>*has the worst Batman episodes on your path*
>>154339173For some reason B:TAS never gave Penquin or Joker an introductory episode. Like it was assumed they were already Batman villains before the series started. Yet every other villain got a introductory/origin episode.
>>154339237>For some reason B:TAS never gave Penquin or Joker an introductory episode.Because the Burton movies were still fresh on everyone's mind.
>>154339237Timm and Dini likely assumed everybody was already familiar with Joker and Penguin from the Burton films and felt there was no need to go too deep into them, especially since they disliked their Burton origins and tried to brush them aside as much as possible.
>>154339173'Birds of a Feather' was good. I love stories where a villain makes an honest attempt at trying to reform and gets pushed back into villainy.
>>154339270>>154339287Catwoman got an introductory episode though.
>>154339308Because Timm and Dini had to rewrite her away from Burton's psycho secretary and turn her into an animal-rights activist on the execs' orders.
>>154339173Penguin was insanely dull for the longest time. Despite nowadays being seen as Batman's number 2 villain after Joker back in the day he was a boring gentleman thief who put penguin statues over the placeThat's the reason Burton redesigned him, originally Batman Returns was going to be Catwoman only but the execs asked for Penguin and Burton liked the animal motif and found a version of the Penguin which was far more dynamic and interesting and mirrored Batman much like Catwoman and JokerBurton Penguin became the inspiration for a lot of later iconic Penguin stories like Penguin Pride and Prejudice or his character in the Arkham gamesBut TAS was a show for kids so Penguin had to be toned back to his old boring self. Same with Catwoman, again there's a reason Burton redesigned them and they became iconic, not just cause he's weird. They were genuinely dull characters before the films (yes, even counting Year One and Long Halloween), unlike Joker
>>154339173well no. While it is true he is the worst classic batman villain to have maintained a kind of "headliner rogue" status and I have never understood why. Blind as a Bat is an awesome episode, and his VA was always great.
>>154339173The biggest issue is that he's a boring villain and worse he's visually unappealing. He's not stylish like Two Face in that his facial scars make him look distinct. Penguin is merely a dumpy fat guy even if he doesn't have the slight bird features. That and his entire shtick is that he's a boring regular crime lord which makes him dull compared to Batman's more eccentric rogues. Never even bothered watching that live action Penguin series because the character is boring as dirt.
>>154341222His design is neat
>>154339237That's what they written in the show bible. Every first villain appearance will be the Batman's first encounter with them but the Joker and the Penguin
>>154339173>>154339516He was always the number 2 villain, with Riddler as number 3. I think Penguin had at least 1 highlight episode with 'Birds of a Feather'. It was more Catwoman that suffered. Her notable episodes in the series are ones where she's paired up with other villains or characters and a direct-to-DVD short, and one of her most notable roles didn't even feature her as a villain. She didn't really have a defining episode.
>>154339173>not harley or ivysure buddy
>>154339173I can't remember a single good Poison Ivy episode, besides that one where Alfred had a girlfriend. Like >>154341120said, there's some fun to be had with Penguin.
>>154341520I wish Batman got together with Cheetah. That Justice league episode was kino, can't believe there isn't more porn of that scenario.
>>154339173>hire Paul Williams to voice Penguin>never do an episode where he singssad
>>154339173I'm not sure how Timm saw Danny DeVito and decided that Penguin should be a well spoken pseudo-Brit accented gentleman. >>154339237It was sort of a light sequel to the movies so Joker and Penguin were introduced already. Penguin also had the flipper fingers thing going on.
>>154341120DC really liked using him in the 70s. Whenever they put together an ensemble group of villains Penguin was usually the goto Batman villain of the group.
>>154341222Isn't that why writers will sometimes make him into a bird themed supervillain that steals bird statues and using hummingbird umbrellas or something weird like that? Seems like Penguin is constantly bouncing back and forth between crime boss in a tuxedo, and bird themed crazy guy with bird gadgets that steals bird themed museum pieces.
>>154341991He was based more on the comics’ version
>>154341344The problem with Catwoman is that she does not make big grand schemes or elaborate revenge plots. she is just a thief. She is the kind of person the big scheme villains hire for their elaborate plots. So for a cartoon episode, a Catwoman plot consists of she steals something, Batman gets it back. It's a dull script to sell to a network when they want over the top cartoon adventures with robots and huge elaborate plots. So at best Catwoman has to be a third wheel in an episode that mainly has another bigger villain doing something on a larger scale.
>>154341681>there's some fun to be had with Penguin.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSOCfSH2gv0absolutely!
