's ironic that he considers the bowdlerized, more conservative versions to be the most legitimate when he's such a turbolib himself.

Actual retardation, and Superman shouldn't even be mad about the outcome. He should never be comfortable with killing, but he shouldn't act like it's some uncrossable line since the alternative was the fate of the entire universe for one powerful evil asshole that was going to be preyed upon by an even more evil and powerful asshole anyways.

Saving lives and keeping the innocent safe should be the priorities for superheroes, not the lives of those trying to ruin it, and it's stupid when writers try to force that on readers. Killing to end a threat on that scale should still have weight to its action, especially depending on the characters involved, but it shouldn't be treated as wrong.

>>154159726
>because someone put down a cosmic
threat.

He killed Gog that was not an immediate threat to anyone anymore. He basically murdered a hostage to send the kidnapper back home

>>154160456
A kidnapper that was only there because they basically showed up unannounced to his front door, to boot.

>>154160456
ah yes, hostage that previously mindraped every hero an Earth to wage a suicidal war on Darkseid

>>154149897
This thread motivated me to read this story. I haven't read anything else in this book (Batman/Superman: World's Finest), and my understanding is it's a different continuity, with somewhat different characterization. Or at least it seemed that way from the story itself.
It's worth pointing out, I think, because Superman was acting a lot more manic and irrational throughout it, freaking out about the guy who would become Magog (a kid he briefly had as a sidekick but was lost in the multiverse and ended up in the past of Kingdom Come, leading to this story), and about KC Superman's failure to save his friends in KC (the story is mainly a prequel to KC, but they briefly see the aftermath, with all the dead heroes),
So if they seem out of character and unreasonable, even for this kind of scene which is admittedly pretty common in capeshit, it's probably because that's the characterization of these specific versions.

Or Waid is just shit nowadays, which, yeah, actually that's it.

how many people has the joker killed now?

>>154160732
Bit of column A, but if column B. It’s why all of the Kingdom Come JLA were harping on about “setting a precedent” while the mainline Batman and Superman were far nastier to Magog over his decision to murder Magog. They basically tried to lecture him on how they need to try and save everyone if possible, but by now he’s old enough to think of himself as a peer and not a protege, and becomes angry and cynical enough to go off on his own to enact his own brand of justice which leads to the Kansas disaster later down the road.

Maybe I’m the wrong demographic cause I’m sympathetic to both Batman/Superman and Magog here, if only because Magog did have options other than killing that he notably didn’t consider, but it was a situation where there is no perfect solution and killing Gog did at least stop Darkseid from killing them all. If it wasn’t just a prequel to Kingdom Come, it would probably be something with weighted consequences rather than “and that’s how the snake lists its legs” kind of explanation

>>154160732
World's Finest takes place in the past of the current iteration of the DC Universe.

>>154160989
Hmm. I thought it was sort of a modern version of pre-crisis Earth 2.

Did a cursory look and it seems it does set up things that paid off in normal continuity, so I guess you're right. So instead of characterization being off because it's another universe, it's off because they're younger?

>>154160962
> if only because Magog did have options other than killing that he notably didn’t consider,

They say that in the story but really, what options? Darkseid had just wrecked all the most powerful heroes effortlessly, including two Supermans at once, and he was moments away from ripping the Anti-Life Equation out of Gog. Wait for (most likely ineffective) reinforcements to arrive, and in the meantime Darkseid gets the power to dominate all of existence.

Magog did the only real thing anyone could do. It's Wanda killing Vision to stop Thanos from getting all the stones, except not consensual.
The worst you can say about Magog is that he gloated about it.

And man, fuck it, the no kill rule has always been only about humans. I don't know if it has happened to these characters at that point in continuity, but in many instances Batman and Supes have been less concerned about the ethics and morality of killing beastly creatures, aliens, and strange preternatural beings.

