SpOck is unironically the most interesting thing to happen to Spider-Man, and before they ruined him for no reason, was the only legitimately complex character in the entire IP. >b-but muh P-PetahNo. Spider-Books were always a soap opera with tights. And that was fine. But then they turned him into a manchild who sold his soul to the devil for a geriatric whore. That moment it all came down. SpOck had a genuine character arc. Octavius is genuinely a far more complex character, period.
Go to bed, Slott.
>>154216106Go to bed Dan.
Go to bed, Dan Slott.
>>154216106>What if She-Hulk was Ally McBeal?>What if Spider-Man was Doctor Octopus?>What if Silver Surfer was Dr. Who?You really should have taken that nepo job at Shell instead of becoming a cultural vandal Daniel.
I liked superior but I liked it because I didn't have an attachment going into it. If the same thing were done to a character I'm invested in by an equivalent villain in their rogues gallery I would hate it immeasurably. The arc would have worked far better done in another way without the disgusting body snatching imposterism.
You're part of why Peter has been made an IP mascot soulless shell of himself you fucking hack Slott.
>>154216177I was trying to re-read Spider-Man from the beginning, and when I got to Dr. Octopus's first appearance I realized I kind of hated the character now. Dan Slott ruined Doc Ock for me.
>>154216356Same thing happened to me with She-Hulk, I can't even look at her.
I liked Gage's run and was disappointed with how it ended, but I still think OP is a retard with shit taste
>>154216106
>>154216356I can't look at Doc Ock without thinking about how rapey Slott made him, complete with memory shredding horrible body snatching. He's no longer some fun narcissistic egomaniacal nerd in his underwater base, he's tainted in my eyes.
>>154216455Slott loves making characters rapey.
>>154216356Same thing happened to me, but during the whole Superior shit it was impossible to highlight the egregious caricature Slott was turning him into without just being drowned out by THE DIE IS CAST chanting.
>>154216470>they're making fun of a female character being mauled against her willYeah Slott, that sounds terrible.Anyone need a reminder what Peter was witness to screaming from inside his own body? Played for laughs also.
That's about 182.5 counts of rape by deception.Impressive!
>>154216565>>154216455This is the weird part for me. I liked Gage's run and anything Superior was in, like Team-Up or Daredevil, and I wasn't having this problem before. Only now I'm reading it and remembering stuff. Maybe it is due to the recent miniseries bringing back all those thoughts?
>>154216644Slott would not survive the early parts of Superior becoming more widely known, once again comic writers are 'saved' by the thing being a niche within a niche.It would be like Silk pheromones x 1000.
>>154216599https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SnuM7cRwww
>>154217004I will never understand how much of a deflated balloon for drama it was when Peter returned.Because the plot relies on everyone wearing a necklace of idiot balls, everyone he was close to failed to see the extremely obvious ruse. He should be in a state of rage and depression, not offering cookies to the Avengers. This should be the catalyst for his loner arc at least.
>>154217052If I where Peter I would make sure Otto could only drawn breath from the assistance of a machine.
>>154217004>Dramatization of Spider-Man editorial meetings.
Peter really is ground zero for the Great Replacement.
>>154217095Did Peter ever actually take Otto to task after he returned? Or is just some elephant in the room because Otto's lost his memories, and nothing in modern Spidey is handled with any emotional weight in an era of EVENTS.
>>154217163Everything about ASM makes more sense if you see Mephisto as being behind every editor.
>>154217206I dunno.I don't read apocrypha.Everything after Harras isn't canon.
>>154217241In a era of toyboxes, where the writer sees everything they have as disposable and nothing is sacred as nothing has weight, perhaps everything really must be apocypha.
>>154217264They had the sheer fucking hubris to think they could do ANYTHING with these characters and it would be fine.
>>154217264>>154217283Like you you tell normies that Spider-Man made a deal with The Devil, They don't believe you because it's so fucking retarded.
>>154217305You can actually see whatever respect or interest for comics die in their eyes when you mention the status quo, and how we got here.I swear we've lost so many possible newcomers through the usual Spider-Man door, because we have this giant steaming shit sliming the doorknob.
>>154217358I have a cousin that only reads old stuff, He won't touch or get near anything from the 2000's.
>>154216106You're a fucking moron because frankly, SpOck was neither Peter nor Otto in personality but some third plot-protected retard that only got away with his shenanigans because the writers had to intentionally drop everyone's iq by 100 points to enforce it until the finale where everything magically fell apart for Peter's non-triumphant return.>>154217206They handwaved it off by claiming that Peter technically never died in Ock's body, and that all his machine did was basically brainwash them into thinking they were the other. And yes, this is even with the whole "Ghost Peter" shit going on. So they just kind of ignored it. Though ironically, iirc in the comics Otto himself is far more angry about what happened than Peter because he remembers losing his memories over SOMETHING but he can't remember what.
>>154217403>They handwaved it off by claiming that Peter technically never died in Ock's body, and that all his machine did was basically brainwash them into thinking they were the other.That's retarded, it's only because Slott doesn't want to have technically killed the OG Spider-Man from the first ASM issue, and have made some homunculus ignoring matters of the soul/brain/whatever issues that a game like SOMA would raise.
>>154217438A machine being able to able to consume your memories, convert them into digital information, and then plug those memories into another body and your soul just happens to travel with it (how and why?) would be even more retarded. The way it worked out is the method that makes the most sense.
