What the fuck happened to Mister Sinister?
Gillen happend.
>>154800544wasn't he being built up as the next big threat?
>>154800544Kieron Gillen happened
>>154800544Those galas are some the most idiotic, tone deaf things the X-editorial has produced, and that’s saying something. I can’t think of anyone liking them that isn’t a low-iq fag that live tweets the met gala.
>>154800636We're supposed to believe Wolverine will agree to go to something that dumb and dress like an idiot.
There were always crazy people who projected themselves onto characters and devised weird head canons. Nobody listened to them. But now, they work at Marvel.
It's like the Meta Gala but somehow way more obnoxious. Which shouldn't be possible because the thing is ultimate cringe.
>>154800657Wolverine spends most of his days dressing like an idiot, he's not new to this.
>>154800820hiring fans rarely works out well
>>154800544Humiliation Ritual
>>154800931It was fine when they aren't part of the alphabet cult and are obsessed with changing everything into that. Roy Thomas, Kurt Busiek, and Frank Miller all had fan letters printed in Marvel comics.
Whenever I see him, I always think of Nolan North as Cyclops in WATXM yelling SINISTERRRRRRR.
sex with maddie
Sinister's first costume was a frilly cape with thigh high boots. Gillen merely made him even cattier than he already was.
>>154801239He was masculine and scary with shark teeth. Not remotely similar.
Clone power levels:Clone in name only: X-23Actually viable as characters: Ben, Kaine, MaddyStolen Valor: Clones that are functionally identical to the original and treated like a resurrection like M.O.D.O.K. Superior or Red SkullReoccurring guys: Stryfe, Joseph,Not important, but pervasive: Gwen Stacy clonesAt least a thing for a story: Carrion, Spidercide, MVP/Iron Spiders.Doesn't matter: Throwaway mirror matches, mass-production versions, and body doubles.
>>154800623No, Hickman happened. Gillen still had Sinister as a legit scary villain but Hickman turned him into a camp homosexual and blamed Gillen, resulting in Gillen having to spend his ENTIRE second run making Sinister evil and scary again.
>>154801299This was before Milligan, also a Brit, decided he was British all along.
>>154800657the guy who spent what was then years and is now more like hours of his life living in the perpetually rainy woods behind the ruined X-Mansion talking like a pirate to prove how feral he'd become without adamantium in his body?
>>154800899You are dressed like an idiot
>>154801173>>154800978the duality of diaperfags
>>154801299>>154801239>masculinemaybe at a drag show>>154801451some incredibly rich dialogue here from Jean "killed billions of people and fought her way out of the courtroom when she was put on trial for it" Grey and Scott "soon I will have my wetworks squad assembled, we just need to find the right children for the job" Summers here
>>154801517Nice cope
>>154801485in a yellow sleeveless onesie with bat ears? babe the only way his outfits could be worse is if they were all gay cowboy blue denim - ohoh no
>>154801527what do you think is masculine about the Men's Health gym bunny in the fmb's and capelet?
>>154801530Go back>>154801551Why are you weak?
>>154801530>Howdy!
>>154801517At the time it was published, the claim was that former wasn't Jean herself but the Phoenix posing as her while her body was repairing in the ocean and hasn't happened yet. Of course now where the setting is that Phoenix Force and Jean Grey are and have always been the same entity and Cyclops has done all kinds of kill orders, it seems strange.
>>154801530Fags be like>I feel attracted to these masculine figures>me being attracted to these masculine figures means they are gay>ooOOOoo honey, you like gay thing?>I groom children
>>154800544Gynocentrism
How does Marvel not see how stupid this is?
>>154803046It's fun.
>>154800544It was an attempt to kinda differentiate him more from "Apocalypse's occasional lackey who just acts like Apocalypse but with a clone fetish". It's not the best and I'm not sure it needed to be done, but I do at least understand why somebody would think a change would work.
>>154803078>"Apocalypse's occasional lackey who just acts like Apocalypse but with a clone fetish"Sinister has NEVER acted like apocalypse.
>>154801558why are you wearing that turtleneck
>>154801299>masculine
>>154802514do you seriously think Men's Health is a magazine for heterosexual men who just want to work out? it's softcore porn for gay guys, anon
>>154803190Soft Core porn for gay guys that teaches straight guys to look better for them. It's called Multitasking, sweetheart.
