Forcing him to be the big bad end all be all villain of DC completely ruined him and by extension ruined The New Gods
>>154645749Why was Darkseid turned into the biggest bad anywayWho's decision was it and when
>>154645783Because Marvel was building up Thanos so Geoff Johns wrote New 52 Justice League around Darkseid since they look kinda similar
>>154645783Levitz with the Great Darkness Saga. And in his defense, GDS Darkseid was absolutely bonkers then.
>>154645749Actually giving Darkseid the equation or making him some nth powerful being who doesn’t get into fistfights with Superman and Orion seems to be taking him at his word.
>>154645790Wrong
>>154645804That sure was a far cry from LET'S HAVE A TOURNAMENT ARC BRO!
>>154645815I saw someone years ago speculate that Kirby's original intention was that if Darkseid actually found the anti life equation, it would effect him and render him basically braindead before he could do anything with itNo idea if there's any truth to it but I love the idea. The DCAU kinda ends like this
>>154645822What prompted this from ‘Fascist dictator who has a 50/50 chance when punching Superman?’
>>154645883I fear the day when modern writers remember that Darkseid was meant to be an allegory for fascism
>>154645883Superman wasn't around.
>>154645749Kirby likely wouldn't have a problem with Darkseid being the embodiment of evil in the DCU since he considered Darkseid to represent his view of the greatest evil: The loss of freedom.
>>154645876Isn't Kirby's original depiction of Darkseid much less satanic than has become fashionable? A more flawed and foolish character?
>>154645790>Because Marvel was building up Thanos so Geoff Johns wrote New 52 Justice League around Darkseid since they look kinda similarit goes back much farther than that, fool
>>154645976https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmzBwWIGSqU
People saw Darkseid in GDS and thought he was cool.Then Morrison used him in JLA and Seven Soldiers and Final Crisis and made him popular enough for Johns to cream his pants and shove him into every fucking event for a decade. And then Snyder saw the sales figures for Johns' mid-tier capeshit and doubled down. And now we're almost 2 decades in to Darkseid on Darkseid on Darkseid with even more Darkseid.
>>154645876Kirby said something to the extent that Darkseid would be unable to use the anti-life equation if he ever got ahold of it.
>>154645957>Kirby likely wouldn't have a problem with Darkseid being the embodiment of evil in the DCU since he considered Darkseid to represent his view of the greatest evil: Richard Nixon.FIFY
>>154645996People forget that when Morrison did his whole DARKSEID IS thing it was set up as the answer to a question. He was being hyped up. WHO IS YOUR MASTER! WHO IS YOUR GOD!
>>154645996Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor were the two Biggest Bads in DC for a long while.
>>154645976Kirby's take on Darkseid is a cross between pulp supervillains, fairy tale monsters, Shakespeare antagonists, the archetypal Sky Father (YHWH as Demiurge), and the psychology of WW2 tyrants. Very petty. There's an undercurrent of tragedy, akin to the way that Satan is a tragic monster.There have been many rumors floating around about what Kirby's New Gods' original climax was supposed to be like:>Darkseid gets the Anti-Life equation only to be turned to stone and he loses>Darkseid abandons Kalibak and Orion to their deaths to seize the Equation, only to realize that Anti-Life is one and the same as the Life Equation: what truly controls minds is self-sacrifice and thinking of the needs of others before your own. Darkseid saves his sons and sacrifices himself in the process, only to become part of the Source Wall. He laughs triumphantly. Orion and Kalibak rule as benevolent kings.>Ragnarok occurs once more and the Fourth World is destroyed, making way for the Fifth World.
>>154646112>OrionIt took me a good while to realize that he is based on Cu Chulainn
>>154646112>the psychology of WW2 tyrantsYeah, no
>>154646139Orion's a very interesting character.>Cu Chulainn + Orion + Samson + Thor + Achilles>Darkseid is Satan/YHWH as a Demiurge, making Orion both Satanael and Christ>he's a "mooncalf" similar to Kalibak (his brother's namesake Caliban)
>>154645976He was basically Skeletor です
>>154646004Would you be able to source that? Sounds interesting
>>154646200Darkseid also has Balor, of fiery gaze, in his mix; because of this he and Orion/"Cu Chulainn who is Lugh" are destined to kill each other.
>>154646112Are these rumors why he turns to stone at the end of jlu
>>154645749I remain disappointed that with the exception of the occasional out of continuity story, many writers fail to grasp the complexity of Darkseid's character. He is indeed an evil cosmic tyrant, but he has a lot in common with his counterpart across the aisle (Thanos). Petty, cowardly, out of touch, stupid and self-destructive (like how Tolkien defined evil), and quite lonely. The humanizing aspects that Kirby wrote a lot of Marvel and DC antagonists with have constantly been ignored, downplayed, or dismissed altogether in favor of whitewashing villains or sanding them down to be generically evil instead or being rooted in something real.It's one of the reasons I dislike Hickman's glazing of Doom or "Magneto was right". Villains should be monsters...but monsters are also people, and monsters can be so very immature. Born too big, too strong, too heavy. Frail, sobbing children crying out for an end to their suffering.
This is why I like Mongul better. He's big. He's evil. He's just a dick.
>>154646317Nobody cares
>>154646317A lot of his heavier complexity comes for his relationship with Orion. So it's hard to explore that when Orion gets sidelined.