>>154217621No matter what they did it's retarded. OG Peter is dead and Slott killed him. The entire premise of Superior requires everyone in a world of psychics, hypnotists, clones and duplicates be handed an idiot ball. It should have been an else-worlds or alternate universe, not the OG where the ramifications have to be ignored to not trip up the next guys turn at the toybox.
>>154217662Reminds me of the death of personality in Babylon 5.
>>154216697It's a shame. It's literally motherfucking issue 2 this gets to insane levels and fucking Stegman drew it. Slott would get socially castrated if he did that now. I'm surprised it hasn't been digged up and put in front of social media again.
>>154217206TBF I didn't spend a dime on any of this shit I just read it on /co/ but I believe Superior ended with Otto going "I can't possibly beat Norman Osborn! Peter, you may have your body back!" and Peter's just like "thanks Otto, I'll take it from here!" and Peter's never beaten the shit out of Otto for almost raping MJ or essentially raping that dwarf girl
>>154216106You can only say that because they ended it. Now imagine if they kept Otto around. We would have had the same story repeated a dozen times by now.
>>154217095Yeah but we can't have Peter act like a normal human being anymore he has to be a wholesome boy who never loses his temper because that'd be problematic
>>154217916Or using Peters memories with MJ to jerk off.Or deleting Peters core memories as he begs him not to.Or making Peter watch as he uses his body to catfish women into bed.Or making Peter witness memories with Aunt May and Otto.Seriously, what is wrong with Slott? If this was going to amount to a serious confrontation is would be one thing but it's just one of those heavy hitting things nobody addresses which makes the ongoing a weightless joke.
So was this particular scene ever addressed or retconned? Because I feel like (what to the world looks like) Spider-Man murdering a guy with a gun in the middle of Grand Central Station in front of dozens of witnesses including many cops would be a huge deal that no one would ever forget.
>>154217241>Everything after Harras isn't canonLook, current Marvel sucks but let's not pretend Harras was good either
>>154217959Can't have young white men showing a micro crumb of sincere emotion. That might remind them that they're human.>>154217969Quesada literally turned Marvel into TMZ.
>>154217962>If this was going to amount to a serious confrontation is would be one thingThat's just it, there wasn't any point. There was no payoff, Otto just hands Peter back his body and all's forgiven. It's the same shit with Paul, they introduce this thing that they know will piss off readers but don't actually have any idea what sort of satisfying pay off there'd be to make it worth pissing off readers that much.
>>154218006>Quesada literally turned Marvel into TMZ.Okay but that doesn't mean that Harras's run of boring ass garbage was good
>>154217965She-Hulk destroyed a whole town & they didn't address it until years later, They don't care.
>>154218016Still better.Spider-ManShe-HulkBeastCaptain America Would still be respected to this day.
>>154218018Did they do the bullshit "AKSHUALLY she somehow did it in a way that didn't hurt or kill anyone" they pull with the Hulk?
>>154217962>Or using Peters memories with MJ to jerk off.>Jerking off another man's dickOtto's gross.
>>154218042Under Harras Spider-Man had Chapter One and the Byrne/Mackie relaunch which led to Daredevil becoming more popular than Spider-Man. Ironically under Harras the Spider-Man franchise was seen as a joke that only dumbass zombies still bought. The more things change, amirite?
>>154218066Yes. She only injured 70 people, She thought she killed one person but that was a convoluted framing plot, Oh and the guy who was there for the first gamma bomb was there and he blames himself for all gamma accidents. It's dumb.
>>154218082The entirety of the run is fetishy gross voyeurism.Slott kept pushing his fetishes until Silk finally did him in, no you can't introduce a pheromone emitting Asian waifu raised in a bunker who happened to be bitten by the same spider that was apparently on a biting spree Slott, you complete hack.If you're going to bring kink to comics, be a Claremont or Marston, not a Slott.
>>154218091No, You're just moving goalposts and trying to get a gotcha.What don't you understand about "SPIDER-MAN MAKES A DEAL WITH THE DEVIL" you don't understand? Is it the nuance or the subtlety?
>>154218122I believe Harras really should have pulled the trigger on "Mary Jane was never real" instead of having her killed in a plane crash.
>>154218110Uglier the writer is, the more sex obsessed and sex negative they are.A good chunk of Slott's books read like incel revenge fiction.
>>154218147>But HarrasShut the fuck up.You're so lucky you're hiding behind a screen because I would kick the shit outta you for being such a myopic cunt.
>>154218091>Ironically under Harras the Spider-Man franchise was seen as a joke that only dumbass zombies still bought.Yeah, it's hard to believe the other anon isn't trolling. Spider-Man under Harras saw the line decimated by the Spider-Clone Saga and then collapse into absolute shit like Identity Crisis (no, not that one, the 1998 one with Hornet, Prodigy, Dusk, and Ricochet). The late 90s were the absolute doldrums for Spider-Man, arguably the worst it's ever been. And that's kind of true of every part of Marvel in 2000 when Harras left. Onslaught and its aftermath wrecked the X-line, Avengers, and FF. Marvel was in a really bad place creatively at that time, the only bright spots were non-mainline stuff like Marvel Knights.
>>154218082Don't pretend you wouldn't also jack it to MJ in the same situation.
