Jack Kirby arguably had a bigger influence on Marvel than he did.
>>155029875kirby was the artist, stan was the ideas guyyou can always replace the artist
he is to Jack Kirby what Walt Disney was to Ub Iwerks
Jack Kirby didn't create Spider-Man. And Stan wasn't just the writer, he was also the editor-in-chief.
>>155029875I like him because he said spiderman should be white
>>155029875He was the face of marvel, because they all agreed to it and wanted a spokesperson. The dude was in every adaptation well before the mcu. Whether deserved of not, he simply was.
>>155029875stan is the face of marvel because he was charismatic and could get along with people>>155030161he deserved it because he was suited to the task of being facevery few people had the talent for promotion that he did, especially in a niche as small as comics were at the time
>>155029875Marvel wouldn't exist without Lee, Kirby, and Ditko. You need all three.
>>155029875Sure.
>>155029900>kirby was the artist, stan was the ideas guyNot really, Kirby was usually the bigger ideas guy too. Stan was an ideas guy too to an extent, he'd throw out ideas and decide the general plot, but also the guy handling the overall direction of the comics and the final dialogue that got on the page. The reality is gray and complicated, but Stan does deserve a lot of credit for what he did.>>155031028Also this is true.
>>155031028Plus Bill Everett helped co-create Daredevil and Wally Wood gave him the iconic red suit.
>>155032214The way Stan Lee described it in the 60s (and his interviews from that era are quite honest) he would make a few notes about what should happen in the comic, discuss it with the artist and then send them home to draw based on the notes from their meeting. I don’t think he ever gave someone a full plot (and Kirby, he freely admitted at the time, did most of his own plotting as he drew).You can sometimes tell that the instructions were just on the level of “X fights Y,” so he pushed almost all his writing work to the dialogue stage.Younger writers mostly didn’t work this way and were expected to give the artist some kind of a written plot. The downside of that of course is instead of saving work, it makes more work for everyone, because the writer is basically doing two scripts and the artist has to figure out how to break down the plot. I think that may be part of why Marvel Style writing doesn’t happen much any more after the new Marvel management in 2001 started asking for full scripts.
Stan deserved it because he was the only one who put up with Martin Goodman for 30 years.Stan is the face of Marvel. Jack and Steve Ditko are the soul of Marvel.
If he was anything, Stan was an excellent salesman and advertiser. He knew how to sell comics.Kirby didn't have the personality to be a media guy. Dikto certainly didn't have a media friendly personality and thought his work should speak for itself. It wasn't until much, much later where Ditko finally figured out that if you stay silent, people are going to just make up their narrative about you. Even then, he was mainly addressing the narrative through hand written letters.
>>155029875Kirby did tons of work for DC too, pre atlas (marvel) and post 60s it would have been hard to make him the face of marvel.
>>155032540Yeah,Kirby is more the face of comics.For Marvel is Lee or O'neil, and O'neil also did shit for DC.
>>155030234>stan is the face of marvel because he was charismatic and could get along with peopleThis. By all accounts Kirby, as talented as he was, just wasn't that kind of extrovert social butterfly type. He'd be terrible as a spokesman. You can scoff at it, but the whole "Smilin' Stan" approach, treating readers as personal friends or part of a big club and the like, was instrumental in selling Marvel in the 60s.
>>155030009>And Stan wasn't just the writer, he was also the editor-in-chief.It's a bit sad that this gets drowned out by the Lee/Kirby stuff, because everything else aside he was an extremely talented editor and EIC. He managed to juggle an astonishing number of books by himself and keep them both coherent but also having their own individual voices.
>>155029875He is like Walt Disney, he knew how to sell himself.
Stan didn't invent shit, he filled speech bubbles that were already there.The "Marvel Way" of stealing somebody's else's work.
>>155029875I think him and Jack Kirby should both be dug up and paraded everywhere until I find them and bludgeon them like smelly pinatas.
>>155033658Stfu>>155033694Seethe, troon
>>155029875>Jack Kirby had a bigger influence than the chief editoryou people have a real naive view of how these things work
>>155029875It's funny that for a long time Stan Lee got too much credit for everything Marvel produced and now he gets talked about like he's a Bob Kane tier fraud.
>>155034032That's because of seething nobodies
>>155034032People love simplified black and white narratives, sadly.
>>155033745No it's true. He just came in praddled on for a bit in speech bubble so he can claim he did much of the work and collect the paycheck. Even had some kind of rigamaroll to put his name on all books so that he could be credited in some way and collect an EXTRA paycheck on top of that. The man was a sheister, he was that kind of jew afterall, but he was also a great salesman and hard at work selling marvel to hollywood and the like.