>>154339289Any other examples come to mind?
>>154342151nice analysis
I don't mind The Penguin being an upper crust crime lord. It seems like whenever writers try to change him to make him more interesting, it just comes off as stupid. Like the Arkham Games version with the bottle stuck in his eye.
>>154342151https://anbat.popgeeks.com/btas/catwalk.htmlhttps://anbat.popgeeks.com/essays/wkw.htm
>>154339289>'Birds of a Feather' was good.That one hurt to watch as a kid. Nothing like that ever happened to me, though. Haha. Imagine.
>>154344557Mmm... Upper crust...
>>154339287>especially since they disliked their Burton origins and tried to brush them aside as much as possible.Dini and Timm actually like Joker's origin from the '89 movie since it makes more sense that Joker was never a decent person, he just needed his "one bad day" to give him an excuse to unleash his id. BtAS even canonized that Joker was a mob enforcer / hitman like in Batman '89 in Mask of the Phantasm.
>>154349709That guy can't be the Joker, where's the red lipstick?
>>154344557>Expect him to whip out a gimmick umbrella weapon>The entire stand opens up to reveal a good ol' ThompsonNice subversion.
>>154341991>I'm not sure how Timm saw Danny DeVito and decided that Penguin should be a well spoken pseudo-Brit accented gentleman.Paul Williams was already cast and recording his voice as Penguin before executives made Bruce Timm design Penguin to look like Danny DeVito in Returns. The original design for BtAS was closer to the comics look.
>>154341344He was number 2 in the show because he was number 2 in the '66 show. But ultimately Penguin was a very boring character until Burton, only Meredith being himself saved the character (a lot of the actors in the West series saved their characters really)>>154349709This is literally the point of The Killing Joke, the comic literally says Joker was always insane and his One Bad Day is a bad excuse since Gordon and Bruce have both lived through many horrible days and never broke the way he did. By the end of the story the Joker is philosophically defeated and admits to himself that he's too far gone
>>154349709He should be Red Hood before he's the Joker.
>>154339289I just watched that this weekend. Why do women think it's okay to be horrible to men?
I really like Birds of a Feather as well as Blind as a Bat. He also contributed to some great ones like Almost Got 'Im and The Strange Secret of Bruce Wayne.
>>154344472Riddler's Reform, Harley's Holiday, and Double Talk all come to mind (all BTAS)In Reform, Riddler is released and gets a job with a toy company, but quickly returns to criminal activity - filling puzzle toys with stolen antiques, and plotting to kill Batman when he's been found out.In Holiday, Harley manages to get parole and has the opportunity to reintegrate into society, but struggles with it and ends up having a rough day that escalates into her being wanted by the police and caught up with other criminals. It ends with her being taken back to Arkham, realizing she has more work to do before she's ready, and a surprisingly touching moment between her and Batman where he empathizes and remarks that he understands how hard it is trying to rebuild a life and that he 'had a bad day too, once'.In Talk, Arnold Wesker (the Ventriloquist) is released and tries to rebuild his life, but his old henchmen harass him using a Scarface dummy and try to drive him to having a mental breakdown so their 'boss' will come back. Wesker falters, but manages to 'betray' Scarface and throw him into a fan where he's 'killed'. Wesker never appears again (outside an alternate universe cameo in JLU) so I think the implication is supposed to be that he managed to permanently reform.
>>154353104Anon that's sexist.Women also think it's okay to be horrible to each other!
Because The Killing Joke never occurs over the course of B:TAS, Harley is the only character to make/hear Bruce laugh.Unlike TKJs laugh, he's laughing partially *at* Harley for falling for Joker's sweettalking [Joker in B:TAS being Batman 1989 Joker / "Jack Napier" who doesn't have a sad backstory like TKJs Joker and is canonically just lying].But also in a gallows humour sense, because as he explains to Joker upon him ruining Harley's plan with his tard rage, he actually had been checkmated, he couldn't get his hands or legs loose, was struggling not to blackout and had no idea if Barb or Robin were coming to save him [and they seemingly weren't] - The 'joke' being that he thought he was about to die to the comic relief, not even as part of some crazy finale/coda battle where Joker tries to nuke Gotham or smth, but to a fangirl trying to prove herself.
>>154339173Croc got it worse than Penguin.
>>154354346It's kinda ironic how he's given a lot more depth and better designs in every show or comic appearance he had after BTAS.
