Name a single way in which he wasn't the most moral person in Watchmen.
>>154596179his mask was made from a woman’s skirt which means he was wearing women’s clothing which means he was a tranny
He breaks random people's fingers man. Plus Nite Owl 1/ Hollis Mason exists. He's probably the single most stand up guy in the comic.
>>154596179He was a massive hypocrite and a pretty terrible detective. You know that you can have good, engaging characters without going "oh yes he just like me fr fr"
>>154596240>He was a massive hypocriteIn a good way, though. Despite his misanthropic rantings, he does care about the well-being of others, and does everything he can to prevent Ozymandias' plan.>and a pretty terrible detective.He figured out what was happening in the end and possibly managed to outsmart Ozymandias by leaving his journal behind.
>>154596273>N-no, the guy who committed suicide at the end of the book was actually the most moral guy, cuz he was heckin' based!
>>154596273sympathetic does not equal good or moralhe is messed up in a way you can understand and empathize with, but he is still messed up
>>154596472>murder is suicide now
>>154596650its suicide by cop
>>154596179>self-centered whore>weak betamale>psychopathic narcissist >walking plot device
>>154596240>a pretty terrible detectiveNot exactly.
>>154596273>>154596690Dan figures out it was Veidt within seconds of being in his office. He’s the one who solves the mystery. If he applied himself more he’d probably be more successful but he’s a bundle of nerves and self doubt.Rorschach is ironically the person who most recognizes and respects his talents. Part of the reason for his despair in the end is that his favorite playmate has turned his back on the game to hang with girls. For fucks sake there’s a moment in Veidts office where Rorschach briefly considers Moloch as a suspect even beyond the grave( something he admits was stupid, but still)
>>154596179He was. Even Moore said so.
>>154596210the store labeled it as unisex
>>154596472Dude was a lunatic but he was also the only character who decided to become a hero out of genuine compassion for his fellow man, and despite how much he talked about being merciless and refusing to compromise we see him show mercy to various criminals throughout the story. The book literally opens with him fantasizing about all of new york dying in an apocalypse but when it actually happens he's the only one who ultimately can't accept the loss of life and refuses to go along with Adrian's plan to keep quiet.Calling Rorsharch a moral person is a misleading. Again, he was a genuinely unstable violent lunatic who was a hypocrite even under his own stated moral code, which was itself largely just cope anyway. But he was far more compassionate than he seemed or believed himself to be.
>>154596210Possibly homosexual? Must investigate further.
>>154596771As opposed to the aiding and abetting lunatics around him?
>>154596729>Dan figures out it was Veidt within seconds of being in his office.I mean he figures it out by idly snooping in Veidt's computer and guessing his password (which he had no real reason to do, they were there to talk to him not to hack his PC). That's not exactly stunning detective work, he basically stumbles on the answer by pure chance. It's true Rorsharch probably wouldn't have figured it out on his own, but not because he wouldn't think to hack Veidt's computer but because he probably wasn't well read enough to guess what his password would be. Plus Rorsharch is the one who put in the legwork to figure out everything about pyramid industries which they used to connect Adrian to the crime, and he was also the only reason Dan was in that room in the first place. Dan was necessary to provide the final piece but Rorscharch was the driving force behind the whole rest of the investigation,
>>154596179Hollis was more moral
Do we really need this thread every week when there are hundreds of other comics to talk about.
>>154596927So go talk about them. Well? What are you waiting for? Do it.
>>154596878Not just that, when he’s referencing info in the NY harbor they hide out in, Dan points out that it’s probably not specifically a cape killer they’re after but someone tied to a corporation. Rorschach takes this as them needing to pursue lowlifes in bars again where Dan realizes there’s probably something bigger going on. they do end up getting a lead from this, but Rorschach remains convinced it’s a cape killer thanks to Hollis being murdered. No idea of a greater plot. Dan was the one who suggested going to Veidt. And they thought they were going to give him more evidence to help them, not finger him. Rorschach never made a connection with Veidt being guilty. His last journal entry says that Dan made the connection. He mails that before Antarctica, and the squid plot.A lot of people skim read watchmen so they miss out on stuff like that.
>>154596795Everyone in Watchmen is some kind of fucked in the head. The closest thing to a central theme the story has is examining the kind of people that would decide to put on a mask and fight crime in a world like ours instead of in the world of superhero stories. And it makes a point to spell out that a normal, well-adjusted person is not the kind of person to dress up in colorful costumes and go beat up criminals.Rorscarch is just one of the worst, and maybe not even THE worst depending on how you view Veidt.
>>154596967Veidt is absolutely the worst. You could say that each of the characters was led astray by his or her power, but Veidt still killed millions of people and gloated about it.