>>155034083Stop seething
>>155034091Seething about what? It's all true.
>>155034176About reality
>>155034204Ah, you are upset about reality Okay.
>>155029900kek
>>155034221No
>>155029875I see Stan Lee as the American Torishima, Toriyama's infamous editor. He was a great editor and without him the titles wouldn't be nearly as succesful but he isn't a creator. It's Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball after all
>>155034266Ditko happily gave Lee credit for his contributions to Spider-Man. To my knowledge, Kirby never said the books he drew were 100% his, he was just irate that Lee was the guy who got all the royalites.
>>155034266It's a good comparison in some ways, but I think it undersells Stan's writing role. He was more actively involved in the actual content on the page than Torishima. Like Torishima wasn't writing all the dialogue and text that appeared on the page unlike Stan. Despite any disputes over crediting, it's safe to say Stan genuinely was a co-creator of the comics he wrote for.
>>155034369Yeah. This article gives some pretty good on it all.https://comicbookhistorians.com/the-ditko-version-exploring-steve-ditkos-recollections-of-marvel-in-the-1960s-by-rosco-m-copyright-rosco-m-2023/
>>155034421*pretty good background, forgot a word
Stan is an idea man, he's a catalyst. He sees someone make a stupid story, and he sees the potential and makes it much better. But he also can't come up with good shit on his own (see: Striperella), so he needs others ideas to improve on. But he was credited as co-creator on most creations so I don't even understand what's the problem, other than him fucking Kirby's wife.As for him being the face of Marvel, that's something he earned by being there non stop since the 60s. Every story starts with "Stan Lee presents" for a reason. The one time Kike Perlmutter tried to have him removed, he ended up having to give him a raise and a non-exclusive clause (a rare case of a jew getting out-jewed).>>155034369Ditkos spiderman looked completely different and wasn't nowhere near as interesting.
>>155034449>Ditkos spiderman looked completely different and wasn't nowhere near as interesting.Sorry about that, I got confused, I was thinking of the early concepts of Spidey where he used a gun but that was apparently Jack Kirby's version of him and Ditko designed the one that became the actual Spidey.
>>155029875and your legs had a bigger influence on getting you to your job than your face did. Yet, when you greet your boss, you look him in the face. that's a face's job. Stan was a TOP face. he was a face's face. best face a body could ask for.
>>155034449Stripperella was fucking amazing, dude. watch it.The Chief alone is a laugh fucking riot.
>>155032390a lot of Kirby's work doesn't make any fucking sense without Lee's dialogue, yeah
>>155029960>>155032809Walt Disney was a dicky hack who damaged western animation in the long run and is the reason why it’s mostly seen a children’s medium today. Stan Lee didn’t do any longterm damage to his medium.
>>155034779Sneed
>>155029875Nobody would care about Ditko and Kirby today if not for Stan.
>>155034793Formerly Chuck's
>>155034808This. I like them both and Stan worked them exactly like prompting A.I. but he also sold the books.
>>155029875Hes the face cause he wanted to be, he has the personality and character for itkirby and Ditko were introverts.
>>155029875I'm glad he's dead, it's just too bad capeshit itself isn't...
>>155035476Faggot
>>155029875He was the greatest marketer, so I don't mind him being the mascot, the Walt Disney of comics, but like Disney he was also a fraud and a hack
>>155035596All wrong
>>155034779uh, that would be hanna and barbera
>>155034898Stan Lee is the Steve Jobs of comics, they were great hype men and they sold themselves as the face of a brand that was far bigger than them. They took credit for things that others make bigger contributions to but ultimately the cult of personalities they built around themselves help the company they served in the long run.
>Kirby and Ditko will live forever through their work>Stan Lee belongs to the Disney CompanyKirby and Ditko won
>>155036032>They took credit for things that others make Stan didn’t, ESL
>>155036086Jack Kirby's kind of a dick too for keeping Barbequor locked in CN's vault.
>>155035352You kinda have to be an introvert to be a great artist, there’s a reason voice actors get more attention than tv show creators and animators.
