What are /co/'s thoughts on the Onslaught Saga? Is it what really kickstarted the whole "Xavier is an asshole" perception? Also do you think it could serve as the MCU's next big threat to deal with considering that supposedly next phase is gonna be focusing on the X-men and FF?
I like it because CHADulk SMASHES JOBslaught.
>>154561881>Also do you think it could serve as the MCU's next big threat to deal with considering that supposedly next phase is gonna be focusing on the X-men and FF?I hope not. I really want the MCU to stay away from the "Xavier is such piece of shit with dark urges" bullshit. We have enough of immoral/psycopath/borderline-evil/asshole Xavier in the comics. Just let him be a strong moral pillar. Some shadiness, sure, but fuck off with the villain shit. Christ.
>>154561881>thoughtsIt's pretty terrible; the wider books show clearly that Marvel had no idea what Onslaught was going to be or do when they launched into it, and the eventual core fight is just a big beatdown. It's sort of anti-X-Men in that it's intended to launch the Heroes Reborn franchise (which failed for other reasons) and so only the non-mutants can fight Onslaught, but they all die doing it and are "reborn". Other than that it's got less characterisation than the average episode of G1 Transformers; there's less moral quandary or pathos than Dark Phoenix/The trial of Jean Grey (which glosses over her being a genocidal lunatic because she's on the team) or House of M (which glosses hard over Magneto and Xavier mind-raping Wanda for months, even if Xavier - somehow - was eventually an unwilling participant; not much later he'd also conspire to have Hulk shot into space, with similarly dire results).>"Xavier is an asshole" that's harder to say; Xavier undoubtedly is an asshole now, but the retcons and the impenetrable volume of X-Men shit that's been printed since the early 1990s makes it impossible to really know when people started seeing him as a dick, or even really why; he just is, so his latest dick moves don't really register>the MCU's next big threat good lord no, I think the MCU will be lucky to get away with even one X movie that sells better than the average Phase 6 or whatever we're on. They've really hurt the brand bringing in shit old franchises from other studios. Spider-Man getting a reboot was the way to go; they didn't bring back Tobey or Andrew until the new guy was established, and even so - nobody wants it every movie.to set up Onslaught would mean establishing Xavier and Magneto - the new guys, because god love em the old ones are going to be dead before there's time for this - and ageing up Franklin, and then that weird child-catcher bit Onslaught does, and then... back to square one, not a good event story
>>154561906you like an event that creates a second She-Hulk for no reason and never even acknowledges doing so?
>>154561881>What are /co/'s thoughts on the Onslaught Saga?X-fag groupthink has always veered between "it's when 90s X-books got bad" and "reeee 90s bad, if it's not by Claremont it's bad" so you're probably going to get a lot of that.The build-up suffered from them just having the idea of a big powerful new villain named Onslaught with no real plans for who and what he was, and the detail being rushed together at the last minute, and a behind the scenes fallout over who it was going to be, but back then Marvel were generally good at maintaining the illusion that they had a plan for all of their books and most people had no idea what was going on behind the scenes. Onslaught was originally planned as an X-Men event that got turned into a Marvel-wide event as a way to write out the Avengers and FF for Heroes Reborn, as Marvel weren't legally allowed to publish their own competing titles with those character while they were being outsourced to Wildstorm and Extreme, but this ended up giving the event more scale and impact than it otherwise would have had, and put Onslaught over as a much bigger threat than just another new X-Men villain.A lot of the tie-ins are skippable, and reading the main story itself can't have the impact now it did back then, but after the last 20 years of Marvel events this one probably deserves to be reevaluated as not being as bad as the haters say, as do a lot of books from that era.
