Jonathan Hickman finally telling the truth>I’ve never seen Marvel kill a line that is the most profitable line that they have at the time. Original intent was that the Ultimate line was just gonna keep going. I was going to do 24 issues and build up a Spider-Man book that somebody would come on and take overSo it's 100% fucking true that Marvel editorial killed the ultimate line because they were big-mad that it was selling better than 616 and especially Ultimate Spider-Man because Peter was with MJ and they had kids and the readers loved it, fuck all the faggots who kept parroting the "2 year plan" line, Marvel editorial can eat shit, I don't know why Hickman keeps giving them chances.
>>155750970Doesn't make sense. They purposefully make shit mainline books to piss off fans, but then get petty and end another book that makes the company money?
>>155751014If you think fuckers like Brevoort are above this pettiness, you haven't been paying attention.
>>155750970It was so fucking obvious things felt rushed into a wrap-up and the shills so blatantly doing damage control for it. I really do believe the drastic change in management recently had at least partially to do with this>b-but Camp saidCamp was trying to be as diplomatic as possible because he also was signing an exclusive with DC and still leaving doors open if necessary
>>155750970You can’t blame editorial on this one, Ultimate was garbage and Hickman is a terrible writer. He has decent ideas, but they always end up flat.
>>155750970Ok so when is Nick Lowe, Brevoort, and Wacker getting humiliated at NYCC? The panel is soon right? This is Q&A material waiting to be thrown in their face by everyone who walks up there.
>>155751175>Ok so when is Nick Lowe, Brevoort, and Wacker getting humiliated at NYCC?I thought Wacker had nothing to do with this? Nick Lowe and Brevoort however are public enemy #1
>>155750970So this is what strangling your golden goose looks like
>>155750970I really don't understand how incompetent Marvel's editorial is. They know that DC is kicking their ass right?
>>155750970>According to Hickman, Marvel's thinking changed after seeing the performance of its prestige-format books. Rather than producing successive volumes with potentially diminishing returns, the publisher saw value in creating complete 24-issue stories that could remain available as evergreen collections.How profitable can these prestige-formats be to justify cancelling your most successful line of comics?
>>155751175This weekend I believe.
>>155751444Marvel is now a Disney company. I suspect they veto anything The Mouse demands them to
>>155751271Wacker had nothing to do with this, but he still deserves any shit that he's given. He was the original BND editor and is very much in line with the Quesada/Brevoort school of thought.
>>155750970Ultimate was trash and I hate Hickman.
>>155751462It's a good cover for just being mad that ASM was getting demolished by a comic about married Spider-Man.
>>155751271He's part of the BND cabal and also asking questions like this is material that would set him off on Twitter. Might as well see if that is still the case.
>>155751444DC's books that aren't Absolute sell like absolute (heh) dog shit. Go look at the top seller lists and see where the non-Absolute books that aren't Batman or an event are. DC fucked up the continuity so much and the writers and artists on their main books are so bad that nobody buys them and arguably Absolute is cannibalizing the main line as well. Here's the Top 50 for August (most recent month we have).https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/63317/top-50-comics-august-2026Outside of Batman the first non-Absolute ongoing on the list is Barbara Gordon: Breakout at #29. Everything else are miniseries. No Superman, no Flash, no nothing. DC is pumping out so much Absolute entirely because it's the only thing they have that sells.
>>155751544It's not a cover. Marvel's been criticized for not having "evergreen" trades like DC so they saw it as a chance to have a line of them. Shortshightedness is way more believable than a conspiracy to kill a line because it was outselling a certain book. Especially because the suits would have to approve that and they're not going to do that.
>>155750970>"I've never seen Marvel kill a line that is the most profitable line that they have at the time”For reference the only book at the time of ultimate that wasn’t in the top 50 was black panther
>>155751539You are a Shill. it was great with lots of room for improvement.
>>155751462USM kept charting on the Top 20 graphic novels ComicHub chart till the Absolute line came along (and still charted on Bookscan's top 20 superhero books back in August). Going by what Hickman said about how Marvel made the decision around the time they were writing #12/13, this was probably a premature decision before they knew how well Absolute would do for DC
>>155751754>You’re a shill if you don’t like a comicAre you retarded?
>>155751271Whacker is the new Punching Bag regardless of Fault. When MJ hooks up with Flash, that will be on him. I honestly hope the MJ book gets brought up. I hope NYCC is a mess for them.
>>155751890I am a man normal intelligence. resorting to aggressive dialogue is a sign of cognitive impairment. It is you who are a retard. And shill and a retard. but i suppose I could just call you a marvel intern that sucks editorial cock. Big Toms penis sliding down your throat over and over again.
>X-Men is some bullshit that doesn't seem to take place in the new setting>Avengers is actual shit with multiple issues dedicated to literally who totally not blm protesters>USM was fun but plots were shit because Hickman insisted on fastforwarding a month each issue>Wolverine wasn't even different from mainline>BP was boring blacktivism shit that just did MCU liteIt deserved to get canned no matter what the sales numbers were.
>>155752041>USM was fun but plots were shit because Hickman insisted on fastforwarding a month each issueUSM needed improvements, it didn't need to be cancelled
>>155751444They don't care neither does dc. Now that both are owned by much much bigger companies they don't need to. Doesn't matter if the comics don't sell because all the parent company cares about is an idea farm. Why care if a comic book lost a few thousand dollars when you have movies losing 10s of millions.
>>155751462WHY NOT PUT OUT SOME OLDER SPIDERMAN AND XMEN BOOKS AS EVERGREEN COLLECTIONS THEN, YOU FUCKING ABSOLUTE HACKS!?
>>155752383The problem becomes, if the current comics don't sell and aren't good source material for movies, what's the point of continuing to publish them? Disney and Warner Bros aren't making much money off of them, especially relative to other divisions. Some suit will eventually think there are better investments.
>>155752383But they aren't even good idea farms, if that was the case you would have many more comics including non-capeshit
>>155751014Pissing the fans off is the point.
>>155751671>DC books may sell good but books that aren't DC books sell bad Okay
>>155751444Trips pls understand, between Disney money and the speculators they have had an effective licence to be retarded with no consequences for two decades.Brevoort openly says the comics are an IP-farm, he's completely checked out on the medium itself having anything to offer. But he won't leave because a few years from retirement why be a small fish in a big ocean? Better to rot large in a small pond.
>>155752546Yeah imagine showing recent comics to a group of movie screenwriters and script doctors.There comes a point where you have veered so far off the source material that it's in name only, like BND. And what's funny is comic readers are thankful you're not adapting the comics.
>>155752442TBF a lot of the good Marvel stuff you really can't translate to an evergreen trade. Like Dark Phoenix really doesn't make any sense if you don't start with Jean getting the Phoenix which is like a hundred issues prior to when shit actually gets good. The best Marvel stuff were the old done-in-ones that don't translate well to the graphic novel reading experience. I recently got all the Claremont X-Men epic collections and it gets really tiring having to reread recaps of everything I just read twenty pages ago or reminders of everyone's powers and attitudes
>>155752442Even crazier considering every time the ASM omnibuses for the early Lee/Ditko/Romita runs go out-of-print, they shoot to $500+ on the aftermarket, showing that demand for reprints of the classic material is sustained and constant.
>>155751956bro... you just resorted to aggressive dialogue...
>>155751695I mean I've been a Marvel Zombie since the early 90s and Marvel had never ever been known to not overkill something that's moderately successful for artistic merit. The only time Marvel ever really did well in the book store market was when they started collecting every six issues of the original Ultimate line. From a business standpoint it doesn't make sense to end something after four books if you could potentially keep that going for 10-15 books. We know from insider stories that the current Marvel bullpen can be really petty, we know they're really sensitive about the current state of Amazing Spider-Man so when you factor in Marvel's history of beating a winning horse till its glue, the childishness of the editors, and Ultimate Spider-Man beating the shit out of Amazing Spider-Man sales it's more realistic that the senior editors said "we don't like this, it's making us look stupid, kill it" than someone at Marvel going "yes, we could make a LOT more money off this imprint but think of the ARTISTIC MERIT!"
>>155752909jui jitsu mother fucker! look it up!
>>155753010You are genuinely retarded and need to go back to hanging out with the rest of the marriage loons on r/spiderman if you think Marvel intentionally killed Ultimate out of seething that it was outselling ASM and is now lying about the reasons.>insider storiesActual stories or Insiderschizo's bullshit fake stories on /co/?
Why does Disney even bother at this point. What stories are they creating Disney is going to use. MCU just makes shit up anyway. One frozen movie probably makes more money than marvel in a year.
The sight of this makes marvel editors seethe.
>>155753139Anon, if you genuinely think Marvel killed their only successful thing out of 'artistic merit' you're the retard here.
>>155753139>Actual stories or Insiderschizo's bullshit fake stories on /co/?There's a few verifiable things>Spencer came within a tit hair of undoing OMD, the run following Spencer's does the worst case of character assassination on Mary Jane that comics has ever seen>Slott acknowledged that Spencer's plan was to undo OMD>reports from con Q&As where Nick Lowe gets visibly frustrated with the questions being asked by fans
>>155753174As a park employee, i hope they fire everyone at Marvel comics so Disney can give me a raise and better healthcare.
>>155753265Oh, forgot to add>Brevoort would go on social media and claim that Ultimate Spider-Man wasn't as successful as Amazing and even if it was it wasn't because Peter and Mary Jane were married with a family it was because such a big name like Jonathan Hickman was writing the book, despite the fact that Hickman's GODS was a massive flop
>>155753174They would be better off adapting more popular and well-known Marvel Rivals stories, we just had QIB because of Rivals and it was a comparative mess because the Marvel Method at present is taking aim at your foot with a shotgun.>>155753265Next to Joe Q I don't know an editor whose relationship has deteriorated with the audience to the point they avoid, dread and cut-short all Q&A's.>>155753283I hope they do magicman, outsource the licence to China and give money to Park anon here.
>>155753328Brevoort being wrong is like a universal law, and the broken clock solely being Gwen needing to stay dead as otherwise you've made ASM #400 out of the Night Gwen Stacy Died. The Gwenfag craves a perfect angel on a mantlepiece tragedy more than romance longevity.Look at that fiasco with the QR code endings.
>>155750970Will Marvel editorial get better or worse mow that they're in La La Land and got rid of Akira Yoshida?
Even if you didn’t like ultimate them shutting the line down even though it was selling well and around the time they were famously ending books at ten issues was a real retarded move
>>155753445Eh, I really don't think anything's going to change since they're apparently importing guys like Brevoort and Lowe who needed to go at least ten years ago. This was an opportunity for a fresh start but they imported the cancer into the new body
>>155753445At present none of the desperately needed staff changes and chance for new blood transfusion has materialised, Wacker is a BND alumni so looks like more managed decline for a couple of years.All that said, simple process of age might save or cause change at least, everyone in BND bar Lowe is approaching retirement age and have been out of anything to offer for a long long long time. I predict they will be 'better' a decade from now when the dust settles and the cronyism that keeps BND afloat finally gets broken. Or the licence is shipped to China.
