Why does it seem like people are suddenly treating Batman Forever and Batman & Robin as a separate continuity from '89 and Returns? Sure they recast Batman, but he is definitely supposed to be the same character.
>>155977858It’s not suddenly. People have been doing that for a while.
>>155977858Also because of the tone difference and different director. I like to think of those movies as AU continuations to Batman Returns
>>155977858Because Harvey Dent is black in Batman 1989 and is white in Batman Forever
>>155977917Maybe he had what Michael Jackson had
>>155977945Musical talent?
>>155977954No you idiot.He obviously meant a pet chimp.
>>155977954Vitiligo and plastic surgery
>>155977906>Also because of the tone differenceThe tone really isn't that different between '89, Returns, and Forever. B&R skews younger, but it's not wildly different.
Is this novel any good?
>>155977975>WHAT KILLED THE DINOSAURS>THE ICE AGEfuck you that shit was aas
>>155978614Fuck you, that line was awesome.
>>155977858>>155977906They were definitely intended to be in the same continuity at the time. Forever and B&R’s trailers had the Elfman theme, they both had Michael Gough Alfred and Pat Hingle as Gordon, and the unmade Batman: Unchained (AKA Batman 5, Batman Triumphant) was gonna have Clooney’s Batman in a trial sequence that involved every villain from across all of the four previous movies.
>>155978624How about I give you a BAT-KICK TO THE SNOWBALLS, Frosty
>>155977858IIRC the original plan was having Damon Wayans as Robin and Scarecrow as the villain in the 3rd movie, but when Schumacher came on board he wanted to change things.And honestly, both Forever and Robin were good, just in a campy way. What made them poorer is that they altered a few scenes from the original screenplay, but Returns was guilty of that as well.
>>155978676>but when Schumacher came on board he wanted to change things.I wish WB had just let him make the Batman Year One adaptation he wanted to do.>both Forever and Robin were good, just in a campy way.I know what you mean, but it bugs me when people talk about the Schumacher films as being campy, when the Burton films are just as campy, they're just goth camp. Honestly I think Burton is one of the most consistently campy directors ever, not saying Schumacher is inherently better, but I do think he was more versatile, the style and tone of his Batman movies, The Lost Boys, Falling Down, A Time To Kill, 8mm, Phone Booth are all wildly different.
>>155977858They are and they've been treated like that for years. They may share bits but it's very much it's own thing.
>>155978676Very much agree with this. I grew up watching Forever and B&R on TV all the time. Despite its campiness, it has a soft spot in my heart.
>>155978705Agree on your assessment of Schumacher. I have mad respect for the dude after seeing some of his other films. Dude can do horror, thriller, and tragedy very well. Shame the studio forced him to go full camp.
>>155977903recorded history starts when OP begins to notice the world around him
>>155978740He also made The Wiz, which was also a campfest.
One can argue that every sequel takes place in an AU.>>155977975Forever was noticeably campier and more 60s Batman than Returns. They dropped Burton and got Schumacher to direct a lighter Batman movie because parents hated Returns for being too dark. Then he went off the rails with the camp with Robin.>>155978705O'Neil liked the Burton films, he shrieked at the DC screening when Batman whipped out the Bat-credit card in the last film.
>>155979521>One can argue that every sequel takes place in an AU.True but I feel more of an inclination to do so with the Schumacher movies considering their differences and there being other sequels to Returns
>>155978676>Forever and Robin were goodBatman Forever could’ve been good if Robin Williams was The Riddler like they wanted and Tommy Lee Jones wasn’t trying to out goofy Jim Carrey but and Robin is a legit bad movie. Ignoring the campy complaints you’ve got really bad acting, god awful pacing (I saw the movie in theaters when I was 7 and I seriously thought the motorcycle race was never going to fucking end) and a nonsensical plot (Ivy wants to cover the world in plants and Freeze wants to freeze the world and they team up? Alfred is just like fuck it my niece can be Batgirl? And if there’s an intruder to the Batcave all the shit like the Batmobile and bat-weapons pop up for the intruder to admire?). It very much earned its “one of the worst movies ever made” reputation. It’s only positive is hindsight when you’re living in an era of cookie-cutter, assembly line non stop flow of comic book movies you look back on Batman and Robin and go “well that had style to it”
>>155977858See, anon, in the 90s we didn’t have stupid shit like multiverses or whatever, if a character was recast the thought was “it’s a different actor playing the same role” not “omg it’s a multiverse variant!” I mean James Bond was played by four different actors at that point and it didn’t bother anyone. There were no “cinematic universes”, each movie, even sequels, could be their own thing without having to follow a formula and people would understand that it’s a continuation without someone pointing out that the character is played by a different actor or what happened in the last movie.
