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can't we all just get along?

Where the Aang x Toph shippers at?

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>>154263140
never left

>>154262879
Realistically they’re soft swappers if not full swingers

I see the appeal of Zutara but if it happens then Zuko and Mai doesnt happen and then Mai's betrayal of Azula at boiling rock makes less sense and then Azula's breakdown makes less sense. Zutara kinda fucks with the narrative in ways that makes the story less cohesively tight.

>>154263277
>"realistically"
just because that's what you want doesn't make it more real

>>154264470
The Sozin’s Comet fight with Azula leading to a Zutara moment with maybe a couple changes earlier would sidestep that issue by keeping those developments. I feel like the appeal of Zutara is best suited to fanfic though. I really like the show the way it is.

>>154265442
>Sozin’s Comet fight with Azula leading to a Zutara moment with maybe a couple changes earlier would sidestep that issue by keeping those developments
I dont see how this could happen without heavy revisions to the show or making Zuko a bit of an asshole for getting with Katara after Mai gave up her life for him. The second half of book 3 is already incredibly full narrative wise and there is almost no space for anything else. It would be really hard to make substantial changes without fucking up the pacing. Maybe the play episode could be cut for something more interesting that pushes Zutara while resolving the Mai issue. But honestly, I would just cut that episode to give Toph more relevance in the last half of book 3, maybe have her have her lifechanging field trip with Zuko, Toph feels a bit forgotten as a character in the last episodes.

>>154264470
If season 3 didn't spend its runtime dicking around on episodic stories, they could've written a proper arc for Azula's breakdown, and Mai / Ty Lee turning against her. Maiko being the instigation was a crutch, and the boiling rock episodes shouldn't exist.

>>154265531
I would also pick adding a Toph storyline over jerry-rigging a Zutara storyline 100% of the time. But I think it could be done without cheapening Mai’s sacrifice any more than Jet’s or Yue’s, that aspect could be handled in an emotionally realistic and mature manner. After all, canonically, Zuko is not with Mai out of obligation, or even because she proved her devotion. They liked each other for personal chemistry reasons to begin with.
Zutara is already set up as a gag in Ember Island Players, and The Southern Raiders is the most easily reworked episode at the right place in the sequence to develop a change in perspective between those two characters with just a scene or two differently. It would not require tearing up much of the story to change it, it’s just writing. But like I said, I personally would prefer the actual ending to trying to canonize Zutara fic.

>>154265803
You say this but the quintessential Zutara episode "The Soutern Raiders" is even more episodic and arguably inconsequential to the wider plot than the boiling rock.

>>154267100
Southern Raiders is important for Katara. Boiling Rock accomplishes fuck-all for the wider plot.

>>154267643
Boiling Rock is when they rescue Sokka's dad and Suki who is an important part of the finale. Its also pretty important for Sokka's development as a leader, Suko's redemption, his relationship to Mai and most importantly, Mai and Ty Lee's turning on Azula which is what sends her over the edge and allows Zuko to best her in the end. I get that you like Katara but boiling rock is undeniably much more important for the wider plot.

>>154267643
Boiling Rock is Sokka’s TSR, Toph got shafted

>>154267804
>Boiling Rock is when they rescue Sokka's dad and Suki who is an important part of the finale
Neither of those things are important. Suki didn't have to be there at all. Sokka already had plenty of development focusing on his leadership. If you wanted more, it could've been focused on the final battle. It wasn't needed there. Mai and Zuko's relationship added nothing to the show or Zuko's character arc. Mai and Ty Lee's turning on Azula should've been independent of Zuko.

>>154267824
The structure of Zuko's field trips in the second half of season 3 was retarded.

>>154267903
>Suki didn't have to be there at all
Suki already has pretty low screentime and is an interesting character who both deserves screentime of her own and is also a pair with Sokka.
>Sokka already had plenty of development focusing on his leadership
Its always nice to have more, and the key point here is that he coleads with his dad.
>Mai and Zuko's relationship added nothing to the show or Zuko's character arc
This is like saying "Sokka and Suki's relationship added nothing to the show" and you only say it because you like Zutara more which, fair, but this does not mean that the other ship "adds nothing". Its there because its cute and it leads to great character moments. Similarly, Zuko and Mai's relationship adds great character moments.
>Mai and Ty Lee's turning on Azula should've been independent of Zuko
All 4 characters are integrally interconnected. I agree that the show doesnt focus on their interactions as much as it should have but Zuko should absolutely have been a part of it. Otherwise Mai doesnt really have a reason to oppose Azula, and thus her country. There simply wasnt enough time to develop her character to the point where she sees that the fire nation is in the wrong and what we got was a happy compromise.

>>154268003
Continued: All that being said. I agree that the boiling rock is not a perfect pair of episodes. Much time is wasted on the prison stuff and the first escape attempt should have been entirely cut along with that one prisoner guy character who is just a waste of time. The boiling rock arc could have been much more efficient than it is, but I think the core of what it is is pretty pivotal to central characters and the show is better for it.

>>154268003
Suki is not interesting.
My criticisms have nothing to do with zutara. Zuko and Mai's relationship wasn't developed enough to be impactful, and Azula deserved a better downfall arc.
The reason the characters weren't developed enough was a misuse of time.

>>154268047
>Suki is not interesting.
Well, here is where we disagree I suppose. I guess Sokka could have gone through the same 'overcoming biases arc' with Ty Lee rather than Suki, and then we would have a more overall efficient show but this would have required radical changes to the structure of the show which makes it pretty hard to judge if it would have been better or worse for it.

>>154262081
>>154262103
I'm a huge fan of enemies to lovers but don't get Zutara. They have a couple of cute moments but they're few and far in between.

