>>77441755
They live lives of quiet caloric restriction. That's the only difference. You can't overeat if all you're eating is bean curd and salad.

>>77441755
Good luck with this around these ketotards and roidtrannies

>>77441764
1500 calories of steak and cheese is way more fattening than 1500 calories of broccoli, even if it were in principle possible to eat 1500 calories of broccoli in a day (it's not without incurring serious cramps.) Much like ketolards, CICOn****** don't understand calorie absorption.

>>77441771
I have no idea what you think that means, but the reality is that vegans live slightly longer because they're predominately liberal, meaning better-educated (generally), so higher incomes (generally), and can afford to eat the food that the rest of us feed to the animals we eat. So you're reducing the concentration of solar energy by an order of magnitude, and increasing the amount of food you have to eat, resulting in overall caloric restriction.

>>77441771
>(it's not without incurring serious cramps.)
1500 calories is like 6 gallons of broccoli. You would die.

>>77441779
>vegans live slightly longer because they're predominately liberal, meaning better-educated (generally), so higher incomes (generally)
ah yes blaming white rednecks for you not being able to address or produce any actual evidence for why vegans are healthier. I suppose all the study volunteers in Texas under Ornish started voting democrat once the study concluded.
>and can afford to eat the food that the rest of us feed to the animals we eat.
you can't afford basedbeans or corn? but you can afford to feed them to animals and then pay to house the animal and give it antibiotics for a few years. Murdervore logic, everyone

>>77441755
vegans have selection bias. Vegans are more likely to be conscious regarding health and therefore as a group are generally have a higher lifespan. >>77441764
also this. Calorie restriction has a lot do with longevity. Japanese people are rarely vegan but have the highest lifespan of any country in the world. They have done studies on calorie restriction and longevity in chimps and on the general populus and its the restriction that causes longevity not any magical property regarding vegan foods.

I will concede that eating a primarily non-meat diet does lead to better outcomes due to the above but its incidental due to the calorie restriction.

Overall, eating largely unprocessed and veg/fruit heavy diet is the best approach. Eating the occasional egg or, piece of meat is fine as long as you arent guzzling down meat on the daily. IF your goal is longevity that is. Basically eat an asian diet and not a western one. Treat meat as a treat as you would treat like a chocolate sunday or something. That said, it isnt really optimal if your goal is strictly muscle growth, but being vegan or largely vegan would indeed help you stay lean once that muscle is on you.

>>77441789
to add to this, being vegan or largely is most likely the most 'natural' diet. We as a species are not designed to optimize for muscle growth. Nature didnt really intend on us going to gyms and lifting weights with progressive overload to hijack our stress response to resistance and muscle damage (which is like our tanning response to the sun). We do it for vanity reasons, its like a peacock being able to artificially increase the size and colouration of it's plume. A diet that optimizes muscle growth and a diet that is 'healthy' are not the same thing. Being muscular and healthy are not the same thing. If you or i truly prioritized health and longevity we'd be eating a largely vegan diet, basically like a japanese person does. But the truth is that going to the gym is not really about health and longevity, it's about vanity and peacocking which is why barely anyone on /fit/ or wherever else gives a shit about that form of diet. The fitness industry has been hijacked by the muscle building industry.

>>77441789
>vegans have selection bias.
this is only relevant to descriptive population studies. So fine, throw them out. Now you still have to deal with all the intervention studies showing that, yes, plants are healthy and have properties not found in other foods, and yes, CICOn***** are still retarded, no, "calorie restriction" is neither incidental nor necessarily the primary cause of vegans having longer life spans.
> They have done studies on calorie restriction and longevity in chimps and on the general populus and its the restriction that causes longevity
this is your standard of evidence? Non-human study showing caloric restriction correlated with lifespan = total CICOn***** victory?
>not any magical property regarding vegan foods
Yes, there are known "magical properties" that vegan foods have, this is very basic nutrition. Fiber from plant sources was found to have benefits that psilium husk isonutritional poop powder does not. Chloroplasts have special health benefits. Plants are almost all antioxidant while murdervore ketolard diets are all inflammatory. Your blood fights cancer better in a pitri dish compared to control when you've eaten blueberries. Nigella Sativa is so high in antioxidant content that it was found to treat COVID.
>Overall, eating largely unprocessed and veg/fruit heavy diet is the best approach.
Glad you agree

>>77441796
>Glad you agree
yeah because im not a dogmatic retard like you dude. Can you concede that someone eating meat, maybe once or twice per month would have no measurable effects on any of their health markers or longevity? Also funny you completely glaze over the japan argument.