>>154800624If you mean the post-Hickman side of the Krakoa era, then Yes and No.The original Nathaniel Essex foresaw the inevitable coming of the thinking machines and their victory over organic beings, so with the intention of finding a way to defeat them created 4 clones of himself (or rather, 3 and 1 of someone else), each intended to pursue a different line of research to fight the machines. Sinister would research mutants, Doctor Stasis would research human enhancement, Orbis Stellaris would research aliens and alien tech, and Mother Righteous (a clone of Essex's wife) would research magic and deities. The end goal was that each of them, in a different timeline, would achieve Godhood through different means, which they did; but at the moment of ascension, their power would be taken by a fifth entity, Enigma, an AI clone of Essex. With all this power, Enigma became a Dominion-level AI, existing outside of time, so being able to interfere with the universe at any point he wished. Throughout the story, we see him intervene a few times, but not explicitly until the big reveal near the end.Ultimately he tries to convince all the other Dominions to team up to destroy the Phoenix, the only force capable of defeating him, but when the time comes to actually fight Phoenix, the Dominions realize it is only targeting Enigma, so they're not in danger, and they leave. In the end, Enigma is defeated by the Phoenix powered by the souls of every mutant in history, in a battle across time and space. Which sounds cool but depending on who you ask, it was either lame or just alright.The buildup, at least when written by Gillen and Ewing, was pretty good, with effective setups and payoffs. But when it was showtime, it all happened in a rush and it clearly didn't hit as hard as it intended to.
>>154803278Marvel gave everyone a schedule and then changed their minds and told them they had to wrap everything up five months sooner than expected. Gillen, Ewing, Percy, Duggan etc had to manage as best they could, Sabretooth War with Percy and LaVelle co-writing doubleshipped because that was too much of a potential moneymaker to cut short.
>>154803418Yeah. Everything about the Krakoa wrap-up felt extremely rushed, even as they divided the story through several simultaneous books; except for the Duggan side of things, which felt like it was spinning its wheels until the end, so it dragged horribly.
>>154800544>The brit who's been obsessed with another man's semen for the majority of his history... Is a faggot??!
Yikes.
>>154800544It's not like he hasn't been on a trajectory towards becoming wackier for well over a decade. Victorian clone king Sinister with his harem of sexy Madelynes and his elephant gun that uses cloned Cylcops eyes for ammo. He's just re-invented himself again is all.Comics wise the current "main" Sinister is specifically the one with the stolen X-Gene who killed all the other Sinister clones at the start of the Krakoan era. Still a complaint could be lodged since more recently (relatively, at the end of the Krakoan era) that the ORIGINAL Sinister has been dead since Mystique and Destiny were doing sexy Sherlock roleplaying, and became four distinctive clone copies of himself each with a different task driven by a particular obsession. The Sinister we know became obsessed with mutant evolution, Orbis Stellaris with exploring and collecting exotic alien genetics and tech, Dr. Stasis with the intelligent redesign of humanity, and Mother Righteous with mysterious magical spells and entities. And, of course, the non-organic "clone" of his mind in the form of Enigma.
>>154803504Krakoa was garbage from the start.
>>154805333Yes. It always sucked.
>>154800544It's the Mandarin problem where when you have a villain who's pretty much just a classic supervillain (Fu Manchu), he comes across as forgettable and lacking personality when compared to the other villains in a rogues' gallery. On his own, he's fine. But in a group, it's hard to distinguish him.It's kind of a shame because Sinister's lack of charisma stems from Claremont's original plans for Sinister being changed (he and Gambit were the psychic constructs of a mutant child). Gambit made it out okay because even with his backstory changed, he's still literally everything a tween boy finds cool. Sinister didn't reach the same success as Gambit, unfortunately, and that's because Sinister lacks the cool factor that Gambit has.I can't really blame Marvel for making him a zesty and eccentric mad scientist. That's a niche that hasn't been tapped into as much, and you can't exactly tap into the other mad scientist variant archetypes without stepping on the toes of established supervillains.
>>154803078I think it was partially a mistake because Apocalypse has never been the most interesting character. He's supposed to be Marvel's Mutant Darkseid (whereas Thanos is their Cosmic Darkseid) except this mostly boils down to "big moron supremacist who thinks Social Darwinism is the basis for a civilization".Thanos makes it work because even if he's a chud version of Darkseid, he's still psychologically complex and has interesting relationships (his respect towards Mar-Vell, his friendship with Adam Warlock, etc). What does Apocalypse have going for him?
>>154800820why weren't you dedicated enough to get hired at Marvel instead of them?
