What the fuck is it about this dude that makes people go nuclear when you suggest that he can be written as anything other Satan in a human skin suit? I didn't see people getting this angry when the X-Men started palling around with Sinister and fucking Apocalypse on Krakoa. Villains get redemption arcs all the time in capeshit and shounen, but with the way everyone's been reacting to this one, you'd think Norman personally tried to kill them or something.
>>155129881> I didn't see people getting this angry when the X-Men started That's because of a mix of the modern X-men fanbase being complete retards and people being used to the X-men being hypocritical douchebags at this point
>>155129881>Why isn't the hero friends with the sadistic villain who has spent, in-universe, roughly a decade and a half trying to murder the hero or actively fuck up his life and everyone associated with him?Tell you what, OP, I'm going to spend the next fifteen years showing up to your house once a month and try to kill you. Sometimes I might try to kill your friends and family as well, maybe burn down your house. Then after 15 years I'll see if you feel like having a couple of beers and watching the big game.
X-Men readers are fickle sociopaths who should be on several watchlists.
>>155129881>I didn't see people getting this angry when the X-Men started palling around with Sinister and fucking Apocalypse on Krakoa.X-men oldfags had completely given up years before that point, and their more modern fans are insane lunatics.
>>155129881To be fair, he's done basically every evil thing you can think of. >Sinister and fucking ApocalypseThat was stupid, and so are X-Men fans for rolling with it. At least Norman has the excuse that his sins got literally purged out of him, and it was because Peter fed him to the sin eater, so there's an actual reason for Peter to stick close to the guy, him being essentially his responsibility.
>>155129947Anon, I don’t know how to tell you this, but he isn’t real.
>>155129881He's like Magneto. He's too far gone for a redem->X-Men started palling around with Sinister and fucking ApocalypseTHEY DID WHAT
>>155129881White straight male characters get a pass. OP wouldn't be saying this shit if Norman was a woman.>t. HQ fan.
>>155129947So, Magneto, Sinister, Apocalypse?
>>155129970Everyone should be alive villains and heroes am just started reading I don't care about continuity drama
>>155130034Yeah they put Sinister and Apocalypse on the ruling council of Krakoa, which was another iteration of the mutant ethnostate. Very Israel coded, full of debauchery.
If you're using the X-Men as the barometer for morality OP, I don't know what to tell you. Especially citing fucking KRAKOA for morality tales.Maybe maybe maybe Norman could be written with a redemption arc - one not involving either amnesia or a fucking shotgun lobotomy.But Peter and MJ should never be okay or comfortable in his presence, it denies their Humanity and their entire history. This guy killed their friend, their daughter, their well-being for years and years.And good Norman has led to nothing but Spiderversity and begging for Supersuits to saave from the vulture. You're going to need better justification OP for this retarded status quo. Spencer who pulled the trigger never had Peter trusting Norman sincerely, that was another of Wells awful inventions.
>>155130199>Especially citing fucking KRAKOA for morality tales.Krakoa was written by writers who genuinely see nothing wrong with Krakoa and think the mutants did nothing wrong.
>>155129881>I didn't see people getting this angry when the X-Men started palling around with Sinister and fucking Apocalypse on KrakoaWhat, did you only stick to Reddit and Twitter? Cause people were calling the X-men monsters and zionists for years thanks to that shit.
>>155129881He killed GwenHE killed his unborn babyHe locked Aunt May in a coffin for months No I don't care his sins were eaten that makes no sense.
>>155130298OP doesn't seem to care for continuity, responsibility or humanity from the cast. Just change for its own sake regardless of logic because other shows and comics do it.Maybe they do OP, but I sure hope they are doing it with better skill than our shotgun lobotomy.
>>155130134X-Men are hypocritical sociopaths who golf with rapists and eugenicists on the weekends isn't the gotcha you think it is.We want them to have actual principles again without being written into the Krakoa mud, not have other capes join them rubbing shoulders with their rapists.
>>155130362You’re right, actually. I don’t care about any of those things from the fake people living in a fake world where you can punch problems to death. I care about being entertained. I find Norman trying and failing to be a hero, yet not giving up because he thinks it’s the right thing to do, entertaining. By that metric, he’s succeeding in what he as a fictional character was created to do, just as I’m sure Magneto, Sinister, Apocalypse have, because they’ve committed crimes way worse than Norman’s and you all easily accept when they’re given grace by the narrative.
>>155130530So you're satisfied with slop accomplished by anything. If it lets Captain America and Red Skull go bowling.
>>155130466What principles? You mean when they espoused quiet replacement for humanity instead of active genocide?
>>155129881Because he should have stayed dead.
>>155129881It's like Batman & joker being besties it's fucking retarded
>>155129881>I didn't see people getting this angry when the X-Men started palling around with Sinister and fucking Apocalypse on Krakoa.People have been constantly complaining about it since it happened.
>>155132790I don't think OP if serious and not a shitposter for slop, actually knows much about the online discourse.Krakoa has been a on the hour nuke for discussion blackhole since the start.