I want to kiss a woman so badly

>>154268003
> Zuko and Mai's relationship adds great character moments.
Not really. There’s no meaningful start of their relationship, they just happen after zuko comes back to the fire nation. After that it’s just a back and forth of “we’re done” “we’re back together” and “we’re done” “we’re back together”. So her betraying azula for him just doesn’t feel that impactful. Agree with you on sokka and suki, they’re relationship actually has development.

>>154267903
Even Sokka coming to trust Zuko wasn’t necessary for development because they don’t have any fights or adventures together after that episode

>>154268104
>I'm a huge fan of enemies to lovers but don't get Zutara
I think its mostly borne from how much Kataang rubs some people the wrong way with Aang seemingly pushing his puppy crush and Katara being generally disinterested for like 90% of the series and them just getting together in the end. Katara and Aang dont have that much romantic chemistry together and seem to end up together mostly because he is the hero and she is the main girl and he likes her so they have to end up together. In comparison Katara and Zuko seem like a much more involved couple that springs up sort of organically.

>>154268104
This aired on a traditional schedule, so those few cute moments basically amplified into the whole ship, weekly releases and TV hiatuses used to make make shipping into juggernaut audience material moreso than the actual content in the shows because by the time they get another cute moment, the art and fic is way ahead of it and borgs it into the shipping fandom

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Interesting discussion. But time for a curveball.

>>154262081
It just werks. No woman in the entire history of the world ever fell for a guy she treated like an annoying little brother

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Boiling Rock is deceptively a dumb episode like the rest of Book 3.

>Non-bender and the fire nation prince decide to infilrate a dangerous prison without telling the Avatar, the Water Bending master and the Earth Bending Master and this is somehow a good idea.

>If Sokka and Zuko told them about the plan, they could have had backup when they were escaping prison and they were lucky Mai risked her life helping Zuko.
>The rest of the Gaang weren't angry that they risked their lives without telling them.

Not to mention a serious relationship writing fumble for Maiko.

>Zuko sees Mai helping him and likely knows she will be punished to hell by his sister.
>Nonchalantly notices her and says her name to Sokka. Didn't even scream her name, say she's my girlfriend and even look distressed.

Is it any wonder why Zutara is so popular when Zuko's canon love relationship is so badly neglected?

>>154268317
It would have been pretty funny to see episode 1 Sokka meet Azula. Would he reconsider his worldview or just conclude that Azula is some sort of inhuman creature and not really a girl?

>>154268189
Kataang was very much friends to lovers. It's not like Katara was uninterested she was just ignorant of his feelings. She flirted with him since season one but they did have stale development in season 3.
>>154268248
I watched it when it aired and I didn't see it. The first time I was aware about how big it was was when the School time shipping short aired and I realized it was more than just a few people online.

>>154268341
>dumb episode like the rest of Book 3.
Book 3 is pretty disjointed but it has some of the best individual episodes of the whole series. The Puppet master and the southern raiders are some of the best children's media out there imo. The main issue is that there were too many characters and too many moving parts and they couldnt fit everything neatly, so the obvious thing that was neglected was romance stuff.

>>154268412
> Katara was uninterested she was just ignorant of his feelings
Sure, but she never really does show active interest of her own like he does. The most we get is when she ponders whether Aang is 'the powerful bender she is destined to be with'.
>She flirted with him
90% of their 'romantic' interactions are indistinguishable from her just being the mom in the group and caring about him the way a big sister would.

>>154268412
>I watched it when it aired and I didn't see it. The first time I was aware about how big it was was when the School time shipping short aired and I realized it was more than just a few people online.
That’s what I mean, it was a feature of the fandom not the show

>>154268457
>Sure, but she never really does show active interest of her own like he does
She wants to kiss him in the cave. The whole thing is her idea.
>90% of their 'romantic' interactions are indistinguishable from her just being the mom in the group and caring about him the way a big sister would.
That's the main reason she's ignorant to his feelings because she had to grow up too early. Aang doesn't see her as a mom or caregiver and allows her to act her age for once.
>>154268459
Fair enough

>>154268459
>it was a feature of the fandom not the show
Wasn’t katara originally supposed to be with zuko? I swear I remember that from those little trivia pop ups on those special episodes.

>>154268520
From what the writers said themselves it seemed like a bunch of writers were staunchly Zutara but the two head writers were completely Kataang and essentially vetoed Zutara.

>>154268545
And it feels like that seeped into the show and that it wasn’t just a fandom thing.

>>154268520
I don’t remember that one, but I remember Bryke made a lot of jokes about the shipping and weren’t into it. I remember someone made a joke on The Western Air Temple commentary track about Zutara losing to John McCain in the polls (the election Obama won). I’d be curious to see a transcript of the nick trivia bits because I barely remember them tho. It’s possible the scenes were written/drawn by people who were into it.

>>154268579
I would have to find the article but Im pretty sure one of the head writers said that he based kataang on a crush he had on one of his babysitters and that, of course, set up a storm of speculation about self insertion and whether Kataang was forced by the guy and this whole thing has been giving ammo for Zutara shippers to argue that the series organically supports Zutara and Kataang is just this one guy trying to relive his childhood crush.

>>154267903
>Neither of those things are important.
>they rescue Sokka's dad and Suki

Zutara shipper trying to convince you that the safety of the father of BOTH SOKKA AND KATARA and their couple/friend are not important to the plot

If Katara didn't give a damn about her father, the only thing that would symbolize is how hypocritical she is, wanting revenge for a dead mother but not caring about a living father locked up like a prisoner of war.

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>>154263140
>>154263207
Glad to see some of us are still here after all these years.

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>>154268590
Found it.

>>154268652
We need to go back and correct the timeline.

>>154268630
>not important to the plot
NTA but their father leaves in literally the next episode and is not seen again until the finale so you can’t blame people for thinking that when it feels like the writers thought the same as well.