>>154806986Apocalypse is EVOLUTION PERSONIFIED. He makes X-Men educational and teaches kids scientific theories whenever he is on panel. Apocalypse is Edutainment. HE ENDURES.
If /co/ had their way with Mister Sinister, he'd have a harem of his own clones but they are various female goth designs that he routinely ravishes for his own personal amusement. They would be called the Sisters of Sinister rather than using his dead wife as a template to create a single milf (Mother Righteous).
>>154807115I know it's a joke, but I've become fixated on the idea of reinventing Apocalypse as a weird morally complex wild card who will be friendly to the X-Men one week and then horribly villainous to them the next. Compared to Magneto, he'd be a weird schizo supremacist who values both humans AND mutants but hates aliens and wants to do away with democracy.>breaks into the X-Mansion, proceeds to educate the kids about political theory, leaves by blasting a hole in the wall (despite coming in through the front door the first time)>(one week later)>tries to abduct the X-Men to forcibly upgrade them into weapons to attack human supremacists and mutant supremacists alike (does not see a problem with this)Very autistic and amoral.
Mister Sinister and Apocalypse remind me that X-Men '92 did not really do a great job at instilling motivations in their villains besides Magneto. I look at modern comics where Mister Sinister and Apocalypse are on the side of the X-Men and wonder what could've led them to that given the motives I Thought I knew they had in X-Men '92. Then I realized...in X-Men '92 I couldn't remember any motive at all. They were just mustache twirling villains who would talk down to the X-Men, fight them for a bit and then run off.
>>154800544I still don't get what his powers are
>>154807284I still wonder what Sinister's character could have turned into had his original backstory been kept. The idea of a supervillain discovering he's basically a kid's OC would make for a compelling story.>Sinister becomes obsessed with being "real" and having total freedom. He either becomes more villainous but in mundane ways, gives up supervillainy entirely, or tries to murder his creator>Sinister falls into despair upon discovering his memories aren't real and that he has no life outside of supervillainy, no actual friends or family to return to. He attempts to make real connections with normal people, or tries to force his creator to create more constructs so he won't be alone.>Sinister becomes incredibly alienated by his inability to act like a normal person outside of his supervillain persona
>>154807366>How fortunate for you, Gambit. You get to have friends. A family. A home to return to. A life outside of your heroism. Everyone loves you and you don't even think twice about it.>What do I have outside of my dramatic speeches and grandiose plans? Who will welcome me with a warm embrace and a home-cooked meal? Who will ask me about my day?>I don't get to have hopes and dreams. Naive ambitions. Embarrassing childhood memories. Birthday parties. All I have to look forward to is more of the same. Antagonizing the X-Men, being defeated once more...and being completely alone.
>>154803278this footslut was just another Sinister creation?
>>154806986Apocalypse was solely an X-Factor villain in the first few years of his existence. Bob Harras pushing him as a bigger deal was a mistake.>>154807162Claudine Renko died years ago but I'm sure he has a version of her tucked away somewhere.>>154807284TAS Sinister's motivation was that he wanted an army of mutants to help him rule the world. Apocalypse, also wanted world domination which he achieved in Cable's future. "Take over the world" is tried and true for kids' cartoons.
>>154807761It's horrific to me that they change villain motivations from the comics to the show. That should not be done.
>>154807761But WHY does he want to rule the world? What drives a man to achieve dominion over other people? Marvel supervillains usually have something that explains their desire to achieve their evil goals. They're either mid/low IQ idiots or have some tragic past.The lack of motive makes sense if the original backstory is kept (and it can go places), but without that, you're left with "Saturday morning kids' cartoon villain".
>>154807825Mr. Sinister was barely defined when they made the show. He was a mysterious guy with mysterious motivations who did bad things for no explained reasons. Claremont had his "immortal boy" head canon which Marvel rejected because they thought that would ruin both him and Gambit. Years later they made him a mad British scientist who was enhanced by Apocalypse who wanted to create a supermutant who would kill Apocalypse so he'd no longer be his servant, then just engage in mad science for the sake of it.
>>154807839A lot of people love having power over others and using it, that's just reality.
>>154803046Money.
>>154807919Nathaniel forgot where he came from
>>154807882But people only end up like that because they're raised in shitty households growing up. Most evil in the world is selfish stupidity born from selfish stupidity.
>>154803278God this is stupid. X-men comics are so retarded.