>>155753328And he tried to do the stupid claim that Peter married to Mary Jane is comparable to Martha Wayne being alive in Absolute, when there's a way more obvious comparison in USM (Uncle Ben being alive)
>>155753174Sexual favors from the folks at Marvel Comics
>>155753386Disney could also do animated shows for Spider-Man that are under 40 minutes or something like that. i'm surprised YFNSP is the only thing going on.
>>155753565IIRC Disney didn't expect so many people to take the offer so I suspect they may find ways to push out people
>>155753576With false equivalences like this, one doesn't wonder why the BND braintrust couldn't light a bulb.
>>155753614It would be pretty funny to see Disney fire niggas like Brevoort after making him uproot his whole life to move to California
>>155753614>people uproot their lives only for Disney to fire them within a year without the cushionVery possible, but not like these gnarled hands wouldn't have seen it coming.
>>155753445It depends entirely on if Disney is putting an adult in charge and they're just using Wacker for his industry knowledge while being functionally a puppet EIC. If someone is forcing them to stop being shitheads, maybe things change. I doubt that's actually the case, but it's nice to imagine situations where the future isn't bleak.
>>155753576I remember when he replied that MJ and Paul were the most sexually active couple in Marvel on Gail Simone's thread, fast forward a year later and Gail has the Punisher cucking Paul out of fucking Power Girl in a crossover.
>>155750970>I’ve never seen Marvel kill a line that is the most profitable line that they have at the time.This has happened a few times.I swear they've done it every time Spider-Man is involved. They out right end it or sabotage it.
>>155753732Eh, Marvel's retarded enough on its own even without the ASM shitshow
>>155753699>he replied that MJ and Paul were the most sexually active couple in MarvelThat motherfucker really didn’t mature past the age of 8 did he?
>>155753614I figured it was a way for Disney to get rid of people without having to pay out a severance or something. Corporations are really fucking retarded.
>>155753202Marvel suits want evergreen trades like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns and wonder why Marvel doesn't have them. Marvel sees Ultimate is selling well and gets the bright idea that if they end it then they have a line of books that fit the evergreen need. Not that they ACTUALLY do but they THINK they do. Why attribute conspiracy to simple idiocy?
>>155753186Sex with May ToT
>>155753826You read the average letter responses from the bullpen.These are primordial midwits, who have whipped a antagonistic relationship with the audience that Stan and the like never did because that's absurd.
>>155753445they need to clean house to have any real shot at change
>>155753445Akira Yoshida-sama is now in Japan expanding Marvel's asian presence
>>155753876I wonder what shit Stan would've said if he was alive long enough to see the Wells run.
>>155753852They're doing it so that Marvel is even more under their thumb for synergistic purposes nothing more. Wacker's been a TV guy as long as he was an editor for comics and the upper brass got replaced by Feige's sycophants.
There is no turnover in this office.The same barrel of writers and editors forever being used from two decades ago solely because going to outside help they rock the goddawful mandate nobody wants, but they want to take to their graves.
>>155753891Stan made his bones on romance comics, so god knows what he would have made of Divorced Man Energy and think less of women the comic run.
>>155753918Dude would've croaked the second he learns about the story.
>>155753856>Marvel suits want evergreen trades like Watchmen and Dark Knight ReturnsBut if the “evergreen trades” are already four volumes long each why not make them ten volumes each like Sandman or Preacher?
>>155750970No shit.
>>155753980I just said they're dumb.
>>155750970i don't get it, comics are dirt cheap to produce compared to movies or even cartoon shows.I didn't realize that even comicbooks could fall victim to office politics like hollywood.
>>155753944Supposedly a ASM alumni (I suspect JMS) wrote a letter when he caught wind of what was going to happen imploring them not to and that it would end in tears.But why listen to popular veterans? Give the bitter and recently divorced man a platform to badmouth his ex-wife and her non-existant partner through expies.
>>155750970When I read about how stupid Marvel leadership is it makes me not want to take a chance on any of their books. And DC suddenly got all their shit together and their fans are happy. Man, fuck Marvel.
>>155754015>I didn't realize that even comicbooks could fall victim to office politics like hollywood.They're even more susceptible to it. While making less money.
>>155754015Comicbook history is nothing but playground insults, copyright nuances and office politics.>>155754043Removing Didio was like seeing a fever break for DC, suddenly life and health returns to the body when the artificial blockage at the top preventing the growth below popped.It would give hope for Marvel, if they weren't a Gordian Knot of Didio's.
>>155754050yea, but with hollywood at least they have the excuse that making movies even indie ones requires alot of time and resource, thus being vulnerable to office politics.comics don't have that excuse.
>>155750970It's better they killed it anyway. The pacing was all over the place from the start. The shitty soapbox propaganda commentary with "The Red Skulls" & "two spirit" Hawkeye cemented it needing to die.
>>155754043Come home anon.Prime gets to badmouth bullshit, which is more than can be said for the meta-pool characters who are 'safe' fourth wall breaking.
>>155754106I hope with the relaunch they dispense with the godawful one month timeskip gimmick, it didn't serve a purpose beyond killing good moments in the crib and rushing the things that needed more than one issue.
Kill Lowe
>>155750970>>155751014Do we know that this really made money?
Relaunch the fucker.Put 616 in the grave, let Mephisto cement his win and take Peter and MJ's screaming souls to hell.
>>155754076Yeah it's crazy how a change in leadership can suddenly revive what everybody thought was steps away from dying. People were seriously talking like DC might be about to stop publishing altogether and license their characters to Image. Now they're eating Marvel's lunch.
>>155754224Too bad Disney doesn't want to try this since they're still keeping actual retards like Lowe on.
>>155754076>a Gordian Knot of DidiosSo the solution is a sword?
>>155752779>a group of movie screenwriters and script doctorsThose are also people that are terrible at their jobs.
>>155754106It would have been easier to get rid of the each-issue-is-a-month gimmick than to launch a highly successful new line.
>>155754272Sure, but compared to the BND cabal it's The Inklings. Look at the adaptation of BND which acknowledged what Peter lost and why, and compare it to the frathouse antics and celebration of comic BND.
>>155750970MARVEL IS RETARDED! MIDNIGHTS TO FLOP!
>>155754271A mass firing and hiring of people two decades younger and with an existing audience online would be the Alexander solution yes.
>>155751014Money is a concern for them
>>155751014>They purposefully make shit mainline books to piss off fans, but then get petty and end another book that makes the company money?they're not making them "purposefully shit"They think they know better than you. >We know Spider Man better than you. We know how to make better Spider Man comics than you. We know what the audience wants out of Spider Man comics more than you. Oh you think I'm wrong, look at our sales compared to the Distinguished Competition ; )>keep complaining all you want, you'll still keep buying em ; )And then Hickman's married-to-MJ outsells a slumping ASM, Marvel's flagship book. It proves them wrong and it makes them look bad. All they have to show professionally is a comic that gets bad reviews and sells worse -- so why would they get to keep their job?
>>155754346Yeah seeing Slott and Brevoort having to explain away USM's runaway success because having to justify leaving money on the table all those years was funny.Yes Brevoort, it turns out you can in fact just turn a faucet and print money from a proven audience, who knew?
>>155754129>>155754302Yes that gimmick also didn't do them any favors.
>>155752354according to Hickman, his plan was to set up stuff all the way to issue #24 and then hand it off to another writer.The whole "one year countdown" was his plan for a big crossover event and giving new writers chances to take the stories in new directions.
>>155753445they will be worse in a different waythese divorced man-children with tyrant control of marvel will be fired and replaced with corporate Los Angeles Disney-ass kissing hacks who don't care about comics and are just trying to leverage their career working for the "MCU" brand.Think of Vince McMahon's WWE vs TKO's WWEOne is bad and its because of the specific control freaks in charge. The other is bad bc its soulless vaporware from zionists,
>>155753864I wanted you to rope when the book was being released and I want you to rope now
>>155754446>zionistJust say Jews nigga
>>155752442>WHY NOT PUT OUT SOME OLDER SPIDERMAN AND XMEN BOOKS AS EVERGREEN COLLECTIONS THEN, YOU FUCKING ABSOLUTE HACKS!?Modern Marvel only recognizes its history in the broadest sense for marketing purposes.Modern Marvel and the editors in charge do not want to prop up and praise anything from the pre-Joe Quesada years.Sure they'll give credit to "Stan Lee and Jack Kirby" in the most obligational sense... but modern Marvel is never going to praise the Jim Shooter era. they're never going to prop up acclaimed cult runs like Steve Gerber or Priest or Keith Giffen or Peter David or Bill Mantlo. fuck they have Claremont locked down in an exclusive and then keep him in the basement writing retro nostalgia x-men minis. They don't actually want any writers reaching a level of Alan Moore-like prestige. The characters are bigger then the artists, the brand is bigger then the people. >>155754371Brevoort, Lowe, Wacker, Alonso, Slott, Bendis ... all these guys achieved massive success in the Joe Quesada years -- and thats when Disney bough them and thats when the movies hit. all of those guys want to be seen as "essential" to Marvel's success. To them, Marvel was the "dark ages" until they came along. And its because of them -- and only them -- that Marvel became what it is today. They're not going to keep decades of comics in print that may disprove that belief
>>155754566The truth is that were they making the creative directions when ASM was first starting Spider-Man would have long flamed out.They are the embodiment of the phrase standing on shoulders of giants.
>>155754566>but modern Marvel is never going to praise the Jim Shooter eraIs this board ever going to admit that a LOT of the problems comics have these days stem from Shooter’s reign?
>>155754656you can trace problems to it's founding that's just how history works the fact remains the Shooter era was one of it's best
>>155754566>Modern Marvel and the editors in charge do not want to prop up and praise anything from the pre-Joe Quesada years.Anon, I hate what Marvel’s been doing since Covid but the reason most of the trades Marvel continuously keep in print is from the Quesada era is Marvel pre-Quesada were written in a long-term format where threads from a decade ago with a different creative team pay off. Future Imperfect is one of my favorite comics of all time but even that relies on a lot of knowledge of what was going on in Hulk comics at that time. Like can you think of any Spider-Man arc outside of Kraven’s Last Hunt that could be a satisfying done-in-one trade like Dark Knight or Watchmen can? And another issue which isn’t going to make me popular here but the majority of Marvel books pre-Quesada were written in a hokey, overly-verbose manner that kids today would be turned off by. Like read Howard Mackie’s last issue of Amazing Spider-Man and then JMS’s first. It’s night and day.
>>155753186may a cute!!!
>>155754712Okay but Shooter’s responsible for>Didio-level editorial meddling>line-wide crossovers>character resurrections>expanding the X-lineAnd he wanted to 86 the Marvel Universe and replace it with his New Universe. There was good stuff Shooter did but he wasn’t a flawless god like this board pretends because he whipped those dirty hippies into shape
>>155753888They are gonna get raped if the Shogun or any retard like Lowe and Brevoort tried their usual tactics of making people mad, because the asian market will not tolerate any of that bullshit if they tried to pull something like OMD or Secret Empire on them.
>>155754807>editorial meddlingMostly good, some bad>SW2Yeah that sucked. >resurrectionsYeah Jean and who else?>x-lineYeah they were doing gangbusters.