>>154646264https://screenrant.com/darkseid-anti-life-equation-meaning-jack-kirby-fourth-world/>The plan Jack had for the Anti-Life Equation was that it didn't exist, at least not in the form Darkseid believed. Darkseid was chasing something he could never have. Whereas Darkseid perceived it as a weapon, it was a spiritual goodness that exists in every religion and every people... And it's something which, if Darkseid got his hands on it, he'd have a very powerful concept in his hands, but nothing he could ever use for conquest. I envisioned, or maybe Jack told me this, a scene with Darkseid finally realizing what the Anti-Life Equation is and screaming, 'I can't use this! This is of no use to me!' He'd killed hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and spent billions of dollars to get his hands on the ultimate weapon, and he discovered the ultimate weapon was, 'Thou shalt not conquer.'supposedly Evanier said this. it's neat but not really consistent with Billion-Dollar Bates etc.
>>154646336Apokolips doesn’t use dollars
>>154646320Mongul's funny to me.>Darkseid: Evil Dad (who deep down is sad)>Thanos: Incel Chud (who is a child not embraced by the village, as the proverb goes)>Mongul: nah he's just pure evil: ZERO REDEEMING QUALITIES WHATSOEVER
>>154646025I mean, Morrison also uses "Darksied Is" in final Crisis as sort of an expression of his Totality. The more Ive read of Kirby, though, the more I don't really like Morrison's Final Crisis version of Darksied. He's great in Rock of Ages, though.
>>154646404>I mean, Morrison also uses "Darksied Is" in final Crisis as sort of an expression of his Totality.Yeah but that was well after things got out of control.
>>154646380>Darkseid: I want to bend the universe to my will!>Thanos: I want to kill the universe so this hot chick will notice me!>Mongul: I want to build a fucking death star so I can host gladiatorial games!Mongul is a space Chad.
>>154646416I agree, I'm just saying I don't think Morrison forgot, I think it was implicit in his writing even then. I certainly read it with similar gravity back in 2003 when my buddy first loaned me Rock of Ages.
>>154646404Morrison's take on Kirby is fine, it just shouldn't be the primary source for adaptations or future runs of the character. Everyone also neglects the fact that Darkseid is literally dying in Final Crisis. It kinda makes sense, it's like seeing your grandpa crash out after a cancer diagnosis and he's losing his marbles while trying to be the ultimate control freak and concoct some freaky scheme to take over the finances or something.>>154646431Darkseid and Thanos: I want to be loved!Mongul: I FUCKING LOVE RAPE AND MURDER AND THEFT
You know what I like about Mongul? He looks like he enjoys ruling. Darkseid has Apokolips in his iron grip. Powerful warriors and gods bow to him. He his a god to his planet. And he looks miserable. Meanwhile Mongul's just screwing around like he's Space Caligula all HAH HAH WAR PLANET GO WEEEEEEE!
>>154646642Thanos and Darkseid are both lonely creatures. Thanos has a massive ego born of insecurity while Darkseid's got a Grinch-sized heart. Both have been rejected and traumatized and neglected to the point they'd rather impose their wills and minds over others than risk being vulnerable and self-less.Mongul doesn't give a shit about other people AND he's got a huge ego born out of absurd self-confidence. If he wasn't such a shithead, he'd probably be like an amoral Silver Age Superman or a space Conan
>>154646020>NixonOne of his inspirations, yes, but also every dictator he knew about. So yeah, the loss of freedom was the greatest evil in Kirby's eyes.
>>154646681He really had it in for G Gordon Liddy
>>154646317>Born too big, too strong, too heavy.Hello Ishiro Honda.
>>154645783Super Powers
>>154646705And rightly so. Liddy works better as one of Darkseid's lackeys, though--like Granny Goodness or Steppenwolf.
>>154646317>>154646732It's like a giant hand, powerful enough to crush steel, but unable to hold a small porcelain doll and as it crumbles in his hands he can only shed tears of sorrow at the cruel fragility of life... what were we talking about again?
>>154646742>Liddy works better as one of Darkseid's lackeys, though--like Granny Goodness or Steppenwolf.Or, you know, G(Lorrious) Gordon Godfrey
>>154646031Not really. Darkseid took a backseat in the 90s and 00s. There's a big gap between Cosmic Odyssey and Rock of Ages where Darkseid only shows up in the New Gods/Fourth World books... and maybe Wonder Woman, under Byrne, I think? By the early 00s he was being used as a gag character in Young Justice. It really was Morrison's rework in Seven Soldiers and Final Crisis that made him into the modern day end of all things big bad.
>>154646746DARKSEID IS...alone.Call me naive or a sap...but I think the kindest ending to Darkseid's character would be him and Orion reconciling. Like the rumored ending to New Gods that Kirby allegedly scrapped for being too similar to Return of the Jedi's ending.
>>154646794It's kind of funny Kirby didn't want to rip off Star Wars when I'm pretty confident Lucas took more than a bit from Kirby. I'm pretty confident I've seen the phrase "May the SOURCE be with you" tossed around a few times.