>>154218172Yeah, speaking as someone who was literally 12 at the time and Spider-Man was my favorite thing in the world the late 90s were a rough time for Spider-Man. I kept buying the issues hoping they'd get better. I'd see ads for the Marvel Knights stuff and was like 'well I wanna read that' but our local Waldenbooks never got them and I lived in buttfuck, Ohio where the closest comic store was a hundred miles away
>Unpaid Marvel interns have found the thread and now are sowing discord. Sigh...
Praise Quesada our Lord and Savior!
>>154218122?! I'm not saying Spider-Man is good now I'm just saying it was just as bad under Harras. Like, yeah, Spider-Man makes a deal with the devil is bad but so is killing Mary Jane in a plane crash, having Peter act like a fucking lunatic obsessing over her still being alive, everyone around him telling him he's being a retard and he just needs to get over his wife fucking dying horribly, and then literally living on the street. Oh and all of that taking a backseat to a literal who senator character that was more the main character of the books than fucking Spider-Man himself
>>154218166I don't know why you're arguing for Harras being better than Quesada when they were both strongly anti-marriage and Harras was the first editor to actually do something about it, killing MJ but in a way that would leave readers thinking she could still be alive, just like with the baby. Quesada brought her back only because he thought Peter being a widower was worse than being married. Had he stuck around long enough, Peter would have eventually accepted she was dead and moved on, dating other people like Jill Stacy, Gwen's dark-haired cousin-double.
>>154218269I hate to tell you this anon but every editor in chief since Shooter was trying to do away with the spider-marriage, it wasn't just Quesada. The only difference between the other attempts and Quesada's is Marvel got bought shortly after by Disney and really didn't have to worry about comic sales anymore so they could do whatever they wanted
>>154217965Tbf, if someone dumped 1 ton of shit onto Slott in the middle of grand central station they wouldn't notice anything different because the smell before of him standing there would have already caused a scene and grabbed attention.
>>154218283>Harras was the first editor to actually do something about itWrong, the whole point of the clone saga was to have Spider-Man be a bachelor again
>>154218274>>154218283Okay Spider-man was always stupid then.You convinced me.It's all one giant waste of time.Thank you.
>>154218293Yes I know Spider-Man's stupid, I've learned from the error of my ways.
>>154218293The biggest question is the coming generational change.A Spider-Office where Millenials and Gen Z who grew up with the marriage in all other aspects of the franchise and could not give less of a fuck about Silver Age manchild coddling.
>>154218303That was an unsuccessful attempt. DeFalco claims that it was always his intention to have it be a fake-out. Tom Brevoort claims otherwise so one of them is lying and I trust the DeFalco Tom more than Brevoort Tom. The idea of making it permanent came about with Budiansky when there were only Group Editors and no EiC, but that era didn't last too long and Harras took over the reins.
>>154218307>>154218317No, anon, Spider-Man was consistently great until the Clone Saga when Marvel suddenly decided things like character development were bad and tried to pull him back to being eternally high school age
Alright I'm taking a dump. On Spider-Man? No, Slott already did that. I'm dumping on Slott.
>>154218327Eeeehhh normally I'd agree but I think the backlash from One More Day made everyone involved in the Clone Saga change their tune. In The Life of Reilly there's zero indication it wasn't intended to be a permanent change they just wrote themselves into a corner by not coming up with a way for Ben to take over Peter's name and life.
>>154218355The books started to get bad shortly before then with Fingeroth being to blame. Only really good thing that guy did was greenlight JMD's Spectacular run.
>>154218293>>154218283>>154218274>marriage>widower>dating a cousin to get overYou, guys, sound like you're discussing Santa-Barbera, not action superhero adventure comics.
>>154218348I wonder if the OMD guys, even though they are so well insulated, are aware of just how badly they botched what they wanted to accomplish.Peter in all the other more successful, lucrative and popular iterations of the franchise is with MJ and generally getting on with the rest of his life as that's compelling, endless rehashes of the Silver Age is only appealing to a dwindling and dying minority ever increasingly isolated.Can you imagine pitching to some Rivals fan zoomer a modern ASM run?
>>154218362I feel like Slott manages to keep getting work at Marvel despite never meeting a deadline and being a sales vacuum because he's willing to be Brevoort's whipping boy and he takes that impotent frustration out on random people on social media.
>>154218373In LoR DeFalco said he was doing that thing he did with the Hobgoblin's identity where he concealed his true intentions from everybody.https://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/2008/03/part-9.html>Tom: Here's a secret - when I finally okayed the clone saga, I told Danny Fingeroth to build a backdoor into it. I said that I wanted to be able to bring Peter back as the real deal. But I didn't tell Danny everything. I believe that both comic book creators and comic book fans are a cowardly and superstitious lot. While the fans claim they want change, they tend to react negatively to it. So do most creators! With this in mind, I later updated Mark Gruenwald on our plans for the clone saga. Mark was my second-in-command, and the logical guy to succeed me. He and I agreed that Peter was the real guy, but that we would let the Spider-team try to convince the readers otherwise. If the Spider-creators succeeded, they would love the idea of the old switcheroo. If they failed, they'd be soooo harry that they had a backdoor. Either way, the readers were guaranteed a great story with a lot of unexpected twists.>Mark and I were hoping the Spider-crew could make Ben a viable character during his turn in the spotlight, and we planned to star Ben in his own monthly title after Peter returned. It was kind of like what I had already done with Thor and Thunderstrike - two very different titles based on a single concept. Of course, our plan went into the trash the day I got fired, and Mark wasn't picked to succeed me. This is the guy who both didn't immediately nix the marriage after Shooter got fired and who went on to write a long Spider-Girl run featuring an old married Peter, so it's not like he was totally against the idea of married Spider-Man. He's the reason it stuck around to begin with.