>>155754837I'm imagining them trying to pull this shit with the Love and Deepspace crowd.
>>155753445Move Spider-Man to Los Angeles, biggest betrayal since the Dodgers
>>155754807>>155754850>editorial meddlingI've been reading 'Marvel Comics: The Untold Story', they kind of needed the micromanaging at the time. What Shooter was walking into was all the writers were editing other writers' books and vice-versa, and all of them basically had an unspoken agreement to be hands off with each other, so there was absolutely nobody willing to put their foot down and tell certain writers (like Don McGregor and Steve Gerber) to knock it off, they were just printing whatever kind of madness they were feeling in the moment. It made for fun stuff when it was a book like Howard the Duck, but books like Avengers would be page after page sometimes of total nonsense just because a writer was late on a deadline, and then none of the editors of Avengers wanted their writing in their books to get messed with, it was insane.
>>155750970Marvel editorial needs to be wiped out
>>155755068It's just a cabal of Didio's that desperately need to be moved on.You had two decades to make something out of the mess you made, you failed because you refused to learn. Accept being a nadir in comic book history.
>kill the profitable thing most people like>promote dogshit only cucks likeI would say this is why manga is winning but jump is doing the same thing now
>>155750970The comics division of marvel is a rounding error for the disney company, I believe whole heartedly that they would cancel popular books for larger brand synergy, especially since they were planning on moving the entire operation to california to be closer to the movie division.
>>155755186>The comics division of marvel is a rounding errorIt wouldnt be if they bothered putting good stuff out
>>155755186>>155755210What's the point of an IP farm if there is nothing of worth that can be adapted?
>>155754755Actually Future Imperfect was originally set up as a stand alone 30th anniversary work for the Hulk not important to the main Hulk line It was shockingly popular though with fans, to the point that PAD has to reverse course and make it canon. Though doing so by having the set up to the story take place a year after it was published, a year and a half after it originally came out
>>155755016Speaking of Avengers was the Claremont issue with Carol yelling at everyone about that guy raping her under Shooter?
>>155751044>Brevoort almost got fired when Gerber did his crossover with Savage Dragon and Destroyer Duck to take back HowardPity.....
>>155755151The main problems of Weekly Shonen Jump right now is i'm not even joking is nepotism and not axing manga quickly. All other jump magazines are doing better than the main one because they have not big hitter outside of One Piece. Marvel is filled with retard at higher level and need to be culled.
>>155755335Yep.Shooter famously apologized, whilst saying he did not write the thing he did take accountability this thing came under his watch. Then gave Claremont within a year an invitation to go scorched earth.Wish we could have had such course correction and integrity with Wells and Dead Language, but you know.
>>155755475I'm surprised there hasn't been enough buzz about the fact that Paul essentially manipulated MJ into sleeping with him
>>155755610Oh they will let ASM burn before they admit they gave Avengers #200 a sequel. Despite how from issue one of MJ calling Peter from a closet like she did hiding from her abusive father, they were raising red flags even unwittingly about the relationship.This entire era needs to be given its own Shed treatment.
>>155755641Simple. NYCC is coming up. If every tumblrina SJW walks up to them and calls it rape, in this instance, they will ij fact be correct and then I'll fly in from my Fortnite battle bus, parachuting into the venue and run inside to then say that "ok it's rape but let's retcon it so that the rape never happened." Kek. Then just undo OMD and disassembled.
>>155755710>what did Rabin mean when he said those false children were chains on her mind?>why did MJ's attitude to Paul change when they suddenly appear?>why did MJ's attitude to Peter change when they went away?Do it.
>>155755016Shit like this joke was him shitting on superhero comics I take it and acting like he was above it.Anyway, yeah, a workplace needs an authority. Time and again, as a zoomer, I have encountered faggots and women who can never step up. I had a capstone group for a project and it took me to just say, "alright who is doing what?" and reminding people each meeting, and stuff would get done. It's that simple. Believe me or not.
>>155754146Different Ultimate.
>>155755754I wish. Can't afford a flight to NYC.
>>155755016This is kino though?
>>155755641To be fair, while even normies know about (and hate) Paul, they don't know about the fact that Paul didn't tell MJ about the time dilation
>>155750970Man, I fucking hate Marvel comics editorial
>>155755851Not even the editors nor Ewing remembered.I swear Paul is an example of them not actually reading the finished product they ship out, you compare what they say in letters and interviews and what actually gets printed and there's a big chasm that's twice the mess as the Chasm arc. See Ewings terrible apologetics in the park that tried to sweep and strawman the critics of the last five years, without actually honestly addressing why the negligent tech bro who took advantage of the vulnerable and denied all accountability beyond big talk was radiation for characters to be killed in proximity to.
>>155755241To make a better case for rebooting the whole thing
>>155755914They're trying to do the Paul Feig and Hollywood response to criticism before recent years tactic. If they go out and strawman people, they're banking on their status as being within the industry as giving them authority and enough of a voice on the internet to have a majority of people side with them who are ignorant. But because the internet is now dictating everything, people realized you have to dig to reach the truth they want and that involves a deeper level of scrutiny that 00's people weren't willing to do. So a blanket characterization of a whole group is too blunt of a tactic now. Ewing, Lowe, etc. making up shit and taking those nonsensical opinions/views of theirs isn't gonna work.
>>155756128Their letters get roundly mocked around the clock, it's such a cloistered bubble afraid of their own audience. It's the end result of enrage to engage, operating a business behind a mesh like a bad neighborhood.
>>155755610I think fans just want all that shit to go away and to hit the reset button back to pre-Civil War.
>>155755016>I've been reading 'Marvel Comics: The Untold Story'You need to take that book with a huge grain of salt because Howe basically turns it into the Gary Groth version of Marvel's history and his sources include a book Marvel themselves put out in the early '90s that give a weird and apocryphal version of their history including the story that Goodman somehow managed to bamboozle DC with the price increase.Also funny that you bring up Shooter because Howe's Grothite views mean that the book is incredibly one-sided in its view of him.
>>155756213It's very hard to overlook something that lasted twice as long as the Clone Saga, Gwen being alive and keeps getting referenced in current events.It's not like Sins Past which was memoryholed until Mephisto took one for the team, this was several runs worth of sustained Scipio salting Carthage.
>>155756265I guess they thought that since comics are a dying medium anyway (at least from their perspective), might as well spite the people reading them for not accepting our 'creative vision'.
>>155756320It's dying on their side, it's pretty freakin' sweet over on their multiple competitors.
>>155756265Sins Past gets more attention because it was the lowest point of a generally well-received run. That gives it more gravity than it deserves, but there's no real desire to toss the baby with the bathwater. It's still been mostly disregarded by everyone as a mistake. Gwen had also been dead for 30 years, so no real harm done.Meanwhile, we're currently in a 20 year streak of almost nothing but shit. The ire is pointed at the editors and writers. Fans would gladly sacrifice it all for the previous status quo. It's not at all the same. This is just one more turd in a mountain of shit. We would all be better off burying the whole thing than spending another minute adding to it.
>>155756463If they can retcon Peter and MJ's marriage they can retcon everything since OMD. They won't do it of course, but the precedent's already there.
>>155756463They have had twenty years to make their bones and prove their mandate was the right thing. The same people are in charge and seemed determined to die at their desk lest they live to see their careers biggest decision get undone to wild acclaim and celebration.
>>155754346>>155750970>keep complaining all you want, you'll still keep buying em ; )this is true, though. it's never going to change unless you mental retards stop buying, reading, talking, or even thinking about these comics.
>>155756528Talking means nothing, I don't know about you anons but I haven't ever felt compelled to go buy a comic after shitposting about its many problems.Controversy sells doesn't work when the entire issue can be read on X, the only thing that ships comics organically without decades of collectors with sunk cost fallacy is love. There is little love lost in modern ASM, and they certainly don't bring in new readers.
>>155756555>Talking means nothinglmao this board really is full of actual retards
>>155756555>giving them metrics in which to measure the impact of their shitty comics actually doesn't help themDo you actually work for Marvel or are you just stupid?
>>155756567>>155756587>muh engagement equals salesYeah give Morbius a third theatrical release, this time for sure
>>155756528>assumes /co/ is the board that goes out and buys this shitErm....Slott, sweetie? It's time to put on the C-pap and go to sleep.
>>155756619They want us to stop bullying them, so they want to frame shitposting about the comics mean they win.
>>155751175>>155751463Isn't this when the Perch leak is supposed to be confirmed or debunked? Marvel is still fucked because undoing OMD won't change that they blew #1000 on Peter's secret evil cousin, and won't change how desperate and creatively bankrupt the Midnight universe is.
>>155756180I wish there was a way to short circuit Nick Lowe or his a.i. letter generator to constantly message the n-word and go "oops I didn't mean to do that" like that one black guy who did it on his phone that gets posted on /v/ sometimes.
>>155751014>>155750970It is because they hated the Spider-Man-Mary-Jane Marriage.
>>155756631>Isn't this when the Perch leak is supposed to be confirmed or debunked?Yep.
>>155756631Yeah they've been fucked for a long time. The point now is to reclaim what is ours. I think every comic fan deserves this after so much shit gone through the years.
>>155756631And DC is about to hit gold because the comics are fully ignoring DCU now, unlike marvel who will do it thanks to feige and yidsney.
>>155751544>>155756660>>155751014Amazing Spider-Man #1000 being 90% MUH GWEN explains Marvel editorial so much.
>>155756688>Peter in a retirement home post being married and having children>still apparently talking about Gwen Stacy in his sleepMUH GWEEEEEEEENNo seriously, what's wrong with editorial?Why are they so hung up on someone who only developed a character retrospectively post-death? Madonna/Whore syndrome?
>>155756431>last words reply autismCalm down Mephisto worshipper.
>>155756723>Why are they so hung up on someone who only developed a character retrospectively post-death?same reason you care so much about MJ it's who they grew up with the fact is most people's opinion's are media are almost entirely driven by nostalgia
>>155756748MJ actually had a solid forty year character prior to OMD making MJ and Peter flanderized shells of themselves.
>>155756734Kek. So you care about izzat enough to bring this over to another thread? Couldn't be me.
>>155756723They are insane. Also Americans have an obsession with blonde women.
>>155750970This is actually very normal. You see it all the time in network animation.New execs come in, find something that previous execs were passionate about and helped create, kill it out of jealousy, force an entirely new direction just so it has their fingerprints on it.Repeat.
>>155756723Gene Stacy is legit the Jesus Christ of Marvel with how much Marvel editorial worships her.
>>155756748They grew up, she died, and none of them, including Brevoort or Quesadilla themselves have gone on any expanded essay describing why Gwen is a good character. It's because she is two dimensional and boring.
>>155756767>izzatSo you acknowledge that the NYC mayor when Marvel relocates to CalifornIa is a pajeet now, kamala voter?
>>155756789Strange way of saying Mar-Vell
>>155756748More people probably "grew up" with that mutant girl from the Marvel Adventures series than Gwen tbqh.
Give it to Tobin. He's written the best modern Spider-Man.His goddamn highschool Peter is written with more emotional maturity than ASM's forever neverThirty.