>>77441789
>I will concede that eating a primarily non-meat diet does lead to better outcomes due to the above but its incidental due to the calorie restriction.
Isocaloric substitution of total plant-based proteins for total and all specific animal-based protein food groups were associated with lower BMI (β: −0.30; 95% CI: −0.38, −0.22), waist circumference (β: −0.85; 95% CI: −1.04, −0.66), and LDL cholesterol concentrations (β: −0.06; 95% CI: −0.08, −0.05) (P < 0.0056). Replacement of processed meat and processed seafood proteins with total plant-based proteins was associated with improvement in most CVD risk factors and predicted 10-y CVD risk. Replacement of oily fish with legume proteins was associated with lower HDL cholesterol and higher TG concentrations.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002231662335497X
>Those randomized to eat vegetarian had a greater improvement in quality of life and mood. They felt less constrained, meaning the calorie restriction didn’t seem as burdensome; they had less disinhibition, meaning less tendency to binge and overeat, along with maybe less feelings of hunger. Not to mention the superior effects of a vegetarian diet on body weight, glycemic control, blood lipids, insulin sensitivity, and oxidative stress.
>Wait, better body weight? I thought they were given the same number of calories. Yes, both diets were isocaloric, the same calories. Yet, just eating meat-free led to significantly more weight loss—about six pounds more; more waist loss, a slimmer waist; lower cholesterol, of course; and less superficial fat, meaning the external jiggly fat; and most importantly, significantly more visceral fat loss––the most metabolically dangerous deep belly fat. Same calories, yet more loss of body fat. And not surprisingly, better control of their diabetes. All in addition to leading more effectively to improvements in physical fitness.

>>77441800
>Also funny you completely glaze over the japan argument.
I thought we threw out population studies as unreliable because of a lack of controls?
>>vegans have selection bias.
>>this is only relevant to descriptive population studies. So fine, throw them out.
But if you want to reintroduce them, you now again need to deal with the fact that in the Adventist study, vegetarians have longer life expectancies than Japanese people (and of course about 10 years compared to non-vegetarians).
> Can you concede that someone eating meat, maybe once or twice per month would have no measurable effects on any of their health markers or longevity?
Lapsed vegetarians who eat meat even as little as once per week showed noticeably worse health outcomes than strict vegetarians iirc. But, sure, the dose makes the poison.

>>77441802
>In the substitution models [35], the effect of a higher plant-based protein and lower animal-based protein isocaloric diets was examined by simultaneously including percentages of energy from plant-based protein, carbohydrates, fat, total energy, and alcohol intakes. When total energy, carbohydrate, and fat intakes are kept constant, the only macronutrient that can decrease as the percentage of energy from plant-based proteins increases is animal-based proteins. Thus, this model reflects the substitution of plant-based proteins for animal-based proteins. The same method was used to examine the effects of a higher total plant-based proteins and lower animal-based proteins from the various specific food group isocaloric diets and to examine the effect of a higher legume protein (including pulses) and lower animal-based protein from the various specific food group isocaloric diets. The models were also adjusted for age, sex, ethnic group, physical activity, current smoking, alcohol drinking, educational attainment, and employment status.

they didn't necessarily put people on two different diets. They used people's existing dietary data and applied a statistical model to simulate a swap.

even your own study proves you wrong m8. They basically extrapolate from existing diets based on percentage of plant and animal proteins in them. There is no actual restriction to a vegan diet mentioned in this study. It actually only mentions plant vs animal proteins.

>>77441809
>I thought we threw out population studies as unreliable because of a lack of controls?
>posts population study with lack of proper controls
>>77441802

Disingenuous dogmatic retard.

>>77441755
I love eating the flesh of animals and consuming their life essence especially their hearts liver or spleen. I also fucking abhor factory farming and specifically almost exclusively eat lamb since they are grazed by default.

Plus humans are literally active predators our pupils are evolved in such a way that they are optimal for chasing prey, similar to wolves.

Veganism is an extreme diet that is rooted in ethics and philosophy not nutrition science. Plus vegans literally suffer from a shitton of deficiencies without supplements which says a lot about its viability as a diet. I have -had- a lot of vegan friends who simply either became vegetarians or started eating meat again due to how shit they felt and these were educated people on the topic.