continuing from >>154561971>Is it what really kickstarted the whole "Xavier is an asshole" perception?Not really, they went out of their way to absolve Xavier as much as possible. Waid supposedly wanted Onslaught to just be a permanent Xavier heel turn but nobody else did. Whedon's Danger storyline and Brubaker's Deadly Genesis happening very close together in the mid 2000s were really what did lasting damage to Xavier's reputation in a way no previous story had ever done, because previous writers treated him as a good but flawed man, but by the mid 2000s seemed to have internalized the idea from Morrison's run that Xavier was an old man with outdated ideas and nothing left to offer, someone who needed to retire and go away, but because nobody ever really goes away in comics, they dragged him through the mud until enough stuck.>Also do you think it could serve as the MCU's next big threat to deal with considering that supposedly next phase is gonna be focusing on the X-men and FF?Are they really going to put too much weight on the FF after their movie just did sort of OK, and they don't even know how well MCU X-Men is going to do yet, building a whole phase around them seems presumptuous. Adaptations in general have tended to avoid Onslaught and allegedly the X-Men 97 gay blackman was told he was allowed to use Onslaught in that show. So it would be surprising if the movies did it. Onslaught's main legacy outside of comics is likely to remain being more liked by Marvel vs Capcom fans than by comics readers.
>>154562028>and allegedly the X-Men 97 gay blackman was told he was allowed to use Onslaught in that show.I meant was told he WASN'T allowed to use Onslaught in that show.
>>154561958I think there's room for telling the original Shadow King story, maybe with the Storm retcons in, as a way of introducing the new Xavier and showing why he ends up heroic despite being close friends with noted loon Magnetobut yeah in general I'd stay away from the Vulcan origin story, even the Illuminati (which was fine as a bunch of alt-universe assholes in Doctor Strange, but doesn't work as a general concept for Our Heroes)I mean if you absolutely have to have Xavier solos - and I don't see how that's avoidable if we're supposed to have an entire phase of movies and shows based on the goddamn X-Men - then I would much rather Shadow King than Muir Island/Proteus/Legion secret-son bullshit, whatever the fuck is meant to be going on with Moira McTaggart you were a housekeeper once! a HOUSEKEEPER! who I assume has been revealed as the Celestials' boss or something by now, or taking a weird road trip with precocious doll-child Nina the Manniteand better anything than a movie about Random or Maggott
>>154561970>that angry She-Hulkfag views entire events through what happened to She-Hulk in themOf course you do.And that's not even something that happens on-panel in Onslaught thing, that's a Heroes Reborn miscommunication thing. A number of additional characters like She-Hulk and the Inhumans that the Heroes Reborn books had the rights to use were supposed to get written out at the end of Onslaught, but they didn't get worked into the finale of the story, Marvel came up with some excuse about how they were going to put extra pages in the trade to show this, but it didn't happen, and somehow She-Hulk ended up being the one character where nobody could agree on whether she'd gone to Heroes Reborn or not, the HR books had the right to use her and did, while she still showed up in some 616 books like Heroes For Hire as well during the same time.There was clearly some loophole clause in the contract that let Marvel keep using Hulk and Silver Surfer despite them being in Heroes Reborn, She-Hulk may have been covered by the same thing.Ultimately it didn't end up really being a problem until Peter David wrote Heroes Reborn: The Return and treated the HR version of She-Hulk like a 616 native returning back home with the other heroes, and didn't address there still being a She-Hulk back in 616.
>>154561881The Xavier protocols did that actually. Onslaught was the culmination. The evil magneto infection bug thing was pure faggotry though. The idea that Xavier knew better then anyone that he could be a planetary threat that almost no one alive could stop and set up multiple internal locks and checks and balances to prevent it is more interesting then him being pure good. Yes I'm sick of all heroic patronly figures being secretly EBUL. But this isn't that. In this instance he's a normal man who fully understood the power he held and did everything in his power and sacrificed much of who he is to become the leader of the Xmen and face of mutants and humans co-existing and mutants are just humans thing.Think about it. Xavier spends most of his time creating a school to help teach mutants who gathered their power self restraint and self control. It speaks to who he is and how much he is sacrificing. That he practices what he preaches. This would need a few moments where he considers brainwashing the entire worlds population to think how he wants or shows that he could take out the entire xmen squad or even flexing his full power occasionally to hammmer it home. The Onslaught thing was a partial acknowledgement that xavier isn't a saint but a good man with great power who lives responsibly. In reality that's far more then anyone can hope for. >>154561963The idea behind onslaught is sound. They'll just have to remove some of the dumber aspects. Like the magneto thing, the franklin richards and nate grey thing and maybe the beat down at the end. Heroic sacrifice after defeating the xmen and others would be good.