>>155978387Quite good. Its sequel Revolution is a little weaker, but both are worth reading.
>>155979521>One can argue that every sequel takes place in an AUNo, there are multiple references to the first Batman in Batman Returns>who let Vicki Vale into the batcave?>where Boy Scouts can turn into killer clowns>Bruce mentioning Vicki on the couch with SelinaAnd in Batman and Robin Riddler’s costume and Two Face’s were in the Arkham Asylum evidence locker (dunno how Two Face’s got there since he fell to his death but whatever). This was just before gay ass cinematic universes where movies could be their own thing without having to do homework to understand it.
>>155979712And Forever had a very loose callback to Joker in the first film.>Dick: You wouldn't understand! Your family wasn't killed by a maniac!>Bruce: Yes, they were. We're the same.At the time, Forever and B&R were still considered part of what Burton started, even though they ended up going in wildly-different directions.
A Bat credit card
>>155977903Not in the 90's though.
>>155979712Sure, Batman is canon to Batman Returns. But Batman Returns isn't necessarily canon to Batman.The Halloween series is an example of how one can play around with this. There was the original timeline (I, II, IV-VI) then H20 came out and it considered on I and II canon, then it had one sequel with Resurrection. Then 16 years later they released Halloween (2018) where only the first movie was canon and it had another two sequels.
>>155979963I hate what reboots and cinematic universes have done to movies.
>>155979963You could say the same about Terminator 2. Not many will even see any of its sequels as canon
>>155978387No. The only good (even great) book JJM has ever written is Kenobi. Everything else is mid at best.
>>155979649You don't understand campy movies. B&R and Forever were throwbacks to the Adam West series (Robin even makes a "holey rusted metal, Batman!" exclamation when observing how the rust ate holes in the metal floor). If you look at it in that context, ie. ridiculous and over the top, it's a hilarious comedy movie.But people expected a grimdark looney tunes with a mutant Penguin coughing up bile while kidnapping children, and a skintight leather catgirl eating live canaries whole, and that's not what they got.>>155980020>You could say the same about Terminator 2.Every single Terminator sequel sucked. T2 just had great special effects, and Robert Patrick being way more menacing than Arnold (in particular because Arnold was at the time on his way to becoming a goofy comedy actor), so it was successful. But it completely missed what made the original movie great. It's like with Rambo.
>>155980998>>But people expected a grimdark looney tunes with a mutant Penguin coughing up bile while kidnapping children, and a skintight leather catgirl eating live canaries whole, and that's not what they got.Forever made more money than Returns. Returns was an all right film, but the movie Burton directed was not the family friendly Batman film WB wanted to market, so it ended up alienating a lot of people. He only got away with it because the first one was so successful.https://ew.com/article/1992/07/31/unhappy-returns/>But many parents of young children are angry over scenes of violence and kinky innuendo, older kids aren’t hooked on repeat viewings, and more than a few adults say they are turned off by the kiddie-flick tone of tie-in promotions. >Privately, Warner execs are distressed that the movie is so grim, so offputting. ”It’s too dark. It’s not a lot of fun,” says one. But the chief of a rival studio says Warner got just what it asked for. ”If you bring back (director Tim) Burton and (star Michael) Keaton,” he says, ”you’re stuck with their vision. You can’t expect Honey, I Shrunk the Batman.” >Renee Greene of Chicago says, ”I’m sick of all the ads. It’s hard for parents whose kids drive them nuts wanting to go to McDonald’s to get all the stupid cups.” Some younger kids were frightened by the subplot involving kidnapped babies and grossed out by Danny DeVito’s bile-spewing Penguin. ”It made me sort of sick,” says Greene’s 9-year-old son, Michael. A CinemaScore poll of moviegoers turned up similar results: Viewers gave the film a decidedly lackluster overall grade of B. >The sequel has displeased both poles of its audience — the flood of juvenile tie-ins has undermined its appeal to adults, while its kinky weirdness turns off some kids — so that the whole enterprise seems a bit less airborne.History repeated in the other direction with B&R. So campy and homoerotic that even fewer people wanted to watch it.