>>154268652
Wild, guess it was mostly their audience’s reaction they took issue with. That tracks with S1.

>>154268630
They’re right about the story, feels are not structure

>>154268640
This would make a really cute couple. Its just sad that Toph sort of disappears from the story in late book 3. I wonder if aging Aang and Toph to 14 or 15 and have Sokka, Katara and Zuko be 16 or 17, would have improved the romantic side of the story. 12 just feels a bit too young to actually care about romance. And I guess Toph and Aang didnt really need a romance but just shown to be really close friends. Its a giant shame they didnt get a an episode together.

Toph should have ended up with Sokka. Suki is irrelevant.

>>154268341
>Is it any wonder why Zutara is so popular when Zuko's canon love relationship is so badly neglected?
This is why Maikofags are the forgotten middle child of avatar ships. you know its bad when people would rather ship literal incest via azula over Maiko

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>>154267903
>and Suki who is an important part of the finale

>>154268520
The pitch bible had male Toph seducing Katara as an extended plot of Book 2, but early on there were also wacky ideas like Iroh being evil and training Zuko wrong.

>>154262081
Zutara fans are like the western equivalent to eva fags. They've been at this for almost 20 years

>>154270144
so no different from the rest of /co/ talking about cartoons from 20 years ago then?

I just want to see hot characters making out

>>154270205
Time is a flat circle

>>154262081
I only like this ship because of the porn. getting. A native exotic brownie getting piped by a Asian prince checks my kink.

NTR witch Katara cheating on Aang with Zuko!

>>154271345
>>154271360
kill urself my man

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>When some East vs West schizo tries to shitpost on /a/ about Avatar.

>No one on /a/ cares except the schizo.
https://desuarchive.org/a/thread/288792874/#288794842

>>154271387
You are the schizo, aren't you?

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>>154271392
I'm not the OP, I just like posting Toph when the opportunity arises and calling Avatar a mid-tier anime because that's exactly what it is.

>>154271427
>and calling Avatar a mid-tier anime because that's exactly what it is.

High range mid tier and we can be friends

>>154268520
>>154268545
What's interesting is that a few of the writers have come out and said zutara was seriously discussed and advocated for in the writers' room (a couple of them going so far to say zutara was the original idea), but then Mike and Bryan act like it was always Kataang. I suspect Bryke want to revise history since they didn't have as much control over ATLA's writing as they wanted, which tracks with how they shat all over the spirit world stuff ATLA established.

>>154268319
Maybe if the guy never truly grew up, but Aang does mature as the narrative progresses, enough for Katara to see a spark.

>>154272198
Katara and Aang's dynamic doesn't change. She still treats him like a little brother outside of [insert obligatory kataang scene here]. It is fundamentally dishonest. I don't believe you can like kataang and truly respect katara as a character.

>>154272254
With that kind of logic, Zuko is not really a great choice for her either. I mean they barely even know each other outside of shared trauma, and his appeal among this fandom is mostly draped in all sorts of shallow appeal for his looks and bad boy aesthetics (much of which is self insert behavior). That's cute enough for a passionate fling, but not guaranteed to work in the long term, because outside of the heat of trauma, Katara is a relatively gentle girl who doesn't need all the political intensity and insecurities surrounding Zuko.

>>154272506
Eh, that’s a poor line of reasoning given Zuko is a sensitive boy and Katara also has a temper. There must be a better supporting argument available.

>>154272254
It's funny how whenever Katara does something for Aang, it's because "she's the mother of the group" or "she sees him as a brother," but literally the rest of the series and with the rest of the cast, she bothers them, she's bossy, or she has moments that are like a sister and friend, setting boundaries. Only Aang's moments don't count; those always have to be "mother and son" or "siblings," according to you.

>>154272563
Except that "sensitive boy" is ignored by the fandom.

Zuko suffers from the same thing as Iroh: extreme whitewashing where everything prior to joining Team Avatar is forgiven. For many, the emboldened firelord Zuko from his confrontation with Azula is what Zuko is 24/7. Similarly, Iroh is the cool, spiritually good old man; there was never a murderous warlord who laughed at the idea of burning villagers.

>>154272569
Exactly. Katara treats Aang like she treats Toph, or Sokka. Like a sibling. You just owned yourself.

>>154262081
I just like their porn. The tribal exotic girl next door and the edgy Asian prince is a turn on for me.

>>154272506
>Katara is a relatively gentle girl
This is such a shallow, reductive view of Katara. Exactly what I expect from a kataang shipper

>>154268189
>dont have that much romantic chemistry together and seem to end up together mostly because he is the hero and she is the main girl and he likes her so they have to end up together
*cough*NaruSaku*cough*
*cough*NaLu*cough*

>>154272597

Oh, right, right.
Like that time Katara wanted to kiss Toph so they could both escape a cave whose legend said that love literally guided them.

Damn, typical sibling behavior in Alabama. Ironic, considering the show has all those Eastern concepts.

>>154272728
I recognize that Katara can be a strong young women when she needs to be, but she's not always out here looking to beat up knuckleheads like Toph. And while she has a drive to prove herself much like Zuko, it comes from a more leveled headed place and a need to protect rather than for a sense of honor that was initially fueled by hate, rage and anguish. And she's usually seen looking out for and cares for her friends, ready to protect, guide and heal, hence why she's also relatively gentle and seen as motherly. Katara is the mother bear while Zuko is the ever charging bull

>>154262879
Can we get much higher?

>>154273040
>Katara is the mother bear while Zuko is the ever charging bull
Hot, I'm pro-Zutara now.

>>154272926
Those ship-tease moments were isolated from what their dynamic was the other 99% of the time, which was an older sister-younger brother type relationship. They were imposed upon Katara, rather than something that organically developed as their relationship shifted. Nothing actually changed. A couple of blushes isn't a substitute for a proper romance that stems from genuine relational change. Mike and Bryan did not give a FUCK what made emotional sense for Katara, based on the story told. Don't fall for this kind of lazy, dishonest, wish-fulfilment storytelling.