>>155756838Chat's also more of a character than Gwen Stacy.Certainly more supportive than Gwen ever was.
We've been in this muck approaching the Shah of Iran's time in incarceration.
>>155754307The BND movie is also terrible.
>>155756723I blame Spider-Man Blue and Marvels for turning Gwen Stacy into a saint and causing Jews and Mexicans to fall in love with her.
>>155756968Don't forget Polacks
>>155756813How does that relate to me implying you're Indian?
>>155750970I don't know why but I always thought, from before nultimate was released, that it was temporary. Like that was the whole point, what with the Maker countdown and all. I feel like both writers and fans forgot about that part and got real invested.
>>155750970Marvel comics would rather kill an entire universe than allow a Spider-Man married to Mary Jane outsell Amazing Spider-Man.
>>155750970Makes me sad that Marvel is protected by Disney from going bankrupt like they did in the 90s.
>>155757103Because I don't vote for Kamala unlike you.
>>155757150>>155757103You two should just meet in the middle of Delhi and fight it out
>>155757183Calm down kamala voter.
>>155756631>Isn't this when the Perch leak is supposed to be confirmed or debunked?QRD?
>>155757145They are insulated from their own consequences, it's like being a government office of the unelected. Just sit and collect the checks, who gives a fuck?
>>155757298He implied that Marvel was going to announce something related to MJ that he thinks would make a lot of Spider-Man fans happy, and implies that it was 'going to take a while'.
>>155750970Who cares? This shit sucked like 98 percent of Marvel slop
>>155751956>normal intelligence >can't comprehend these English language somehow
>>155754346>>They think they know better than you.I mean, they might know more about spider-man than me, but they don't seem to understand the core at all.It's like someone thinking they're tech savvy because they can manage their apps on their phone.
>>155757371MJ needs major character work and introspection, if not a full retcon of previous arcs to be a coherent character again and palatable to a very much irritated audience.Of course why do that when you can just pretend nothing has happened and throw them together?It's meaningless until you have staff change, this lot can't write romance for shit.
>>155757440They flat out can't write for shit in general.
ADDRESS ME
It's there actually going to be a q and a?
>>155757992It will be screen to shit, nobody wants another Blizzard honest moment of fan outrage voiced.
Did I miss Rich’s top ten comic sales for last week? I was really curious what retailers were gonna say about Amazing 1000’s reaction.
I miss the Ultimate X-Men...
>>155752442What evergreen collections, anon?>MUH FIRST ISSUESThose are not evergreen.
>>155758072>screen to shitNo way. There's gotta be one guy who lies and makes his way in.
>>155750970>According to Hickman, Marvel's thinking changed after seeing the performance of its prestige-format books. Rather than producing successive volumes with potentially diminishing returns, the publisher saw value in creating complete 24-issue stories that could remain available as evergreen collections.No wonder marvel doesn’t have evergreen trades like DC, they’re fucking stupid.The overwhelming majority of evergreen trades are pre-planned to be around that length, and if they aren’t that, they’re extremely popular runs that go on and on due to how well they sold in floppies and/or trades until the writer feels like they’re done.Why didn’t marvel just tell them from the get go to plan for 24 issues? Most of the last arcs were a fucking mess due to the writers having to unsatisfactorily wrap up stuff.
>>155758961One guy will be dismissed. It needs to be a large group of people.
>>155751462So Midnight is pretty much confirmed for not lasting more than 24ish issues then unless it sells better than Absolute trades lmao. Hopefully they actually TOLD the writers this time from the get go instead of at issue 12 like nu Ultimate.
>>155750970Wait, you wanted more of the series that:>Made Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch into incest freaks>Blob bite Wasp in half, and then Pym bit Blob's head off.>Wolverine, in Spider-Man's body, fucked underaged women???
>>155759094Agreed. We gotta form a wall of /a/nons, fa/tg/uys, /v/irgins, /m/en, and /co/mrades by holding hands, singing protest songs/slogans, write 1000 Tumblr-blogs, call mainstream media outlets, and burn an effigy of Lowe in the middle of the con floor, JK btw. Anyway, I think last NYCC or the one before that, it was several people who asked them and they got more and more disturbed until Brevoort blew up and asked one of them when they started reading and the guy said he was reading BND as it came out as a teen and he still liked the pre-OMD stuff better.
>>155752442A lot of their popular stories requires a lot of build up due to taking place in the middle of a popular run. They could just throw a trade of it out and it would technically be a good read but readers picking it up for the first time would be missing a lot of context.Ie compare Dark Phoenix to Hush. Hush requires basically no context because Loeb explains all the supporting cast and villains due to the story specifically being made for an evergreen trades. Dark Phoenix however is missing so much context and character nuances if you read it by itself and have never read anything prior to it.The real question is why doesn’t marvel try harder to make one off series? They’d probably have better luck making a Black Label esque imprint where they push and push the concept of prestige and make a bunch of miniseries with popular writers.
>>155759174They seem to be under the impression the young comic book readers are on their side, and that they haven't binged the good arcs recommended them and can't get anymore of due to to their nonsense.I'm in my twenties, it's not nostalgia when I read old arcs and compare it to modern BND slop and see a stark difference in quality. One of these cared a lot more for the character and one a lot more for gimmicks in lieu of characters.
>>155759174It wasn't Brevoort, it was Cebulski
>>155759214>I'm in my twenties, it's not nostalgia when I read old arcs and compare it to modern BND slop and see a stark difference in quality. One of these cared a lot more for the character and one a lot more for gimmicks in lieu of characters.The huge difference, which is the main problem for Marvel whenever the books start to suck, is the difference between stories where the choices the protagonists make is what steers the narrative, versus shit like OMD/BND where the protagonists' choices aren't steering the story and it's outcome, and everything is basically fate because of editorial mandating the direction of the stories/books, it makes for terrible writing and a terrible reading experience regardless of the medium, and Marvel is guilty of this to the extreme at the moment.
>>155759263The problem is they took out a load bearing wall and have done nothing to justify the decision, so we have a gaping hole letting the rain in and they call it a skylight.
>>155756792Unironically Brevoort who let his childhood nostalgia dictate all his decisions and he is a manchild was against reviving Gwen. He rightfully told Quesada that he was only reviving her for nostalgia rather than good storytelling.
>>155759089>The overwhelming majority of evergreen trades are pre-planned to be around that lengthNo, they’re short mini-series or specific storylines. They are not “pre-planned”.It’s also kinda hilarious to see all this seething that Ultimate line ended purposefully instead of running forever when /co/ won’t fucking stop whining that comics need definite endings. Well here you had a story with a very clear end point: when the Maker returns and gets taken down. But suddenly you babies are livid that there aren’t seven Ultimate ongoing books that will run for multiple years without any end in sight.
>>155759332The people complaining about no definite endings are all the tourists that claim they love manga. They're not the same people as the ones who got upset about this.
>>155759329One could also argue Gwen would be treated godawfully under this regime, it's not a ingredients thing but a problem with the cooks of the last two decades.If you have a ship you like or a plot you want explored, the last thing you want is this Braintrust to be the ones exploring it. Look at poor Feliciafags having to eat whatever the hell it was Wells served them.
>>155750970and yet you still came crawling back, Hackman. Zero respect for you and Marvel.
>>155751175It would almost be better if no one even bothered showing up
>>155759332The Maker is still alive and taken as a hostage by Doom 6160 isn't he?
>>155759214Because they are out of touch with their own readerbase for most of the franchises they own. They believe the younger readers aren't going to look up old stuff and don't see the difference of quality in general. Like i have a pal who bought Brand New Day comic after watching the new Spider-Man film and was baffled on how they made Peter into some womanizer and going to parties, i have to told him that this was the vision of Marvel editorial for Peter and this was after he sold his marriage to the Marvel's version of the devil, his reaction was nothing but pure disgust and confusion.
>>155759361If you want my personal take on that, it's that they would have OG Gwen marry Peter because according to them she is the "true love" of Peter because that office is filled with Jackals. Also we know OG Gwen would get treated badly because her spider variant got fucked by the editorial due Spiderverse and the kid show synergy.
>>155759332>they aren’t pre planned to be a specific length>they’re mini seriesAre you stupid?
>>155759425>one more day leaves the audience disgusted and baffled>open with the fucking party and Peter getting snogged by a random as MJ is effectively escorted out the buildingYou just know from this tonedeaf start we were in for a new dark age.Someone do a little dark age edit for all the biggest retard moments of BND through the years.
>>155759443>most accurate editorial avatar is mephisto and their motivations most closely align with the JackalsWhat the fuck is wrong with this office.
>>155759443They wont reunite Gwen with Peter, remember these are the same inbred retards that would rather make Gwen be a baby mama to Norman Osborn of all people as long as Peter is single
IP expands into video games, MJ remains the main love interest. Ip expands into films 3 out 4 MJ is the main love interest with the other about to introduce her. IP expands into comics outside 616, USM 1.0 and USM 2.0 both have MJ as the main love interest. Mj is always the main love interest. In current 616, they demand we accept her with other men and will even hook her up with flash to antagonize you.
>>155750970Everyone noticed. Turns out the real time stuff had nothing to do with the rushed second parts.
>>155759583The comics are the retarded out of step rump state of the IP.They don't make the money. They don't choose the direction. They do nothing but hold what's effectively an artifact office that's unable to be more because they have tied their mandate to the mast. Like an old war ship that's turned into a forever docked run-down family restaurent.
>>155759613No, that was just the writing being bad.
>>155759632Nah, it was obvious they had long term plans they had to cut short.
>>155751705> top 50Not even shooting for 10, huh?
>>155759639Sure, but the writing was still bad.
>>155759640Daddy Comics was hogging those spots.
I still remember all of the cope back then.Like, Will Moss was going around saying "Ultimates will be special if it had a definitive end". Then they put a to be continued in the last book kek.Hell, I'll say that Ult Wolverine's whole purpose was to kill most of the X-men so that nobody else can use them.
>>155758637You're going to claim that when one of the most famous and consistently bought TBP is Batman: Year One? Also, obviously Kraven's Last Hunt since you all go on and on and on about it.And why wouldn't you do Old Man Logan when it was adapted into perhaps the most famous Marvel movie and is their shameless rip off of Dark Knight Returns (the other most famous TPB of all time)
>>155759195You could also do something like Tales of the Demon Head where you just collect the first like ten issues featuring a particular villain. Doctor Octopus would be a great example for this.
>>155756723>Why are they so hung up on someone who only developed a character retrospectively post-death?But she had a personality. The problem is that the saintification of Gwen pretty much made her an object of worship rather than a character.That's right, the editorial are objectifying Gwen, just like Miles Warren.
>>155752779>Yeah imagine showing old comics to a group of movie screenwriters and script doctors.What’s the difference.
>>155759195>The real question is why doesn’t marvel try harder to make one off series? They’d probably have better luck making a Black Label esque imprint where they push and push the concept of prestige and make a bunch of miniseries with popular writers.Fucking this. Marvel is fucking retarded.I want Midnight universe to be good but I think the only thing I learned from Absolute was variants are king.