>>154646808It's been all but confirmed that Lucas took heavy inspiration from Kirby:>Lucas co-owned a comic book store and was a massive fan of DC and Marvel, to the point that a few shots in the OT are pulled directly from comic book panels>Darth Vader was inspired by Doctor Doom https://comicbookmovie.com/other/kirby-lucas-and-campbell-a27649>"I located my book, the dinner included Roy Thomas, Ed Summer (owner of Supersnipe Comic Emporium in Manhattan) and George Lucas. At this dinner George Lucas was relaying his story for Star Wars in which Roy Thomas noticed it sounded a lot like Jack Kirby’s New Gods. In the book, it starts on the first paragraph (middle of the page) on page 199 and continues to page 200. What I took away from this part of the book was that (in my opinion) George Lucas is hugely indebted to Jack Kirby for Star Wars. To me, there are simply too many parallels at the core of the Star Wars story."What proves this to me is that the original ending to ROTJ was Luke killing Vader, taking control of the Empire, and declaring himself the new Vader, with the following trilogy centering on Luke's long-lost sister (not Leia) leading a resistance against him and ultimately redeeming him.Sounds a lot like Orion and his whole "I will replace my father" thing, no?
>>154646899>Lucas almost fucked up Luke as badly as Disney Wars didThank God the OT had just enough cooks in the kitchen to save us from that scenario.
>>154646943It was actually Lucas who was responsible for the ending we got in the end. Lawrence Kasdan was the one gung-ho for a sad ending, but Lucas was inspired to give audiences a happy ending when he looked up and realized that the state of the world was pretty miserable, so he figured that the story should end on an inspiring and hopeful note.I also believe that the influence of the Wizard of Oz was a contributing factor to Lucas changing the ending. Both the book and the movie are pretty strong influences on the OT but just like New Gods, the average fan is unaware of Lucas' core influences and how they impacted the films. Everyone talks about Kurasawa or Flash Gordon or Dune but hardly enough about Lensmen, Barsoom, or Lucas' relationship with Buddhism and New Age faiths.
>>154646975I can't believe that Dark Empire probably would have been a better sequel trilogy.
>>154645749I feel the exact urn is the moment he went from merely being a God of fascism and tyranny to becoming this nebulous concept of "evil". Kirby's Darkseid is a dictator that paints himself as this all-encompassing, larger than life being, the Darkseid we have now IS that.
Darkseid is based because he wants to turn all of existence into a massive torture chamber for his amusement, and that's what's supposed to happen.
>>154645749Instead of Lex Luthor, Eisenberg should have played Glorious Godfrey.
Orion... forgotten
>>154645749>>154646317I'm not really surprised that Femseid exists as a thing. Darkseid's character has a fair chunk of "feminine" traits and aspects:>cowardly, hides behind others>runs from direct confrontation >blasts magic projectiles>mind control, dominating psyches>huge ego (not to say that Pride isn't a male quality, but it's very exaggerated with female villains) and a cult of personality>Androgynous Saturn as the Devouring Mother-Father archetype>very possessive, very lonely, extremely petty>schemer, cares a lot about appearances>very hypocriticalLike if you think about it, Orion's relationship with Darkseid is almost like an Asian kid's dynamic with their Tiger Mom.
>>154647064Get help.
>>154646793gotta give it to morrison; he def understood that darkseid's M.O. was letting others do the dirty workrly wish he also 'membered the fact darkseid is a weak petty b-
>>154645876I'd like it if it's meant that only if you're able to understand the equation does it kill you. Everyone in the universe is safe from it besides the very people that'd try to abuse its power.
>>154646758I can’t believe I forgot Glorious Godfrey was G. Gordon Godfrey in Legends. Still, I think Steppenwolf reminds me more of the actual Liddy. I’m surprised they didn’t make Godfrey a Jim Baker expy in the mid-eighties.
>>154645749Not at all. He's just used poorly.
>>154645749Kirby himself was ok with it though. When some bitch became head of DC she wanted a superman villain that could actually fight him. She wanted to bring back the New Gods because they had nothing better creativity wise. Kirby was still alive at this point. He was excited for superman to fight Darkseid. So I think its fine.
>>154646020You people are so braindead...
>>154645749Agreed. Everything coming down to space Hitler destroyed the DC universe. The whole concept of the anti-life equation is stupid. Pseudo-intellectual babble that helps reinforce western comics as primarily children's media.Lex Luthor is infinitively more interesting as Superman's ultimate opponent because unlike Darkseid (who is super evil but also super wrong), Lex Luthor can make a compelling case for his own actions even if he is ultimately wrong about Superman. It comes across as a tragic misunderstanding and the result of Lex's own flaws and projections, rather than Darkseid just shouting slogans and aura farming because he is given license by his powers to do so.
>>154647897Kirby was many things but he was a workman above it all. He played the game and wanted to get paid.
>>154647929>Lex Luthor is infinitively more interesting as Superman's ultimate opponentBut not for the entire Justice League.
>>154647937>we need an Avengers level threat to justify the AvengersThis is the other problem with DC and western comics in general. They want to do crossovers and as a result have horrible mismatches both in power scaling and genre. Why should Constantine or Green Arrow or even Batman be involved in stopping Darksied when ultimately it comes down to just Superman fighting him while everyone else offers pity support - a batarang or two - or even worse jobs or watches.
>>154647963Because Superman shouldn't just be punching everyone into submission, it's why a lot of people don't like him and say he's too strong.