>>154149897
Writers seriously fucking misunderstand Batman not killing. Batman doesn't want to kill HIMSELF because he has distaste and trauma, but while he believes criminals can be redeemed he wouldn't fucking cry a river if a random police dude shot the Joker
In fact the best option would be for Gotham to legally use the death penalty
Batman isn't a mega pacifist who believes that everyone has good and can be turned good, he simply won't kill but he has no issues with others killing criminals in self defense or when justified

>>154161228
>Magog did the only real thing anyone could do
Frankly, the more people insist that as some kind of matter of fact rather than an assumption, the more I disbelieve it and think people came into this wanting to read Batman and Superman as being in the wrong

>>154158121
They established that by having Doomsday come back from the time Superman killed him, yes. I don't think anyone would've given Clark shit if Doomsday stayed dead.

>>154150465
To be fair "Batman's last act is to shoot Evil Itself with a gun to save existence" is one of those poetic narrative things. The whole point is that Batman begins AND ends with a gun.

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>>154151378
Because someone finally paid attention to what Morrison set up in Multiversity: Darkseid splits his essence and attention between all 52 worlds of the Multiverse. Whenever he choses, he can focus his actual attention and that makes him the actual powerhouse he is always implied to be. When he jobs to a baby Justice League or Superman alone, that's because that's Darkseid using 1/52nd of his full effort.

>>154155374
Those things are all an extension of him, though. His whole thing is that he controls everything under his will alone.

The man did actually win at the end of Kirby's stories. He's no slouch.

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>>154161278
>but while he believes criminals can be redeemed he wouldn't fucking cry a river if a random police dude shot the Joker
Are you SURE about that? Because Joker managed to force a stalemate with Batman by threatening blow his own brains out AND IT WORKED

>>154156776
We're not talking about global sales. Demon Slayers total US sales are what outsold the entire American comic book industry.

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>>154157938
Never forget that THE Perfect Earth was the one where Batman killed all the supervillains after Joker killed Jason Todd.

>>154158064
>Those amount to nothing more than gimmicks in the end
Pretty much. Variety is a gimmick at DC.
>multiverse shit is the ultimate interest killer.
I mean-- just don't tie it to that and let that short story have stakes. AUs shouldn't be shackled by the same problems than a forever on-going that is doomed to loop and change writer. I agree that capeshit officially stopped having stakes when death became reversible (multiverse being one way to achieve that), which makes this "moral" hang-up about "killing" even more retarded than it already is. But The ultimate killer here remains the bad writing and the writer being unable to do anything but serve the same slop with a different skin.
> I could never imagine getting invested in every single multiverse slop comic.
People who do are more the exception than the rule.

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>>154150226
Yeah, it's just fundamentally stupid at every angle. The very nature of cape comics makes killing pointless anyway. Any character that tries to kill and make a big deal out of it just ends up being a bloodlusted strawman at best; any character that tries to make a big deal out of NOT killing just looks like a dopey strawman at best.

There's no winning here because there's no actual moral debate to begin with. Punisher is no closer to making NYC any safer than Spider-Man is. Batman is no closer to making Gotham safe than say Red Hood. It's almost nihilistic on a meta level.

>>154150148
yep, comic book morality is completely retarded.

>>154161278
Didn't Gotham Central explain that the only reason why no cop has killed The Joker is that they're terrified of what Batman would do to whoever did it?

It's funny people blame the no-kill rule and not the writter's incompetence to read previous comic runs where both Superman and Batman have no qualms with killing Darkseid.
Come on, Bruce suggested to Clark to kill Lex Luthor in Public Enemies.
Bruce even shot Darkseid and Superman practically killed him with a thought machine

>>154163218
The cop-out for those is that Darkseid became entropy itself, so they didn't kill him.

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>>154163166
Rucka demonstrated that Joker is protected by plot armor. Maggie emptied an entire magazine into him, he was fine.

>>154162789
I remember this, this was right after he killed the bride, groom, the bridesmaids, and groomsmen while Batman was still in the room, and Batman just complies by kneeling with Joker. It's shit like this that makes the hardline no-kill stance making heroes look nutless and weak rather than principled.

>>154163387
There is a Demon slumbering beneath Gotham(which is now the City itself) which keeps him alive because he thinks The Joker is fucking great.