You are literally fighting against your physiology. If you want to know how humans ate in nature there are a shitton of uncontacted tribes. Not ONE of them is vegan and there has never been a vegan civilization

>thats immoral
according to whom exactly

>>77441815
>they didn't necessarily put people on two different diets. They used people's existing dietary data and applied a statistical model to simulate a swap.
the second quote is commentary about a different study.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27792174/
commentary from: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/improving-vo2max-a-look-at-vegetarian-and-vegan-athletes/
>even your own study proves you wrong m8.
Hmmm? I didn't realize I was the author of the study and that it proved me wrong about commentary about a different study. Thanks for reminding me!
>>77441818
1. That population study had extremely rigorous controls (The models were also adjusted for age, sex, ethnic group, physical activity, current smoking, alcohol drinking, educational attainment, and employment status.)
2. I was willing to throw out population studies because your very first words were criticizing the lack of controls, and population studies despite being practically unanimous in showing benefits to veganism are unnecessary for any of my claims. But then you brought up not even a study but just the single datum of Japan's average life expectancy and expected me to respond to it seriously.

>>77441831
>the second quote is commentary about a different study.
>makes out like the quote is regarding the study posted even though it has nothing to do with it, in hopes that anons would not actually check the study
just shows how disingenuous you are geezer

>1. That population study had extremely rigorous controls (The models were also adjusted for age, sex, ethnic group, physical activity, current smoking, alcohol drinking, educational attainment, and employment status.)
the population study you posted was a study that basically tracked and standardised existing food intake and diets and then used a statistical model to segregate and extrapolate animal and plant proteins. There were no real controls in place there other than statistical ones where they disregarded data from people with extreme diets (high or low calorie).

They didnt actually get two groups of people put them on a 2000 kcal diet, one vegan, one non vegan and then see outcomes. That is a controlled study. They just got data from existing diets with standardised measurements of plant protein and animal protein, nobody in this study was on a strict, measured vegan diet. So the very people youre referencing in the study were also eating meat, just in varying quantities.

>>77441825
>You are literally fighting against your physiology. If you want to know how humans ate in nature there are a shitton of uncontacted tribes. Not ONE of them is vegan and there has never been a vegan civilization
"Nature" would include early 20th century China, where meat was practically never eaten by the lower classes. Not sure how you got data about uncontacted tribes' diets without contacting them. The ones we have contacted have a variety of diets, with many of them getting 90%+ of their calories from plants. If you want to know how our *ancestors* ate, you can check fossilized stool samples, and again it's a mixed bag but there definitely are examples where they are practically only eating plants. There was never a civilization that banned slavery until like 200 years ago bro lol. Whig history would predict we'll all be vegan in 200 years.
>Veganism is an extreme diet that is rooted in ethics and philosophy not nutrition science.
All the nutrition science says veganism is healthy accross all categories of evidence, excepting perhaps your anecdotes.
>murdervores try to provide scientific evidence against veganism in a debate about the health effects of veganism challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

File: 1785604699926522.jpg (72 KB, 736x735)

72 KB JPG

>>77441755
Let's wait for Banana-girl to weigh in on veganism.

>>77441834
>statistical controls don't count
whatever lol. Fine, throw that study away too. Still have to deal with all the other intervention and randomized controlled trials showing veganism is healthier.
>makes out like the quote is regarding the study posted even though it has nothing to do with it, in hopes that anons would not actually check the study
it actually makes my case more strongly now that you pointed out my error
>They didnt actually get two groups of people put them on a 2000 kcal diet, one vegan, one non vegan and then see outcomes. That is a controlled study.
the 2nd study whose link I didn't post did exactly that though
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27792174/

I get the distinct sense that this CICOn***** is a mexican for some reason

>>77441845
>posts study
>Patients with Type 2 Diabetes
>study is only an abstract with barely any detail on how the study was conducted
>An individualized exercise program was prescribed to the participants
>no detail on which foods were actually given to subjects beyond "conventional vs vegan diet"
come on brother, post something i can actually sink my teeth in to. this is some baby shit right here

>>77441849
>>77441845
>no mention of actual amounts of calories given to each participant beyond (-500 tdee)
>participants have type 2 diabetes and are quite obviously mordibly obese

File: captu.png (80 KB, 1000x462)

80 KB PNG

>>77441849
> this is some baby shit right here
Yes, it is. I'm sorry you're illiterate.

>>77441856
then why not post that? Hmm funny that...