>>154647963Versus a manga where we keep all those characters anyways and give them nothing but filler fights we pretend are important before the MC does everything anyways.
>>154647999I actually agree and almost compared the whole situation to DBZ where characters from past arcs just stand around giving commentary. It isn't quite that bad, but it is the same problem.If you want to give the Justice League something to do, it should be a global problem that requires them to be in multiple places at once or use each of their unique skills. But Darksied is only threatened by Superman. Batman is useless against him, with or without Superman. And the problem here isn't Batman, it is that Darkseid is a shit villain.
>>154647999Yeah that's much better. Imagine wanting to see action in an action series though, shocker, huh?
>>154648026Batman kills him on final crisis...
>>154645749Forever People is oft overlooked as part of Kirby's Fourth World but it had some of the best Darkseid material.
>>154646443that too; and with the decision t'make darkseid the DC equivalent to thanos in the new 52; darkseid pretty much has both power and bragging rights at his arsenal(+ i hate to admit it, but his petty fanfic's are rly good despite it being obvious he rly hates some of these characters)
>>154647012Kys, subhuman
>>154645749Dc hired marvel drones after the Bronze Age as writers and they only cared about Kirby stuff
The Force is based on eastern martial arts concepts
I always felt like the New Gods suit Wonder Woman better than Superman
>>154646336This just feeds my schizo "Anti-Life Equation is the Lasso of Truth" theory all the more.
>>154645749I'm not a DCfag and I've never read a single comic about Darkseid. My understanding of the character is that in a way he is the main character of the DC universe. He is alone. But because he has the most cosmic awareness and comprehension in his universe. To him nobody else is as real and as sentient. Darkseid is consciously trying (and to a point has managed) to ascend to a higher state of being by becoming one with a fundamental force of the universe. Control. Order. He seeks to become it so that wherever is is, so does he. And over time he will become the universe and ascend to an entirely new concept of existence. To Darkseid the world around him exists to facilitate his ascension. Like a sort of egg that a fetus absorbs as it evolves into the chick that will hatch.Thanos on the other hand is too human. He may have power and higher knowledge but he doesn't really ascend. He keeps his regular person baggage no matter how cosmically powerful he becomes. Basically Thanos is an idiot with a gun while Darkseid seeks to become gunhood itself and he has already turned part machine.
>>154645749He almost has to be by default. By this I don't mean this physical threat to the DC heroes but rather as a master plotter, he should be behind every major threat in the DC Universe. He's almost what Dr Doom was in his early days before they made him to be tragic and noble villain. Before he was just your typical Saturday morning cartoon villain, a villain behind every plot point just to undermine the hero. Doom and Darkseid can be your average street gangster (which Kirby always refers to and according to Eisner also would come to fist fights with) he can also be a theme park owner exploiting his costumers or the abusive and neglected father to your grand cosmic villain. Lex Luthor for Superman fills this role. >>154646681Some interview in what I poorly remember as the Jack Kirby Collector, had the writer's younger self ask Kirby about Darkseid and he says Kirby went on a rant about Patton but much to the dismay of the kid seeing Patton as a hero, Kirby pivoted and talked about Hitler and Nixon. Maybe Patton's pride is what Kirby was drawing from for some aspects of Darkseid.>>154647002Patton seemed larger than life. Kirby was saying Patton would pretend to care about his troops but that was more for appearance and to hype up his self worth. But I do think, Darkseid is every trope humanity has had for the antagonist, for the evil hiding in the shadows the plot our downfall in this world. The fictional version of Illuminati. Kirby felt control and the loss of freewill was paramount to the evil he saw against these faceless organizations outside his control that profiting from his work and creative mind. Even the video posted about Kirby predicting the future was more of Kirby probably hinting at Martin Goodman, Jack Schiff, Carmine Infantino and Mort Weisinger.>>154645995What I don't get is this new take on Darkseid being made of rock. When did this happen? I must have missed this detail in the original Kirby run.
>>154650259His skin is craggly and grey.
>>154648116I know I shouldn't expect better out of you but still.
>>154650312Kys, soifaggot
>>154645749Yes.
>>154645902They probably do, but they like him better as Silver Age Lex Luthor IN SPACE
>>154650292This is what I thought but some later writers took it to be Darkseid being made of stone or like Byrne saying he got turn into stone. Probably for some allegorical reason. Also anyone known what Kirby was trying to do with Infinity Man? He got turned to be Darkseid's brother Uxas and Drax. Seems retarded in hindsight.
>>154648026Darkseid has jobbed to Batman a few times because Batman logic is fucking psychotic thoughever
>>154649853Darkseid's lust for Wonder Woman from the Superfriends is already canon. Let's not get even weirder with it.
>>154650127>'m not a DCfag and I've never read a single comic about DarkseidCould have just stopped right there.
>>154650259>Maybe Patton's pride is what Kirby was drawing from for some aspects of Darkseid.There's a scene in The Forever People where Darkseid stands the main cast in a line and dresses them down like Drill Sergeant. That might be inspired from Patton.