>>155036086No
>>155036102I thought it was Marvel
>>155035903During the animation golden age most studios like Fleischer, Warner, MGM, etc. all made content geared towards adults meanwhile Disney geared itself towards children and family audiences and Walt constantly fought against its more mature competitors to be the most recognizable and popular, its domination of the animation industry is why most people see Disney as the gold standard of animation even though most of their Renaissance-onward films are overrated kitsch.Hannah Barbera didn’t originally gear itself to kids, it wasn’t until the animation dark age when there was a heavy push from parents groups and christian conservatives that animation became heavily sanitized. If Hannah Barbera did anything to damage western animation it was introducing costcutting techniques.
>>155036262Yes and no, supposedly it was the Jack Kirby estate that had a problem with Silver Spooner. As for Rude Removal, CN has no excuse not to include that in Dexter's recent DVD boxset.
>>155036267>even though most of their Renaissance-onward films are overrated kitschNo
>>155036086Haven't watched anything marvel since 2021Do they still make stan lee cameos in movies?
>>155036501>lol i'm the father of capeshitIt's no loss.
>>155036510Stfu, troon
>>155036089He's been quoted as saying he took credit for anything that wasn't nailed to the floor. He got credited as the co-creator of Doctor Strange despite it being 100% Ditko. I loved Stan and on the whole he did more good than harm but you're wrong.
>>155035352Ditko was an introvert, yes, Kirby, nah. He was a real tough guy, not afraid to speak his mind. He lacked Stan's silver tongue which was the problem.
>>155032214Kirby's ideas were usually "pirate booties" and "aliens did the pyramids" tho
>>155037165>aliens did the pyramidsSo that's where "documentary" shows keep getting the retarded idea? LMFAO!
And what of good Ditko?
>>155037165True.
>>155036102Kirby was dead before Dexter's Lab was even a thing, even if it's his estate it has nothing to do with his own decisions.
>>155038377So it's a bunch of bureaucrats? That's even worse!
>>155037193The Ancient Austronauts theory wasn’t made by Kirby
>>155038426Ah, I imagine it must be an even STUPIDER reason. That's usually the catch with these things LOL.
>>155032603You'd put O'neil before Shooter?
>>155034479We don't even know if the picture that you're thinking of was Kirby's spiderman, that's all based on hearsay and there isn't any surviving art of it.
>>155034666I don't like Lee's dialog a lot of time, but Kirby's is worse
>>155034083Nigga setting the tone for the story and making the page flow with dialogue is a legitimate contribution. Besides he was also the writer for most of marvel at the beginning and the editor so he literally managed the entire line of comics and established the base of the universe as the sole story teller before other writers fully came in. Giving him the credit he’s due doesn’t diminish the contributions of the artists at all
>>155036141Kirby died surrounded by his living family, Ditkos nephews and family have been respecting his wishes to stay private, Stan Lee died having to constantly go to comic con signings while having his literal blood drained to sell. Stan Lee in no way actually won in the end
>>155038674He got to have a beautiful wife that loved him for most of his life though. The end of his life was rough for sure, but Stan seemed pretty happy up until then.
>>155029875Stan Lee hyped the shit out of Marvel and got people to be fans. Nobody since him has come close to promoting comics with their name and face.
>>155029900Pretty funny
Stan Lee scripts:>this week, the fantastic four fight the mud manGreat writing Stan.
>>155029875Stan was the ambassador for the brand even back before this stuff was cool. He'd go to campuses and TV interviews to preach how cool Marvel was. Dude put in the work. Fuck yes he deserves to be the face of Marvel
Kirby is as much of a legend as he is due to Stan Lee being that good of a hype man. He was always prolific but Stan Made him legendary, Lee would even hype up letters. this level of credit was unheard of in comics before that.
>>155039927>this level of credit was unheard of in comics before that.Not true. Stan did give a lot of credit to artists when other companies (DC) didn't, but EC Comics had already credited writers and artists individually, and even given them profiles that would cycle through monthly issues.
>>155040084I specifically thought of that story, but again the difference is that Stan made as many people as he could at the company a recognized figure. Not just stand out artists, but inkers, editors, secretaries, letters, colorists, and so on. Before then it'd mainly be stand out artists like Wood who'd get recognized within comics themselves
>Spider-Man gets ambushed by the Green Goblin by tricking Peter into thinking he's merely shooting a Spider-Man movie
>AND THEN THE HULK IS THERE TOO AND THEY FIGHT A BIT THEN HE FUCKS OFF INTO THE BLUE SUNSETI know it was standard back then but I wish Stan Lee had the restraint to let some pages breathe or not resort to... whatever this is.
>>155030009>>155040487Without the mustache and glasses, these old depictions make him look like Kevin Spacey>>155034159That's the sleazy porn star I know, the other type of sexual creep
>>155029900This
