Ok /co/ years after the fact have we matured to the point where we can recognize that this wasn’t that big of a deal? Moreover, that “fridging”, if we are even going to dignify that as a term, is a legitimate way to motivate characters to action and a classic literary device that has been used since, perhaps, the dawn of story telling?
>>155135548It was cool
>>155135554If the pub was intended, bravo. But seriously, yeah, I mean it served a narrative purpose.>B-but reduction of characters to Narrative devices!I don’t know how to break it to you, hypothetically objector, but every character is a narrative device. Each character plays a part in advancing a story, funnily enough.
>>155135548This was made a big deal by an idiot who's now being eaten by the same crowd she was once pandered because 'oh, how dares she to write a woman who won't abort her child'.It was a stupid idea that ignored that men love women so much that they would go insane if something happens to their beloved.
>>155135548People overreacted to it, no doubt. But I’d argue the scene fails because it comes off as try-hard edgy and ends up looking silly more than horrifying. It’s nothing to get offended over, though.
>>155135548It wasn't that bad but at the same time it really wasn't that good and really should have just been avoided entirely plus the issue is when it's such lazy writing, need to give a male character motivation? Kill his woman! It just reduces women to being mere male motivators and not characters of their own which is the main issue with it.
>>155135599I’m just not really convinced that this trope, in of itself, is bad because it “reduces characters into motivations.” Yes, it does that. That’s part and parcel with a particular type of story, especially revenge tales. Sometimes it’s done well, sometimes it’s done poorly. This, however, is a writing issue rather than a gender issue. People gender it because, naturally, it’s male characters that typically lead in these types of stories but the same could easily occur in the inverse. Really, it just kinda gives off the impression of people finding problems where none reside.
>>155135548>Moreover, that “fridging”, if we are even going to dignify that as a term, is a legitimate way to motivate characters to action and a classic literary device that has been used since, perhaps, the dawn of story telling?the problem with fridging is that it disproportionately affects womenand often women who were created solely to die and never had an internal lifethe number of men fridged are essentially just thomas wayne and uncle benbut thomas wayne has since been retconned to be the source of bruce waynes morality, using his riches and his medical knowledge to help peoplewhile martha remains just the mom who dies, most famous for owning pearls
>>155135653>“reduces characters into motivations.”Not characters, women. You're misconstruing the issue by painting with too broad a brush. > these types of stories but the same could easily occur in the inverse.They could but they overwhelmingly don't, like yeah a woman could rape a man but if you look at it gender violence is a one way street. Which is why writing about rape in comics is seen as juvenile and crass. Could a woman be killed off in a way that is written well? Certainly but lets be honest how often is that versus fridging
>>155135653the solution is incredibly simplecreate tons more disposable male characters who do nothing but die for someone else without having any internal motivationsor allow women to actually be characters who do things and have their own motivations and arcs before they inevitably die for someone elses benefit
>>155135677Fine we'll do a story where the protagonists dog gets killed instead of a woman and it's the biggest mistake the guy that killed it will ever make.
>>155135701John Wick?
>>155135689We alredy have those like rampage cop's partner who is 2 days away from retirement. Or optimistic young lad that believes protagonist is a hero even if others think he won't makes it. Or wise old father figure who warned protagonist about loosing himself to anger before dying.
>>155135701you could just unfridge the woman, giving more depth to their character even after death and exploring the wants and needs they had in life and why their death was a tragedy in and of itself rather than just being a stepping stone for someone elses development you could even keep them in the narrative despite being dead, with characters repeatedly bringing their lack of a presence up and reminiscing about themstill not as good as having an actual character in the storybut its at least a step up from being a disposable character
>>155135715All of those you mentioned have more character/personality than "woman who dies"
>>155135715all 3 of those archetypes always have at least some presence in the story when they diethe old mentor had an actual job in mentoring the character when they are alive and their death has an actual impact on the plot because they cant use their powers to solve everything anymoreall of them are a step up from "wife who exists to die"
>>155135722That's very reductive way to describe loving girlfriend who supported protagonist through his hardest times from before story because she's calm insightful and a positive force in his life. She has just as much persality implied as any male cliche trope.