>>154650437When has he jobbed to Batman? The two instances I remember of him fighting Batman are both Morrison, first in Rock of Ages, where he's barely a distraction, and second in Final Crisis, where it's supposed to be a big symbolic thing and kind of a phyrric victory, because you have the ultimate "no guns" paragon using a gun to kill thereby sort of proving Darkseid's might-is-right philosophy. And Batman still "dies" from the encounter, anyway.But I'm not super well read especially on more current DC, when has Batman gone up against Darkseid other than that?
You can just read up to the Hunger Dogs and call it a day. But even when Kirby was writing for DC, Darkseid was being built up as a threat to Earth.
>>154645876People should actually read Kirby's comics before spouting off ignorant takes. The anti-life equation is simply mind control. A guy on Earth had it. It wouldn't break Darkseid's mind.
What would it be like to have Darkseid as a coworker?
>>154650624>A guy on Earth had it.The sumo dude also had it.
>>154650695Yeah, it seems like anyone who claims Kirby never explained the anti-life explanation only ever read New Gods and Mr. Miracle at most and completely skipped Forever People.
>>154645749I basically blame the DCAU for making him the big bad cliche toxic dictator that Superman must be glazed on for basically defeating him and turning him into a generic divine evil must lose to holy good stereotype.
>>154650731Was Kirby lazy in his later years?
>>154650525Could be. Most of the Communist and Fascist dictators always used the pageantry of the military to pull rank for authoritarian propaganda purposes. So that mock inspection could be just that. Also the military is very authority and rank driven in listening to orders with minimal outside lateral thoughts to oppose a high ranking order. There is a Kirby story of when Patton pulled up so all the troops chilling and Patton started hounding orders for no reason, or at least that is how Kirby explained the story. Interesting enough this scene takes place in the Billion Dollar Bates issue which is issue 8 in this same issue after the mock inspection Darkseid ays there is in greatness in killing the youth. The youth is something also important to Highfather. Maybe this concern with the youth is why Darkseid seems to holdback against killing Orion. Sure his evil repulsive self creeps up every now and then to override his better nature as a father since Darkseid would rather live to see another day. He may have to consume the youth as Chronos and Saturn did but even Darkseid in Kirby's run had his limits even calling Desaad's methods and pleasure in torture sicking.>>154650695>>154650731Bates and Sumo.
>>154650624Are you telling this cosmic entity beyond human comprehension is just looking for god gas?
>>154646642Too bad he jobbed to heroes like Kid Flash and Titans.
>>154650788Darkseid was a Superman villain from the start, it's just that the writers of the time didn't care to have them interact on more than a handful of occasions >>154650592
>>154645749Darkseid is supposed to be the type of villain that makes Lex look like a edgy ass pussy going through a phase. But instead he's just a beat up fodder for flying bricks to express how strong they are despite Darkseid is technically a supernatural deity and can explode them with his mind.
>>154650731Yes, I think it is because it is the second black sheep of the series.>only ever read New Gods and Mr. Miracle Considering they keep portraying Scott and Orion as being the same age, I think they didn't reading anything at all.
>>154650893First part is true, but Kirby's Darkseid was a bit of a paper tiger. He was a schemer and a coward who avoided direct confrontations whenever he could.
>>154650891>Darkseid was a Superman villain from the startIn Kirby run, Superman had a more meaningful encounter with High Father than Darkseid.Supers and Darkseid barely meet.
>Superfriends made him a '87 Shredder-tier villain
>>154650916He operated behind the scenes but he was still a villain.
>>154650312Riiiight. I pity you
>>154647929> Lex Luthor is infinitively more interesting as Superman's ultimate opponent Disagree because Lex at the end of the day can't push Superman.to his limits and sanity, unlike Darkseid, Mongul, Brainiac and sometimes Lobo. Lex is like a work in progress therapy project for Clark and has easily outperformed him to show the distinction of Lex's ability to go the distance when compared to Superman, it is barely enough since Clark can win as the better man with him allowing Lex to tardquit and act out his evil schemes to Superman. He'll this is what Dr. Eggman did to Lex and he's just like Lex but more unhinged and childish.
>>154650812>Maybe this concern with the youth is why Darkseid seems to holdback against killing Orion.In Kirby works, he doesn't act directly against his own blood.Manipulated Izaya into killing his uncle, let the obviously disloyal Kalibak do as he pleased, had desaad kill Hegra and killed Desaad when Desaad interfered with Orion and Kalibak's duel to death.
>>154645790Stop spreading misinformation
>>154650465You think all the people who like Batman have ever read his comics?
>>154651017Kirby's original pitch was the dynamic between Darkseid and Orion https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jESPibZBOsothen again Kirby would revision his characters as time went by, along with actual of history of the events that went down in the creation of characters. Not saying Stan or Jack tried to steal credit but rather their vision of their characters ended up being much different than their original intent as Dr Doom brings up the most interpretations over his character and that scar.Darkseid appears more times in the Forever People than in the New Gods. I think this ties with the motif of control of the older order with the younger generation as Kirby was influenced by the Hippie counterculture of California. Yes Nixon bumped heads with them but it's interesting to see Nixon's history actually fighting with the Deep State since it was the Army that created the Hippie movement to control the Communist subversion and outside control in the antiwar movement openly using mind altering drugs to control the minds of the youth.