>>154562168>The evil magneto infection bug thing was pure faggotry though.The idea that Onslaught is the combination of Xavier's repressed dark side AND Magneto's evil is a solid enough idea, it's just the implementation of that idea in that origin issue that was lame.Handle it correctly and Onslaught is the 'son' of the two leaders of the mutant community, and the embodiment of all of their worst traits, and all of their power with none of Xavier's restraint.I do like how Onslaught ended with him realizing mutants were no better than humans and would ruin the world even worse, and it drove him genocidally insane.
>>154562210>solid enough idea,It's fundamentally the stupidest fucking shit I've ever read. As for mutants and humans both bad because muh planet ruining? That's even fucking stupider. It's sub cosmic tier powerful and immortal and can control minds. That's not a problem a night lovecraftian monster like it can't solve. And the "ME HULK MADDEST EVER" being what defeats it was so fucking stupid.
>>154561963>the Heroes Reborn franchise (which failed for other reasons)Critics and a lot of longtime fans of those books hated it, but those books sold really really well, Heroes Reborn wasn't a failure by any means, but it was something Marvel editorial had spent the last year trying to prevent, their people had lost work because of those books being outsourced, they didn't want it to succeed or to last and wanted those titles back in-house ASAP.>there's less moral quandary or pathosTo be fair, are these things you're even looking for in a big summer event story where a big powerful supervillain threatens the world and all the heroes have to team up to stop him and even some villains help out? Making Onslaught some sort of tragic figure or trying to give him a moral point couldn't have helped anything.>Dark Phoenix/The trial of Jean Grey (which glosses over her being a genocidal lunatic because she's on the teamAnd to be fair, because the artist added in a genocide scene the writer hadn't written then everyone tried to just ignore it as best as possible and keep rolling with the original plot until the EIC stepped in.>House of M (which glosses hard over Magneto and Xavier mind-raping Wanda for monthsWasn't Xavier just telepathically keeping her sedated? I don't remember it being as bad as you make it sound.>to set up Onslaught would mean establishing Xavier and MagnetoSadly it seems inevitable that any X-Men reboot is just going to go right back to Xavier and Magneto doing the same old thing but with new actors anyway, and it's exactly what fans want to the point most can't imagine not doing Xavier/Magneto yet again. The MCU really should just avoid using Magneto, Mystique or Stryker at all and focus on other villains, but people even here tend to get angry at even the suggestion of not having Magneto there from the start.
>>154562242>It's fundamentally the stupidest fucking shit I've ever read.Ever? You must be really new to comics. It's good that you didn't start with something modern I guess.>As for mutants and humans both bad because muh planet ruining? That's even fucking stupider.You don't seem to get it, anon. Onslaught taking up a Magneto-inspired crusade against humans to put mutants on top and then coming to a shock realization that these mutants are assholes and when they were in charge of a world thing were even worse and it mindbroke him, that's a pretty good plot twist for an event story like this. Especially considering the alternative would just leave him as Bigger Magneto.>It's sub cosmic tier powerful and immortal and can control minds. That's not a problem a night lovecraftian monster like it can't solve.There's no point where we're ever led to believe that Onslaught wants to maintain order by mind-controlling everyone all of the time and just puppeteering a planet of slaves. Just because he COULD do that doesn't mean he wants to.>And the "ME HULK MADDEST EVER" being what defeats it was so fucking stupid.>Onslaught was finally defeated by Hulk shattering his armorOK, so you didn't even read it properly.