>>155135677Well, like I said earlier, I’m just not really convinced this is a problem. I mean yeah, men are motivated from the death of women. This is a literary device that has existed since, well, really forever. Solomon Kane hunted down a vagrant to avenge the death of a woman he didn’t even know, and according to Mythology, the men of Rome were motivated to overthrow their tyrannical King and establish the Republic after Lucretia had killed herself imploring her family to avenge her. Sure, sometimes, it’s done terribly but, again, that’s just more of an issue of the writer being a poor writer than really an attack against women. Truly, this story can, and has, worked in the inverse, it just needs to be done in the service of a compelling narrative rather than as cheap shock value or to push a meta point. Same goes for when this trope is done traditionally as well.
>>155135740>That's very reductive way to describe loving girlfriend who supported protagonist through his hardest times from before story because she's calm insightful and a positive force in his life.which absolutely does not describe OPs example, where the character barely got a dozen panels before dying and is barely brought up after dying
Wow, look at all the incels in this thread acting like their opinion matters.
>>155135752Then maybe give her more panels, so her death is more impactful, than a cheap shock value?
>>155135752Sarah Grey got 2 minutes of teaching her sister to mindrape people but you don't see the same crowd screaming about "Venting" tropes either.
>>155135749>. I mean yeah, men are motivated from the death of womenand the problem is that a majority of disposable characters who exist solely to die without any interiority are womenit isnt even the dying specifically that is the problem, character death makes for more interesting plots its that they will create a woman character solely to die without ever fleshing their character outeven jason todd had the dignity of having a backstory and a few adventures before dying men arent given the same "honor" of being disposable character development fodder nearly as oftenand no one ever even thinks to give the fridged woman posthumous character development, which is the least you can do
As always, it depends.Nuance and execution is all, the idea you have a blanket ban on a character whose early death is used to shock and start the rest of the plot is just absurd. It's as old as mud for a reason.
>>155135762congratulations, you just suggested the easiest possible solution to fridgingmake them actual characters before killing them
>>155135740These kinds of characters are only written in how they relate to their boyfriend not how they are humans on their own.
>>155135777the issue is not that they kill a character off for motivationits that they create a character with the barest minimum of a personality whose only narrative purpose is to die, and its almost always a woman
>>155135772Inigo Montoya's father has 0 seconds screen time and starts out dead as motivation that's less than fridge girl got.
>>155135790and if this was as common as the dead wife or the dead girlfriend, then none of us would even be talking about this
>>155135790It also helps Inigo frequently references said motivation hell it's his catch phrase bringing up his father and it's a genuine driving force to his character whereas a lot of these women die and are forgotten about after a few issues
>>155135790Because it was never about his father, but about Inigo pain. That's why we cared.
I am of the opinion that all shock-value writing is retarded shit written by hacks. And therefore any backlash against that dumb shit is justified even if they do it for questionable reasons.Also, people eat this shocking death and other edgy shit up because the average person is a retarded piece of shit with no taste who should never be allowed to comment on anything. So everyone can go fuck themselves.
>>155135780Rampage cop's partner is only written in how he relates profesially to rampage cop then he gets shot.
>>155135772Once more, this seems more a writing issue than a sex issue. Indeed, I think, if handled competently the character, yes, even if it’s a woman, killed can have no personality to speak of. Especially if it is to show both the virtue of the Hero and the senselessness of the death. To refer back to the Solomon Kane Story I mentioned earlier, titled Red Shadows by the way, Solomon never even learns the name of the girl that was murdered. Yet he avenges her anyway. That’s a phenomenal tale, and one excellently written by Robert E. Howard.
