Which era of spiderman is the "definitive peter parker"? Like Ditko's peter is iconic but I feel like any casual spiderman fan wouldn't be able to recognize his very misanthropic and reactionary take on Peter if it was reintroduced today
Every Spider-Man knockoff has better stories than Spider-Man. This character has a Fantastic Four, Flash, Green Lantern, etc. The problem is that they’re dated and haven’t evolved. They never take real risks; everything has to be some big gimmick. Black suit? Gimmick. Hot girlfriend? Gimmick. One of his best stories reimagines the character because if he were written according to “canon,” he’d be a total garbage character.
>>155367907Delusional lmao
>>155367619Lee/Romita's Peter is a natural progression to e/Ditko's character and defined him for decades until the people writing no longer had a grasp on adulthood
>>155367998Look, I like the Ditko run, but there are better things—much better than Spider-Man. The series never stepped outside its comfort zone. Even an outsider media outlet that’s always criticized handles the story arcs better than Marvel itself. The character’s canon in the hands of writers unburdened by editorial and commercial concerns was better. The Spider-Man manga from the ’70s was much better than the 1970 Spider-Man himself.
>>155367907>>155368054Really delusional lmao
>>155368153Okay, can you recommend a good Spider-Man story?
>>155367619I think Spider-Man is mostly good up to the Clone Saga, but I think Conway's run is when it becomes the character we all think of. Not saying that's the best run, but it's the blueprint.
>>155367619I always liked Bagley. I mean 616 Peter. Not that godawaful Hanson ass haircut Ultimate had. Fucking Christ that hair was a plague of the late 90s and early 00s.
>>155368197Nta but here
>>155368197Nother good 70s story
>>155367619it was all great, with some ups and downs, until they balked at bringing his Parents back. turning them into Robots gave them permission to make other terrible decisions
>>155368197This one is fun and wraps up a classic gag plot
>>155368153Outside of If This Be My Destiny all of Ditko's run was boiler plate villain of the week episodic comics. Peter get in a fight with Flash at school while Flash talks about how great Spider-man is. Liz flirts with Peter and Betty or Flash gets jealous or Ned flirts with Betty and Peter gets jealous. JJJ yells at Peter and complains about Spider-man. I just describe every Ditko era Spider-man comic save for a few like the F4 crossover. It's not until George and maybe even Gwen die that the story starts to feel like it has continuous story worth getting invested in. Liz and Betty feel like a cheap knock off of Betty and Veronica from Archie comics. Hell MJ and Gwen are also guilty of that but at least MJ grows out of it in after Gwen dies.
Romita Pete's the same guy as Ditko.
>>155367619In my humble opinion, 90's married spiderman. He's fighting random assholes in costumes, occaisonally fighting venom, the sinister six and guest starring in every single new comic and teen comic there is. That's the spiderman that everyone knows and likes. Misanthrope spiderman isn't popular.Highschool spiderman is only popular if it's ultimate or miles.Current single spiderman in comics and everything made since OMD...unmasking has been so shit that everyone writes it off as bad fanfiction.
>>155368197Amazing 172-173Ross Andru does a sick molten man
>>155368433>That's the spiderman that everyone knows and likesSpeak for yourself, autist.
>>155368267>I think Conway's run is when it becomes the character we all think of.Really? Don't get me wrong, I like Conway's run, but he just picked up the torch Stan had already passed him, his late issues are pretty much already there in terms of consistent characterization.
>>155368400I wonder what it would be like if his parents did stick around for real. It all ended up being a very stupid story but maybe it could have been something nice.