He's an "evil 50s Chiraq mob boss" character archetype with very little interesting stuff going on characterisation wise asides from that.Someone like Black Mask at the very least has a little bit of backstory and seems to be a play on the physical/head-trauma=serial killer hypothesis.
>>154353671Don't forget Second Chance.In Riddler's Reform, he wasn't planning on going straight. From the get go, he was still trying to fuck with Batman.
>>154349813Penguin was on of the few guys that saw a massive design improvement with the redesign. I never liked literal monster Penguin outside of the Burton movie.
>>154339173still a goated villain
>>154339173>his only good solo villain episode is the one where he tried to retire from crimeIronic.
>>154341681>he didn't like the episode where Poison Ivy raped her parole officer and kept him in her basement sexnasium to make evil cactus monsters voiced by Jim Cummings
>>154353671>>154354994Riddler's Reform is a weird case where he was technically not committing any capers himself, but still basically cooperating with his goons just to prove how smart and untouchable he was. He actually did want to go straight when it became clear Batman would get him, but only after he showed his whole ass and ruined everything for himself.
>>154351179>This is literally the point of The Killing Joke, the comic literally says Joker was always insane and his One Bad Day is a bad excuse since Gordon and Bruce have both lived through many horrible days and never broke the way he did.He's not even insane, it's very clear from the end and Joker dropping the act that it was always a persona he put on. We see who he really is in just a few panels, but the Joker is just a performance.
>>154342151This is why the 60s show made her into another standard villain with matching uniformed goons like everyone else. A cat burglar was not really villain enough for tv. >>154342094It's the same story here. Lots of people think a mob boss guy is not villain enough for Batman and all his villains need to be costumed gimmick guys in some way. But since his name is the Penguin, it's actually weirder to remove the tuxedo so they settled for a total bird theme and gadget umbrellas.
>>154339173>>154341991>>154349813I always thought it was weird how Tim Burton decided on Joker having the mob goons in hats and suits, while Penguin got the circus minions with gadgety clown props and killer juggler weapons.
>>154357775Burton didn't "decide" on that with Joker, he had very little creative control on Batman '89. Returns was where he was allowed to make the movie he wanted.
>>154357714Bruce did the same shit. his bad day caused him to go put on a mask, spend millions on crime gadgets and goes out to beat the shit out of poor people every night. He's just much more focused on his >I want to punish them allmentality than Joker.
>>154357889>poor peopleShut up, pseudo-normalfag
>>154357889>and goes out to beat the shit out of poor people every nightPoor people committing violent crimes, I don't think he immediately resorts to violence to deal with larceny, when he has gadgets to subdue the ones that don't turn to violence to get away.
>>154356662The tie-in comic did the idea better with "The Last Riddler Story Ever". Riddler's so fed up with Batman always solving his riddles and beating him that he swears that if he loses just one more time while stealing a priceless diamond, he's giving up and going straight. Batman does catch him, but admits that he never solved the riddle and simply followed the other criminals who were trying to steal the diamond themselves. Riddler is so overjoyed at having stumped Batman for once that he happily goes back to prison with renewed hope for his career
>>154357889You are retarded, the comic literally says that what Bruce does is not comparable to the Joker, Joker hurts random people because he's crazy whereas Bruce stops criminals because they hurt othersThat's why he tells the Joker "I heard the joke, and it wasn't funny the first time" unlike the Joker, Bruce didn't become a murdering lunatic who believes life is a joke or whatever when his parents died, he decided to do good and save Gotham, same with Gordon when his daughter got crippled or when he got beat up by fellow coworkers for not being dirty
>>154357889>"poor people"
>>154358203>Bolland colorsGross.Post the original next time.
>>154358677I recall Clayface beating Dagget up way more than Batman.
>>154349709Also, the show directly calls him "Jack Napier" at one point.
I think the "grounded, gritty" Batman concept that has gotten really popular in the past 20 years has done a lot of damage to people's perception of the character and setting. Despite his lack of powers, Batman was always a SUPERhero. He's supposed to be exceptional. You give an entire precinct Bruce's resources and they wouldn't be able to achieve a fraction of the shit he manages to do completely on his own. This is a man who's supposed to stand alongside the likes of Superman. He's extraordinary, larger than life.There's an idea that Batman's one-man crusade on crime is silly and ineffectual, that he would be able to achieve more by donating his money to charity whatever. But that's never been the point. The idea was that Gotham would be in ruins by now if it weren't for Batman. That this one man is singlehandedly responsible for saving the entire city time and time again, and has even been a vital asset to saving the entire goddamn world a few times. If Batman ever stopped existing, Gotham would be fucked. He's not just some guy going out at night beating up homeless schizophrenics. He is fighting absurdities like an ice man in a super suit who, if left to his own devices, could easily freeze the entire goddamn city in a single night. But in a "grounded and gritty" setting, you can't sell this idea. Yes, he's good, but he can't be THAT much better than the cops, because he's just one man and there's only so much one man can do regardless of the amount of money he has access to. So millennials who think they know better look at this character and roll their eyes, calling him out for not doing anything to TRULY fix the core issues. Half of Bruce's rogues gallery are superhumanly gifted enough to bring an entire city to its knees within eight hours. You could bring the entire national guard in and his rogues would humiliate and destroy them.