>>154807958Alexander the Great didn't have a tragic backstory.
>>154807963It's a daytime drama for men, though a good number of women are into it as well.
>>154800544liberals are more interested in gay bullshit than class consciousness. so they'll create a fascist ethnostate with bad clothes instead of integration
>>154807162>not using your dead wife to make a goth MILF baddie you impregnate to maintain your goth daughterclone harem
>>154807963>>154807999Its kind of weird. Why did X-Men go this route of being a soap opera for men rather than the route a lot more super hero books went down?
>>154808309Stan Lee's Marvel was always soap opera antics.
>>154807979Alexander the great grew up in the vipers' nest of Macedonian politics, was very likely nearly assassinated and was probably exiled for pissing off his dad, and may or may not have had a hand in his father's death. It likely wasn't all bunnies and rainbows.
>>154808309Most comic books are Soap Operas for men.
>>154803046Editorial and writers are to much into their own asses to see what they are doing
>>154801371Anon Gillen started the campy Sinister crap. Gillen was the one who made the character lose anything intimidating about him.
>>154807162I would write Sinister as a gigachad 40k mad scientist who fucks evil clones of Marvel's sexiest women in between fucked up experiments
>>154807559Yes. A clone of Sinister's wife.
>>154810460Sinister becomes an unwilling Avengers villain after they find out he built a duplicate of the mansion, cloned Jarvis to be his butler and has been cloning various Avengers to act as his house staff. He doesn't really have any ill intent to the Avengers, but he picked up their DNA samples at a bargain price and needed a weekend project
>>154807963Is that supposed to be complicated? Cable is older than his parents due to time travel. Rachel is from a different dimension.
>>154808309>Its kind of weird. Why did X-Men go this route of being a soap opera for men rather than the route a lot more super hero books went down?Look ok long as there's explosions and boobs the actual story was never that important.
>>154800636Literally the only good result was Rogue's VA wearing the actual Hellfire Gala outfit with matching wig and she made that shit look GOOD
>>154804999>Mystique and Destiny were doing sexy Sherlock roleplayingWorseSherlock Holmes is canonically a character Mystique became who Conan Doyle wrote about because Destiny is in fact THE Irene Adler
>>154806882>he and Gambit were the psychic constructs of a mutant childChris needed to have an editor tell him if Legion were autistically retarded he couldn't come up with Jack Wayne or Remy but even if he could the IDEA was retarded
>>154807311Looking like Colossus with facial hair
>>154807456>Who will welcome me with a warm embrace and a home-cooked meal? Who will ask me about my day?https://youtu.be/P_SlAzsXa7E
>>154807311Whatever he makes them. He's not a natural mutant, he spliced that into himself.
>>154812098>Destiny is in fact THE Irene AdlerShe was meant to be married to the heir to austro-hungerian empire and escaped to America and was never mentioned again in the ACD Sherlock stories So later writers making Irene Adler a big thing is always weird
>>154800544>Why does Mr. Sinister read differently over thirty years apart?!?It’s called character development. Claremont wrote him as a child who never aged, which was a lame idea. Gillen meanwhile reinvented in a way where he was actually entertaining as a character without him needing to do anything
>>154812273>Claremont wrote him as a child who never agedHe left Marvel without canonizing the idea. In the actual comics Sinister was completely unexplained until Milligan wrote his origin in the mid 1990s.If you actually find Gillen's Sinister entertaining, nobody here can help you.
>>154812207Same with Moriarty, who like Irene also only actually appeared in a single story but is in every piece of SH media all the time. The Holmes stories didn't really have a cast of recurring characters besides Holmes and Watson themselves. They are extremely self-contained episodic adventures. So anyone who wants to do a more longform form of story telling or give Sherlock a kind of "goal" doesn't have a lot of options.
>>154812430Moriarty at least appeared twice and was in the story where Holmes "died" so him being upgraded to an arch-enemy for Holmes makes some sense
>>154812477No he only appeared once (the Holmes death story). He was merely mentioned in a second story but was dead during it.
>>154810401Gillen's Sinister was great and powerful and it took the Phoenix Five to beat him. Hickman made him a campy joke. Gillen himself had Sinister on panel talk about how Hickman was wrong for treating him as a joke.>>154812283Read Classic X-Men #41-42 and "Sinister is actually Nate from the orphanage" is all about spelled out. Marvel rejected the idea.
>>154812813Maximum campiness
>>154812071Pics? Link?