>>154596878>>154596966Dan here suggesting they go to Adrian as they have more info
>>154596878>>154597004Most damning, seconds ago the man Rorschach shakes up for info tells him that all the freight handlers working for Pyramid deliveries or connected to them in some way were killed.Rorschach doesn’t pick up on this detail and Dan is too distracted by a top knot mentioning Hollis dying so this is never bought up. Rorschach doesn’t seem to mention couriers being killed, just brings up Pyramid while still pushing his cape killer theory.Dan is the one who notices the pyramid and makes the connection while Rorschach rambles in the background.
>>154596179The message of Watchmen is clear but nobody wants to admit it.
>>154596966Show, not tell: Dan sees the pyramid and goes silent. He’s not just poking around the computer for no reason, he just realizes in this moment that the company is probably connected to Veidt. An obvious breadcrumb trail. Rorschach’s investigation does help, but its flawed and he overlooks crucial info. That said I won’t fault him entirely because he had to keep Dan from going over the edge at the bar. Which is touching in a way, Rorschach has a deep opposition to other people having to be him. Be it the landlady’s bastard kids or Dan after he wanted to wipe out the whole neighborhood after Hollis died.
>>154596966Fair enough, I had forgotten that it was Dan's idea to focus on corporations and to go see Veidt. I still maintain that the solve was a group effort, and largely came down to them getting a lucky break. Rorshach suspects there is a conspiracy (which required him to discover that Blake even was the Comedian in the first place) and tries to track it down, he finds and interrogates Moloch, connects Blake to a plot against Jon (which requires realizing that what what happened to Jon *was* a plot and not a coincidence) and then gets framed for Moloch's murder, confirming that he really is on to something. Dan comes in, puts together the information Rorschach has gathered with some digging of his own, and channels Rorschach's crazy towards more productive avenues which does put them on the right path, but in the end it still comes down to Dan randomly guessing the password on the computer of a man that neither of them had any reason to suspect. If Dan doesn't suggest going to see Adrian or doesn't decide to try and get into his computer the two don't get any further than "The Comedian was killed by a conspiracy to get rid of Jon involving some shady R&D companies" before dying with the rest of Manhattan when the squid shows up. Which is closer than Rorschach's mask killer theory but still pretty far from the whole truth. Ultimately they got lucky.
>THERE IS ONLY GOOD AND EVIL>unless the comedian did something bad, then it was a moral lapse
>>154597159Why was the password Ramses and not Alexander?
>>154597280Real question is why was the password anything so easily guessed?
>>154596179His mask is an image of my father beating me up
>>154597159>PASSWORD INCOMPLETEWho programs a computer to do that?
>>154597159Ok I will admit I never caught Dan making that connection with the pyramid before. I figured he just decided to poke around on the computer on the long shot that it might have something useful on it, since Adrian wasn't there and they needed information.
>>154597329it was the 80s, people genuinely didnt know about computer safety at the timeit was just assumed that only a computerist would know how to work a computerpeople were more worried that you would be locked out of your own computer than you were of people breaking into yours
>>154596210He’s got you there, OP.
>>154596240The thing is, people are so desperate for right-wing representation that they’ll take anything that’s even remotely sympathetic to their viewpoint. And I don’t blame them for this because the idea that every superhero would be left-wing is retarded.
>>154597598there is irony in conservatives being so desperate for representation in comics when they despise the nominal idea of representation in the first place
>>154597612Perhaps, but I think part of that is what representation is often a euphemism for.
>>154597153I was bored and decided to actually read this full article and its just a new hypocrisy or frustrating thing to hear every paragraph. Its actually LESS rage inducing when you take it out of context. I thought maybe it was just a ragebait headline or something.
>>154597298Should've been luvs2cum6969
>>154596179Friendly reminder that the subtext implies he's closeted. >The mask/"face" he's constantly wearing was originally a dress.>There's a point where Veidt is discussing an upcoming commercial campaign regarding lingerie where he's insisting that the model should look vaguely manly in order to appeal to gay customers.>You can see Rorschach changing himself in an alley in front of a poster of the aforementioned model dressing herself. >Shortly after we see him attacking a mugger with some stockings.Those details put his relationship with Daniel under a different perspective...
>>154597298Long held idea is that he made it obvious to get caught. He was expecting some visitors. He watches Dan and Rorschach’s approach and hopes for their safe travel so he can have his audience.