>>154562288>Making Onslaught some sort of tragic figure or trying to give him a moral pointno, no, not Onslaught: Xavier and Magneto; there's just no fallout from it10 years later they do basically the same thing inside the Scarlet Witch's mind and her powers turn the world into a worse place, and there's no real fallout for them from that either - it's all directed at Wanda, the victim of manipulation by her father and his best friendwould you want to be telepathically sedated by your father's best friend for months when, to be clear, you could just have sedatives? it's at best crazy overreach; but it's also notable that for example on Utopia, even though Storm lived there, you never saw her just making free electricity for the island to export to nearby San Francisco; these powers only get used in this way when it's absolutely essential to firmly physically control another person who's doing something they don't likeit's a bad concept>it seems inevitable I'd be happy with an X-Men that didn't do anything about mutant rights and simply went straight into the space aliens, but not the Shi'Ar or the Brood, both of whom are just a little too extra>the artist added in a genocide scene the writer hadn't written then everyone tried to just ignore it both Byrne and Claremont have claimed responsibility for deliberately adding that detail, and it's clearly in Claremont's original script for Byrne - who later appeared not to remember thatnot only were they both then responsible, they both rather liked the idea of her killing a whole planet - but the idea was at the time that she'd in turn be killed off, not rescued by her unaccountable teammates, who would later go on to run a murder-squad of child soldiers under different writers
>>154562288>people even here tend to get angry at even the suggestion of not having Magneto there from the start.i don't want magneto anywhere near the Xmen anymore. I would rather have the Acolytes lead by Sinister or at least an Apocalypse proxy.
>>154562168>Like the magneto thingIf you do that then you'd have to fundamentally change his iconic design which is obviously supposed to look like Magneto.
>>154562338>Ever? You must be really new to comics. It's good that you didn't start with something modern I guess.Just because other shit is stupid, doesn't mean something else is not fucking retarded. >You don't seem to get it, anon. Onslaught taking up a Magneto-inspired crusade against humans to put mutants on top and then coming to a shock realization that these mutants are assholes and when they were in charge of a world thing were even worse and it mindbroke him, that's a pretty good plot twist for an event story like this. Especially considering the alternative would just leave him as Bigger Magneto.It's a last second asspull to give him an impetous that's easy to see is evil. It was dumb and flew in the face of it being xavier or magneto. Xavier would probably want to eliminate threats to human mutant cohabitation and had some labrynthine justification for doing everything. And magneto would be perfectly fine with a barely functional hell hole of a world as long as he had his mutant israel with only the mutant's surviving. >There's no point where we're ever led to believe that Onslaught wants to maintain order by mind-controlling everyone all of the time and just puppeteering a planet of slaves. Just because he COULD do that doesn't mean he wants to.Why not? He could just...do that. He's not lacking in power and there is no logical reason for him not to do it since he's fully ebul and all. >>Onslaught was finally defeated by Hulk shattering his armor>OK, so you didn't even read it properly.A hulk hopped up on jean grey brand mind rage hit him hard enough to break his armor. Now think about that. An entity that is purely psionic and is the most powerful psionic in the galaxy at that moment...was beaten by a motherfucker who's weak point is his entirely unshielded and weak to psionics mind.
>>154562401Good. His design is pure magneto wank and changing it to be gold and black and remove much of the design similarities to magnus would work best.
Did they ever do anything with Onslaught after the event?
>>154562480Red Skull did some stuff with it I think and Onslaught was one of Dr Doom's lackeys in World under Doom if I recall but I could be wrong.
Since X men 97 is bringing him back, I hope they keep it a solely Xavier thing, Onslaught being the personification of Xavier’s self doubt in his dream and a vision of what could happen if he let loose/abandoned his goal is compelling enough without magneto getting fused into it
>Is it what really kickstarted the whole "Xavier is an asshole" perception?No, Xavier-goes-bad plots were a staple of Claremont's in the 80s.It had a few good moments, but it was ultimately editorially-driven event slop and those are never good.
>>154562480He's the villain in Way of X during the Krakoa era which led to Legion making like his own Astral Plane to help monitor everyone's psyche.
>>154562580I think would be best. Should start with the miur island saga and a fight between xavier and shadowking on the astral plane leading to him to tap into his well...forbidden powers to defeat him leading to him.A battle where magneto nearly kills the team leads to a mental breakdown and him pulling the OP with Magneto showing he could have killed him at any point but chose not too.
Good hype, really dumb conclusion.
>>154561970I read it and I don't remember that, I just remembered regular Hulk sperging out cause he remembered he killed his dad, him taking a town hostage, becoming a horseman of apocalypse, beating up Juggernaut and ultimately punching Onslaught really hard.