>Look up some comic book history>Learn that Marvel staff was divided when the marriage between MJ and Peter happened because some writers didn't mind the idea of Peter being married but they didn't MJ to be his wifeSpider-Man shipping wars must be extremely serious inside of Marvel offices, because there must be a bloodshed of a battlefield if they are asked who should be Peter's wife or girlfriend.
>>155759323Pretty good summation
>>155759706And the winning side got the pyrrhic victory of having 'won' nowhere but the mainline ongoing for comics, and the year by year failure to justify your decision making it clear it's going to be something gone the moment you are.
>>155759696Writing credit.
>>155759722I feel Nick Spencer revealing that Mephisto wanted Mayday gone was a final fuck you to Marvel.Like, he basically confirmed the present Spider-man is headed to a bad ending.
>>155759751MJ and Peter have effectively lost their souls due to the deal, regardless of whatever Mephisto says he basically has them. Hell if OMIT is canon then MJ didn't even give herself the same 'immunity' to being messed with she gave Peter, assuming he would even honour that.Look at Peters life right now. There is NOTHING outside the mask, and he doesn't even get respect within it. He's a shell. MJ is a shell. These are shell characters.
>>155759695Didn't the same people turn her into a fuck puppet for norman osborne. Sins was only retconed last minute because spencer attempted to retcon omd. Im sure they would have kept it around otherwise. Now gwen is a fuck puppet for miles.
>>155759751Wasn't mayday the first child and annie the second the was lost due to omd
>>155751462It's attempting long term profit while sacrificing short term gain.DC has (or at least HAD, before AT&T fired the guy responsible for shilling their trades to bookstores) at least two dozen books that consistently sold at least 10k copies every year to bookstores. eg Watchmen, Sandman, Court of Owls, TDKR, Black Mirror, various Earth One OGNs, etc. And that's not getting into how various collections of Saga, The Walking Dead, and Invincible basically smashed marvel AND DC's trades.A run will eventually end and/or stop selling in floppies no matter how critically acclaimed it is so you want it to continue selling in trades for as long as possible. Problem for marvel is they were severely late to this and most their attempts to getting into the trade market were a failure Back in the late 00s/early 10s DC attempted a bunch of OGNs like Black Canary/Zatanna, Get Jiro, Batman Noel, and the Earth One line. So marvel tried to copy that with Starlin's Thanos OGNs, Spider-man: Family Business, Season One OGNs, etc which mostly flopped. They biggest successes trade wise are pushing the trade the latest MCU movie was based on and more child/teen oriented comics like Moon Girl and Ms Marvel.Had they actually told the writers to plan for 24 issues and told readers that they had a specific endgame in mind instead of trying to drag out Nu Ultimate like the old Ultimate, then Nu Ultimate wouldn't have ended with a wet fart and readers wouldn't have been mad.
>>155759789Sins Past were their attempts to show Gwen wasn't an angel. And of course, because of the editorial team and because it was the 2000, they had to make her fuck Norman Osborn instead of actually exploring her nastier "queen bee" phase.
>>155759801Yep, Mayday is the Schrodinger's break glass in case of emergency daughter. Whether she lived or died is up for debate, according to Joe Q she died/never existed but fuck him.Annie is gone/never to be unless the Familyman rails finally are returned.
>>155759751Spencer correlated Norman to DeFalco's May Parker and Mephisto?
>>155759833Mayday being mission critical to saving ASM both in and out of universe is pretty fitting.Her reaction to OMD and BND would be like a thousand Superman Primes.
This is the most active thread on comics I've on months and it's a shit thread about a shit failed line. /co/ is useless.
>>155759411It's vague, at least in the last Ultimate comics themselves. Some fragment of him was capture by Doom, but the extent to witch it is any significant part of The Marker as the entity/being we knew is left unspecified.
>>155759332It's one thing to have an ending. It's another to allow authors to operate for a year under the assumption they have longer than a year to go then tell them they now have to wrap everything up in a year. Absolutely everything too, not just their own particular line, the entire connected setting.
>>155759865And then finish it with the promise of a reboot down the line, making the audience question why you're ending it in the first place.As expected of Shogun-kun.
>>155759785>if OMIT is canonOMIT's existence alone is enough to warrant Quesada's humiliation ritual.
If marvel wants evergreen trades so bad why don't they just make an imprint for prestige minis like Black Label?Granted I'm sure most of Black Label don't even sell that well after the first couple months, and most of them don't even get talked about except maybe Historia and Dead Earth due to Wondyfags not having a lot of good WW books, but that's mostly cause DC basically doesn't advertise them after the first issue anymore and the line is 75% Batman who has too many books to talk about.It's going to take at least 18 months for readers to not be leery over Midnight since a lot of people are expecting it to get cut off early.>>155759814>It's attempting long term profit while sacrificing short term gain.The thing they fucked up on is they barely sacrificed short term gain. Marvel was expecting to have their cake and eat it too ie they wanted the floppies to be supported for as long as possible (most readers don't buy minis/maxis bc they just trade wait). They waited until 18 issues in, when the floppy sales settled completely and were starting to drop due to Absolute taking all the attention, to tell readers that the whole thing was ending.
>>155759583The problem isn't even that MJ and Peter aren't together or they get with different people. It's that they don't just actually END it. Like it or not, MJ's role in Spider-Man stories is to be a love interest for Peter. She has no other functional, narrative role and trying to force her into a new one results in all the weird shit we've seen since OMD/BND.If they'd actually decided on a proper new set of love interests, some new story to tell about that, and had Mary Jane go off to "do her own thing" off screen, things wouldn't be so bad. It's their constant need to aggravate the wound, keeping it fresh and raw for those engagement bucks by having her prominently around in the Spider comics, that fucks it all up. Either have it be done and dusted or have them together. This fucking weird ass, constant back and forth on whether they're even allowed to be in a relationship at all, much less married, sucks all the interest out of it. Cause it's not a "will they won't they" any more. We know they would, if they could. So either they can, or they can't. Fucking PICK one you editorial goobers!
>>155759888Trips eight for highlighting the egregiousness.Using the first and last page of the marriage issue for your retcon, you really are just operating on a whole other plane of spite.
It all goes back to Quesadilla and OMD, doesn't it?
>>155759894They have turned Peter/MJ into Ross and Rachel, with all the fatigue and misery that means.616 should have been a done thing, and if they were so dead set on a single swinging Spider or a Cooper or anyone, start a new ongoing and see if it has legs. If it doesn't, perhaps your pitch for Spider-Man wasn't that fucking popular Joe Q? And the cabal holding the reins of the ongoing has been to its detriment.
>>155759906Load bearing wall, nothing to replace it.The discussion won't ever go until they do and it gets fixed, because they have had two decades to prove their thesis and they have done nothing but piss in all corners as the mould sets.
Wasn't it in Ultimate where Spider-Man killed MJ with his radioactive jism?
>>155759914That was in Reign IIRC.
>>155759785>Look at Peters life right now. There is NOTHING outside the mask, and he doesn't even get respect within it.Wrong. Aunt May lives, and that is enough.
>>155759906One thing I've always wondered about OMD is why MJ wasn't the one who got shot instead, that would've made the deal with Mephisto a hell of a lot more palatable than doing so for your elderly aunt who already asked you to let her go.
>>155759845I'm partial to>I feel like I've already read this story, but I understood it better.
>>155759932It would still be wrong to make any sort of deal with the devil, they fucking KNOW Ghost Rider and how this turns out, but it would be more palatable. It should have been a split second decision and Peter lives with the memories, and not a whole damn day to consider if this was a good idea and amnesia scot free.As it stands it was Peter being monumentally stupid, MJ being monumentally cowardly and everyone being monumentally incompetent.Were it up to me, part of the retcon/undoing would be that Peter and MJ never left the hospital, him visiting all these super people who couldn't fix a bulletwound was an illusion from Mephisto who was going all out breaking all the rules out of fear for Mayday.
>>155759930Cormac's stealing her away from him
>>155759946I love Primes arc, going from strawman angry fan to beloved fan favourite and embodiment of the audience.
>>155759909At least with couples like Ross and Rachel fans could believe it will work out in the end. Marvel has told us unequivocally that Peter can never have a successful long-term relationship. There's no reason to get invested in any relationship, old or new, because we know it won't last and it will probably be shit anyway because the writers don't care about it at all. There's no point to getting invested until they get rid of the dumb fucks in charge.
>>155759961It keeps needing to be said, right now it's bad musical chairs. You don't want any retcon, restart or romance under this group as they are fucking terrible at it.Clean house, and then have those without sunk cost or ego be the ones fixing this, otherwise we'll just get another Wells haymaker.
>>155759932Peter also decisively rejected that deal when Judas Traveller offered it to him during the Clone Saga, his mindstate changed a lot over the decade in between.
>>155759969Another Wells-esque run would genuinely lead to Lowe's house being burned to the ground
>>155756238NTA, but I disagree. I think the book is pretty even-handed when it comes to Shooter — the most ridiculous claim it makes is Howe's armchair analysis of Secret Wars where he takes the Beyonder being a young, all-powerful god tired of people not listening to him when he wants to remake the universe in his image and suggests that's Shooter writing himself. That BS aside, I found Howe more often sympathetic to Shooter than not. I still remember a few of the anecdotes pretty well:>the 1977 Marvel Christmas party, just before Shooter is set to become EiC on January 1st, where Stan drunkenly announces Shooter is gonna be in charge and everyone stares daggers at Jim because they all liked Archie Goodwin more>Shooter's first meeting with New World after the buyout, where he comes in with a plan to cut back and consolidate Marvel's line, only to be told point blank that the new owners actually want him to expand even more and Shooter, in John Romita's words, "looked like he wanted to kill himself">the bizarre levels of hatred Shooter was getting by the end, such as John Byrne's (er) burning an effigy of him at a partyDon't have the book with me, so these are all off the top of my head. But my impression of Howe's portrait of Shooter was that it was more sympathetic than some claim.What REALLY should be taken with a grain of salt from that book is anything from the post-2000 Quesada era. It's remarkable just how quickly the history becomes an exercise in spin during that last chapter.
>>155759982Wells run was the last spiteful bomb from the Brevoort mandate going off, the MJ being 'married' off like Betty Brant and going off into the sunset - only it seems they lost their courage or got told no leaving us with an aborted arc on all counts.They are stuck doing damage control for MJ without being able to actually address her actions, motivations or hold her accountable because that would be passing judgement on their own work. So MJ is going to be the scapegoat for the godawful things alien to her character they made her do.
>>155759930>Aunt May nagging Peter for being irresponsible while breathing at the expense of his strength, happiness and his daughter is enoughFuck off Kelly
Wait, how did we go from talking about Ultimate to OMD again?
>>155760037Well Ultimate is over, for nebulous and illogical reasons.And all roads lead to OMD forever putting the mainline into stasis.
MATING PRESS MAY.
>>155760069This nigga wants to fuck old, wrinkly hags
>>155760037Spiderfags can't stop being battered wives and fucking stop buying and talking about a character that hasn't been good for 25 years.
>>155760069Kelly.....
>>155760074>>155760093Not that May dummies..
>>155756748Hi, Fat Slobb!
>>155757659Address what? Wells' terrible writing? It can be addressed by eliminating the source
>>155760090Calm down Mileshill.