>>154273040
>but she's not always out here looking to beat up knuckleheads like Toph
you later admitted as much but surely there is room in the middle here between that and "relatively gentle girl"? Katara can be sweet and consoling, but she quite often varies from 'smart alec' to 'fully prepared to fight at a moments notice'.
>And while she has a drive to prove herself much like Zuko, it comes from a more leveled headed place
she stole a waterbending scroll just to catch up with aang who was picking up waterbending quicker, which led to them getting caught by pirates. Being level headed has never been Katara's strong suit. idealistic, sure. the plot just ends up validating her recklessness while also dunking on sokka for rightly pointing it out. everyone remembers iroh saying zuko doesn't think things through but no one points out Sokka basically saying the same to katara in the painted spirit.
But i have to agree with that other anon, your original point is shallow. it's especially so when you say katara doesn't need political intensity when it was quite literally katara's thing to be politically intense throughout the show. the same katara who challenged the northern tribes entire society and way of life. but i get why people would think like this when bryke have gone out of their way to sanitize katara of the more active traits she had in ATLA (because it came from others like Elizabeth welch). her completely letting the north colonize the south after sitting out of the civil war in korra reeks of this.

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>my bro stole my gf
>so I nailed his sister

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I know it may sound like a novel concept, but you guys can actually post some art too along with the rants.

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>>154262081
Honestly, I prefer suki.

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time to bust out the vintage stuff

any good ATLA fic recs?

>>154275432
There's one on AO3 where Azula is kept in prison after the events of the show and her only option to live is voted by console (of which her brother is a member) and is to help Aang repopulate the air benders, or be executed. It's short and to the point, but had the tag "court mandated impregnation" which was pretty cool. Azula also chides Aang about how to save her life he's going to have to rape her. She loses to the cock in the end. No one can beat the cock.

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>>154272926
since someone already brought up the cave of two lovers
>first episode of s2 presents a legend of two lovers - one red, the other blue - meeting in a cave of glowing green crystals
>s2 finale: Zuko and Katara - characters associated with red and blue - meet in a cave of glowing green crystals
what did they mean by this?

>>154262081
I kinda wish Zuko was one of Toph’s baby daddies

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>>154268189
>>154268457
>and Katara being generally disinterested for like 90% of the series
She got jealous of him, she is clearly interested in kissing him and worries about him not want to kiss her, the school dance episode has them dancing with a pretty big romantic undertone. These are all moments where its obvious that she is very much into him "that way".

Meanehile she has no moment where she really "is" into Zuko.

I bet if the genders were reversed we wouldn't be having this discussion.

>>154268545
>>154271776
Do we have ACTUAL proof of that, or its just tumblr schizo episode?

Because you know how psycho tumblr people are with their ships right?

>>154272597
>>154272254
It's the opposite - zuko is the brother:

>How Katara clearly treats Zuko like a brother

>So my brain randomly started working(ish) today, and for some reason, it wanted to think about Zutara, and it just found it hilariously ridiculous (even more than normally, that is), that the Zutarians view the Kataang relationship as more of a brother/sister one than Zutara. Brain came to an astonishing conclusion: Katara treats Zuko completely like a brother, (except being declared enemies, that is).

>So while brain was having fun, I tried to keep track. We know how Katara’s relationship is with her actual brother, Sokka - meaning we know how she’d treat another brother-figure in her life. Brain started to compare this with Zuko, and it went like thus:

>Sokka and Katara are not overly affectionate with the other, although they are not afraid of having physically affectionate moments: We see them hugging several times. As brain likes to think, there’s nothing romantic or weird in that, and neither Katara or Sokka seems to think so. Then brain thinks, it’s sort of the same with Zuko – they are by no means, physically over-affectionate, but there are a few instances of them touching. Like, their hug, or Katara touching his back after healing him in SC. Not romantic either, says brain.

>How about Aang on this? Oh yeah, touching all the time.

>Katara is motherly, that is a fact, and she is motherly also to Sokka. We know how much she cares for him, but she doesn’t flat out say thinks like, “The world can’t afford to loose you to the Fire Nation – and neither can I” to him very often. The same with Zuko – she cares about him, (or she does, in the ending, anyway), but brain couldn’t come up with a single instance where she fired a cheesy “Zuko, you mean the world to me”ish line at him. Brain conclude, that while Katara cares about her “brothers” she doesn’t need to tell them all the time.

>>154277059
>Aang on the other hand… She’s always talking about how special, and precious he is, and how much she cares about him.

>Then brain when on, and thought about how Katara acts when Sokka is down. She is her natural motherly self, and comforts him. An example is Sokka’s Master. For some reason, brain found this oddly alike with Katara comforting Zuko outside Iroh’s tent. Brain reminds me that she is never over-affectionate in her comforting, only “maternally”. Not in a “come here, you need a hug” and let me just invade every bit of personal space of your body-way, every time they are looking slightly sad. But in a “what’s wrong? Look, it’s not as bad as you think” way whenever they look like they could use some help, which brain considers perfectly normal between family and friends.

>Aang? She is all over him, at every given opportunity.

>Then brain moves on to ponder on a side of Katara that it really likes: Her feisty, cheeky and sarcastic side. It’s a side we almost only see in her relation to Sokka, (and sometimes, Toph) – he is the only member of the Gaang she constantly pokes fun of, fights with (without any real reason) and is the victim of a seldom seen (but much appreciated (by brain)) side of her, that is her Sokka-like sarcasm. Then brain makes a connection – after Katara and Zuko finally becomes friends, pretty much every interaction that is not about Aang, being disgusted with the idea of them romancing or related to the war, is her making fun of him. (“Look at baby Zuko! Isn’t he cuuuuute” or “Actually, I think that actor’s pretty spot on”).