>>154163777
what if Joker is removed from Gotham
as in, relocated to somewhere else

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>>154163777
>A demon slumbering beneath Gotham
Which one? Dr. Hurt, Barbatos, or Doctor Gotham?

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Decades later, and Waid is STILL seething over Cable.

>>154164000
What's Cable got to do with Waid being the next biggest Silver Age fanboy after Morrison and Johns?

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>>154150226
Yeah, writers think they are taking comic characters to the philosophical limit with no kill rule, but actually that shit is a stupid paradox that should never be approached. What good does it do to have Joker kill thousands of people and Batman punches him a few times and drags him to Arkham so Bats can feel morally superior?

>>154164024
Magog IS Cable, anon.

The old silver age rules made them not kill and kind of transform DC heros into myths instead of stories about real people.
Its shifted back to "realism" and now the old rules contrast with how "people" would act.

I don't mind the no kill rule in modern times if the villains aren't killing hundreds of people. If Batman wants to take the Joker in alive from robbing a bank then fine, but if the Joker has killed thousands at that point then it becomes absurd. How do you even rehabilitate a god like Gog?

>>154164000
And I thought it was just Ross.

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>>154164347
I'm honestly mad at myself for never getting the direct parallel. I was obviously aware that the whole series was a critique on 80s/90s antiheroes, but... goddamn; how did I miss THAT?

>>154165717
To be fair, Gotham didn't blow up on a quarterly schedule like it does nowadays. Joker's sprees used to just be poisoning to water system or gassing a banquet; he'd make get 7-8 people before Batman got him, if he killed anyone at all. Now EVERY villain kills thousands in one night until Batman pulls off the greatest plan ever, utilizing every Bat-Ally ever written.

Come to think of it, since No Man's Land, what's the longest Gotham's gone without some mega event effecting the whole city?

>>154157675
>Poetic irony a
A gun took his life away from him and now a gun is going to save the entire Multiverse including his new family.
I miss writing like this.

>>154168139
Yeah that's really issue. In the Silver age the villains were as limited by the comic code as the heroes so their plan was usually stopped before anyone got hurt, if it wasn't just some crazy robbery scheme. But once it got "for serious people for real guys" and they were allowed to kill people on page again suddenly every villain was killing dozens of people every caper while the heroes were forced to stick to to their usual morals because it was baked into the medium at this point. Hence you have what we have now. Like nobody gave Batman 66 grief over not killing Romero's Joker because in general he didn't really kill anyone.

>>154168203
Not to mention that the whole "Arkham's Revolving Door" wasn't really a thing. Supervillains were treated like the Saturday Morning Cartoon villains they are. Why is Joker out of jail? Because he's the bad guy for this episode; don't think about it.

>>154167055
Ross doesn't have a thing against anything post-70s on Marvel, unlike with DC.

>>154157428
>>154157463
>>154157675
wait wasn't that not Batman? I remember something like that was a fake Batman that pulled the trigger and died and the real batman went back in time in some kind of rocket

>>154169980
The real Batman shot the bullet and got sent back in time. The fake one got his corpse used to fake his death

>>154158114
>Because we simply traded one killer for another
he was speaking in terms of mindset not kill count

>>154170416
We are all equal but some are more equal then others.
I see.
I see.

>>154170420
It's one thing to tearfully shoot a hostage as it's the only option you think possible and regret that it had to be done versus HEY LOOK HOW EPIC AND COOL I AM I SAVED THE DAY I'M AWESOME OH THAT HOSTAGE I SHOT WHO CARES I WON

Intent matters and is what can make the difference between two "equal" actions.

>>154170427
It's a story.
It can have any intention that you want.
I am attacking the very idea of it overall.
Batman and Superman have both allowed many people to die from not stopping menaces that should have been put down permanently.

Them getting on a high horse EVER is bullshit. This story should not have been made and they damned sure should not have been the ones to pass out the morality lessons.

The motherfucker who killed doomsday instead of leading him into space and stranding him there. And the motherfucker who watched his son be murdered by Joker and brought the joker back to life.
Fuck that.