>>154218380>openly denigrating your chosen mediums lack of weight and how nothing matters, when you are always part of event comics saying NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME AGAINtm>>154218395>hello Hank Pym in a single panelI know hack gets thrown around a lot but HAAAAAAAAAA
>Marvel interns be handing out those black pills like parade candy.
>>154216106It was so bad that people thought everyone was taking stupid pills and one comic even joked about how they were all fooled.
I'm posting these Brevoort ones because "muh sales" is the end all be all cope of him and Slott. When that isn't true....
>>154218459>and then USM started printing money
>>154218474>>154218475Yes.
Slott is sitting there, watching, in the cuck chair.
It will be nice knowing this entire cadre of DiDio-like deadweight will be gone in a decade or max two, there IS a natural end even if its only time marching on.How will history remember this era between Clone Saga and whatever the fuck is next?
>>154216106The only good thing about this shitty disaster was Superior Foes
>>154218380Says the guy made She-Hulk into the modern Whore of Babylon.
Brevoort be throwin' people under the bus publicly and got the biggest most widest smile on, filled with 100% genuine amusement and whimsy.
A real meeting of the minds.
>>154216106I absolutely agree, it was refreshing seeing a spiderman that wasn't a massive loser taking it in the ass by everyone around him. This should have just been an elseworld story so it might have had a continuation or decent conclusion I stead of ending with him losing in such a contrived way.
>>154218601>Zeb: Yeah um....boss....I got a lot going on right now and I know I said I'll put my divorce onto these pages but I think I gotta take a break and stop this run....>Brevoort: Yeah sure whatevs...>Also Brevoort: Pic rel
>>154218438>Here's a secret - when I finally okayed the clone saga, I told Danny Fingeroth to build a backdoor into it. I said that I wanted to be able to bring Peter back as the real deal. But I didn't tell Danny everything. I believe that both comic book creators and comic book fans are a cowardly and superstitious lot. While the fans claim they want change, they tend to react negatively to it. So do most creators!This is genuinely a really smart way to handle a big change being made to a corporate character like Spider-Man instead of just doing what they're doing now and forging along on a path literally no one wants the character on
>>154218626Goddamn Brevoort just sounds so fucking seething in these twitter posts, why do people do this? Do they not see how fucking childish they sound? Just shut the fuck up, you don't have to go on social media and post shit
>>154218626I think the big difference between AbsBats/Bats and UltSpidey/AmzSpidey is that both Bats books have pretty good word of mouth and a generally positive reception with fans. Whereas with the Spidey fans...does anyone have anything positive to say about Amazing Spider-Man since Wells took over?
>>154218676Well in a way, it helps expose how utterly bankrupt creatively they are, paints them as the people Evan Dorkin painted as losers, and it shows how comics don't matter if these people are in charge and behave this way. It's equivalent to all other interactions other forms of entertainment we have had whether it be the 2016 Ghostbusters, or various examples in vidya. Like Insomniac Spider-Man.It alienates the normie from modern slop like Slott slopp.
>>154218714If Slott had Silk and Peter banging every other issue in a pheromone induced haze, people would remember his run as one of the greatest.
>>154218714I really have no idea what Slott's trying to say here. So because the guy took the panel from a weird guy's site the guy's post is invalidated? That's literally 4chan-tier arguing skills.
>>154218626If they are already giving up the ghost on Dead Language and trying to sweep it through ANV now, imagine what happens when next gens Claremont comes in looking for scalps.
>>154218755You stupid coomer.
>>154218755Nope. Stop falseflagging to make others look like coomers and that's all we care about when this thread is for shitting on Marvel for not caring about the writing. Besides, Marvel used to be a better class of coomers like Claremont who put all his waifus in 19th Century lingerie.
>>154218804We should do what Dumbing of Age threads do and just redo the entirety of runs with shitposts.It'll be the most fun I've had reading Spidey in years.
>>154218804Is this the same issue where Norman just sorta ran away from Peter and he's just like 'eh, he's too far away to chase, I'm sure he'll be fine'?
>Self-insert number 2 tell fans to fuck off.Subtle Dan, Subtle.
>>154218778Yeah that's why I posted it. Slott's arguments are shit when you break them down and put in front of his fat fucking face. If you don't allow them to shout you down or deflect to illogical shit, then you end up like >>154218791 where you verbally and intellectually rape them with words and they are left mindbroken.
>>154218827It was because Liz Allen "accidentally" turned Peter's anal vibrator on and made him goon too hard to catch Norman.
>>154218883I just don't get how any company would be cool with one of their employees acting like this on social media. Like it's one thing if some guy who works at Walmart posts something stupid, just because he works there doesn't mean he represents the company but people like Slott and Brevoort when they're posting about their work they're representing the company and they're acting worse than the fans they're trying to dunk on. If I was Disney I'd be embarrassed as all fuck that these people are representing my asset and acting like this
>>154216106NoNo it wasn'tI hope marvel doesnt do it again, sure the "writing" was good but it wasn't pster and I just didn't care so I stopped reading I just dint care about these retarded gimmicks anymore, now I coukd hear something like "mj is the new hobgoblin now", and i just wouldnt fucking care since its gimmick shit for sales
>>154218883Reminder when Willingham called out Slott and Brevoort's shitty behavior towards fans all Brevoort could shoot back with was "oh yeah well you got this guy's assistant from sixty years ago wrong! So there!"