>And we all know that Aang and Katara rarely fights, and never (or, anyway, brain couldn’t think of any instance where they) make fun of each other. They laugh with the other, never of the other. Unlike Katara with Zuko and Sokka, is brain’s conclusion.

>So, brain tried, and failed at sorting this mess out.

>>154262081
I don't! My boy Zuko can do TEN times better.

>>154273296
>Those ship-tease moments were isolated from what their dynamic was the other 99% of the time, which was an older sister-younger brother type relationship. T
Niggas say this, while Zutara doesn't have actual moments of romantic interest and live off imagined scenarios.

Somehow Aang and Katara's shipping moments don't count, but the zutara episode on your head is valid.

>They were imposed upon Katara, rather than something that organically developed as their relationship shifted
Yeah, because Katara's endgame being a guy that she barely knew for most of the show and that tried to kill her friends plenty of times is organic. The most organic and realistic thing about Zuko and Katara's relationship was she saying that if he touched Aang she would straight up kill him on the spot.

>Don't fall for this kind of lazy, dishonest, wish-fulfilment storytelling.

The entire ATLA fanbase is made up of one of three types of people:
Those who self-insert as Aang and ship him with Katara.
Those who self-insert as Zuko and ship him with Azula.
Those who self-insert as Katara and ship her with Zuko.

>>154277031
it's on the youtube podcast. john o bryan and joshua hamilton said it. Why do people keep getting surprised/skeptical over decades old known information?

>>154277426
Post the video with the timestamp. I get surprised/skeptical because I never see anybody posting the receipts and tumblr loved to make stuff up.

>>154277426
>>154277449
This. Provide the actual evidence.

>>154277449
>>154277460
>https://www.iheart.com/podcast/867-avatar-braving-the-element-83488502/episode/atla-writer-john-obryan-and-the-birth-of-avatar-85919549
>"I would have gone Katara-Zuko... I know that we lost that fight, but... I'm sure there's some alternate dimension where they are a thing."
you can listen to the whole thing and find this quote

it’s anecdotal but M Night Shamalan said that it was up in the air if Katara would get with Aang or Zuko. Bryke did work pretty close with him on the movie

>>154277753
Here is the excerpt:
>https://www.instagram.com/reel/CSrarzXt_Sn/

>>154277753
>>154277831
Here are Joshua, Tim and John o Bryan confirming the talks about it in the writers room
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ye8vp4Q2BM
3 different senior staff writers btw
>34:31
>-Ah! Here we go. -...Aang and Katara were going to get together at the end of the season.
>That's where it seemed like it was going, but it wasn't, you know... a foregone conclusion. Right, we had this conversation.
34:44
34 minutes, 44 seconds
Aang could have just...
34:46
34 minutes, 46 seconds
He could have, you know, embraced his monk lifestyle and just wandered off to get into more adventures. It wasn't looking good for him, I'll tell you that.

Behead zutarans

>>154262081
Zuzu would never cheat on Azula like that

>>154277824
This would also be such an improbable thing for shamalama to lie about, especially because it coborates what actual writers said was the case.

>>154273358
>her completely letting the north colonize the south after sitting out of the civil war in korra reeks of this.
This drove me nuts, especially after it was such a big point in the first series when she was a hothead to Pakku

>>154268341
Zuko and Mai represent childish and avoidant relationships that you need to grow out of
They were only together because they happened to see each other often as kids

>>154277186
Ayrt isn’t talking about Zutara or claiming it’s “more canon”. They’re talking about appeal and Kataang being romantically underdeveloped writing wise, which is true.

>>154278195
Bro you are comparing underdeveloped with "not developed".

>>154278319
the anon wasn't comparing Kataang to Zutara, they were saying Kataang is not developed enough

>that pie was underbaked
>but the cookies aren't there at all!

>>154278561
Whataboutism the got to defense anytime you point this out. it's almost as if the show was better off not having shipping at all if underbaked slop was what they ended up with.

>>154278561
>the anon wasn't comparing Kataang to Zutara
But I am. He is a zutaran, and I'm explaining how that position makes no sense with what he defends.

>>154262081
>Reylo and Dramione fanfiction is being made into feature length movies
Come on Zutarians, you need to step up your game.

>>154278983
Only a matter of time before one of the many discount zutara novels gets a movie adaptation

>>154278983
sauce(s)?

>>154279452
The Reylo one is The Love Hypothesis, the Dramione one is Alchemised. One is a college au, so no Force or Rebels or anything, and the other is about Draco imprisoning and raping Hermione but they’re actually secret lovers.

>>154278983
I thought Hunt for Ben Solo was cancelled.

>>154279637
Reylo fanfiction has something of a reputation as breeding ground for romance authors in general. See https://archive.ph/JYM9O and

>>154280162
..and https://www.goodreads.com/group/bookshelf/1201719-reylo-fanfics-turned-into-published-books.

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>>154262081
I’m gonna be honest, Katara shouldn’t have ended up with anyone in the end but if she had to, then the show treated it as if Zuko was the one she was going to fall for at the end while her last interaction with Aang before the out of nowhere kiss was her yelling at him while he stormed off after yelling at her.
Just compare the interactions between the two ships right before the end, it’s night and day.

>>154280924
>just compare the interactions between the right before at the end - but not the one where the girl kiss the boy

This is why people call zutarafags delusional.

>>154281158
>>but not the one where the girl kiss the boy
>illiterate-kun can’t read

>>154279637
>Draco imprisoning and raping Hermione
. . . . And that's supposed to be romantic?