>>155977858Batman and Robin is just so incredibly different from 89 Batman in look and tone that it might as well be another universe. hey have no similarities of any kind. >>155977945Michael sanctioned all the buffonnery, they are not comparable.
>>155977975Nigga is you stupid!?
>>155980998>But people expected a grimdark looney tunes with a mutant Penguin coughing up bile while kidnapping children, and a skintight leather catgirl eating live canaries whole, and that's not what they got.Yeah, fuck people for expecting to be a sequel to be tonally consistent with the series it’s set in.
>>155980998>T2 just had great special effects...But it completely missed what made the original movie great.Pretty sure T2's transition from slow-paced sci-fi thriller to fast-paced sci-fi action film was entirely intentional. Making another movie like the first would have been pointless, while switching up Arnold's role and going all-in on action and explosions kept things interesting for a vast majority of audiences.Despite your praise for the film, you're still talking about T2 like it was some unintentional miss-step, and that's no true.
>>155978676>>155979649Batman and Robin was Schumacker clearly deciding he was making a 90s movie adaptation of the Adam West show. It had the same weird pink and purple colors everywhere, every other shot was Dutched, and everyone had some pun line of dialog. I don't know why Schumacker was so determined to recreate the campy show when it was the 89 movie that brought all the insane levels of popularity to the character. No one in 1997 wanted to watch a modern rendition of a dumb 60s show. They wanted to watch a sequel to the 89 movie.
>>155978705I don't know why he thought that was a good idea. The first movie was year one. Batman had only been around a couple weeks and never fought a villain before. How does one get even more origin than that?
>>155978705The Burton movies had a perfect balance. Batman and Joker were basically cartoon characters who worked on cartoon physics and cartoon logic, while everyone else was a real world person with real reactions. By Batman and Robin, the whole setting and everyone in it was a cartoon. Gotham was an over the top neon light toon place out of a Bakshi film and every single person there worked on cartoon physics. There was no grounded real world backdrop any longer.Raimi spider-Man movies also got this. Spider-Man and his villains were functionally cartoon characters acting out in the real world.
>>155981178>fuck people for expecting to be a sequel to be tonally consistent with the series it’s set in.this, but unironically. Expecting "more of the same" from a sequel was always brainlet behavior. Plenty of famous sequels went in entirely different directions from their predecessors. Gremlins 2, Temple of Doom, Aliens, and T2 come to mind.>>155981199>I don't know why Schumacker was so determined to recreate the campy show when it was the 89 movie that brought all the insane levels of popularity to the character.Probably because the 60s batman was still culturally relevant. Also two Burton Batman movies already existed, and he likely felt it would be pointless to try and copy the work of someone who he wasn't. And to act like the Schumaker movies and the 60s series are the same thing is entirely disingenous. "Drawing inspiration" from something doesn't mean "it's functionally identical". Schumaker's Batman movies still had a lot of original presenation and a uniquely 90s tone, despite the camp. The fact that they didn't just try to copy Burton's films is probably the only reason they enjoy any relevance today.
'89 is still so fucking good.Everything about it is so perfect.
>>155981275Eh, the middle of it stalls out pretty badly. There's too much "bruce and vicky" drama. Giving Batman a crisis of faith in his mission in his first movie was kind of a bad move.
>>155979686It's kind of annoying how they cannot switch actors in anything these days. When some actor dies or gets arrested, the character has to be retired. Even characters that in comics have different alternate universe versions of themselves like Kang, must be retired because of one actor.
>>155981270How many times you seen this pasta so far??
>>155977858honestly 89 and returns already feel like a different continuity
>>155981272>Schumaker's Batman movies still had a lot of original presenation and a uniquely 90s tone, despite the camp.This. If anything, they feel like a mashup between Burton Batman, 60s Batman, and neon vomit.>>155981304>Giving Batman a crisis of faith in his mission in his first movie was kind of a bad move.This was one of the most consistent complaints about 89 Batman on usenet forums of the day, actually. Fans recognized the sentimental side of Batman, but thought it was lame that the movie spent so much time on bruce and vicki's relationship drama. But to be fair, it was a time when romance was a necessity for normies, and studio execs were unsure if audiences would sit still for 2 hours of masked hero antics.I think there's an episode of Captain N (of all things) that pokes fun at the relationship drama in Batman 89.