>>154219072
>>154219049In my youth I was one of those faggots on Twitter and I gave Slott a lot of shit over Superior and Amazing 700 and that was the criticism I used, I said it's just a fucking gimmick not an actual story, it's something to whip idiots like me into a frenzy and Slott was like 'no, it's a story!' well, Slott, stories try to have a satisfying conclusion and Superior's conclusion was Otto going 'eh, never mind, I don't think I wanna be Spider-Man anymore' and Peter saying 'Thanks for giving me my body back Otto, I'll stop Norman!' then this happened >>154218924>mj could be hobgoblinC'mon anon Marvel wouldn't be that lame. She's Venom now.
>>154218999Is that real ? what the fuck does Dan not get it?
>>154218601In this case I don't think anyone likes Slott and are tired of his shit so much they don't even try to hide it.
>>154219128Yes it's real. Stan being cheeky as always but he's not wrong. Slott's not going to whine about what Stan said about him but instead roll with it. He tends to not talk back to others in the industry.
>>154219128Stan Lee put him in a bind. The old nigga knows how to maneuver public opinion and he knows how to Twitter at that point. Remember how he didn't want Gwen's death on his hands? He wanted to get the fans to know that this wasn't him while looking professional and also getting the satisfaction of clowning on Slott. There's a reason why he has this reputation. And his kryptonite is guys like Ditko.
>>154219107The name is Tom Brevoort. Bill. and it's astonishinalv self-delusional that vou'd write a whole column about bullvina in the comic book industry in which vaIl'd take a hunch of chean shots hut didn't have the harkhone to actually attach my name to thomHe literally says earlier in the post he doesn't remember the editor's name. Is Brevoort delusional enough to think a guy who hasn't worked for Marvel in decades know who he is?
>>154218652I think this is a retarded take. I'll use Blue Beetle as an example. Fans are fine with change. Just dont make it retarded change for the sake of change.
>>154219180Sure, but that's Blue Beetle. DC isn't the house that Blue Beetle built, if that change didn't work out it wouldn't have impacted their sales as bad as a fuck up on something like Spider-Man would
>>154218999
>>154216106It proved that Ock is a retard, because he could have always be a millionair legitimately if he just fuckin tried.
>>154219227
>>154219519>Somebody saved the meme I made.I made it!
>>154219579Have they done an Amazing Spider-Man panel since this one?
>Zeb....don't look!Shameik got cucked by a Buffalo BVLL and Zeb got cucked by a winged buffalo.If I were Lowe, I'd stay out of the western U.S.
>>154219598I love hostage video vibes from this one.
>>154219615Not sure. I haven't kept track. That's partly why I post here because some anons are good about those things.>>154219598Cool.
Pic rel needs a Shigeru Miyamoto "just fuck my shit up"-type edit.
>>154219579What're they gonna do when Amazing 1000 comes out to an ear-splitting thud? There's 0 hype around it, like even on normie-tier social media that usually eat this shit up they're clowning on it
I forget was this fake?
>>154218269You joke but Quesada, for all of his many faults and legitimately terrible decisions, did help turn Marvel's fortunes around at the beginning of the 2000s. You don't have to praise or agree with everything he did to acknowledge basic facts.
>>154219713The fact that he's a quintessential example of a stereotypical meathead older brother?
>>154219713What is actually the brunt of what helped them? Was it the sales of books or was it actually selling away the movie rights and restructuring their company and debts? I don't know if the debt part happened but that is typically what happens after bankruptcy.
>>154218355The Clone Saga in particular was just what happens when marketing is in charge. It was initially supposed to be a short arc, but it sold so well initially, and Marvel had been looking for a Big Event for Spidey like the recent Knightfall/Death of Superman for DC, so they were pushed to keep padding it out and it became a complete disaster running for years. By the time the sales collapsed they were too deep in the muck to get out.
>>154219697I remember Mel Gibson.
>>154216106Hi Dan!
>>154219713Yeah, anons here will swear up and down One More Day only happened because Quesada got divorced or something but it's something Marvel tried to do all the way back to the Clone Saga. Like another anon in the thread said if Quesada hadn't come along and Harras stayed EiC Mary Jane would've died in that plane crash and never come back
>>154219739Yeah but they are typically still your older brother and actually still cool or like non-gay shit even if they are an asshole to you. Quesadilla dick cheese did shit that was neither cool nor sexy for the characters.
>>154219697It's real. The symbol only used to appear on a person's own tweet prior to Elon buying the company.
>>154219741>What is actually the brunt of what helped them?Turning around the sales on the comic books that made them valuable enough to banks to finance the first round of the MCU movies
>>154219756Yeah doesn't mean he's still wrong or boneheaded. I don't think anons care that it was in the works or that other people hated it. Over time, people also forget people like DeFalco and other creators warmed up to it. That's typically what happens with kino. It seems wrong and shit at first sometimes. That was the cope OMD heads wanted to pull the wool over people with. Except sales numbers and opinio/perception tell a different story now.
>>154219759>Quesadilla dick cheese did shit that was neither cool nor sexy for the characters.Yeah, this flat out isn't true, sorry anon. Prior to Quesada the Marvel stuff outside Marvel Knights was seen as lame, uncool, and decidedly unsexy.