>>154645749He seems kind of small to be the biggest of all the villains. He's the leader guy of some evil planet, and that's really about it. I would expect something more grander scale like a gigantic cosmic god or eldrich horror that wanders around the universe fucking things up. I thought something like Sun Eaters, Imperiex, Antimonitor, Lords of Chaos, Nekron, Starbreaker, something that threatens the universe. Darkseid comes off as around the same scale as Nekron, Despero, or Mongul when he is portrayed as the Warzoons leader. Thanos is only the biggest bad in Marvel when he finds some godly powerful artifact. Outside of that he is just another cosmic troublemaker, one of many.>>154645783>>154645790Naah, Darkseid was being pushed as the top of the villain pyramid during all the Secret Society stuff back in the late 70s. That was the time they kept picking up fairly powerful villains the story reminded readers that Darkseid was more powerful than them and always in charge.
>>154651498Lore wise, Forever People is kind of the most important of the 4th world books; it explains a lot of what is happening behind the scenes, and introduced a lot of important concepts.
>>154650928He also really really wanted to fuck Wonder Woman in that one
>>154651617>Thanos is only the biggest bad in Marvel when he finds some godly powerful artifact. Outside of that he is just another cosmic troublemaker, one of many.That's how it was when Marvel was good but Endgame made three billion dollars so everything revolves around him
>>154651498>Hippie countercultureOver time I began to think of this as being reductive.Since they have a lot more going for them.Like Big Bear being king Arthur.
>>154645876Marrying him to the Antilife equation thing kind of limited the guy. There are a lot of other amazing superpower artifacts, gems, and devices out there in the universe but he is forever hooked to the antilife equation so he can never have any other type of interesting story. He will never go after the White Lantern and control all life in the universe. Or form a time destroying speedforce canon, or the miracle machine and literally create his own universe, steal the Rock of Eternity and upgrade his power with sorcery, nothing fun.
So I'm not really in the know with Darkseid in the comics but with all this talk about how Kirby wrote him and how he's changed, how do you guys feel about his DCAU representation?
>>154646320Mongul is not so tied down to a setting and storyline like Darkseid so writers can actually use him in a lot of more interesting ways. He can be a long troublemaker or a leader of an army type of villain and he is capable of doing shit like stealing Sinestro rings and hijacking that corpse for his own wants.
>>154651783Solid. Probably the highlight of STAS which I happen to not like very muchI don't think that the DCAU did enough with the Fourth World in general and they kinda blew off the entire anti life equation, but overall it's a good interpretation, one of the better ones over his historyAnd the voice is phenomenal. Michael Ironside should play him in the movies too, just give him a ton of prosthetics and Davy Jones like CGI
>>154651771>He will never go after the White Lantern and control all life in the universeOddly enough they did it for HF, and had him killing people with the life equation.The life equation that is literally free will in Kirby's works.
>>154646431Of all the stupid, half-assed ideas Bendis ever had, it really should have been Mongul that whored himself out to go join in space wars for the fun of annihilating species. He's an asshole, but you can also hire him to lead your army against other guys if you want.I did like the later story of the United Planets tried really hard to ignore Mongul and pretend they couldn't see him blowing shit up.
>>154651855My favorite DCAU Darkseid moment is an autistically small detailWhen Superman challenges him on Brainiac's ship, Darkseid just reaches for the boom tube because he wants to leaveIt's a moment of a man who isn't about boastful pride or some retarded inch deep villain, he's an intelligent person who knows this isn't the right move and there's no one around to judge him for itJust makes him so human, I love it
>>154645749>Ruined the News GodsDC kept them relevant and interest in them has maintained. Only people who feel possessive over them and don’t want anayway to play with with their precious glorbos would disagree
>>154650624It seems less impressive when loads of people have colossal scale mind control powers. Starro and Despero can do the same thing.
>>154650983Lex also sort of comes off as the angry loser that rages and seethes at the handsome chad simply existing. Then spends the rest of his life constantly trying to punch up to the guy that is better than him at everything and never really wastes time thinking about him at all. I never thought he was any kind of compelling villain at all. Just a really easy one to stick into movies and shows since it just takes a bald guy with no real origin.
>>154645749If not him then who else would be the big bad
>>154651617It also doesn't help with that portrayal when there are a lot of other aliens that are about as powerful as him or more so. Kryptonians and Daxamites seem to be on his level, Kryptonian technology appears to be overall more impressive. But also Sun eaters are a whole species of giant world killers, but you also have the Oans and Controllers that also do more impressive shit. Thanos is in the same position. In universe he is a half step above a Herald, and there are loads of more powerful guys than heralds. Starting with their boss Galactus. All the skyfathers and hell lords are above him and there are loads of them. Each of them rules their own little universe with minions too. This is before we get into the area of cosmic abstracts, and some of them are assholes too.DC should have maintained the AntiMonitor ruling the antimatter universe with the Sinestro Corps as his personal army. That's a pretty damn powerful group that would make the JLA nervous.
>>154651720That was fun. Especially when you consider the whole Arthur name could have come from the Celtic word for bear.
>>154651783He just seems like another one of those same old scheming villains that never does shit themselves, but he COULD if he wanted to. He just never wants to. He just send mooks to go do stuff and when they fail he sits in his chars and says something like>All according to plan.....Like it was some master stroke to have his mooks be defeated and his scheme fall apart. and he COULD go take down the JLA himself, but he doesn't feel like doing that today. Or tomorrow.