>>154597845that doesnt really hold up, since he didnt even want his closest aides to live even when they were the ones most devoted to himand it opens up the possibility that someone other than nite owl would find out about it
>>154597793 The gay Rorschach theory is something I think overblown, he has a very stunted view of relationships and still approaches it like a child—having to constantly fight and resorting to violence ASAP to assert dominance. I do see it as some acknowledgment of his mixed up or stunted sexuality, but just being a closet case, I don’t see. Nite Owl is his favorite play partner so he becomes the object of many of Rorschach’s more loving feelings- not in a romantic or sexual way, but in that he’s basically still a boy in the street playing superhero and Dan is the only other person willing to play with him. When you’re a lonely child, having one friend means the world. When he’s just Dan, he almost ends up in a maternal role letting Rorschach take shelter and food from him. He has no healthy outlet to really quantify his other emotions, he’s rejected romantic love by associating it with prostitution ( because that’s what he saw as a child- prostitution masked as “ love”), he neglects personal relationships outside of the mask because he was an outsider as a kid and had a perpetual guard up. Rorschach and playing hero is the one time he has people around him willing to “play” with him. Dan is his safest connection that he holds onto, very literally at one point.Seeing him sleep with Laurie and giving up the fight broke him. I think people don’t give that enough credit to why he committed suicide by Manhattan, or just treat it as him being grossed or disgusted by them choosing sex over fighting. It can be that too, but Dan choosing to stop “playing” means Rorschach’s playtime is over too
>>154597612>conservatives being so desperate for representation inSuperheroes are an inherently conservative concept. They are vigilantes who use their strength to enforce their own idea of right and wrong. Even Captain America fights the US government all the time.
>>154597856Killing his workers and all the people involved was more about burying the evidence, even if they were loyal to him. He says as much that none of them have any way of pinning the blame on him if they try. Sure his workers would likely not talk, but there was a chance and he wasn’t taking it. Presumably if he was planning on visitors he had his office monitored and was likely planning for something had someone he not wanted poking around found out.
You can argue all you wants about Rorschach but I hope we all agree that the Watchmen HBO series sucks ass?Sister Night was a terrible character, she defend and enjoy the communist racial dystopia without questioning anything. It's like making the Comedian the main character.
>>154597920>Superheroes are an inherently conservative conceptthey were invented as mass media for children and can easily be read as bipartisanhaving to step in to fight criminals to protect the weak who were unable to be protected by the institution can easily fit into either conservative or liberal in a pre-reagan world
>>154598048i remember liking a couple elements. that things look less flashy than the Snyder take on it, the mirror mask guy, and some of the bits with jeremy irons. but other than that it was fucking horrible. it tried to be so woke it was racist
>>154597598>remotely sympathetic>literally based on ayn rand ideals
>>154596179He kills people’
>>154596179He's highly satanic because he's an atheist
>>154598626Stfu
>>154598062>having to step in to fight criminals to protect the weak who were unable to be protected by the institution can easily fit into either conservative or liberal in a pre-reagan worldStrength is an inherently conservative concept.
>>154598896strength is a value-neutral concept that is as old as humanity itselfwhat people should and shouldnt do with their power is usually the arguing point in politics20th century liberalism would hold that its your duty to society to wield that power to defend its weakest membersconservatist views on power are generally more varied and can range from basically the same thing as liberals to "what you do with your power is entirely your business"
>>154598931>20th century liberalism would hold that its your duty to society to wield that power to defend its weakest membersThat's why they want to defund the police and flood Europe and America with rapists and murderers. Leftists are so emasculated they won't even call 9-1-1 when they witness a crime anymore.
>>154597153Thats why you cant take Alan Moore for real and get the feeling he writes and do the right but doesnt understand why it is a success.But in reality he is just that kind of guy who tries to argue why the thing he wrote in the past is different and he always meant it that way. Like those people who say something dumb or do something dumb, than say it was just a joke or satirical.
>>154596179He downplayed a rape
>>154598104Ayn Rand fled the soviet union, the most brutal authoritarian regime in history built by leftistsIf you can't see why her ideals combat that then you have no empathy
>>154596179He was fucking mental, off the rails . He wasn't moral he was deranged. It's not an argument of him being good or bad he was too cuckoo to be doing anything he was doing
>>154596685>weakTbh he put a good fight even in the comics. He never went down unless he was swarmed by a lot of people. Despite being a manlet he fucked a lot of people up.>>154597612I think people take more issue when authors turn comics into revenge fantasies and strawmen against them
>>154598955
>>154599248You gotta check his thoughts from around the time he wrote it. He's been increasingly soured over it, mainly because DC jewed him.
>>154596179he isn't the guy that shot a woman pregnant with his own kid
>>154600225He was describing the other characters in the comic, anon. "Weak beta male" is Night owl.
>>154596273Dan solves the mystery, not Rorsharch. And in no possible universe does Rosharch's journal "get" Veidt when he dropped it off before going to Anarctica. He vaguely attaches Veidt to Blake's murder, Manhattan's exile, and his own imprisonment (and Rorsharch had done plenty to deserve imprisonment on his own). People hated the super heroes so they won't give a shit
>>154596927Yes, the guys starting it need to reemphasize that the chud coded protagonist is actually good and right
>>154601618In no possible universe does Veidt's plot work to begin with. People would be tricked for maybe a month and then things would be worse than when he started.
>>154600636What do you mean? He stayed true to his ideas when he wrote it or that he changed his opinion on Rorschach because of DC?
>>154601986His good thoughts and love for this comic have progressively waned after he finished it, after getting fucked multiple times by the comic's owner, seeing his favorite medium flounder possibly by his hand, and meeting a bunch of rabid fans.