>>155135819the "2 days from retirement" partner might be barely a character, but at least we get more of their character than "girlfriend who dies"just by virtue of having a peek at having a family and a desire outside of the main characterthis is the lowest bar you could possibly imagine and yet people still write the dead wife with less character than that
>>155135830>this seems more a writing issue than a sex issue.Can it not be both?
>>155135786You're inventing hard rules where it should always be up to the skills of the writer and execution.Like >>155135830 or >>155135790 said, you don't even need a name or introduction, it's whether it looks crass, tasteless or exploitative. 90's shit is often guilty of all three, but you can't just say an elaborate amount of screentime must be given each character prior to them being killed off.In many ways that can even death flag to any media savvy audience.
>>155135830in a vacuum, having characters who exist solely to die is a non=issuewe cant expect every red shirt to have a backstoryit becomes an issue because when you need an expendable character to die to make the maim character sad, its a womenand even when you kill of a male character to have the same effect, they usually have at least a bit of a personality before dyingwhen taken across every comic, every movie, and every book ever made you start to see that men are given more backstory before dying more of the time
>>155135848fridging was simply descriptive>women died more often than men>women rarely got as much development as men when they died>women rarely died on their own terms and for the benefit of other characters
>>155135848I wouldn't say a hard rule is required or that it's a must and anyone demanding women never be harmed in a story is fucking retarded, just that it is noticeable that women frequently especially in death aren't being treated whole characters, if it wasn't so common and the gulf between male and female characters so wide this wouldn't be such a pointed out issue.
>>155135677The problem with fridging is it's hackneyed.Any contrarian excusing that sort of just-get-the-plot going approach is why those like Bendis can squeeze out shit like Civil War II.
>>155135860>>155135874I'd attribute it more to there being many more male characters as leads than female, so more female love interests are to be fed to the drama mills.More of a symptom not a cause kind of issue.
>>155135850Well, anon, and for the last time tonight I think the issue is just the tact and competency with which the trope is carried out. Like other anon said here >>155135848 it really only is an issue if it’s done crassly and without any tact. I think you may, frankly, be hyper sensitive that it happens to women because you’re, as many people are, upset when women die. So it’s disgusting, and silly, if done crassly. The problem here, however, is you’re not seeing the forest for the trees. The problem is schlock writing. It wouldn’t be an issue if it’s competently executed. If handled poorly it would be equally in bad taste if the character was a young boy or even an animal. In this case, for this trope, they are interchangeable. It just happens more to women, not for any nefarious reason, but because naturally Society, particularly young men who are usually the target audience for this type of story, wants to protect women.
>>155135962Why learn how to write when you can pick a single trope variant, isolate it and declare it "how every story has been since the dawn of time" and how giving your talentless fat ass unlimited resources is the "only chance we've had in all of history to undo this oppression" that year zero shit also doubles as a way to discourage people from reading the better stuff that came before you.
>>155135749>>155135830>>155135962What comic is the redhead from?
>>155135962women being fridged more often then men is the problemthe solution is to either fridge men more often or give women more character before or after killing themits pretty simple
>>155136032Oh she’s from Hero Killer. Her name is Highnoon. I admit, I haven’t read the comic myself but she had proven quite the gold mine for reaction images.
>>155135548>Moreover, that “fridging”, if we are even going to dignify that as a term, is a legitimate way to motivate characters to action and a classic literary device that has been used since, perhaps, the dawn of story telling?I mean I’m with you 1000% on this part.
>>155136095and has been mentioned, the problem is that men are fridged nowhere near as often as menthe ultimate issue is that women are not given as much development before they are killed and then dropped from the plot as soon as they die
>>155136045If that, in of itself, is the problem even when the trope is handled well then honestly I’m more or less ambivalent towards it. I don’t even really see it as a problem, if you want to kill more men to motivate women leads or, alternatively, give more characterization to women who was killed to motivate a male character go for it, so long as the story’s good is all I care.