>>155368426>Ditko's run was boiler plate villain of the week episodic comicsYes it's a monthly cape comic. Nothing with letting the world breath and building a cast>Liz flirts with Peter and Betty or Flash gets jealous or Ned flirts with Betty and Peter gets jealous. JJJ yells at Peter and complains about Spider-man. I just describe every Ditko era Spider-man comic save for a few like the F4 crossoverThese are all the plots that snowball you're claiming don't exist in Ditko's run. You're just simplifying it all to make a point and all that stuff plus the villain origins, Pete's moments to himself, aunt May stuff, that's plenty of material in 38 issues. >Liz and Betty feel like a cheap knock off of Betty and Veronica from Archie comics. Hell MJ and Gwen are also guilty of that but at least MJ grows out of it in after Gwen dies.What's wrong with any of this? Spider-Man is a young man and a big part of that world is about finding a good woman
>>155368485There comes a point when I wonder: What is Spider-Man's appeal? Even great writers have avoided writing about him. There's always been a great lineup of artists, even in the dreaded 1990s. But what exactly is his appeal? Maybe I'm just a jaded late-20-something wagie, but I just don't see the appeal.
>>155368529You're an early 19 something zoomie if you can't see the appeal of Spider-man
>>155368529Yeah he's a hopeful hero who doesn't puss out you wouldn't get it
>>155368433>everyone writes it off as bad fanfictionIt is. We are many degrees separated from the creators and their successors. Older creators closer to the source are dismayed at the direction the series has taken. See the whole Youth v Responsibility Brevoort v Defalco philosophy.These are fans giving us the Eltingville Club treatment prophesied, difference is they are doing it under the banner of copyright law.
>>155368529His appeal now or then? Because if you're asking me if modern ASM Spider-Man is relatable or has appeal, then I'll agree with you that a character written by around 60 year olds doesn't actually reflect the youth.But back then Peter was an actual character dealing with grounded problems complicated by the Superheroics he on his own volition chose to do.Right now most problems are things thrown at Peter, with the manchild having limited agency because of Slotts flanderization of 'Parker Luck'.
>>155368197
>>155368529>There comes a point when I wonder: What is Spider-Man's appeal?For me, it's always been Peter trying to compartmentalize different personas and aspects of his life, and his conflicts of avoiding or actively trying to stop those sides of his life from interfering or engaging with the others. We all have different sides of our personalities that contrast or conflict between our personal life, our family life, romantic life (or lack thereof), work, and school, and Peter/Spider-Man is just a story about that dramatized and writ-large on a superhero canvas.
>>155368619That’s the Spider-Man fanon. I’ve read those stories and didn’t get that impression. Much of it can be seen in the Raimi and even Holland films. Even the parodies struggle to pin down his character. Spider-Man is a bland character, but he’s a textbook “blank slate” you can write anything into him.
>>155368676>I’ve read those stories and didn’t get that impression.Then you might be an illiterate retard, that's an undercurrent that runs through Ditko's entire run.
>>155368699Where? If I remember correctly, there wasn't any planning back then. It was just “what's going to sell this month”; it was never about a big story arc. That's fanon stuff. That's why I keep saying that fanon Spider-Man and his expys are better than the character himself.
>>155368699Most adaptations leave out his temper.
>>155368676You either haven't read much or you're trolling. This anon >>155368619 is correct. >Much of it can be seen in the Raimi and even Holland films.Comic Peter is more three dimensional than both of those though. How exactly are they better in your eyes? >Even the parodies struggle to pin down his characterYou're talking out of your ass now lol
>>155368738How is that fanon? The "big plan" wasn't conceived from point A and Peter's characterization changes in a natural way over those smaller villain of the week plots and eventually develops more throughout the Romita run. You're legit obtuse
>>155368825The fanon is Peter becoming a hero after Uncle Ben's death and taking the responsibility thing super seriously, when the canon is that he immediately quit being Spider-Man and only went back to it to earn cash to help May out.
>>155368825>struggleAll the movies frequently show how financial and emotional struggles shape Peter as a character. In the comic books, it felt less thought out. “Peter is angry about something” is not shaped by our prior knowledge of the character. They just wrote that the character is “angry, a blank state.” Peter, especially the 60-70s Peter, isn’t a complex character. I think these interpretations are what lead to nonsense like “Ditko’s Spider-Man is an objectivist, ” which is BS.
>>155368887>The fanon is Peter becoming a hero after Uncle Ben's death and taking the responsibility thing super seriously, when the canon is that he immediately quit being Spider-Man and only went back to it to earn cash to help May out.That's literally Peter's character growth between Amazing Fantasy 15 and the climax of Amazing Spider-Man #33, that's Peter's natural development as the book proceeded, it wasn't a snap character moment, it was something that grew and developed over time.