>>155760151I think it's more address beyond the faux-nonpology Ewing made her give in the park.
>>155760158Well enjoy your Spiderslop then. Even Batfags had the sense to stop buying after DC pulled the rug on the wedding and DC in response kicked King off about 30 issues earlier than he wanted.
>>155760270Gotta respect Batfags for being able to actually vote with their wallet.Spiderfags deserve this pit as they gottahavemyspidey proves even more egregious than gottahavemybatman
>>155760270>>155760277Right back at you with your Singlefatherman.
>>155760260You need to just stop acknowledging the abysmal writing. Paul is dead, memoryhole everything. Why do I need to even waste time thinking of the worst run in any comic book of all time?
>>155760270Spider-Fags have stopped buying the comic. It was mostly speculators and collectors, and collectors got a ramp off with #1k, sales are going to die
>>155759865Who fucking cares. Comics get canceled all the time and writers are told to wrap it up quick. Sure, sucks for the writer but so what. Half the time you people tell creators to go fuck themselves because you didn’t like a story they wrote, so pardon me if I find it disingenuous to cry about writers being screwed
>>155760354It's never going to stop haunting MJ until it's either retconned or challenged honestly by a good writer anon, I don't know why you think something twice as long as the Clone Saga can just be memoryholed. It's the only thing modern ASM has produced the last decade of note.
Peter would unironically be better as a single dad simply because of the angst potential.
>>155760372Marvel in its current state cannot do that. We can only hope they assign a good writer to ASM after this. Lowe seems to personally self insert into Paul and I'd assume it was already hard to get him killed off the way he was (ofcourse Lowe took credit for that). Right now it needs to be memoryholed because we cannot get anything better than that. In time it needs to be fixed
>>155759892>If marvel wants evergreen trades so bad why don't they just make an imprint for prestige minis like Black Label?Because that is not how you make “evergreen” trades. You cannot manufacture them like that. Evergreen is something that has consistent sales and demand. Also Marvel is already making minis more and more. If there’s one thing Marvel has to consider it’s better promotion and keeping things that appear to sell in print.
>>155760361Sales show otherwise.
>>155755786Sorry, i thought thats the current tradepaperback. But i meant the Ultimate revival, not the original one.Because everyone says they were top sellers. But what if they wernt profitable. What if the costs for the whole project and artists were too high.Not saying that a company kills a cash cow, because greed or wanted a new direction.
>>155750970They saw that they had accidentally created a universe where Peter Parker was happy and had to correct that mistake.
>>155760591The problem was that Hickman was ill-fitting as a Spider-man writer. He barely did anything with Pete's photo-journalist job for example.
>>155756771I love blonde chicks but dont particularly like Gwen
>>155760533Tell that to Marvel Unlimited.
>>155760370>creators*cabals>story*mandate
>>155760533More than 1/3rd of ASM sales are variants (if you apply Marvel's ICV2 numbers) which means A cover sales are actually stagnating since the BND era, the only reason the book is able to climb upto the sales chart is because of variant covers and retailers ordering more copies to get incentive variants
>>155760591Hickman wrote the Parker family like shit anon.
I don't think they even read the comics.
>>155760713>Playing the better written era as ridiculousPfffff
>>155760713Nick stop your not ironic ironic apathy is too proven.Also MJ looks great in denim.
>>155750970> January 10, 2024 - March 24, 2026> USM #13 January 22, 2025> Spider-Man: Brand New Day was announced at the end of March 2025> BND first teaser March 18 2026You can't make this shit up. Ultimate universe is the victim of MCU synergy
>>155760818Ultimate sells well and gets cancelled.BND in name only tie-in gets extended despite being below the barrel in sales, just so it can get to an anniversary milestone.Don't look for sense in this office, they work on Disney neetbux, cronyism and ego.
>>155760818>Ultimate universe is the victim of MCU synergyDidn't MCU originate from 1610 Ultimate? Nick Fury Jr. was from there.
>>155760835Yeah
>>155760855Why can't Disney mass layoff the cabals and relocate Marvel back to NYC if it is incapable to trust itself nor the cabals to do the IP farming without ruining the source materials?
Hickman's just pandering to build himself up. They killed the line because he was leaving and they had no good talent to replace him and Peach Momoko. The line was going to stop bringing in profit, it would have crashed hard, like the first Ultimate line post-Ultimatum.
>>155760372
>>155760918lmao not even pretending this matters with the mini
>>155760672More than 1/3rd of Marvel sales are variants, anon.
>>155752383>idea farmWouldn't it be preferable for your idea farm to produce GOOD ideas, though? Rather than bad ones that customers don't like, and moviegoers probably wouldn't like either if used in the movies?
>>155761112That's why I said "If you apply Marvel's IcV2 numbers"
>>155756758>>155756792>>155760145>all these retards taking such a simple statement as an attack on MJ or defense of Gwenjesus spiderfags are such anal retards
>>155760654>no replyThanks for conceding.
>>155761183>intentionally dense victimhoodFaggot this is why we said that >>155759329That's the reason why these faggot editors brought back gwen in so many different ways ans why Blue and Marvels had St. Gwen shit.
>>155759173Wrong ultimate universe buddy.
>>155761167It doesn't really matter, it's all goalpost moving since it still manages to be a top seller despite the so called fans hating the title for decades at this point. Also, data shows that comic book sales have increased from where they were 20 years ago, so...
>>155761360So you can't sell these comics on Unlimited nor Webtoon because there are no such thing as a variant for digital comics.
Why does editorial hate MJ so much anyway
>>155761474Someone should ask at NYCC
>>155760673Subjective. They could have continued.
>>155751444>They know that DC is kicking their ass right?To show how fucking miniscule the comic market is nowadays Supergirl bombing hurt DC more than the endless gaslighting of the Absolute line's success couldn't save them. DC comics selling is the equivalent of winning 1st in the Special Olympics because opponent didn't bother to show up.
>>155761474They don't, they've been pushing her harder than ever. If they hated her, she wouldn't even be around, like how she didn't exist at all between 1978 and 1983.
>>155752752>10% of your lineup having ok sales means you're doing wellOk
>>155761474She's popular so they can't stop using her but they hate her being together with Peter because they want to keep him single. Spencer's run spooked them so bad they sabotaged the relationship as much as they could.
>>155761693Monogamous Peter in a long term relationship with ride or die Mary Jane is the best version of the character.
>>155761635I have no idea what cucks like you are doing on this board, but despite your pathetic attempt to seem above it, you come off as whiny losers.
>>155750970Give me my daughter back you bastards.
>>155761839Why does May think that trashy party girl is gonna be a good housewi...>remembers trouble...oh.
>>155752041>blacktivism shit that just did MCU liteNah, it wasn't and you know this.
>>155761635>DC comics selling is the equivalent of winning 1st in the Special Olympics because opponent didn't bother to show up.Even in the context of just comic book sells a mediocre spiderman was doing as well as absolute “batgod”
>>155750970>Original intent was that the Ultimate line was just gonna keep going. I was going to do 24 issues and build up a Spider-Man book that somebody would come on and take overWhat an absolutely retarded plan. Why would you need to spend 24 issues (that's 24 months/2 years) to "build up" such a basic superhero story as Spider-Man? Why not have someone else to get it right from #1 onward? It's not like any of his ideas for Spidey were unique or exciting enough to warrant such extensive setup in the first place.
>>155761970I want her back, bro...
>>155761360It does matter because sales in comic sales is how much units shops pre order, Kelly's run alone has 394 variants so far with 176 open Covers, 92 incentives and 103 retailer exclusive variants which wouldn't be the case if the book is carried by genuine readers instead of collectors judging by the sheer number of variants
>>155750970Kek. I have a feeling that USM mogging the FUCK out of ASM played a part in it. Also, Marvel editors are retarded.
>>155753186UUUUUUOOOOOHHHHH ToT
>>155750970Did he say anything about what happened to Imperial?
>>155760372You're moving up the ranks of /co/'s Spider-Man schizos, but you're going to have to try a lot harder if you want to catch up to Gwenschizo and the guy who hates that Felicia is bisexual.
>>155761662>Marvel intern seething DC consistently curb stomping Marvel in the marketshare and Marvel barely eeking out a win over Image
>>155760580The only Ultimate comic that wasn't selling in the top 50 was Black Panther. Spider-Man, X-Men and Wolverine were in the top 10. The line wasn't unprofitable. I can't imagine the production costs could ever be that high. Nobody but Hickman was a big name and he was on the best selling book.
>>155762627>DC consistently curb stomping Marvel in the marketshare that they don't give a shit about anymore whereas DC has to keep shilling their Absolute garbage that barely sells on par with Spiderslop
>>155762763Like actual spider-slop like bottom of the barrel scraping it slop
>>155752845>a lot of the good Marvel stuff you really can't translate to an evergreen tradeYou'd have to edit the fuck out of them to make them fit.
>>155762627DC has two big ongoings, AB and AWW. Without that, it'd still look more like this. There's nothing else they're doing that anyone cares or talks about.
>>155762794>without DC books DC would be like this
>>155762763Friendly reminder not only did a Wonder Woman comic consistently outsell Amazing Spider-Man this year but a fucking MARTIAN MANHUNTER comic consistently outsold Amazing Spider-Man this year as well.
>>155762527Woah, he's just like me...
>>155762794Marvel constantly re-launches books to get temporary sales boosts, while DC maintains consistency, extends books, and actually gives writers time to tell the story they want to do.Bigger numbers =/= Good stories
>>155762855It's bad when a company publishing dozens a books a month is getting carried purely by two. But good news for Marvel, it looks like they might be carried by three when the Midnight books drop tomorrow.
>>155762878Caring about good stories over sales is great until a bunch of people at the company get laid off because they're no longer bringing in enough revenue to make payroll and the talent budget also has to be cut meaning some combination of worse quality and fewer books.
>>155762888>it's bad when a publisher publishes a popular book
>>155762910DC hasn't laid anyone offMarvel is forcing employees to choose between losing their jobs or moving from New York to LASo by your logic, Marvel is in the worse position between the two.Next?
>>155762940DC laid off a ton of people in 2020. Marvel's in the doghouse now. DC will be there again if Absolute fizzles out and they have nothing to replace it with.
>>155762955>I-It's okay when Marvel does it! DC is the only one bad for doing it! I HATE THE ABSOLUTE UNIVERSE! I HATE THE ABSOLUTE UNIVERSE! I HATE THE ABSOLUTE UNIVERSE!Okay shill
>>155762955I hate when people cry 'shill shill' but I really can not wrap my brain around anyone trying to defend Marvel's current output and shit on DC's success unless you're literally Dan Slott
>>155762986Because the Absolute line isn't good and the only difference is that people unironically shill for it unlike Marvel shit but it feels like nobody who works at the editorial cares anymore and the quality shows so what's the point of a dick measuring contest when Marvel clearly isn't focused on comics as the main money maker anymore whereas DC is struggling in everything thats not the Absolute Universe?