>>155136107>Who *were killed. I hate that I can’t edit
>>155136053>Hero Killer. Her name is HighnoonThx
>>155135790Exactly.You are allowed to use characters as plot devices. Always have been. Not every character needs to be fleshed out to the nth degree. Millennial writers don’t understand this though, they view fiction as nothing more than a lens to view society at large and comment on social issues. Minimizing a characters role in the plot is the same as marginalizing a person, especially if that character is some minority.
>>155135860I’m curious how common fridging is in romance novels, and especially in those written by and for women.
>>155136106>problemFor who? There’s no problem with stories that use this trope on principle.
>>155136140But his father really isn't minimized that much given how he keeps getting referenced
>>155136167NO ITS A PROBLEM BECAUSE THE NUMBERS AREN'T EQUAL ALL HAS TO BE EQUAL BAN ALL ODD NUMBERS ODD NUMBERS ARE PATRIARCHY.
>>155136134You’re welcome!
>>155136174Fridge girl has been referred to in the comics for decades. I've seen /co/ posters make "IT KEEPS HAPPENING" jokes when a new issue brings it up.
>>155135830NO ITS NOT A WRITING ISSUEIT IS ONLY A SEXIST ISSUEAND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU ARE A SEXIST INCEL CHUD!!!!11111!!!!!!
>>155136189this is a strawman I AM VERY SILLY talk the issue can be both since often times with writing issues are multifaceted
Instead of bringing up Alex’s death, why doesn’t some writer just tell her story prior to that? Maybe even explore what she was doing before meeting Kyle. Maybe have Kyle find her old journal or something to use as a framing device.
>>155136214Because she's more useful as a tool of THE MESSAGE than as a fleshed out character.
>>155136174Ok, keep moving the goalposts I guess.
>>155136189its a sexist issue that results in writing issuespeople are lazy and thus are more likely to create an expendable woman for cheap emotional beatsthe lack of expendable men only really highlights that when they think of cheap emotion, they think of a dead wifemaybe the only male archetype that comes close is the redshirtbut even then, you can least assume they had some choice in putting themselves in the line of fire we rarely ever get to know why the dead wife wanted to marry the protagonist
>>155136199More like>shit writing is shit>shit writing use cheap troups >cheap troups are shitThere, no other exploration is needed.It was just more frequent on women since the stories back than were more focused on male leads stories since male readers were the target audience and not many women were nerds interested in comics.As simple as it is.It was not about sexism, just hack edgy writing for retards.Do you really want more retarded writing just for the sake of “feeling equal”?
>>155136231Why don’t you write a video essay you faggot? You’ll probably get hundreds of thousands of views spouting this cultural Marxist bullshit.
>>155136237Every written thing ever uses tropes you fucking hack millennial piece of shit. Killing off a character to motivate another has existed since the fucking Iliad you fucking mouth breathing tranny.
>>155136246I said “cheap troup” specifically for when it is badly done. You dingus
>>155136246would it be so bad to give women more development before killing them?or to occasionally have a man do nothing except die?
>>155136246Have you considered that it would be more equitable if they both stopped fighting for a 300 page lecture from Athena and Hera about how 4th trimester abortion is morally justified.
>>155135677>the problem with fridging is that it disproportionately affects womenThat's because most of the protagonists of cape comlcs are men, and killing the love inetrest is a basic narrative tool
Look, I don’t know why people are getting hostile with the Anon I was talking with earlier. I disagree with him that it’s a problem, but he’s been nothing but civil. Look, it’s the internet, heck it’s 4Chan in particular, so go ahead and type fag, retard, etc to your heart’s content. I just personally don’t think it’s really warranted here.
>>155136254Writers alredy do both and produce other stories that need neither too. You are just repeating some talking points you got from tumblr like "orcs = blacks in Middle-earth".