>>154219773Ok you have cash flow ratios and other data to support that? Articles that are liable for legal action if financial misinformation was given? Some actual substance to that claim?
>>154219784Sure, but my point was more that this was something Marvel wanted prior to Quesada, it wasn't something he thought up on his own
>>154219795Ok. Avengers Vol 3 and Thunderbolts beg to differ faggot.
>>154219756>It doesn't matter, Fuck you for even caring!Easy on the demoralizing & immiseration.
>>154219811Doesn't matter if it was his original thought or not, He pulled the trigger.
>>154219803Yeah dude I have a whole file on Marvel financials in my filing cabinet from 2000-2007
>>154219756>Like another anon in the thread said if Quesada hadn't come along and Harras stayed EiC Mary Jane would've died in that plane crash and never come backDoubtful. Back then not only were the fans pissed, the orders on ASM went down. (they were hovering around 60,000 in 1999 and were starting to go below 50,000 in 2000). Understand, Chapter One and the relaunch was their chance to boost sales and the "dead MJ" era was getting lower orders than the months leading up to Chapter One. They were now lower than the sales levels they were at that prompted Chapter One in the first place.
>>154219815>thinks Busiek's unc comics Avengers was cool or sexyYeah...
>>154219795Does Marvel really send there PR staff down here to argue with chuds?
>>154219832Okay but so did DeFalco and Harras. The Quesada shot was just the one that stuck thanks to Disney money backing them up
>>154219843>washed unc still trying to convince people that Quesada Marvel was cool or sexylol
>>154219846Sure looks like itThese shills look like a joke now
>>154219846>there PR staff down here to argue with chudsNigger the Quesada era started almost 30 years ago, if I was Marvel PR I'd be defending current year Marvel not something from thirty years ago. Current year Marvel sucks ass but the Harras era sucked just as much ass
>>154219820>immiserstionNew vocab acquired. Truly, Marvel realists are the most intellectual and dextrous commanders of the English language.
Wow this so cool and sexy brah! Totally not getting the ick from this brah!
>>154219859Every Marvel book outside Marvel Knights were seen as lame shit for old people who couldn't grow out of the Bronze/Copper Age. I'm sorry if you were one of those old people but to teens like me at the time Avengers was like trying to get excited about your dad's friar's club
>>154219888>using random ass issue of She Hulk (written by Slott)>not using JMS Spider-Man or Morrison or Whedon X-MenSucks to suck
>>154219891You're already one of those old people, unc
>>154219900It was Wizard's Book of the Month mind you~
>>154219901Yeah, people age, who would've thought
>>154219888Looking at this "art" always messes with my brain.Like how the fuck did this get printed!?
>>154216106Azbat but worse btw, go to bed slott
>>154219908So was Busiek and Perez's Avengers
>>154219871Quality doesn't matter as long as it owns the chuds.>>154219872You are no different just a Hylic that can't see the bigger picture.>>154219884Why thank you good sir.
>>154218652The writers and editors clearly want Spider-Man to be this way and they have enough people buying the book to continue on as they have.
>>154219964Slott won an Eisner, It's just a glorified door stop/paper weight now.
>>154219925I accept your concession.
>>154219835Ok your sarcasm is quite lame considering that you are still left with an unfounded claim and Quesada's dick placed squarely in your mouth.
>>154219993That faggot really saw Scarlet Witch and Firestar drawn by Perez and said they aren't sexy nor is Moonstone or Songbird drawn by Bagley. What a faggot.
>>154216106superior spiderman and the superior foes were fucking great comics. wish we also had a movie or game adaptation
>>154220041Foes yes, the rest, incorrect.See above thread.
>>154216106Superior Spider-Man required everyone who interacted with him to be a complete idiot
>>154220110Every character Slott writes they take an automatic debuff of 60 IQ points, Aura & Agency.
>>154220031"That's right guys, Wanda goes commando" was cringe.
>>154219993>I accept your concessionThis is the single most faggy thing I keep seeing parroted on 4chan. Take your gay ass back to debate club
>>154220177I accept your concession again.
>>154220163Says the unc defending the Quesada era
>This isn't your Daddy's comics!Without a hint of irony, They really thought they where the new renaissance.This sleazy, skeevy Jerry Springer shit.
>>154220031A woman existing=/=sexy. Morrison’s Emma Frost had BDE that made her sexy. Busiek’s Scarlet Witch was just sort of…there and crying about Simon. And don’t get me started on the hamfisted “Carol has a drinking problem” story that would’ve made Stan Lee blush
>>154220013Oh, I forgot Comichron is only trusted if it fits want you want to hear>Comichron says DC is kicking Marvel’s ass! Yeah!>Comichron says Marvel sales had a huge spike during the Quesada era? Pfff everyone knows Comichron is bullshit!
>>154220200That’s not me but he’s right, you shit on this >>154220206 but think Scarlet Witch going commando is peak comics
>>154220250>something said in an interview>vs something shown in a comicThere's a reason why people give Millar a pass over Loeb about the Scarlet Witch/Quicksilver incest even though Millar was the one who confirmed it in an interview during Ultimates 1
>>154217358100% ive noticed this even if theyre just casually interested and ask about one specific thing then theyre curious how it fits into the larger canon of events andd you give a rational concise recap of it... you can watch their face melt into disgust.