>>154170446
classic motte and bailey

>>154170466
Elaborate.
Two men who kill and two men who will let millions die to not dirty their hands and have a guilty conscience seem to be pissy because he's celebrating the thing he's done instead of showing performative guilt.

>>154170480
>performative

who is magog

>>154149897
Didn't both these moralising faggots each kill Darkseid separately during Final Crisis?
Is Magog just not allowed to make the same hard hero choices?

>>154156405
Shounen aren't known for being super heavy and complex, but even something like Jujutsu Kaisen treats the question of murder and the value of life in a more interesting manner than the pages OP posted do.

>>154160456
He killed a nuclear scientist to disable the launch codes of an atomic bomb for a while.

>>154170446
>>154170480
So you’re basically angry at two superheroes for being handicapped by editorial reasons. Just like every superhero who has ever existed.

That explains why you’re so behind Magog. You don’t think he’s even right, you just use him as a proxy to get on your own high horse regarding Batman and Superman, two of the biggest finger waggers who existed to the point they lecture themselves on the regular.

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>>154170706
Reminder that Batman knowingly drove Composite Superman into suicide because "there was no other way" and "he was too powerful for us to handle".

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>>154171567

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>>154171577
At least Superman here looks like he got caught off guard and wanted to stop him from ripping himself in two. Batman didn't give a shit and then gave some shitty excuses. Same man who chewed out Magog because "we had options" btw.

>>154171584
Yeah that’s totally the same thing as killing a third party to get the villain to leave

>>154171584
>no other way to DESTROY
But there were other ways! They could have somehow figured out how to depower and imprison him! Instead, they chose the easy way out!

>>154171595
Gog wasn't a third part you disingenious faggot. He was a mad god who directly started the whole problem and would go back to being a problem for the whole planet after he woke up (if Darkseid didn't show up). He was not "a hostage", "a third party" or "a helpless victim", he was a fucker who was only slightly less dangerous than Darkswid from the PoV of heroes of that Earth.
The fact that you keep peddling this narrative despite being repeatedly corrected (and ignoring it every time) does lend credence to that anon above who thought there's a writer of the comic itt trying to defend his drivel.

>>154171595
This is worse, actually. They had a ton of alternate options of taking care of Composite Superman without killing him. They had no options to win the day without Gog dying, however.

>>154171923
>They had no options to win the day without Gog dying, however.

Yea they did

>>154171909
Gog was already defeated and Magog murdered him because it was convenient.

>>154171567
>>154171577
>>154171584
Wow this is really fucking stupid.

>>154171966
Gog was about to die at Darkseid's hands, Magog simply prevented Darkseid from being the one to deliver the last blow and thus becoming more powerful.

>>154173115
Given that his staff blast was enough to kill a god, he probably could have shot Darkseid instead and gotten results. Like, he had the dude right in his crosshairs there and old stone face was daring him to try something Instead, dude chickened out, shot Gog, and then tried to act like he won instead of pussing out.

>>154173115
And him killing a helpless person instead of Darkseid makes Magog a hero?

>>154173285
Darkseid was far more powerful than Gog and proved that by dickslapping the same people who beat Gog without even blinking. It would not have done shit.

>>154173524
How narratively convenient that he's powerful enough to kill a guy on par with Darkseid yet not powerful enough to even so much as fight Darkseid. Fuck off with that shit.

>>154173293
Yeah actually. It does. Magog is a greater hero than any of these judgemental, useless, idiots. You expect for people to weep over that depraved deity being sacrificed to stop an even more depraved deity from becoming unstoppable? Stupid.

>>154173699
Magog isn’t a hero at all

>>154173699
Magog was also a coward who didn't even try to fight Darkseid or try to save Gog from Darkseid, and whined like a spoiled little princess angry at not getting daddy's love when Darkseid didn't so much as act phased at losing a piece of the Anti-Life Equation. It'd be like watching Gotham's latest vigilante seeing the Joker holding a bus full of nuns hostage, blowing the bus full of nuns up himself just to keep that leverage out of Joker's hands, and then still letting the Joker get away without a scratch. That's not a hero, that's a grade-A loser.