>>154562920>becoming a horseman of apocalypse, beating up JuggernautIsn't this from Age of Apocalypse which was basically an AU?
>>154563072No, it happened in PAD's Hulk run.
>>154561958>We have enoughMoviefags don't know about it, though.
>>154563072Nope, regular 616, right before Apocalypse fucked off cause he heard Onslaught was coming.
>>154561881kitty pryde calling him a jerk started that. and hes always been a jerk.
>>154562920when the Heroes Reborn are returning to 616 on a rocket ship at the end, She-Hulk is with them despite not actually dying to Onslaught, or I think even being anywhere near the fightHulk was in both Heroes Reborn and 616 because Onslaught - sigh - only killed puny Banner, so the savage Hulk stayed in 616 and Banner ended up in HR, but this was explicitly and extensively dealt with on-page; She-Hulk was just kind of there at the end, implying that Franklin recreated her and she just decided to come back to 616 at the end; apparently she merged with her 616 self off-panel, but who fucking knows man, who fucking knowsanyway the lore reason for HR ending was the Celestials didn't like it (since it was apparently not a proper universe, just a pocket in 616 hidden in Earth's solar system), so, I don't know, I guess it starts badly with a dumb event that resets everything and kills a bunch of characters off by fiat and it ends badly with an entirely different set of assholes killing the universe off by fiat
>>154563236No
>>154563228can you imagine Apocalypse trying to get Hulk to stand still for the tailoring of that costume
>>154563271iirc he like robo tentacle rapes him to restrain him after he agrees to become War.
>>154563271Apocalypse beat the breaks off of Hulk.Not pussy ass professor hulk, or mr.fixit either. Full on raged out savage hulk.
>>154563257>when the Heroes Reborn are returning to 616Ah I see, my cut off was before that.
>>154563228What the fuck is that "art"?
>>154563340Cartoony styles were big at the time and Adam Kubert's always evolved with the times. Started out as a clone of his father, became Jim Lee-esque, then continued on.
The lead up to events like this is always better than the event itself
>>154561881Onslaught was a decent idea executed horribly like others said. I just wanted to add that the real moment that ruined forever xavier as a character was the secret second krakoa squad reveal. Hiding vulkan and the others was simply character assassination. He did shady shit like simulating death during the first squad days but nothing like this. Also this is off topic but vulkan sucks but at least we got darwin.
>>154562064KNOW MY NAME AND FEAR IT! I AM ONSLAUGHT!>>154562580Magneto needs to be involved somehow even if it's just Charles getting his powers and going crazy or something, you can't justify his cool armor otherwise
Went on for too long. Onslaught started getting new powers out the ass for no reason. Lead to a stupid attempt to reboot a bunch of characters.
>>154562480>Did they ever do anything with Onslaught after the event?It's all been diminishing returns, like most event villains. Loeb and Liefeld did Onslaught Reborn, where Loeb just wrote him as a mind control villain and forgot most of his other powers, it ended with him stuck in the Negative Zone, and got a sequel in the Heroic Age called Onslaught Unleashed, with the Secret Avengers and the Young Allies.The the clone Red Skull cosplayed as Onslaught during AXIS, and the real Onslaught briefly returned in an awful Krakoa book.
>>154562064Fuck this guy, I always mained spidey and this nigga is stupid hard if you don’t have a decent beam super
>>154562361>no, no, not Onslaught: Xavier and Magneto; there's just no fallout from itWell, Xavier turns himself over to SHIELD to take the fall for his part in Onslaught's existence. I'd agree that the fallout for him is underdeveloped and and not enough done with it so the books can leap to "Xavier gets imprisoned by Bastion and then disappears" instead of really dealing with the ramifications of Onslaught, but there wasn't nothing at all.But Magneto was presumed to have become Joseph at the time, so there's no real fallout for him beyond Joseph just having more to angst about the past he can't remember. Then he ends up not really being Magneto anyway.>10 years later they do basically the same thingYes, the House of M fallout is all about punishing Quicksilver and turning Scarlet Witch into a hated pariah, while Xavier and Magneto just get narratively punished by temporarily losing their powers, you're right that nobody treats it like either of them did anything wrong. I don't remember if the build-up to that event addressed whether they'd even tried sedating Wanda with conventional methods.>both Byrne and Claremont have claimed responsibility for deliberately adding that detailI've never heard of Claremont claiming responsibility for the alien genocide in that story.>but the idea was at the time that she'd in turn be killed offReading between the lines, it very much sounds like Claremont had told Byrne and the book's editor different things about his long term plans for Phoenix, with Byrne appearing to be under the impression they were doing a 'permanent' heel turn so it wouldn't matter what she did, while the editor seemed to think the whole thing was going to get resolved with an explanation that she was possessed or something.