>>155368197ASM 151-153bitch
>>155368485It's not a drastic shift from Lee/Romita, but it felt different. Gwen's death was Spider-Man's first actual failure and it weighed on Peter tremendously. It also set up Harry and MJ's development after being stagnant for a while. The basic formula didn't change but it still had new things happening with those three. I think this was also the point where Peter and Flash actually started to be friends instead of just in the same friend group. I feel like that sense of possibility is what BND was meant to recapture, but they were hung up on youth instead of growth and fucked it all up.
>>155368994>the climax of Amazing Spider-Man #33I like to think that this was the "ending" of that run. At least ideologically. Only the Goblin stuff needed a resolution. Even his relationship with Betty ends in that issue>>155367619For me it's Ditko Parker. Love that asshole Peter
>>155368559Here's the deal. Spiderman has been a grown damned man for 99.9% of his existence.There has never not once not ever been a "youth vs responsibility" thing in spiderman ever. It's just been a young guy with crazy ass powers dealing with responsibility and saving everyone.Where are these young spiderman struggling with responsibility because of his youth stories?It just seems like it's a bunch of fucking middle aged losers desperately wishing they were 20ish year olds and creating this fanfiction fantasy that never existed to explain their pathetic bullshit.
>>155367619Mid-'70s through mid-'80s, basically everything from Conway through DeFalco, is the definitive Spider-Man. Juggling problems as a young adult with his superhero stuff, post-Gwen.
Peter was a terrible Spiderman. Entitled, weak, boring.Miles deserves the role far more.
>>155369430Finally, someone who isn't blinded by nostalgia. Spider-Man fans love to self-insert. Just look at how, on any given day, half the threads are “MJ and Paul hate,” “Peter’s daughter,” “Is Peter a cuck,” and random hate directed at some writer. I know life isn’t easy, but don’t self-insert into shallow characters. And I say this as someone who self-inserts from time to time. I still relate to The Smiths’ songs, and I’m 28. I know the songs come from a gay hipster wallowing in self-pity, but I still relate to them.
Is there a timeline for when the titles start crossing over? I downloaded everything but only ever really read Amazing and then trades that collected stuff in order, but I've noticed with a lot of these downloads is there's no "Continued in Web of Spiderman.." at the end of an issue so I dunno whether I should read by release month or what? Like I know there it was frequent during stuff like the Clone Saga and Maximum Carnage, but what about the 70s and 80s? It's confusing because stuff like Kraven's Last Hunt spans all the titles, but other stories don't. Noticed a familiar thing with Batman once I reached Knightfall. Scans from modern re-prints so no "continued in.."
>>1553676191963 - 1995ish is good. It had its ups and downs, but feels like a continuation of the same character at least.
>>155369725They don't really crossover until Kraven's Last Hunt, and even then that (and Mad Dog Ward straight after) were a one off that wasn't repeated until the 90s kicks off proper. At most ASM will reference a story that happened in Spec and vice versa but it won't be a proper crossover.
>>155368383>>155368394>>155368408Wein's run in general is good. It's not revolutionary but the stories are generally solid or have a self-aware campiness to them (like the Ock/Hammerhead story) and his good stories are among the best. Way better than Wolfman's run which comes after him and I'd argue better than a large chunk of Conway's run too. The beginning and end of Conway's run are great but the middle is bogged down with stories about losers like Man-Wolf and Cyclone and unlike, say, Wein's Mirage story they're not fun enough to make up for it.
>>155368676It's the opposite. He's been a>textbook “blank slate” you can write anything into him.for the last two decades. >Even the parodies struggle to pin down his character.Because that's the point of Peter. He doesn't work as an archetype. The thing every Spider-Man expy has in common is being young. And that's retarded, that's not his appeal. Peter Parker was a selfish hothead who indirectly killed his uncle. And instead of being a criminal, eventually he realized that instead he would help his aunt, be a crime fighter, and somehow compensate for Ben's death. Peter's appeal is self-improvement. And doing what is right, even if we're imperfect beings. gif very related. Did you even finish the first run?