>>155980998>>155981101Honestly Penguin's portrayal is where Returns went completely wrong in every possible way. For some reason Burton decided he needed to be an actual freakshow sewer mutant and have scenes where he eats raw fish, then lead an evil circus. That one is a Burton standard, he fucking loves his freak circus thing and sticks it in a lot of movies.When really he should have reigned his stupid goth horror shit in and made Penguin some Italian mafia don working in Gotham after Joker killed off most of his rivals. They had DeVito who was perfect for the mafia don role, just not a mutant horror monster role. It would have killed almost all the complaints about the movie.Or if they HAD to do the evil circus thing, just make it the DeVito and circus from Big Fish, only with guns since they're evil.
>>155981272...so the answer is to copy someone else who he wasn't?
>>155981199>>I don't know why Schumacker was so determined to recreate the campy show when it was the 89 movie that brought all the insane levels of popularity to the character.Warner Bros asked him to do it this way after Returns underperformed.>>155981409Daniel Waters, who did the bulk of the Returns script said that Sam Hamm wrote a very traditional, very "boring" Penguin/Catwoman script that Burton didn't like at all.
Why didn't WB just tell Burton to tone it down or try supervising him
>>155981199>Schumacker was a fag>60s West Batman was famously adored by fags in the 70s and 80s and most people loved to pretend Batman and Robin were fucking in that show>Fag director was going to shift everything around to callbacks to the Adam West series because he loved it>Who the fuck cares what kiddies in the modern day likes, >Kills franchise entirelyIt's not difficult to connect the dots here. Add in old guys that cannot grasp Batman being anything but the West show since that was the only exposure they ever got. Loads of executives assumed Batman WAS exactly what was seen in the 60s show and nothing else.
>>155981837"When someone delivers a success, let them cook" seems to be the Warner Bros film producers' ethos. This also hurt them in a big way when Todd Phillips did his Joker sequel.
>>155981272Let's be real here, Batman & Robin was just plain the 60s show, but with 90s costuming and effects. It was not even trying to resemble the movies that came before it. but it was very much trying to resemble the Adam West show, Dutched Angles and all.
>>155981304I feel that was about Returns. It starts strong then meanders around with a lot of meaningless shit. The middle hour of the movie almost seems like a series of sketches stitched together into a complete movie. Most of it can be dropped and it does not really remove anything that needs to be there.
>>155981911I meant the third movie but I suppose the question fits Returns too
>>155981409>>155981928It was 60s Batman but with Burton styled Costuming and vehicles.
>>155981911>This also hurt them in a big way when Todd Phillips did his Joker sequel.But the Joker sequel was awesome.>>155981928>Let's be real here, Batman & Robin was just plain the 60s showNah.
>>155981946WB didn't want to deal with him and Burton didn't want to work under those conditions either.>I realized halfway through my meeting with Warner Bros. that they didn't really want me to do the movie. They kept saying, 'Don't you wanna go back and do a movie like Edward Scissorhands? Something smaller?' I said, 'You don't want me to do the movie, do you?
>>155977858It's actually a lot easier to pretend Batman & Robin is a sequel movie to the 60s Adam West show than a sequel to the Burton movies. It was like all those made for tv updates to 60s series happening at the time in the 90s like Get Smart, Munsters, and I Dream of Genie. Batman & Robin was just a what if they were STILL crusading around Gotham and fighting the same bad guys while occasionally a new one like Poison Ivy appears.
>>155981996Fair enough
BAYBEEEHHHHI COMPARE YOU TO A KISS FROM A ROSE ON THE GREY
>>155977858Have any continuations of the Burton films ever included the Schumacher ones?
>>155982334There was a meta-gag in the Flash film where Keaton was replaced by Clooney thanks to time antics.