>>154645902fwiw they define fascism as "everything slightly not good" so in their mind they're automatically writing him as an allegory of fascism, other than random arcs where he turns good.
I think the main problem is that when you throw absolutely all sense of grounding away about a villain they just become a grey blob. There's nothing special or interesting about Darkseid if he's some fucking fundamental force of the universe. His ambitions don't matter, his backstory doesn't matter, his plans basically don't matter since they are all just going to be 'do evil thing' with no nuance', and so when he's beaten it won't matter. And your story falls flat because noone could possibly care.Besides which, he's definitely over-exposed as a villain by now.I'd like to see some villains of lesser popularity be brought to the forefront personally. The small time villains.
>>154651783Pretty good, but Timm botched the anti-life equation because he's one of those guys who never read Forever People.>>154652018Well that is Darkseid how Kirby wrote him.
>>154651855I know he's old, but that pic makes me sad.
>>154652390That was like fifty years ago kek
>>154652018>>154652278If a villain is immortal and is just seeking to win 'eventually' then it makes sense to just have goons do everything, since then they're at no risk to, for instance, some costumed dickhead with a god-killing bullet. The problem is actually spelling this out for the reader, rather than it is the actual logic behind it.
>>154651998>>154651617Doesn't Darkseid have meta narrative cosomolgy significance and stuff that makes him push his weight on a omnipotent and outerversal level like Lucifer and the Great Darkness? The rest of the New God's are also hyped to be this strong, and same thing with Superman and the Justice League with amps.
>>154647930Right but also I think he likes his characters being used in the spotlight sincerely
>>154652897That's a much much later Morrison invention. for some reason he really wanted to prop up the New Gods as cosmic abstracts that take the form of goofy weird humans in costumes that shoot lasers at each other.
>>154652897>>154653042All of that shit seems like it was actually invented to win arguments in VS threads on comicbloc. Because it almost never appears in a story or have any impact on any story. New Gods are still funny aliens with dumb names and nothing more any time they appear in a book.
>>154646317>but monsters are also people>"the frail sobbing child within crying out for for an end to the pedophile's pain must be understood by the child the monster rapes"listen to me very carefully you deranged fucking faggot:youwillNEVERbeawoman
>>154653264Obsessed troon
>>154653292yes, that is why i named the deranged tranny for pushing its "understand the monster" propaganda.
>>154652001Yes, Kirby seems to be aware of it, Vikyn being sent to past America makes more sense once you realize that he is named after Erik the Red.
>>154650788I said the DCAU is more responsible for making Orion seem unimportant and also an asshole.
>>154653196New God's aren't aliens they're magic space deities and a Patheon of platonic ideas.
>>154653954Aren’t the new gods in dc technically just aliens who absorbed Source energy? The Source being the accumulated cosmic energy from previous universes
>>154654010The live near the source as parasites of the thing and thrive a evolved as a race of gods from it. Like 40k daemons and chaos gods.
>>154654397Damn that’s hardcore. That Kirby guy was pretty ahead of his time
>>154653911It wasn't a New Gods series so he couldn't outshine the main character, but Kirby's Orion was something of an asshole and had to struggle with his genetic rage while trying to be a better person.
>>154654494>Eternalskek
>>154645749Yeah
>>154651783>Had I known one human's death would pain you so, I would have killed more. And kill more I shall. Carry that agony with you to oblivion, Superman!>I am many things Kal-el, but here, I am God.
>>154647527I liked how he went out of his way to cast the New Gods as more godlike in the traditional sense, instead of just superpowered aliens. These higher celestial forms that mount bodies in our world like the hatian lwa. It wasn't really faithful to the Kirby stories, but it made them seem way scarier.
>>154645749Blaming Big Two problems on anything other than their lazy chickenshit "write the same characters forever" business model will always be incorrect
>>154656332That's what drives me nuts about people that think Peter or MJ need to be killed off to "fix" Spider-Man comics, when the problem is never the characters but Marvel editorial's stubborn pigheadedness.
>>154653339Understand the monster has been a story format for hundreds of years? I don't get what TDS has to do with that honestly.
>>154645749>>154645783He evolved into it by default because there wasn't a 'big bad' and beginning in the late 70's DC began to see the utility of it. Also remember they didn't even have a Galactus type maybe Krona could have filled the role but he was considered GL 'property' which was also why Darkseid was used since no editorial team 'owned' the New Gods with the exception of the very brief post Kirby reboot and the Secret Society Of Super Villians (which also had a Paul Kirk Manhunter clone) that died in the DC implosion. Since Darkseid wasn't a planet conqueror and more of an obsessed evil philosopher king ruling over a tyrannical planet of planet of weirdo henchmen in a pocket dimension he could be a sustained recurring threat. Couple that with the undefined mcguffins of the anti-life equation, the source, the source wall, their 'godhood' and all their other Kirby wackiness it was easy to use him as a big bad for crossovers like the annual JLA/JSA stuff and the Great Darkness Saga. The final touch was whoever it was at Kenner, DC, or Hanna Barbara who decided to use him as the main ongoing villain on the final version of Superfriends and making him a generic baddie, replete with getting Wonder Woman to marry him. TL;DR He was there already and they needed a role to be filled.