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>>154173590
>on par with Darkseid
Did you even read the comic? Or the post you were replying to? There was no "on par" with Darkseid. Gog was leagues weaker than Darkseid. As was shown by how League faired vs Gog compared to them vs Darkseid and said directly by Superman himself ("as strong as you are, Darkseid and his forces are unimaginaly more powerful"). And Gog even agreed with that, because his whole plan was to go fight Darkseid and die in glorious combat. Because he KNEW HE HAD NO CHANCE OF WINNING EVEN WITH ALL EARTH'S SUPERHEROES ON HIS SIDE.

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>>154174236

>>154174236
Again, how narratively convenient that they treat Gog as some big all-encompassing god tier treat, yet the same blast that can atomize a fucking god is somehow magically not enough to so much as push Darkseid a few feet back?

Again, fuck off with that shit. The "he had no other options" thing is shit, cause we don't even see him consider those options in the first place, and even then if you're throwing out blasts that are enough to kill proto-gods then you're at least strong enough to give Darkseid a nosebleed. Your attempts to glaze Magog here just aren't going to work, retard.

>>154173855
>tl;dr seething bitch
Based Magog would kill Luthor unlike Superman's bitchass.

>>154174524
Nice try, Magog, but nobody’s jerking you off here

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>>154174524
>10 year after everyone stans for Magog

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>>154175144
So right sister! If we kill mass murderers we're no better than them! We have to let them go all the time! Think of the poor mass murderers! Kill one mass murderer to stop another mass murderer? I'm too virtuous for that! There's a better way™! If you kill a killer the number of killers in the world stays the same! We must be better men! Wait what are you doing with that kni-ACK! Oh no...the evil man I saved just stabbed me...and exploded Metropolis...at least...I was a better man...that's worth the millions of lives...

>>154175290
>pushed back against once
>melts down like a teenage girl on social media
Explains why you idolize Magog

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>>154175290
>imagine not getting that the whole point of Kingdom Come is that neither the old Silver Age morality nor Dark Age brutality works in the end.

>>154175362
And what is the solution? I think killing an objectively bad person to stop another objectively bad person from doing objectively worse shit is pretty warranted. But you chimpanzees seem to insist that it's actually bad and that Magog should have just magically devised a magical solution that would magically let an objectively awful person live because it's like immoral to kill an objectively bad person or something.

It's really easy to make this immediately understandable. Replace Gog with The Joker. Are we going to pretend Magog is wrong for killing The Joker to stop Darkseid from doing more awful shit? How would you justify that claim to...anyone? Let's do a simple hypothetical here:
>The Joker, a well known super terrorist, replaces Gog here.
>This event is streamed to the entire Earth. The entire thing. Including the Justice League's reactions to it.
Do you think that Earth is going to sympathise with the Justice League or side with them? I'm inclined to say no. Because people would have wanted Joker dead for a very long time as is and would be equally baffled by the JLA's response. Your response might be "That's why they aren't the superheroes. Only the best of the best can be heroes." At that point why is it that an insanely tiny minority of people are trying to dictate 'right and wrong' for 99.9999% of all life in the universe? If the vast majority would side with Magog then how is anything the JLA does in response to him 'justice' or 'correct'?

If you claim the JLA is still in the right. Then at that point we're not talking about superheroes. We're talking about self-righteous fools that force their own morality onto a world that disagrees. They do not do anything in service of the people. They are heroes in service to themselves.

>>154175606
>natter natter natter
Let's boil it down to a simple question then

Why was Gog's first instinct not to look for help in fighting Darkseid, in running to save himself, or running to save Gog to stop Darkseid's plan?

Or better yet, why was his immediate decision at a do or die moment to not fight off the aggressor in the room, but slaughter the person that had no means to protect themselves? Forget replacing Gog with Joker. How about replace Gog with an innocent child that they were there to protect? Would you call him heroic for killing the child, rather than trying to save their life? What if it was two kids? Or a school? Or a nation? Does it only matter that the bad guy is "beaten"? Cause in this case, Darkseid wasn't beaten. He wasn't even inconvenienced. They literally showed up right at his doorstep with a gift that Magog then blew up in a desperate attempt to somehow spite Darkseid...which at best means nothing changed at all since Darkseid is completely unharmed, at worst means that Magog risked having Darkseid decide to stay and kill them all rather than just walk away. Would we be still praising him if his actions convinced Darkseid to stay and kill them all, rather than just give up and say things weren't worth his effort once the rest of the JLA showed up?