>>155130214Am I the only one who recognized that Krakoa was written as doomed to catastrophic failure from the beginning? That having all these mutants with wildly different agendas together wasn't supposed to work? The only reason it lasted as long as it did was because it sold better than the X-Men had in years and writers liked playing with the setting. Hickman always intended for that shit to go up in flames.
>>155134808The reason it was always doomed to catastrophe isn't because the writers saw it as a project doomed to destruction from within because the mutants involved are all bad actors with conflicting bad agendas, but because of the industry trend to revert to the status quo - which, for the X-Men, isn't a powerful ethnostate in a position of power and privilege that's unchallenged by all states and nations of Earth, but as an "unjustly" hated and oppressed minority. You can't have the mutants screaming victim when they're all eating steak and lobster in the richest nation in the world that can trivially destroy anyone or anything it perceives as a threat, either overt or covertly. Asgard's not on Earth anymore, and it changed the status quo even less by being in whichever midwestern state that starts with 'M' it was in.
>>155129881People love Peter Parker.Norman has really hurt Peter Parker.It's not rocket science.
>>155130034They also left Wolverine for dead to be turned into a cyborg while replacing him with a clone.
>>155134898Yeah whenever I read a Mutants are oppressed narrative my mind immediately dives to Hellfire Gala's full of smarmy and beautiful champagne drinking elite - except that's our cast.We need a Chat or some actual down on their luck Mutant looking in from another nation absolutely apoplectic about what this has done to Mutants and their reputation.
>>155134808>was written as doomed to catastrophic failure from the beginning?that doesn't make the fact the characters were willing to pal around with Mr Sinister and Apocalypse okay, it's a shit excuse for a shit story.
>>155134898Of course a radical shift in the status quo will usually revert eventually, but the writing never treated the X-Men working with villains as redeeming the villains, it treated the X-Men as either naive or corrupted by associating with them (or both). It's a far different situation than ASM earnestly treating Norman Osborn as someone worthy of Peter's forgiveness.
>>155134984>It's a far different situation than ASM earnestly treating Norman Osborn as someone worthy of Peter's forgiveness.It is, and I don't think that Osborn's ever going to actually ever genuinely going to be someone worthy of Peter's forgiveness - because of status quo - but one of the areas that I see as most different is that the X-Men and their villains are, for the most part, in control of themselves in a way that Norman Osborn isn't. Norman's mental instability's been used in the past to explain the worst of his villainous actions, and he's been depicted as being temporarily cured to varying degrees that have resulted in varying degrees of redemption (although this is a highly imperfect word to describe it - I struggle to articulate what I mean succinctly here). Although even before Norman got Goblin'd he was kind of a piece of shit, he wasn't really evil evil most of the time - sometimes he was rough on Harry, other times outright abusive, I grant. But he wasn't genocidal like Magneto or complicit with a genocidal asshole like Magneto's Top Guy Toad, say. Peter honestly shouldn't trust him at this point, and it's really stupid of Marvel to bring out this old chestnut again. Honestly I don't even know what I'm saying anymore at this point, so I'll just say two things:1) Thank you for reading my blog.2) Fuck mutants.
> I didn't see people getting this angry when the X-Men started palling around with Sinister and fucking Apocalypse on Krakoa.We did. Everyone who wasn't a secret fascist was turned of by the Uncanny Ethnostate-mensch literally getting in bed with their worst villains.Fuck, there were people calling this the Liberal version of Red Skull's speech that /co/ loved so damn much. Almost all of Krakoa was us waiting for this to blow up in their faces spectacularly.
>>155129881One, I don't buy Peter ever accepting Norman Osborn as reformed, and two, ITS FUCKING BORING redeeming villains, especially pieces of shit like Osborn. Sometimes a bastard is just fun.
At this point I'm convinced "Reformed Osborn" is just a blatant troll from Marvel as yet another excuse to piss off fans
>>155129881>Spider-ManletNo wonder Gwen cucked him.
>>155135220I am at peace with the fact that the original X-Men died suddenly and largely ignobly and were replaced by those weird golden egg skinwalker things, for I know that's the angle they're going to go with when some writer realizes that they crossed a line in Krakoa.
>>155135255Brevoort needs to go, the enrage to engage strategy was always morally bankrupt and short-sighted, but in an age of piracy the only possible way to grow the market and keep profitable is to be making a product to be loved and people love.They have a shrinking market of aged collectors and die hards and do a fantastic job alienating any new young customer.Compare this to some multiple thousand dollar a month artist on patreon - the cottage industry flying under the radar of a C&D getting money just giving people what they want.
>>155129881Why does "reformed" have to mean "in his victims' circle of friends"? I'd love it if people who've bullied me reformed, but that doesn't mean I'd be comfortable with seeing them every day.
>>155135255It probably is. But Lowe is another key figure to that tactic and believes in it wholeheartedly. I'd bring it up again at a con if I could.