>>155763038>the Absolute line isn't any better than anything Marvel's putting outOkay you're a shill. I'm sure you have a deadline you're about to blow Dan maybe you should get back to that
>>155762869Fuck you bitch faggot
>>155762869Which would be impressive....if this was a main Spider-Man title
Marvel intern here. They canceled it because the Marriage was popular and they hate MJ and Peter together. Why do you think they spent the entirety of Death Spiral teasing Flash, they are making fun of you. Death Spiral was suppose to end with her and flash hooking up and QIB was going to end with them together on the statue of Liberty not MJ and Peter. That is what Ewing was building toward, when you look at the arc you can see it. But then they changed everything due to backlash but mainly concerns internally regarding BND movie and timing with1000. There was concern it would hurt sales. That's why Gomez was brought in to finish art at the end of Death Spiral and why QIB was delayed. When MJ stated "he listened terribly for hours" she is referencing her and Flash having sex, the last panel was not Flash looking at a picture, but he was in MJs Bed. It's why everything about Peter and MJ in QIB was undercooked and tact on with no Chemistry, and why Flash was zapped away to fight somewhere else. Shogun was also removed around the same time and the MJ mini was pushed back because of this to make adjustments but I think they may be keeping the MJ/flash ship on the table. One of the Stories from the MJ anniversary issue was suppose to go into 1000 as well but moved.Always remember they also hate YOU for preferring Peter and MJ together.
>>155763038>whereas DC is struggling in everything thats not the Absolute Universe?That's really not true, aside from the obvious like Batman the Next Level books are consistently in the Top Ten best actual sold comics of the week that retailers put together. Like Zatanna was right behind Amazing 1000 last week
>>155763038> Marvel clearly isn't focused on comics as the main money makerThis I actually agree with it’s kinda why I roll my when people say marvel needs a answer to absolute because the honest truth is they don’t give a shit it’s like trying to compete in a race when the other person is just sitting down on their phone
>>155763067>Amazing Spider-Man isn't a main Spider-Man title...what?
>>155763038DC keeps extending non Absolute titles, meanwhile Marvel keeps cutting them down.
>>155763073I was thinking moreso everything outside of comics because the market is so small on terms of profit margins that it really doesn't matter how well singles sell anymore.
>>155763085>DC keeps extending non Absolute titlesThat nobody reads.
>>155763080Ignore him, he's just a frustrated marveldrone. Not only did their big cash cow get consistently outsold by a Martian Manhunter title, but it was a mini which are guaranteed to sell less, and it also had a break in the middle which also is a guaranteed sales loss.
>>155751014You dont get it anon, Ultimate Line found success by not adding Carol to it, and Marvel was jealous that a no-Carol continuity was doing better than the one that did have Carol in it.
>>155763097>um ackshually I wasn't talking about the comic sales even though the topic was comic sales
>>155763080ASM is another relaunch idiot and not the mainline version people actually talk about
>>155763067>Amazing Spider-Man isn't the main Spider-Man title.
>>155763111They wouldn't get extended if nobody would read them, they'd get canceled early like the Marvel comics nobody reads.
>>155762979>>155762986I don't like either company right now. It's just ridiculous to talk about how great DC is doing when they only have two books and a couple of satellite minis doing well right now, and everything else is incredibly boring or obnoxious.
>>155763127You do realize there's several ongoing Spidey titles right
>>155763111Apparently someone is if they're being extended
>>155763140No there's not. Marvel's tried to get other 616 Spider-Man ongoings going but they all end after like twelve issues due to low sales
>>155763140You're gonna tell me that Spider-Versity is the main title?
>>155763138It’s like who’s the least retarded dick measuring contest at the end of the day they’re both retarded
>>155763129DC has literally extended poorly selling titles before
>>155759960He still a strawman, its just Dan Mora's art really sells and people like his art.
>>155763125Are you high or just incredibly stupid?
>>155763138>>155763165>uh both sides are badEver notice this is always brought out when one side is doing particularly bad?
>>155763160>No there's not
>>155763203They are both doing particularly bad.
>>155763203>Absolute >Look Absolute line>Absolute !>What about all those other failures and the WW book getting canned?>SHUT UP MARVEL SHILL
>>155763218That's not Spider-Man, that's Miles Morales. But my point still stands that they get cancelled shortly due to low sales
>>155763255>That's not Spider-Man, that's Miles Morales
>>155763246
>>155763275why would you think that point of view is acceptable on reddit?
>>155763246Wonder Woman's not getting canned Tom King is just leaving the book after I think like 70some issues. Also Next Level's been successful. But, like, Absolute books are DC books. So if the Absolute books are successful then DC is successful. What at Marvel is consistently selling half a million copies a month?
>>155763160>>155763164>What is Venom?keklmao even
>>155763246Look, anon, I'm a Marvel Zombie, growing up my pull list was 90% Marvel, 5% DC and 5% other. But they're in dire fucking straits right now and burying your head in the sand and pretending everything is fine is just going to make things worse, if you don't actually vote with your wallet and just keep going 'gotta have my spider-man' we're going to just keep getting more shit like Paul.
>>155763369>what is Venom?...not Spider-Man
>>155763388>...not Spider-ManWrong, retard
>>155763409Are you really so obtuse and need to feel that you're right on an anonymous board that you're going to sit here and say that the Venom book not only stars Peter Parker but is the main book to read if you want to know about the current goings on of Peter Parker.
>>155763426We're talking about Spider-Man books, not Peter Parker.Spider-Versity didn't even have Peter in it and it's still a Spider-Man book, just like Miles is a Spider-Man book without Peter in it.You?You're being a disingenuous liar so fuck right off and eat shit and die, you retarded faggot
>>155763120Not only did Ultimate not have Carol, they implied that she died along with a bunch of other people who received origin boxes.
>>155763511>Spider-Versity didn't even have Peter in it and it's still a Spider-Man book, just like Miles is a Spider-Man book without Peter in it.Anon, when someone pointed out that Martian Manhunter was outselling Amazing another anon tried to claim that Amazing wasn't the main Spider-Man book. Another anon pointed out that there isn't even another Spider-Man (Peter Parker) book. Spider-Man is Peter Parker. He's not Miles Morales, Gwen Stacy, Eddie Brock, or whatever other character they've given spider-powers to this week. Spider-Man is Peter Parker. Amazing Spider-Man is the main Spider-Man book. It's being outsold by Martian Manhunter.
>>155763168Are you retarded? That didn't get extended, it's an ongoing.
>>155763203Particularly only when one particular side is doing back, not to name names but that argument is only used when Marvel is doing bad.
>>155763572That's a great blog post and I'm sure to upvote on reddit, but Venom is a Spider-Man book, you retarded faggot
Holy fuck spider-cucks are deranged lmao
>>155763757In the sense that Nightwing would be considered a Batman book but you're not going to buy a Nightwing comic to see Batman or consider Nightwing to be the main Batman book
>>155763757Is Venom and the Miles ongoing outselling Peter Cuck's main title?
>>155763757Even if Venom is a Spiderman book its still getting outsold by martian manhunter and Wonder Woman so your argument is moot
>>155763831Eat shit and die you faggot
>>155761970sauce?
>>155763853We accept your concession.
>>155759932It was the original plan
>>155762566Which schizo is this now?Also fucking hell we actually do have Marvel Interns on a dead board like /co/. Yes DC comics is objectively doing better than Marvel comics at present, no whataboutism about films isn't what matters on a comic thread on the comic board.
>>155763918Marvel is going to retake first place once Midnight drops so let's see your excuses then
>>155764564Won't last.All company precedent says this will go the way of Ultimate, and has even less of a hook.
>>155764594>Won't last.Is what you've been told about Absolute
>>155759670>Batman: Year OneAre you stupid?
>>155764613Absolute had legs and has largely sustained its popularity.
>>155764637Absolute is nothing without Snyder who is also perfectly capable of failing (DC KO).
>>155750970The only reason i can think on why they would end the new Ultimate line despite being successful was due the people in the mainline would get exposed as incompetent and idiots in front of Disney executives if the side line is outselling them and getting better reviews than any of the mainline titles.
>>155764671Afraid that says more about your imagination.
>>155764676Why else would they end a line that did well?
>>155764676You would be surprised how many times people are willing to let others get fucked and ruin good projects if meant keeping their positions of power in a company.
>>155764701NTA but I'm willing to blame stupidity over malice.Of course then I'm wondering what arbitrary stupid reason was picked for ending Ultimate when you're outselling the mainlines, if once it proved popular you couldn't just extend or hand over to other creatives as Hickman thought was going to be the case.
It's happened before:>Ian Watson bewails his popularity: “WARHAMMERED, OR THE PERILS OFSUCCESS. Alarmed by the complete sell-out of all copies of IW’s Warhammer 40,000: Harlequin available at Games Day, Games Workshop have forbidden this particular hardback to be on sale in any GW shop in case customers buy it instead of a game. Stunned publishers Boxtree are protesting vehemently. (Bizarre – but true!)” New readers should note that, yes, the book is an official, GW-authorized tie-in with GW’s own Warhammer game....
>>155764557He always mentions that Paul was around "twice as long as the Clone Saga" and that it has ruined MJ permanently.
>>155764810MJ's not ruined permanently, but she will be permanently shat on by the current regime.Same guys that did this are still there. They refuse to see what they did and they aren't sorry, they will do it again.
>>155764872I'm not optimistic in the short term, but if the move to Burbank is indeed a sign that Disney isn't happy with Marvel, they might at least refrain from actively trying to ruin everything for the sake of their own jobs.
>>155764652Saying this after Martian fucking Manhunter outsold Spider-man lmao.
>>155764925I see clear damage control from them for MJ, giving her the anniversary issue (which mentions fucking nothing about the last decade and is mostly about her relationship with Peter which doesn't exist at present), the push for Jackpot, VenoMJ and the entirely unearned glazing in QIB and now a mini.The problem is they can throw as much glaze her way as possible, but they aren't doing the damage control and legwork to actually fix her reputation nor play to what gave her character such strength in the first place. Instead we're going on a girlboss era, when what we really need is 'Oh I have long standing family and friends and should really reconnect to them' era.Just prove herself reliable and warm again.
>>155750970Imagine being so autistic and seething at a fictional marriage so hard you cancel your big line-up out of spite.
>>155761474Because Marvel’s been run by Gwenfags for decades
>>155765138Same autists at the top ate a 30% decrease in sales post OMD so they could get their way, we're looking at Eltingville Club levels of spite.
>>155764701See >>155760884Books are only as good as the people working on them.
>>155765018Martian Manhunter was the same dumb lefty bullshit that Deniz Camp always writes. It sold well because of the hype around Absolute and Pulido's art. The character's name on the front of the book didn't matter at all, it was going to do well no matter who it was as long as it had Absolute in front of it.
>>155765253If Hickman was such a draw why did his other works struggle with his name?It's not to bring shade on him, it's just people think the only draw of Ultimate was his name alone. It's also because mainline Spidey at the time was such a ongoing humiliation ritual that the alternative looked better just by not being offensive.
>>155765287>PulidoKekDespite all your whining, the fact remains that Martian Manhunter outsold Spider-slop.
>>155765253And Hackman is not good. At all.
>>155765316Checchetto was just as important, and it was Spider-Man. Marvel figured out with his first exclusive contract that Hickman only sells when he's writing a big name, which is why they dragged him off Ultimates mid-arc to put him on Avengers."Married Spider-Man" isn't necessarily a big seller in and of itself and there's loads of historical proof of that.