>>154812207>>154812430>>154812477>>154812486The difference is that Moriarty really could have used setup in other stories before his appearance. Adler, on the other hand, is the most "strong female protagonist'd" characters in fiction, when her actual story was that of an ordinary woman trying to get away from her possessive ex and outwitting the private investigator he hired simply by knowing how men like Holmes and her ex think. And what is possibly the worst thing is that Irene Adler was one of the most blatant and intentionally feminist characters of the time and modern adaptations either miss the point by making her a supergenius and/orlove interest to Sherlock, or an actual criminal.
>>154810998>Cable is older than his parents due to time travel.And his mom is a clone of Jean created by a crazy mofo who was into eugenics, and Jean and Scott raised him while body hopping into the future somehow, and the entire reason he was sent to the future in the first place as an infant was because he got infected by a disease, and he has super duper telepathy/telekinesis that he can't use because he is using it to block the disease 24/7 (how you do that unconsciously is anyones guess), and then he comes back into the present and runs a paramilitary group against Apocalpyse so the future he comes from does not end up to be, and he also fights Deadpool.And the number of his teeth varies wildly and his legs are often obscured because he was created by Rob Liefeld.Now compare that to say Spider-man who got bitten by a radioactive spider, and keeps fighting bad guys because he is guilty about letting his uncle die.Which one is more complicated?
I think it's jut really tone-deaf to have a story about a marginalized lower class that has to live with the world fearing them, and then they're out there throwing aristocratic balls dressed up all fancy.
>>154813730Thanks to JMS and Slott Spider-Man is now also complicated thanks to the Totem and web of life and destiny crap.
>>154813796Mutants were an allegory for Jews and that fits just fine.
>>154813730Most of that is largely irrelevant to a basic explanation of Cable.
>>154800544I prefer Mr. Mister.
>>154813914No, retard
>>154816555>"marginalized lower class">live in a big mansion with fancy clothes, no need to work for a living
>Sinister Breeding PitsSo I've just finished house of X/powers of x and are those actual breeding pits or just labs?
>>154818058The latter, but given the orgies on Krakoa its easy to imagine the former.
>>154815226>TAKE >THESE BROKEN WINGS>AND LEARN TO FLY AGAIN>LEARN TO LIVE SO FREEEE
>>154800544Who the fuck is that?
>>154803046>How does Marvel not see how stupid this is?Go on, explain to me how Mister Sinister is much more stupid than the Green Goblin or Doctor Octopus.
>>154806986>What does Apocalypse have going for him?His TAS characterization, and AoA. That's about it. He is such a complete loser outside of that.
>>154800544Fags and hags
>>154807963Is that Joseph getting his mind blown? Ironic.
>>154822548Wasn't he decent in X-Factor too?
>>154803278I hated the tail end of Krakoa but liked the stuff with the sinistersit was a good way to make a villain part of something more without giving them a one time ultra power boost
>>154808309Because it sold.X-Men was the biggest Marvel title during soap opera times while the original more straight super hero comic was quickly canceled.Similarly Spider-Man got a lot more popular when the romance comics person took over from Ditko.Melodrama sells.
>>154812430That kind of thing happens all the time.See Conan and Toth-Amon (the two never actually meet) or even TMNT and the Shredder.It's kind of baffling how the turtles treat the Shredder as some kind of scary existential threat after killing him in issue #1 and meeting actual alien empires. It probably wouldn't have happened if the cartoon didn't make Shredder THE villain. Even if he was a clown.
>>154807366>>154807456A little too maudlin for my tastes, but this is still better than Sinister being written like Shore Leave from the Venture Bros.
>>154801451This is fine. Though I agree that a lot of British comic writers have tendencies that don't jive well with US comics.
Sinister has the potential to be a great villain, but they made him a total clown.
>>154800544I get Jean genes of Omega mutant, but what was so special about Scott Summers that Sinister wanted exactly him to provide his genetic material?
>>154824936He is gay leave him alone, jesus
>>154808309It started as one. Idk, i guess they had that idea of sitcom about special people in a secret school, who are still human despite having superpowers, and that is why they fall into all sorts of character drama. Misunderstandings, cheatings, 'oh actually Huanito is not my son", "I hate you", yada yada yada.This is actually the huge test for Marvel's capabilities to translate that Santa Barbara core into MCU medium. They love to play it all safe with the characters, making them all extremely bland and watered down, but X-Men should not be safe. It should have romances, should have rivalries, pettiness and so on.