>>154278912
Shipping fandom is completely irrelevant to the writing though, canon shippers are equally fueled by lackluster romance writing

>>154271776
>I suspect Bryke want to revise history since they didn't have as much control over ATLA's writing as they wanted, which tracks with how they shat all over the spirit world stuff ATLA established.
This does make sense given the many ways in which LoK shat the bed. I guess the takeaway from this debacle is that ATLA was made great by a collaborative effort of many great creatives who complemented each other and when some of those creatives gained complete control they didnt incorporate the ways which other creatives used to make such a great product. Which I guess is what explains why LoK is so good in some ways but so bad in others.

>>154279722
Lol
>>154283457
Voldemort is forcing him to and he’s a double agent or something. They were also dating before she wiped her own memories.

>>154283602
I don't know why people struggle to understand this. You can't criticize the romance writing of non-canon ships, because they didn't happen. People ship them because of their potential.

>>154283457
The premise is that Voldemort wins and Hermione is given to Draco for pureblood breeding program but she’s a spy and fell in love with him in the past. The appeal is like 50 Shades.

>>154283795
>>154283602
Shippers are retards in general, but cannon shippers tend to suffer more from confirmation bias

>>154280162
Why? Zoomer girl's first badboy romance?

>>154283992
Star Wars fandom = money

>>154283992
A lot of Reylo fanfiction are AUs, making it easy to file serial numbers off them and sell as original fiction. This is something Dramione fic writers going pro seem to struggle with - a lot of their works take place in the HP universe, meaning it takes more efffort to rework them into autonomous novels than just going Find+Replace on names. I suspect at this point, some of the Reylo authors who went pro are people who wanted to go into romance writing from the get-go, but decided to start in fanfic and build an audience before they start knocking on doors.
Why are there so many AUs, well my guess is many of those authors aren't interested in trying to salvage the plot of the sequels or in the finer working of the SW universe, plus the characters are so bland you can do pretty much whatever with them without it seeming horrible out of place, plus what someone on Tumblr pointed out - Adam Driver is a popular actor and many AUs are pretty much people fantasizing about roles they'd like to see him in.
As to why the fandom is so huge and popular, yeah, badboy romance. Reylo is kinda synonymous with generic bad boy stuff in some circles, and since so much of it is AUs, even people who don't know the movies can read them.

>>154268429
>Book 3 is pretty disjointed but it has some of the best individual episodes of the whole series
True. Judged on an episode by episode basis, book 3 is pretty good. I disagree there were too many moving parts to make it a great season overall. We really didn't need some of the episodic fluff we got. Even Puppetmaster, as much as I love that episode, didn't need to exist.

>>154268362
>Gets his ass whupped
>They learn to respect each other over time
>Gets the 'I'm not just a warrior, I'm also a woman' speech but in a whole other context

>>154280360
Kind of amazed that women fetishize dog dicks and mpreg.

>>154285170
Seeing what men fetishize on this website, I think the takeaway is that human beings are fucked up.

>>154285242
Yeah big tits and fat asses are fucked up, take the L on this one.

>>154285007
>Even Puppetmaster, as much as I love that episode, didn't need to exist
I mean yeah, but if the story is just the bare minimum 'all that strictly needs to happen to get to the end' it would be bare bones and boring. Episodes like Puppetmaster dont just give great character moments but also worldbuild. These are two really important elements for the story to be good. Self contained episodes that finish neatly are just an excuse to actually build the characters rather than the plot and go a long way in making the show feel more alive and not just be a planned story.

>>154285262
Holy newfag

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>>154276400
I'm fully convinced that Zuko and Katara were supposed to parallel Oma and Shu. I can't prove it, but it's too perfect. I cringe at the re-use of the cave of two lovers theme when Katara and Aang kiss, because that story didn't represent them. Maybe one day Aaron will give us the lowdown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL5HbW8lH_o

>>154285262
NTA but your too young to post here if that was your response

>>154285306
>>154285476
Nice try.

>>154285294
Book 2 managed to balance its character and world-building with its story progression perfectly. Book 3 was only so episodic because Nickelodeon mandated it - there was a real risk of non-renewal. I might keep puppetmaster, but the entire season should've been reworked to build momentum toward Black Sun and Sozin's Comet instead of so much dicking around. I like Sokka's Master and The Runaway too, but you can still incorporate great character moments while building the story.

>>154285294
I think Puppetmaster and Painted Lady could have been combined

>>154286356
The Headband should've been scrapped too. We didn't need 3 episodes to get across the idea that fire nation people can be victims too.

>>154286513
Yeah although I love Headband sentimentally. Setting Master/Headband in the same location might have been a good A/B story combo.

>>154286828
…Sokka’s Master I mean

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>>154286828
That's the tricky part of imagining how to rework season 3 - the attachment to episodes as they are. You gotta be willing to cut some good stuff to make it better overall. In your mind, anyway.

>>154286356
I’m curious, how would you go about combining them?

>>154286963
I can see how that would be hard, but at the end of the day it’s just a matter of choices and synthesizing function and appeal. In the case of Headband I think it could be reduced to the classroom scene and the dance.

>>154287129
Without sitting down with it, the theme would be healing and healers. I’d have Hama’s invite to the inn be their answer to needing food due to the pollution. Some of Hama’s victims are from the factory.
Three different alter egos of the villager with the hats drop hints about the disappearances, the pollution, and rumors about Hama. Maybe one being a medicine seller as they seek help for Appa.
Katara bonds with Hama during the day and learns about the painted lady. She takes on the alter ego to heal the sick. Hama catches her waterbending sneaking back to the inn and decides to show her the comb as its almost the full moon.
Katara does Painted Lady and destroys the factory the night of the full moon before meeting up with Hama. Aang chases her down and they team up to destroy it before he goes to check on Appa and she goes to meet Hama.
After taking Hama down, they confront the soldiers in town, but both the villagers and the prisoners are grateful to the Gaang. They clean up the river and the real painted lady appears to reassure Katara’s doubt after bloodbending. Maybe something like that.