Remember, all stories prior to 2001 are quaint hokey yarns. This IS the real shit right here!
>>154220234That's not the question faggot. Marvel could have a lot of sales but you cannot provide data as to how that stacks up with how much debt they had and other figures. You could be selling loads of tapes like ECW in the 90's but then have so much debt that you still end up going under, dumbass faggot.
>>154219579
>>154220568I don't even give a fuck as to how deep this convo with this anon >>154220234goes with proving Quesada is an EIC who helped the company when the fact of the matter is, this writing >>154220206 under his watch is what everybody hates about modern Marvel and is the root cause of the creatives not giving a shit and was the canary in the coal mine of all their other shit decisions.Quesada's bullshit might have gotten the sales they needed. But it is now strangling them to death.
>>154220544>unc stuck in the Bronze Age still seething thirty years later Psylocke no longer says "THE FOCUSED TOTALITY OF MY PSYCHIC GIFTS"
>>154220626There's nothing particular egregious about that panel unless you're a pearl clutching puritan who gets the vapors at hearing the word 'sex'. There was plenty of other tactless things in that era like Iron Man almost saying the N word before being stopped by Black Panther.
>>154220642>unc still stuck in the 00s still seething that even Gen Z is starting to prefer Bronze Age over Quesada era
This shit aged worse than Barbwire tattoos & the Microsoft Zune, But hey it's hip right?Right? Fellow kids?
>>154220679Oh yeah man, just paint one of the few black characters as entirely focused on sex at all times and have him shout that he got pussy on that couch and that it was his favorite couch like some quirky tumblr faggot who is stuck in the 00's and thinks black people say that shit in such a gay way. Simultaneously racist, liberal, tacky, and faggoty all at the same time.
>>154220695This fag likes this writing and enjoys it >>154220642 because this fag can relate to it.
>>154220683I'd love to see an example of a single zoomer preferring the Harras era to the Quesada era. Legitimately asking, that'd be insanely fascinating to me
>>154220695>woman has buttsex in a comic aimed at adultsOH MAH LAWD HOW COULD SUCH A THING BE PUBLISHED EUSTACE GET MAH FAINTING CHAIRAH!
>>154220739I may be getting rammed in my ass but it's still more sex than you'll ever have
This is making me think about how on Twitter recently a bunch of zoomers were talking about how the Silver/Bronze Age comics were sexist in the way that an old grandpa was casually sexist while 00s comics were sexist in a sleazy way
>>154220763I'd like to see an example of a single zoomer giving a shit about comics in any era
Peter SHOULD be CEO of Parker Industries. Peter SHOULD be married to M.J.Peter SHOULD have a daughter named Mayday who has taken up the mantle as Spider-Man.Peter SHOULD have become the great hero he’s always been foreshadowed to become.Peter SHOULD have grown up and graduated into the paragon of Marvel he was ALWAYS being set up to be.Why? Because it’s satisfying. Because it’s a good story. Because it would make comic readers happy.Maybe if we started writing comics based on this kind of logic the entire industry wouldn’t be eclipsed by fucking PRINT MANGA.
>>154220801My niece loves comics, I've started getting her the DC Compact stuff since there's really no Marvel stuff to get her anymore, the only stuff they put out in trades anymore are overpriced Epic Collections or omnibuses or modern stuff that sucks ass. If I want to get her the Lee/Ditko era Spider-Man stuff I either have to shell out for aftermarket trades that are selling for three figures or an omnibus that'll break her wrists
>>154220786Cool. That means no bitches yapping in my year, and my asshole doesn't leak shit periodically.
>>154220795Back in the 80's comics where far more mature and aimed at kids, 00's comics are immature but aimed at manchildren.
>>154220814I think I get what you're saying, you want for Mary Jane to be impregnated by the Rhino while Peter becomes paraplegic.
>>154220846>00's comics are immature but aimed at manchildrenThat was literally the zeitgeist of the time. American Pie, Jerry Springer, all that shit. Why do you think their children rebelled by being puritanical PC police?
iT wAs ThE cUlTuRe At ThE tImE!
JMS posted pic rel. It might not have been entirely accurate as some faggot will jump in and say it isn't representative of the sales at the time. But it does show he is like Stan Lee at the very least where he recognized that fans were very angry about OMD and was willing to turn his back on Marvel editors even if he slightly fumbled his argument. It shows that there is much doubt and credence to the way people feel and that Marvel is full of people coping and seething that they are part of the mass movement of chuddahs. Look at COD nowadays. That used to be the ultimate game that every drone would forever buy over and over. Now that and Spider-Man are getting BTFO.>>154220897>>154220922It was the culture at some points. I'm a zoomer and yeah I rebelled a bit by being a rule stickler in school and I also hated this tacky shit. But the distinction is that some of it was funny/sexy and some of it was gay bullshit like Slott.
>>154220922Yes. It was. If you don't know that you were either A) not born yet or B) spent the entire time sheltered in your mom's basement. Could be either, really
>ULTIMATE>WEB-Gotcha!>THROOOOOOWWWWWLowe is then launched across a street in Queens where the webbed up sycophant lands perfectly down a manhole like a golfball that just barely sinks it, giving Spidey a hole in one.
THIS is what strikes FEAR into the hearts of Quesadilla and the faggot crew.
>>154220206Didn't Hudlin write this? I didn't like the guy or his work, but he wote the best-selling Black Panther one, the one that wasn't kept going through pity-sales. This is what comic buyers wanted.