>>154562414>Why not? He could just...do that.You're going to have to just accept "because he doesn't want to" as the reason. It's simply not something that was ever presented as a thing he wants to do.>Now think about that. An entity that is purely psionic and is the most powerful psionic in the galaxy at that moment...was beaten by a motherfucker who's weak point is his entirely unshielded and weak to psionics mind.Did you miss the part where Hulk shattered Onslaught's armor and Onslaught reacts with JUST AS PLANNED and the story continues and you're here complaining about "Hulk beat Onslaught" as if the battle ended at that moment?
>>154568187https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaXrMzoD-yM
>>154562064
Let's talk about some of the Onslaught tie-in stories that weren't really chapters of the core story, nobody ever seems to mention many of them. The Cable vs Hulk battle was a pretty epic all-action tie-in story, there was a later Hulk tie-in where he leads a group of Avengers in an attack on Onslaught that goes badly wrong, that was a good story too.There's a Thor issue that's like a moment of downtime for him prior to the final battle, that's also leaning into it being the last issue of the series before Heroes Reborn, and Thor knowing this could be his last battle, it was a strong character issue.Also the two Avengers tie-ins. The first was a story about Wanda, Pietro and Magneto that for once wasn't about 'family' but was just about the twins' time in the Brotherhood and how badly it traumatized them both, and then a story about half the team going up against Onslaught's most powerful henchmen while already exhausted.
>>154562580>Since X men 97 is bringing him back>>154562082>I meant was told he WASN'T allowed to use Onslaught in that show.Well which is it, is Onslaught gonna be in the show or not?
>>154570586We'll have to see by the season's end, but DeMayo did say that the season originally had ten episodes and they cut out the tenth entirely and heavily rewrote the final episodes to remove all the Onslaught stuff. These may be teases that lead nowhere or to something else.
>>154561881Cringe
>>154570668Why are they stopping the show from using him anyway? MCU called dibs so they have to postpone using him?
>>154568257"The Dark Phoenix Tapes", in "Phoenix: The Untold Story" from 1984.It's presented as reprint, so you may have skipped it.
>>154573335Well, Claremont's claiming it was in the plot, and and Byrne is saying the plot just says she eats a star, and that it's his fault that there was a whole planet of aliens too.It's just one of those things where everyone involved seems to have their own self-serving narrative of what happened, but let's not let this take over a comfy Onslaught thread
>>154562064NO ONE IS SAFE
>>154561881I hindsight about on par with the usual 90s Marvel crossover event. That is to say, not good. Premise isn’t unworkable, it’s basically Xavier’s Dark Phoenix moment, but it’s an X-men event where the heaviest consequences happen to everyone but the X-men. And Onslaught has a killer design but a weak motive and non-existent personality, though I do find the fact he was basically a mutant supremacist who got so infused in the sauce he went around to hating mutants more than anyone due to realizing they’re just as flawed as everyone else but also with egos and mental complexes over Xavier and Magneto’s refusal to accept that. So, whatever. Not a total dumpster fire, but not that good.Makes for a great background for a video game, though. Still love my MCC after all these years.
>>154573737it was also apparently in Claremont's script, but Byrne gonna Byrne
>>154563257>- sigh -Christ stop writing like a faggot
>>154561881It seems very retarded, so I've never read it.
>>154574613stop enjoying Hulk being too powerful to destroy even if Banner dies you mongler of many cocks