>>154349709Seems like a minor retcon, before the movie they hinted at the "failed comedian" backstory
>>154357714Then the story should have ended with joker being declared sane and executed
>>154353104>Why do women think it's okay to be horrible to men?Because women have no accountability. Women know that they will never be castigated for anything they do due to shitty simps. Why do you think the finale of Harley's story is.....she got away with her life of crime. Same to that bitch Ivy. DCAU is unwatchable because the writers are shitty simps. Too many female criminals got excused.One of the most stand out episodes of female villains being excused is the origin of Two Face when Harvey is about to snap right before his face is scarred he goes wild trying to beat up all the male crooks antagonizing him BUT he conveniently doesn't attack the token bitch who was working for the same male criminals. And you got to remember this was Harvey tapping into his evil side, so his evil side is unwilling to hurt a cunt who deserves it.And another Batman example that always annoyed me is the movie Batman Under the Red Hood with Black Mask's habit of beating up his assistants but ONLY the male ones while his annoying obnoxious smug female assistant always delivers bad news to him knowing that he will not punch her. God I hated that cunt. Shame Joker was interrupted from killing her because that was the ONLY time in that movie where she was actually scared when she was dealing with a man who wasn't a simp.Simp writers need to be castrated and then killed. These fuckers ruin too many stories.
>>154360207If you want to transition Harley to an antihero, she kinda has to get away with her crimes because you can't half a spin-off of a character who's stuck in jail the whole time.
>>154360069>before the movieBrother, the show exists BECAUSE of the movie. There was no "before the movie" with Batman The Animated Series. Batman came out June of 1989, Batman the Animated Series premiered Fall of 1992.
>>154360099>Then the story should have ended with joker being declared sane and executedCool, tell Alan Moore and Brian Bolland that, I didn't write it.
>>154360652>If you want to transition Harley to an antiheroThat's the problem though, she shouldn't be one.If they stuck with Harley as she was in BTAS it might be a possibility, but comic Harley has been "Joker with tits and dumber" for the longest time, so now no one but the most casuals and/or feminists among the audience would buy that as even a remote possibility.This won't stop Warner from trying to push it though because, as a female character, she can't be actually an agressor but always some form of victim, and this is exactly the mentality the few who like her antihero spin have as well.
>>154360923You and I both know that the decision to give Harley her own solo series as an antihero was primarily an executive one. Harley became really popular in the past ten years, and they wanted to capitalize on that. Every single editorial decision is about money/.
>>154357714i'll say this, people who criticizes the 3 jonklers, always forgets how TKJ went.Also people forgets how many times the joker said that the batman shouldnt be free, but stuck with them at arkham because he is as insane as them.
>>154357714>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zls00kU6ePo&t=254scan't believe they ruined this in the film
>>154360958>i'll say this, people who criticizes the 3 jonklers, always forgets how TKJ went.I ultimately think that 3 Jokers was dumb and unnecessary, but the twist that "the comedian" Joker's family weren't dead but in the witness protection program because he was actually a pos even before the Ace Chemical bath didn't bother me. Joker has always been an unreliable narrator, and it fits other abusers psychological profiles that he'd see himself as the "victim" despite being an abusive husband.
>>154360951>You and I both know that the decision to give Harley her own solo series as an antihero was primarily an executive oneTwo truths can exists at the same time.It's certainly true that the aim for such changes is ultimately to make profit, it's also true that they're fueled by an ideological belief, in this specific case it's a form of gynocentrism.They simply think that feminism (something they believe in) is also where the money is because they think it's where the general consesus is.We've seen the emails and social messages of a lot of those top corporate stooges, it's clear that it's not just about the money.
>>154351179>only Meredith being himself saved the character (a lot of the actors in the West series saved their characters really)Very true about Meredith. Gorshin, too, elevated the Riddler to major status through sheer force of will, charisma, and talent.