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>>154285262
>being this new

>>154268317
>Now kiss!

>>154285262
This nigga

>>154262879
Mai being the hetero cushion between Zuko and Aang is the only version of Mai/Zuko that really makes sense

>>154286356
>>154288488
That's dumb, you're looking at wholly two different plots.

>>154283935
But she's a mudblood.

>>154290988
Voldemort himself is canonically a halfblood, and when given the choice between trying to off Harry, an inferior halfblood (like him), or Neville, a pureblood, someone his whole crusade claims as superior, he went after the halfblood because he figuratively saw himself in Harry in a weird twisted way until he was literally in Harry as a horcrux

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>>154278983
>story of an MC soldier associated with the people who committed genocide against one people and also killed the main girl's entire family and sees them as inferior to his nation
>they constantly fight (physical intimacy, masochism, sadism even)
>power dynamic between the two shifts constantly
>he hunts the group she's with (girl's see it as him obsessed with her (in a good way (cause that's a thing)))
>eventually he joins her group
>hint that they fucked constantly when they were enemies
>now they can more openly fuck now that he's a good guy
honestly the fact this isn't already a thing shocks me, seems like the kind of slop these people crave

>>154290988
It has something to do with Draco being the mindreader trying to access Hermione’s lost memories, which makes him the only one qualified to fuck her.
>>154291187
I applaud your effort but this is Dramione rape fanfiction. I am curious how the off-brand Voldemort works in the version of it you can buy that has all the serial numbers filed off. I think he’s a foreigner.

>>154290988
I think the idea was Voldemort not caring about that and breeding the purebloods with captive half bloods to increase the magical population, not to make more purebloods

>>154291268
But she's not a half blood. She's a mudblood.

>>154279637
>and the other is about Draco imprisoning and raping Hermione but they’re actually secret lovers.
Actually annoyed. I've been writing basically that, but about another fandom, on and off for the last year and this is the first I hear about this.
When my garbage is finished around October, everybody is just going to say "this is just alchemised" even though I haven't even read that.

>>154291429
I think you’re more invested in HP lore than me and could check out the fic yourself if you care that much

>>154291268
Back when I used to read HP fanfiction (probably over a decade ago at this point) "The Ministry/Voldemort wants to increase the magical population and forces purebloods to breed with halfbloods and muggleborns" was a decently popular trope. I think it was called Marriage Law?
>>154291455
Alchemised didn't come up with this and I'm not sure if it's popular enough in non-HP circles for people to make the connection

>>154291571
Well it's simple.
A half breed is like a nigger and a white woman having a purely white son.
A mudblood is two niggers having a purely white son.
Usually, mudbloods don't do good magic since they don't have the advantage of someone to teach them at home before they go to magic school (niggers are never told magic exists and they think the white son was sent to a normal school) and of course they can't practice magic during the summer break since they go back to the regular world.
Hermione stood out because despite being a mudblood, she was the top of her class, either because Hogwarts is that good and being academically dedicated is enough to surpass everybody else with advantages at home, orrr because girl power in a 90s story. Whichever you prefer.

>>154291226
As long as he wears a condom. Don't want to get a muddy dick.

Aang ships are creep and ugly as fuck. It's like looking at a cancer kid getting it on with super modelsm, must be part of the ugly bastard fetish jews love so much.

>>154290984
Of course it’s dumb, it’s a combination of two preexisting plots instead of a new episode. Ask for what you want next time.

>>154283795
>People ship them because of their potential.
The point is that people are calling you retarded because its all in your head. Anything can have "potential".

>>154283602
>Shipping fandom is completely irrelevant to the writing though,
Then you are on the wrong thread, the thread is about clowning on zutarans.

>>154267903
Mai and Ty Lee independently turning on Azula would have been ass, then everyone is just a good guy at heart and redeem themselves and no one is ever selfish or cowardly. It would cheapen Zukos arc as well. It makes more sense that Mai betrays Azula to save Zuko —-> Ty Lee betrays Azula to save Mai.

>>154292154
I mean he's a 12 year old bald kid. It was always somewhat mostly an appearance thing. Look how many people stfu when he ended up being built like a brickhouse. If the arcs remained the same but Aang and Zuko switched designs or if Zuko just remained bald not many people would be on board.

>>154262081
The only reason Zutara exists is because a bunch of girls watched Avatar and their little pussies got wet watching Zuko and rather than creating OCs they decided to write fics where they self-insert as the main girl.
Kataang and Maiko were both decent relationships that the writers fumbled by putting fake relationship drama into the mix, frankly Aang and Katara should've started dating mid season 3 and Mai should've followed Zuko when he joined the Gaang.

>>154293283
>Shiptard forever stuck in console wars cant even read an op

>>154294218
if you think that leaked no one even talks about moved the needle for aang, you haven’t been paying attention. people were thirsting for Toph and Zuko the most. Aang being fit is still negated by him still acting like a twink

>>154296101
>OP is zutarafaggotory

>>154296148
Nah, there were plebty of posts about people lusting after aang. some anon here had a collage.

>>154296163
was only a matter of time before chimps like you would sperg out kek

>>154264470
Let’s not forget how Katara would have to marry into the fire nation royalty despite being from the water nation and her main trauma about her mother’s death at the hands of a fire nation general. I see the appeal too but narratively it wouldn’t make sense for Katara.

>>154296184
>plenty of posts from people here
all drowned out by Zuko looking like jinshi tier wuxia mc and toph looking like a muscle mommy

>>154296288
>Let’s not forget how Katara would have to marry into the fire nation royalty despite being from the water nation and her main trauma about her mother’s death at the hands of a fire nation general
Ignoring the fact that she got over it in the episode where they addressed this, I don't see how, considering it's a monarchy, she would be against ruling them.
Like, you killed my mom, now I'm your boss. Hoho.