> If the vast majority would side with Magog then how is anything the JLA does in response to him 'justice' or 'correct'?
Appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy. If everyone voted for you to be killed off despite doing nothing to warrant it, then is it justice or is it just mob rule?

>If you claim the JLA is still in the right
They at least tried taking a swing at Darkseid. Magog did nothing to help until the moment that nobody could stop him, then tried to take credit for effectively cleaning up a mess they all were a part of.

>>154175362
But silver age morality did win out. Superman wavered twice, first when he decided to retire after most people supported Magog, then when he nearly killed Congress when he was mad about most of the heroes getting bombed. Keep doing the right thing and eventually things will work out is how it ends.

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>>154175606
Again, we're forgetting the lesson of Kingdom Come. Magog OBJECTIVELY saved the day by killing Gog and stopping Darkseid, but by being amongst the Justice League while doing so, he has set the dangerous precedent that killing for glory trumps the effort of trying to save the day as bloodlessly as possible.

It's not that the JLA is "right"; it's that seeing them merc a guy makes it seem like they can always just do it the easy way. It's like watching a rookie cop just blast a guy's brains out during a hostage situation. Sure; that could literally be the thing that stops the terrorist from blowing up the building, but now people (including new cops) will wonder why they don't always just kill the hostage.

Plus (not to pull a Morrison/Lee here), it only went down like this because that's how the story's written. If this was a Flash story, Wally would have already used the Speed Force and a time duplicate of Gog sans the Anti-Life Equation to trick Darkseid.

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>>154149897
fuck this bad comic trope writing and bullshit no kill to keep everyone alive for profits and rematches. this is why I do not buy this trash. fucking superman, bruces bitch lecturing while luthor is not in prison and metropolis not crime free.

why bruceseid has the planet hacked with oracle and scans you 24/7.


the same heroes who bother people thinking they *ARE* law? oh ho ho this shit sucks. bruce is not authority nor law nor morals and these shits *DARE* talk to a god this way? tch drop this human writer and fan fetish gods would be this weak. oh superbitch to bruce and bruce"god" showing up talking *THAT* way to a god taking out a god and you know divine laws applying and those 2 mortal not divines would get clapped into non-existence.

I cant tolerate this human writer and fan fantasy this would be a thing at all. oh and what was that the mortals would going to lose and a divine stopped a divine? you ment to say Thank you divine for saving us not this trash fantasy wank shit. bat wank? nah mortal delusion you can collar and own god wank. they do not answer to those they created and wrote the rules of reality.

trash fantasy all of this.

>>154175891
Don't you need to be over 13 to post here?

>>154174264
Nigga I don't care about your cope about narrative convenience and whatnot, fact of the matter, the story repeatedly made it crystal clear that Gog is nowhere near Darkseid in power, and also that Magog could only kill the former when he was already battered and incapacitated, before that his blasts weren't doing shit even when the rest of the League was helping him.
>not enough to so much as push Darkseid a few feet back
>kill proto-gods then you're at least strong enough to give Darkseid a nosebleed
Okay cool, David forces Darkseid a few steps back and gives him a nosebleed, sure. Then Darkseid looks at him, fries him with Omega Beams like he just did with Supermen and Shazam, and goes back to raping Gog after a second of inconvenience. Congratulation! You achieved nothing and doomed the universe! Round of applause to you, fucking idiot.

>>154175861
Not really? In the end, the old school heroes went public and proactively work with humanity instead of being reactive superheroes who only show up to save the day and then fuck off to do it all over again because they really didn't fix anything. They took the anti-hero stance of peace through any means necessary, but took the sane route of using their powers to functionally fix the work instead of shooting it until it stopped acting up.