>>154656535>the deranged tranny is now wondering what his trump derangement syndrome, which nobody but him mentioned, has to do with anything going on right nowevery time someone brings up pedophiles a tranny has to trudge on over to run some defense; concession accepted.
>>154656876Based retard
>>154647860Godfrey was already based on Billy Graham
>>154651855>>154652390Reminder that the Absolute Universe is made of Ironsinium.
>>154656978It makes me feel weird how hot the mom from My Big Fat Greek Wedding used to be.
>>154656919nah but i am totally correct, hence the deranged tranny's quick concession.
Gunn is scared of writing any character with an established fanbase and personality. this is why he turned Superman into a passive aggressive beta and Supergirl into a drunk party girl.we're never going to see Darkseid in film and I just feel bad for DCfags. meanwhile Thanos doesn't need to simp for death to want to cull half the population for his twisted attempt at saving the universe.
>>154645749>>154645883>What prompted this from ‘Fascist dictator who has a 50/50 chance when punching Superman?’That came afterwards though. Superman in the story where he met the New Gods written by Kirby said he felt like there he was just another "man" and he struggled fighting with a random city guard.Overall, during the Kirby run, Darkseid never got into direct clashes with DC heroes aside from Orion. He was really mostly a behind the scenes manipulator.It's after that was over and he started appearing in other comics Justice League and LoSH, that you instantly had various writers portraying him as a powerful god far beyond just a physical being.Don't forget originally he wasn't even affected by Crisis and gave a crucial blow against the Anti-Monitor.But then he got rebooted post-crisis anyway, and it was this Darkseid that was treated as just another alien warlord often coming into blows with Superman (and losing!). The eventual backlash to -that-, led to the virtually omnipotent Darkseid we have around nowadays.
>>154657038No
>>154656251I think it works with the feel Kirby wanted them to have, though. Simonson tried something similar in terms of feel in his Orion series and the nineties writers who established that Fourth World beings are actually giants and anyone who travels to their reality without a Boom Tube will be tiny. I like to see the physical forms of the New Gods as emanations of their higher forms—still extremely powerful, but just an avatar of the god.
>>154657186yes, and it simply isn't up for debate, little man. go read it all back very slowly if you still don't get it.
>>154657050>ThanosPic unrelated
>>154645749
>>154657318yeah we shouldn't talk about good characters in a DC thread.
>>154657405Go back
>>154657316Lol, tard
>>154657405No I mean Thanos wasn't in your image
>>154657425>laughing because it is clearly too hard* (caught your typo) to comprehendlel the bath tub tranny juice really fucked your brain good
>>154645783Thanos.
it's funny to think Darkseid was originally an interpretation of Chrisanity and Jesus to the new god's paganism.
>>154656876TDS for Tranny Derangement syndrome which you certainly are living up to. Also who is bringing up pedophiles besides you?
>>154658517Stop taking the bait, odds are you're arguing with an LLM anyways.
>>154654795Same creator remember
>>154657050I don't want to see Darksied in film, and Thanos is a prime example of why I feel that way.
Memba in eltingville when josh is telling his plan to become a writer at dc or whatever and just write the stories hes always wanted? Im like that with darkseid. Id just make that ending kirby planned of orion and darkseid killing eachother in the finale. Would be my fuck you to all the darkseidslop, darkslop. Better to kill off the character with dignity than having all these lame interpretations of big bad needs to be punched back into his boomtube
>>154658789They'd just bring him back later anyways.
>>154658789>MembaShut the fuck up and speak like an adult human being, you brain rotted retard.
>>154658834Settle down, life ain't so serious.
>>154656978I know, but Legends was in the mid-eighties and Godfrey as a Bakker-esque public figure would’ve made more sense than Liddy.
>>154658803I know that and id be fine with it. Which is why not letting kirby have that ending is all the more stupid as if they couldnt use him anymore afterward. Like alan moore with superman. Id just be happy to see that conclusion done on oficial dc material
>>154658517nah, that's not what it stands for and the fact that you had to explain your cope means your swing was a miss, unlike you who will NEVER be a woman ya water headed faggot.>>154658529trannies can't help but hop to the defense of pedophiles. it's not bait to them you moron: it's catnip.
>>154645749Nope. Him being an irrelevant, obscure baddie like say many other Kirby villains wouldn’t be better.The only issue with DC’s use of Darkseid is that they’ve made him too much of a slugfest character walking in the front line when that isn’t really the character. He’s overexposed
>>154645749I like Darkseid but I prefer Anti-Monitor as the biggest bad. It just feels right.
>>154660150Does the Anti-Monitor still refer to himself as “the Monitor” like he did in COIE?
>>154659995You are quite silly
>>154660150He already had his turn. He’s been lame every other time he’s been used outside of Sinestro Corps War
>>154660279And Darkseid has had plenty of swings at bat too. More even.
>>154648116At least Batman has cool ass vehicles and stuff in justice league crossovers. The fuck do shitters like Krillin or Isidro offer?
>>154645790The more you dig into comics, the more retarded you realize it is.
>>154660342>Krillinkeeps a hot character regularly appearing, sometimes funny>Isidronever offered anything in the first place
>>154660150You can't overuse him he's too dangerous.
>>154660292 Anti-Monitor actively becomes astronomically less cool every time you use him because it can’t live up to Crisis. Darkseid doesn’t have that issue