>>155129881>i didn't see people getting this angry at x-menOP you stupid fuck it was storytimed on the regular for years and there were at least a handful of us constantly bitching
>>155129881>I didn't see people getting this angry when the X-Men started palling around with Sinister and fucking Apocalypse on Krakoa.You should have been here
>>155129881>I didn't see people getting this angry when the X-Men started palling around with Sinister and fucking Apocalypse on Krakoa.People were critical of it constantly around here. Then there were people that just liked the art.
>>155130034magneto gets a diatribe where he talks about capitalist plans to take over the world economy, reminiscent of anti-semitic elder protocols of zion propagandaliberal writers proved if you cut a liberal a fascist bleeds because they glazed a fascist ethnostate and also had magneto literally compare krakoa to israelOH and cassandra nova who was responsible for the 16 million deaths on genosha was just allowed to join everyone. then the writers shat on beast instead
>>155130034apocalypse was allowed to join to, then he went to mars and could have just set up dozens of secret bases so he can be a problem on two planets? who the fuck knows. damn the consequences.
Spencer went full retard with the sins stuff and the whole him crying to kindred to not kill Peter and Harry.Wells as retard as he was at least tried his best with Peter not being sold about the change of heart. Others writers did the same (Williamson for example).So yeah, this seems more a Rebirth's/Dawn's Luthor or when Siniestro became Green Lantern again than turning Black Manta or Apocalypse a Hero.
>>155134984>as either naive or corrupted by associating with themThey outright retconned Apocalypse's motivation and personality. Of the other three, Selene and Shaw were treated as chumps that everyone was running circles around and Sinister wasn't trusted and kept at arms length - they just underestimated the scope of his plan.>>155136715>if you cut a liberal a fascist bleedsThat's a communist slogan, which is ironic because Krakoa is far, far closer to a communist society than a liberal one.
>>155135239>One, I don't buy Peter ever accepting Norman Osborn as reformed,He bought it for Eddie Brock, Kaine, and a lot of other villains like Sandman, the original Beetle, Rhino for as long as it lasted, and even once shared an apartment with Boomerang, who was a professional assassin.And most of you guys bought all of that too. I do get the sense too many people self-insert as Spider-Man so much that they act like Norman's actions were attacks on themselves, and they would never trust or forgive Norman, and so the guy they self-insert as should act the same as they would.
>>155137747The difference is frequency and consistency in terms of severity of actions against Peter. But I suppose it's easier just accuse everyone of being delusional self-inserters than make an actual argument against the position that it's out of character.
>>155137747Eddie was the only one you listed who went personal and that forgiveness was entirely because Marvel needed a justification for why Spider-Man wouldn't try to stop Lethal Protector Venom. Not even the writers at the time liked it.Kaine was mentally unstable because of clone degeneration. I think you can make a decent argument for why Peter wouldn't/couldn't forgive what Kaine did regardless, but it's closer to the Vermin, where he's not rational due to a condition.The others are depicted as "blue collar" criminals where their fights were never personal. Spider-Man was just trying to stop a crime and it ends there.
>>155137747Calling people self inserters is a way of dodging the discussion.
>>155137747Your grasp on Peter's character is so poor you are officially within Marvel employee territory.
>>155138301>KaineIt's been almost 2 decades since I read clone saga but Didn't Kaine target Ben more then Peter because he thought Peter was a clone like him and Ben was the original and thus hated Ben or something?
>>155138480Yes, but Peter opposed his murderhobo ways especially after killing Otto, and Kaine ultimately got Peter arrested for his murders.That said, nothing modern is particularly in character for Kaine until Yost so it's hard to even see them as the same character.
>>155129881Norms was always lots of fun, especially when he was running the avengers
>>155129881>I didn't see people getting this angry when the X-Men started palling around with Sinister and fucking ApocalypseI got that mad about both of those. I also got mad at Magneto and, to lesser extent, Emma Frost being forgiven.None of those villains have been as constant and focused on the destruction of the X-Men specifically as Norman has been toward Peter/Spidey.
>>155137747How many of them killed Gwen Stacy and Peters unborn child?
>>155135239He fought the Goblin Stand one on one and destroyed it, so YES; Peter would believe that Norman's been redeemed.
>>155129881The X-Men are a minority, so they can't do anything wrong.He, on the other hand, is a businessman—a crime the Left cannot forgive.
>>155136715>you cut a liberal a fascist bleedsThat’s retarded; they literally fought a world war to kill them.
>Norman is a good guy just trying his best >Ben is lolpsycho evil for the 2nd or 3rd timeSpider-Man is in an odd place
>>155136137True
>>155139448It's not hard to understand: Norman is fun and Ben is boring.
>>155139448Norman was also a more compelling Spider-Man and Ben was a more competent Peter while Pete was lost in space.That's how bad things are.
>>155139511It makes sense; Peter Parker sold his soul to the devil and lost what made him so good.
>>155129881>People werent mad at thatPeople WERE mad at that anon, where were you?