>>154275432
If you interested in crossovers there is a finished fic with Stargate called "The Dragon King's Temple"

>>154296288
this argument falls apart when you remember you remember oma and shu exists, nevermind how the sins of the father doesn’t prevent irl relationships between former adversaries of war.

>>154296476
You never truly forget about trauma lmfao. Being the queen of a kingdom where it’s at the back of your mind every time you wake up in the country that ravaged your home will eventually drive you insane. It would also be like stain on her life. Maybe it could work if Zuko drops everything for her instead but that also wouldn’t make sense for him.

>>154296605
I don’t know man, I feel like catching feelings for someone who attacked your village and manhandled your grandmother, betraying and indirectly causing the near death of your friend after trusting them and taking a long while to get over that could affect a long term relationship together. I don’t think Shu was attacking Ouma at any point plus they actually had a romantic relationship rather than be enemies to friends iirc.

>>154296723
funny how this never effects kataras ability to befriend him. trauma seems to only matter with you when it comes to romance. again, oma and shu already set the precedent, they were literal enemies from warring tribes.

>>154296723
also it was azula who nearly killed aang which zuko technically enabled, but she can call it even when zuko almost died for her

I'm willing to accept Zutara as long as everyone else is willing to accept Aang gets a harem, which include Katara, to repopulate the airbending numbers. Zuko has to wait until Katara finally births three airbenders before he's allowed to impregnate her himself.

>>154296798
As I said, it was never said Oma and Shu actually fought each other lol. Gaining friendship is different than gaining romantic feelings, yes.

>>154296823
That’s why I said indirectly. Even then, that wouldn’t really lead into romance when everyone is putting their lives on the line+past events.

>>154296723
Zuko was prepared to die for Katara in the finale. He took a (lightning) bullet for her. A huge part of both their character arcs was Katara forgiving Zuko, and Zuko earning that forgiveness. People acting like Katara could never catch feelings for Zuko is so silly to me. They were close enough to trust each other with their lives.

>>154296618
She's not some retard that wastes 60% of her salary on worthless therapy seasons. I'm sure she got better.
If she was as thin-skinned as you suggest, she would not have been able to wear fire nation clothing to begin with. Did you even watch season 3?

>>154297121
they were still literal enemies, the trauma they endured from each others tribe doesn’t count because they may not have directly participated? any type of relationship would be effected by trauma, why does your view extend to just one and not the other
>everyone putting their lives on the line
what a copout… by that logic you can just excuse Zuko’s indirect involvement with azula zapping aang as “everyone was fighting in a war”. your saying these situations dont lead to relationships as if this isnt a timeless trope, but all your arguments require selective reading of what happened.

>>154297763
So the fuck what? She should catch feelings for him for being a shield? Maybe if it were a wattpad fic.

>>154297898
There’s a difference between temporary infiltration versus spending the rest of your life there.
>Thin skinned
Yep I’m out. Talking to a zutarda about why an indigenous woman choosing to marry into a nation that nearly destroyed her culture is pointless.

>>154297931
They also aren’t the same people and went through different circumstances. If Shun tried to initially hunt and kill her too I’d call it weird.
>what a copout… by that logic you can just excuse Zuko’s indirect involvement with azula zapping aang as “everyone was fighting in a war”.
Huh? How can you excuse that? He’s not the innocent/neutral party here, his actions led to a negative impact on her that she took time to heal from. Why should he benefit anymore than trust from a deed the others would do too?
>your saying these situations dont lead to relationships
Definitely not a healthy one lol.

Anyone got any good Mai fics?

>>154299343
>So the fuck what? She should catch feelings for him for being a shield?
No. The point is the idea that she could catch feelings for him isn't as crazy as you're making it out to be. The writers clearly didn't think it was crazy either.

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>>154268317
she's taken

>>154293729
Yeah this was the most important part of the Boiling Rock

>>154299343
>went through different circumstances.
your entire initial point was that katara's trauma due to the war would be a factor working against the idea. the point of bringing up oma and shu that you keep trying to pivot away from is that the show itself doesn't agree that such an angle couldn't work regardless of the circumstance.
>If Shun tried to initially hunt and kill her too
Zuko never actually tried to kill or was ever hunting katara by the way. I know a lot of aangfags like to equate zuko's actions to aang as having happened to katara, but that's not how that works.
>why an indigenous woman choosing to marry into a nation that nearly destroyed her culture is pointless.
You sound exactly like one of those deranged twitter niggers who view interracial relationships involving white people as evil because le evil colonization, while working right back to being racist in the most retarded and self unaware way possible. Again, the sins of the father do not pass onto their whole bloodline. she wouldn't be marrying the nation that did terrible shit to her people, she would be marrying the guy who put in end to it.
>his actions led to a negative impact on her that she took time to heal from.
And his later actions led to her gaining closure on her mom's death, then saved her life. you dont get to say one is significant here but not the other.
>Why should he benefit anymore than trust from a deed the others would do too?
Because he actually did it.... it doesn't matter that others 'would do it too'. saving someones life is such an obvious spark towards a potential relationship down the line that you would have to be an autist to not get this. this shit happens all the time.
>Definitely not a healthy one lol.
The irony of trying to speak on healthy relationships while having an unhealthy view of people by attributing the actions of the few to entire groups of people is not lost here lol. agree to disagree

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>>154302453
>The writers clearly didn't think it was crazy either.
friendly reminder that two anons asked for proof of this, got btfo with numerous citations in this thread, and it's been crickets ever since.

>>154273408
>how does my cum taste like?

>>154290809
You......want Aang x Zuko?
But why?