>>155136263UNEVEN UNEVEN WAAAAHHHHH MAKE IT 50 50 MOMMY I HATE UNEVEN.
>>155136254The character who gets fridged in the Iliad is a fucking dude by the way. Dozens if not hundreds of dudes get “fridged” in the Odyssey to motivate Odysseus. Hamlet fridges Polonius. It’s basically a staple of renaissance literature to kill off some dude to get the plot moving.
>>155136273>Writers alredy do both and produce other stories that need neither toothe problem is that women are disproportionately written to die without having any other character traits compared to menwould it really be such a crime to narrow the gap?
>>155136268I’ll fucking RAPE you
>>155136279whats wrong with making it more even?women characters who arent created solely to die and male characters who are
>>155136282MOMMY MOMMY ITS NOT 50 50 MOMMY GROUND THE WRITERS MOMMY NO I WON'T JUST READ SOMETHING ELSE.
>>155136281polonius had a job, he has an actual personality, his purpose in the story was slightly wider than to just diehe even gets to command some subordinates at one pointif most women who were fridged had that level of development, as shallow as it is, it would still be an improvement
>>155136289It’s not uneven, the woman who came up with this trope pulled it out of her fucking ass. Historically, men AND women are killed off early in stories to motivate protagonists.
>>155136305>Historically, men AND women are killed off early in stories to motivate protagonists.but it happens more often to female characters and male characters usually get at least a bare minimum of character rather than just being a cardboard cutout
>>155136311WAAH NOT 50-50 MOMMY MAKE IT 50-50 I WANT 50-50 MOMMY
>>155136286
>>155136311Fucking kill yourself you incompetent tranny. You have no idea what you’re talking about. You can’t provide any actual evidence for the things you say.
>>155136214Ah you see but that requires effort, thinking and the writer being willing to build up a story rather than moving on as fast as possible to next shocking moment, because that's readers want to see (legit mentality of most comic book writers).>>155136106I beg to differ, men are killed just as often for shock value as women. The difference is that the writer thinks (perhaps correctly) that nobody cares about a random man dying, so he has to build up the character to make the reader care. Conversely, the writer thinks people will automatically care about women and children dying (i don't think the writer that came up with black manta killing arthurs child particularly cared about building up the child's character), so he can just move on to the next plot point. And then there's the writers that can't relate with heroes or heroines with stable relationships, or heaven forbid, actual long term marriages or parenthood and so the first thing they do is kill off the family (like donna troy losing the husband and child in a car accident), have the hero make a deal with the devil that undoes their marriage (omd) or age up the kid so that there's no need to be a parent to them (superman).So get that feminism excuse out of here, it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
>>155136346>men are killed just as often for shock value as womenthe men usually have some role in the plot before being killedthe men usually have some character before being killed offjason todd was killed off solely to cash in on a trend, but he died trying to protect his mother and he had been a recurring character for a while up to that pointalexandra was created for the sole purpose of being killed later on and got zero depth as a resultthe only male characters who get reliably fridged are redshirtsbut they tend to be part of an organization that gives them a personality as a whole, even if not individually
>>155136374Keep moving those goal posts maybe you can stuff them in the fridge.
>>155136374Yeah because tim drake had plenty of character build up before being killed in the recent absolute batman - oh wait, no, he existed to be motivation for jason todd and because the name tim drake means something to the reader and his death is thus somewhat shocking.Any character can get reliably fridged if the writer doesn't want to deal with them anymore. In infinite crysis superman prime was slaughtering titans left and right without building up their character or anything, yet of the less prominent heroes only pantha can occasionally get a mention out of that whole ordeal.Once again, the only criteria for "fridging" someone is if the writer thinks it would be shocking for the reader, it being a man, woman, child or pet animal is in the end irrelevant.
>>155136465BUT NOT EQUAL NUMBER MAN WOMAN NOT 50-50 MAKE IT 50-50 REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