>>155367619It's Ultimate Spider-Man until Bagley leaves
>>155369891>The beginning and end of Conway's run are great but the middle is bogged downI agree but I liked the Cyclone story. Probably more than Mirage. I mean, wouldn't the spidersense make him pointless?
>>155369946Maybe it’s a problem with mainstream comic book classics. There aren’t defined story arcs; the stories are about what sells. These days, writing an origin story like Spider-Man’s brings all kinds of problems because of his uncle. The author is forced to develop the character’s central theme. Why did he neglect the criminal? Was it for the money? Or because Peter doesn’t care? But in the ’60s, that’s just how they wrote the characters. It’s not even exactly an origin story, but rather a moral tale. After all, Spider-Man’s inaction was what caused his uncle’s death. It’s interesting that FF4 had a well-developed character arc, but I feel that’s because Kirby had more say in the final product than Ditko. Kirby wasn’t the best writer, but he was attentive. “Fourth World,” for example, was the first time anyone other than Dennis O’Neal wrote a coherent narrative at DC. Until then, it was just “whatever’s going to sell this month” kind of crap.
>>155369889Sweet thanks bud
>>155370054What abuse and pain? Unlike most Spider-Man self-inserters, Peter is hooking up with hot chicks and living a comfortable life among the top 0.00001%, since he’s a superhuman who’s friends with cosmic beings and trillionaires like Tony Stark. That doesn’t strike me exactly as a life of suffering.
>>155370152>Why did he neglect the criminal?Because he was an egotistical asshole. Again, that's the point of the run. Growing up, evolving, maturing, self-improvement
>>155367907>>155368054>>155368197>>155368426>>155369670God, shut the fuck up and go dive off a building.
>>155368619I mean this sincerely in that Spider-Man is one of the biggest victims of the loss of the thought balloon. I've said it to others and in other threads but I really don't like getting rid of the thought balloon in favor of first-person narration boxes because they take the reader out of the story. The character narrating it to the reader in a box that's not connected to anything means the action becomes mere background noise. It comes off as if the character is telling you the story after the fact which causes the story to lose its punch; why should the reader care about this month's battle with Scorpion? Ignoring the "the hero's going to win of course" aspect, in the immediacy of the moment what drama or tension is there? Spidey's telling us the story, that means things are fine. And if he's telling us about Aunt May or his personal woes then who cares even more? It makes everything come off as colder and less human.Spider-Man is an incredibly internal character, that was what was so revolutionary about him. His thoughts and the way that they reinforce or run counter to what's happening on the page were an important aspect of his stories. They allow you to see him masking his anger or nervousness with quips, or show how the problems in his personal life are distracting him from his current fight, or any number of things.Look at >>155368429. Take away the thought balloon and Spider-Man just looks like an ass. The thought balloon gives more depth to the scene and because it's a balloon, not a box, it's putting the reader right there in the moment with him which makes it more impactful. Losing Peter's internal monologue and thought process strips some of the humanity, and thus the core appeal, from the character.
>>155371108I concur, whilst there is something to be said about show don't tell and keeping some characters motivations up in the air or interpretation, we have ered way too much on the other side.Look at MJ, this character is just a bizarre thoughtless Voodoo doll without agency, coherency or clear sense of herself because introspection is denied her. She just is and does whatever the writer from Slott to Wells wants her to, and they have to deny her history because so often it complicates what they want her to do.Peter's monologue in Spencer is kind of a moment that should have been learned from, but you know Lowe.
>>155368774Man, I love Peter not being a huge pussy and standing up for himself.
>>155371372Peter has been an Amoeba since Wells.He needs to be possessed with sins to show any backbone and be a strawman for audience criticisms, and then folds in on himself when returning to being an Amoeba.Remember when rage, pride and spite were part of his faults? Before the Saint Spider mascot hollowed his character, and made him less of a hero amusingly.
>>155369968Ew