>>155977945bleach?>>155977954you're thinking of Quincy Jones>>155977858the power plant boondoggle plot in Batman Returns is the reason there's so much excess power for neon lighting in Forever and Robin; Batman stops Schreck, he doesn't prevent the unnecessary power plant being built
>>155980998>You don't understand campy movies. B&R and Forever were throwbacks to the Adam West series (Robin even makes a "holey rusted metal, Batman!" exclamation when observing how the rust ate holes in the metal floor). If you look at it in that context, ie. ridiculous and over the top, it's a hilarious comedy movieYeah, I get that, I was watching the ‘60s Batman show while you were still a twinkle in your daddy’s ballsack. That doesn’t mean it’s a good movie that didn’t have awful acting and a boring slog
>>155977945An unhealthy obsession with little boys?
>>155981996Which is funny because they hired him to do a Superman movie>we feel your sensibilities are too dark and not family oriented enough for Batman>so how about a Superman movie instead
>>155981793Sam Hamm’s Batman 2 script was fucking awful. Penguin and Catwoman weren’t even really villains, their whole plot was to find gold under Wayne Manor
>>155982123love that song
>>155982123Such as Seal
>>155982035Batman 89 was itself cashing in on that trend. The 80s already had a few like The Untouchables and Dragnet
>>155981837Burton went non-vocal during Batman returns. Like he just would not communicate with people and hide when he could. I read costume designer Bob Ringwood say he was on a lot of coke at this time
>>155982123The 90s trend of attaching songs to films and acting as though it's THE song that should be associated with the film despite it never actually being fucking used in the film itself is interesting to me. Even Pokemon did this. Pokemon the First Movie had this music video attached to it and it was basically the main song associated with the OST, but the song had absolutely nothing to do with the film at all.
>>155983074It plays for all of minute after the U2 song during the credits, long after most of the people have already left the theater. Yet it's cross promotion that just works.
>>155983074But that was the shitty 4kids localization
>>155982334you mean other than the two Schumacher movies themselves, which mostly used the same cast and even the same costumes and sets?
>>155984161I think he means all the recent continuations like the book series comics. They’re all basically alternate returns equals.
>>155983955Almost every Japanese anime similarly attaches an unrelated J-rock or pop song to it as an opening. Not Pokemon, but plenty others.
>>155983074It was a trend in movies in the 80s, where the song was actually tied in to the movie with lyrics that were relevant to the scene where the song played, but over time too many people got screwed over and eventually singers got spooked and started refusing to participate. By the 90s it was basically just that the studio would get together with the publisher and handshake a deal to tie one of the 'next summer radio single' to a 'next summer blockbuster' and do mutual advertising.
>>155982950Batman 89 was working on the Reeves Superman and Bixby Hulk trend of making an actual serious movie out of a comic book character. Both proved it was possible is done well and all campyness and silly shit is removed.
>>155982856Is that really worse than freakshow circus gang using mind controlled penguins to kidnap children in a big stupid circus train in the middle of downtown?
>>15598307480s started that. They began contracting songs for the main theme and it turned into a huge MTV tie-in that worked out incredibly well for the big summer movies. It was a really good cross promotion that worked as consistent advertising for the movie on radio and in ads. Kenny Loggins did the heaviest lifting with things like Highway to the Danger Zone but also the Robin Hood Prince of Thieves song was another #1.
>>155984713Yes, at least then he’s a threat to Gotham. In Hamm’s script he was basically just spelunking.
>>155977858>Why does it seem like people are suddenly treating Batman Forever and Batman & Robin as a separate continuity from '89 and Returns?Different filmmakers? 89 and Returns were Tim Burton. Forever and &Robin were Joel Schumacher.
>>155986915but broadly the same cast, sets, costumes
Because DC has officially declared them separate Earths when they made Batman 89.
Forever and B&R are more an AU where most of the history is the same as the Burton movies but with small changes like Harvey Dent being white and Gotham being much brighter.
>>155979521>Then he went off the rails with the camp with Robin.To be fair, that was at WB request. Forever was a hit and the toy sales were excellent, so WB brought in Kenner to help design all of the costumes, gear, and vehicles.
>>155981743Penguin's portrayal is one of the best things of the movie. The original character was always intended to be a short guy with an odd appearance that looks like a penguin, who doesn't really fit with average people, as seen in Detective Comics #41 and emphasized in later apperances where he is called a freak or grotesque. He is The Penguin, not a generic italian mafia don (Penguin was never a italian) like you want him to be so much. You have Falcone, Maroni or Zucco.