>>154221166Yes, comic buyers wanted nothing but black guys yelling that they had sex. That's some way of distorting the point made. I don't know if that run is good, but the sleaze was seeping its way in. Perhaps it is something readers wanted as a whole, but even good runs have moments that are retarded or tacky.
>>154221193Sleaze sells. Stan Lee's Marvel was definitely sleazier than old stodgy DC, which is why everyone came running to Marvel and left DC in droves.
>>154221207That isn't sleaze you faggot.That's called realism. Way to shift the definition/overton window on sleaze. If it was sleaze, Stan and Martin Goodman would have never printed it. Read the actual books and you'll see the conservatism and political negotiations they have to have about how to depict certain things like the Vietnam war which they never touch for a while.If it were sleaze of the time, you would've seen Cap fucking Vietnam prostitutes.
>>154221154Don't you know having a loving supportive wife & kids is tantamount to being a Nazi!
>>154221233Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm would get involved in constant property-destroying knock-down brawls like overgrown children and actual children ate it up.
>>154221322>Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm destroying property is the same thing as sleaze, guys!This is what coomers really believe
Motherfuckers are denser than a dwarf star on this god forsaken board.
>>154221322>equating cartoon violence that no kid can emulate because adults can easily stop them from horsing around, as well as characters that are supposed to be written as hotheads with casually knocking up womenYep. The extremes to which you stretch to make your point end up breaking under your retardation.
>>154221359It's more this.
>>154221363No, it's just the Quesada era fanboys, they were the same way decades ago but now they look weaker and ineffectual
>>154221366The Comics Code prevented comics from getting too sexual back then, though Steranko managed to make his point with heavy innuendo.
>>154221322Yeah! I totally remember Ben & Johnny bringing up Porn Stars for no reason during their battles.
>>154221412What is your point? Or are you just supporting my point that comics had conservatism in them back then that shows that there wasn't really all that much sleaze?
>>154221431>We [Cockrum and Stan Lee] went round and round about Ms. Marvel's costume, too. Remember she started with a female version of Captain Marvel's costume only with an open belly, and we all bitched about that because none of us could figure a rationale for it. So they closed the belly opening, but we said, 'No, she needs another costume.' We hassled Stan about it for so long that he said, 'All right! If you think you're so smart, design a new one.' And I must have gone through 50 designs! Some of 'em I would xerox and try out in different colors, and Stan would go, 'No, no, no, no! Get that out of here." Finally I did the one with the lightning bolt and sash, and I took it to Stan who said, 'That's what you should have done from the start! That's what I like: Shiny leather and tits & ass!"They put in as much as they were allowed.
>>154221374>>154221398>>154221431What is it about comics that have attractive this wave of conservative whiners that have shit up this board?
>>154221575Seethe lmao
>>154221614You're right, I should be much more upset at the sleaze in comics demonstrated here >>154221424. Tantamount to pornography, it is
>>154221238>thinking you'd have that even if the nazis wonYou'd be the first one in an oven you fucking loser. You don't have a wife and family and likely are still holding on to your v card because you're a bitter freak who thinks all their shortcomings in life aren't their fault but because we don't live under a dictatorship. Goddamn people like you fucking infuriate me. Get a fucking hooker or something for fuck's sake. Jesus fuck. Fucking loser faggot. "Hurr hurr I can't find a girl to touch me nazis shoulda won" Fuck off with that shit. Goddamn dipshit.
>>154221458Ok? But is that denigrating towards the woman? Is that inspiring the sleaze that I was talking about afterwards? Seems to me you are following Shameik type thinking by saying that women deserve what comes to them because they are wearing certain clothes.
>>154221637Faggot. One is a sexy costume, the other is cringe dialogue that is trying too hard to be funny and/or "dudebro" when She-Hulk was unlike that under Byrne.
>>154216106Rage Bait but really you must really be into the power fantasy garbage for everyone of the marvel characters act retarded just to make spock seem smarter.
>>154221769>She-Hulk was unlike that under Byrne.Didn't Byrne's She Hulk have her jumping rope naked? And a few nip slips? Seems pretty sleazy to me
>>154221687You're missing the point.
>>154221889It's Byrne's Flirt & Slott's Slut.Nuance, tankie, Nuance!
>>154216619>>154219888>>154220922>>154221363>>154221424Man! She looks like her pussy stinks of mildew.
>>154221889One is a visual joke that is using the trope of speed lines while the other is just saying She-Hulk has sex a lot and feeling ashamed because Slott likes She-Hulk and feels ashamed that he is writing this book in the 2000's where a bunch of movies are saying to just have sex all the time but Slott wants his pure lawyer waifu while also having to now reconcile that she was always like that in some sort of even more watered down version of Chasing Amy.
>>154221769If Quesada's main and Ultimate lines were too adult for your tastes, he also provided a bunch of kid-friendly comics with the Marvel Adventures line. Tobin's Spider-Man run is considered a classic on this board. You have Quesada to thank for that. And you can blame the market for its eventual dissolution. Tobin wrote a better Spider-Man than Bendis, but the comic buyers overwhelmingly chose Bendis.
>>154222144I know Slott's intent was trying to add "depth" to her but all he ended-up doing was slutshaming her all the time. Sure he gave her a couple hollow accomplishments like beating The Champion of the Universe. (Under bullshit circumstances mind you)