>>155765030>Oh I have long standing family and friends and should really reconnect to themThey're not gonna have her interact with Peter throughout this whole arc with May losing her memories of him and Cormac being an actual villain, are they?
>>155765346Rodriguez, right, got them mixed up a bit.
>>155765385No. And MJ isn't going to interact with Gayle because she is best positioned to call her out for her sustained bullshit.Imagine Gayle learning oh by the way I adopted multiple children and cohabited with a man for years then lost them sis what's going on with you :)
>>155765383>only sells when writing a big nameAnon it's Spider-Man, grab someone off the street and you can get that accolade.Married Spider-Man definitely draws eyes, and it's far greater a pillar to build a run, but yeah it and of itself doesn't sustain a run anymore than being single spider-man. It's just far greater glue than what BND has offered.
>>155764872She will always have this albatross around her neck. the debate about Magic Kids, Mind control and retconning will not stop. MJ is not better off as a character having had Paul in her life.
>>155763875Jcm2
>>155765636Agreed, there were way too many Avengers #200 red flags that it won't go away. Wells run and its consequences were just that much of a tumour that was never excised and treated properly.However don't hold your breath for a retcon under Lowe.I am confident we'll get one in our lifetime, but definitely will be an entire editorial regime away. Effectively a new ASM.
>>155765576Renew Your Vows post-Conway shows how far it can slide. The last few issues of his run were holding steady at 25,000 which is not below the cancellation threshold, but not great for a spider-book. With Jody Houser, it fell to 15,000, which was cancel-worthy. Message loud and clear there, married Spider-Man with a kid cannot carry a title just by virtue of being married Spider-Man with a kid. No big name writer has come forward saying "Oh yeah I pitched a great Ultimate Spider-Man idea, but Marvel wasn't interested." Any follow-up was going to be crap.
>>155765712>post-conway RYVYou really need me to say it?
>>155765792NTA, Say what? Editorial Meddling?
>>155765818Timejump.
>>155759894This is a good point. Spider-Man has a bunch of line interests, but you don't see him hanging around with Betty, Liz, Felicia, or Deborah all the time.
>>155759930He doesn't have Aunt May anymore
>>155765963They crave MJ's popularity and ability to sell covers, but loath the reasons why. So she just sits like a scab they never let heal because after a homejob amputation.
>>155765979What's he got aside from an icecream craving FWB discount starfire and bad quipping aliens he can't be seen in public with?Constant assertion that he is FRIENDS with MJ and they are such good FRIENDS that need to talk about how they have reestablished their FRIENDSHIP on every page like real FRIENDS do with nothing to talk about as EVERYTHING IS RESOLVED.
>>155760037Because OMD and refusing to admit it was terrible is what effects every Spider-Man book. > Why was Ultimatesl successful? Because it ignores OMD> Why was Ultimate cancelled? Because of OMD> Why was Paul introduced? To reinforce OMD> Why does any decision get madeBecause of OMD
>>155760361How do people have the money to buy all these issues? On some level they have to know they're garbage and no one will ever want them
>>155760533Ah, yes. The all time lowest sales ever seen
>>155766092It's funny how since the 90's almost every single bad and artificial story direction has revolved around trying to keep MJ and Peter apart to the ongoings detriment, or even write them off entirely so they can still have a single swinging forever young Peter equivalent.Airplane crashes. Clone Saga. Cheating b8ing. OMD. OMIT. Superior Raping. Dead Language.It's the hotplate the hamster never learnt to stop touching.
>>155760672Why don't the stores just stop ordering the variants unless someone puts in a specific pull for them?
>>155760871They probably will eventually but there's just too much nepotism. These people think of these industries as just a method to funnel money into the friends and families pockets, the actual quality of the product doesn't matter. It's only when it gets so bad that it starts effecting the guys upstairs that they'll sacrifice the little guys
>>155766179And then there's Spencer who wrote garbage while putting them back together.
>>155762792Then do it.
>>155766179It's a uniquely Marvel thing too, the editorial and creatives at DC are just as seethed about Superman and Lois being married and finally worked up the nerve to undo it with new52 but the backlash made them go 'whoops, not gonna try that again' and no attempt has been made since to get them apart. But OMD was like the fourth attempt to break up Peter and MJ after three other massive flops and the only reason its stuck is sheer editorial stubbornness. We all know why Amazing isn't selling at Batman levels, editorial knows, but they'll sacrifice sales so their nostalgia is slaked.
>>155762955Marvel again laid off most of it's staff in 2020 due to Covid, they just called it a temporary furlough instead
>>155766308I believe Spencer's run was the last time Amazing Spider-Man sold at a level Amazing should be at
>>155766308Spencers run got editorial'd hard and goddamn ghost written at the end due to OMD adherence, which makes it another casualty for the graveyard.
>>155766354Editorial has sunk cost fallacy, and the biggest decision of many of their careers being wrong and to be seen in comic book history as idiotic is a fear to them. So they will double down and say this is the way it will be in perpetuity, when clearly the winds of the IP have blown around them and they are the odd ones out.
>>155763255You and understand, Anon. It's just a coincidence that Miles's books get cancelled at the pre-determined low sales issue number because that's Miles's favorite number and he wouldn't want his books to do longer than that.
>>155766308Other than dragging out the Kindred shit and the editorially raped conclusion, I thought Spencer's run was at least solid. Being surrounded by shit makes it look better, for sure, but I at least enjoyed reading it.
>>155763511I feel like it's not super cut and dry because you could turn around and say any Punisher book is a Spider-Man book with that logic. Venom has, for better or worse, become his own character to a degree. I would say it at least needs an asterisk
>>155763757That's not what a blog post is
>>155764564Lol, I'm not so sure about that. Maybe if they had hired me to write it instead of stealing my idea. Proofs: https://desuarchive.org/co/thread/152803827/#152880468
Is everyone on CBR a virtue signaling cuck femenist?
>>155766179It's just them seething and not having their own relationships. Teenagers have girlfriends. The idea that you can only have a girlfriend when you're "old" is nonsense.Besides, this proverbial bachelor Peter never existed. He was messing around with Liz until he met Betty, juggled both whole preferring Betty then meet MJ and Gwen before the first two were even fully out of the picture. He's always had a girl, and when he didn't need could have but was busy with Spider-Man stuff instead
>>155766092OMD is almost 20 years ago. So a lot of readers never even read Spider-man before OMD so your eternal butthurt about it is only evidence of how mentally ill you are when you keep blaming it for everything. Imagine you doing this for twenty years because you can’t get over Gwen dying or because you couldn’t accept Peter getting married.
>>155766406The best thing would be for Sony to pull out of the MCU after Doomsday flops and then reboot Spider-Man with a focus on a comic accurate MJ romance after seeing how big of a splash SpiderPhoenix made and just refuse any input from the comic book people no matter how often they call and scream people actually want to see Queen in Black or whatever garbage
>>155766648Hi Intern.Internet means readers in their twenties like me can at a whim read the old stuff that actually made ASM popular. We then read the modern stuff which is lacking in all aspects comparatively, because the Ongoing fundamentally changed after OMD to a more shallow and disposable form of storytelling. We then stop reading beyond idle shitposting and discussions on why things are lacking.Please take feedback to your corporate masters.
>>155766648Kids don't get into Spider-Man by reading comics. They get into him by watching the Raimi movies or one of the of cartoons and their parents telling them that MJ is his girlfriend. No, you're not getting a: "the old will die and the young will forget" there are kids running around in the playground playing Spider-Man with a girl pretending to be Mary Jane going: "save me from the bad guy!" no one wants to read some satanic cuckold nonsense.
>>155766721I don't think editorial realizes how MJ is Spider-Mans girlfriend is a universal constant outside their rump state.Like Marvel Rivals by every single metric is more influential than the comics at present, MJ and him are an item. They can run her out of focus for years from now and it won't matter, it's a done thing.
>>155766789This. Thanks to the 90s cartoon, the 2000 Neversoft game, the Raimi movies, and Insomniac's Spider-Man Mary Jane has become to Spider-Man what Lois is to Superman. It's why no matter who they try to shack Peter up with its always rejected by the fans. We need an editorial who are more concerned with sales and telling good stories than forever shoehorning in their preferred version of the character that's not working with fans.
>>155766850It would help if rather than derailing the whole mainline, editorial would just start the ongoings it wants to write, so if they want a Gwen/Peter ongoing just do it. And if it fails to stay then perhaps their dream evergreen was never actually that popular to begin with?But they don't roll those dice, because they don't want to be wrong, so they just drag to a evergreen stasis quo that never really existed outside of the fever dreams of Brevoort and Joe Q.
>>155763038>but it feels like nobody who works at the editorial caresDC has always at least a little bit cared, Hulk outsold Batman for one month and King got shitcanned off Batman. Spider-Man's been outsold by Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter for a year and a half and editorial hasn't done dick
>>155766924>But they don't roll those dice, because they don't want to be wrongThis is even more apparent since they could make Miles relevant by making him this version of Peter they have in their heads; eternally young, bachelor, no stable job, and then make Peter the grown up Spider-Man with Mary Jane, a stable job, and maybe even a kid. Like, that's such an obvious solution to the (made up by editorial) problem that there must be a reason they're avoiding it
>>155754146Wasn't this one also cut short?
>>155767110We have a clown car glut of superfluous Spider-Man because they will have a bakers dozen targeted to the 'youth' but not even Jessica gets to keep her kid.
>>155766359Marvel kept oldies like Brevoort, Lowe, and White. DC lost its entire senior editorial staff except Javins and Jim Lee.
Anyway R.I.P
>>155766648>. Imagine you doing this for twenty years because you can’t get over Gwen dying or because you couldn’t accept Peter getting married.Which is ehy sooner or later they will get rid of Mary Jane for good and revive Gwen as how things should be.
bump limit
end thread
So Long ulimate universe
>>155767585Only guys in their 70s grew up with Gwen, nobody younger than that actually cares about that rotting corpse except as Peter's second Uncle Ben.
MUH GWOO
>>155767683the orginal ending to OMD was for peter to wake up a very much alive Gwen Stacy fans would then out she did not die due to peter's deal with mephisto and that she was still be peter's GF had some idiot not Intervined then't that ending we would have got.
>>155764925>the move to Burbank is indeed a sign that Disney isn't happy with MarvelThe move to Burbank is because the leasing of Marvel's current offices was ending and the accountants didn't see q reason to pay for it when they had free space in the west coast.
>>155767683In their 60's, actually. That is the age of Busiek and Waid.
SEX WITH MAYYYYY
Marvel desperate with their midnight line
>>155762444>I have a feeling that USM mogging the FUCK out of ASM played a part in it. Also, Marvel editors are retarded.AFAIC that's the main reason they preemptively canceled the new Ultimate line. Beevoort or Lowe threw a fit about USM selling consistently selling better than Aamazing, the flagship book of Marvel Comics.
>>155750970Everyone with half a brain called this as Marvel killing the line out of pettiness and the lie about it always being planned they made the writers say was blatantly false.