>>77441859
part of my plan to trick you into being vegan by forcing you to learn how to read

>>77441863
alright lad read the study
>all subjects diabetic
>sample size of 74
>The vegetarian diet (~60% of energy from carbohydrates, 15% protein, and 25% fat) was based on whole plant foods (whole grains, legumes, vegetables, fruits and nuts). Animal products were rectricted to one portion of low-fat dairy a day. The composition of the conventional diabetic diet met the dietary guidelines of the Diabetes and Nutrition Study Group (DNSG) of the European Association for the Study of Diabetes (EASD) [8]. It derived 50% of energy from carbohydrates, 20% protein, less than 30% fat (≤7% energy from saturated fat, less than 200 mg/day of cholesterol/day).
macronutrients of each diet vary slightly
>An individualized exercise program was prescribed to the participantsbased on previous physical activity and spiroergometry. Aerobic exercise was performed twice a week at 60% of maximal heart rate for 1 h under professional supervision at the sports center, and the third weekly session took place either at the sports center or at home. The participants used a sport-tester and a pedometer.

so calories burnt werent actually monitored on the workout sessions and varied by subject.

>Adherence to the exercise program was defined as more than 75% of prescribed visits at the sports center (18/24).

adherance was defined as 75% of sports centre visits or above. which is a lot of variance in whether someone adhered to the exercise and doesnt really reflect their output of work done within the sports centre.

>Both diets were calorie-restricted (−500 kcal/day) according to the indirect calorimetry measurement
the diets were not calorie restricted uniformly (ie 2000kcals per day), but based on the participants weight which is an estimate at best and is impacted by their level of activity outside of the study.


>The intention-to-treat analysis was used, and all participants were included.
so all participants were used in the study regardless of their adherance to it

File: dr greger.png (354 KB, 1105x574)

354 KB PNG

TOTAL
GREGORITE
VICTORY

Humans are obligate hypercarnivores, that's the end of the discussion

>>77441876
convincing stuff

>>77441837
>"Nature" would include early 20th century China, where meat was practically never eaten by the lower classes

Theres your problem. You identify with fucking peasants due to your slave morality. The aristocratic/warrior classes from all around the world sustained themselves on flesh. The reason why

>Not sure how you got data about uncontacted tribes' diets without contacting them

This has to be bait at this fucking point. Sentinelese for example are an uncontacted tribe. There are uncontaced tribes that we can observe. Contact does not mean a lack of observation retard.

>but there definitely are examples where they are practically only eating plants

Show me some. Even if you can do there have always been famines.

>There was never a civilization that banned slavery until like 200 years ago bro lol

How does that make any fucking sense lmao?

>All the nutrition science says veganism is healthy accross all categories of evidence, excepting perhaps your anecdotes.

You literally cant absorb enough micronutrients from plant foods. Hell plant milks are rich in b12 specifically because they are fortified retard. Also you didnt respond to why eating flesh is ''immoral'' and according to whom.

>>77441872
alright? Is any of this supposed to render the study unreliable as evidence in favor of vegetarianism and against CICOn****tardation?
>the diets were not calorie restricted uniformly (ie 2000kcals per day), but based on the participants weight which is an estimate at best and is impacted by their level of activity outside of the study.
My mistake for misremembering it, but which methodologically makes more sense? Also, thanks to the randomization, the two groups started from identical average weights and a dozen other characteristics, so on average the actual caloric intake was almost identical between the groups.
Anyway once you learn to read you can google things like "isocaloric vegan diet intervention" if you're interested to look at other studies :)

I really hate how science is basically a religion these days, you have retards throwing out studies like fucking magicians in order to own the opponent. Feels like a battle of idols.
>'My golden calf is disproves your silver lamb!
>Oh yeah! Well I never believed in the silver lamb anyway, I believed in the copper doe!

>>77441890
there is no mention of identical average weights in the study. There is no mention of weight at all actually. Theres no mention even of the -500 calories being based on the subjects weight either desu. thats my mistake and something i assumed but it isnt mention mentioned anywhere.

>>77441755
Better to be strong for 60 years than weak for 80

>>77441887
>You literally cant absorb enough micronutrients from plant foods.
That sounds like a problem! Not enough micronutrients? They must suffer from reduced lifespans and worse health outcomes...
>Show me some. Even if you can do there have always been famines.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/paleopoo-what-we-can-learn-from-fossilized-feces/
>inb4 that's not a scientific source
Since you don't have academic access it's the only way you can see the results in detail.

File: base.png (54 KB, 678x475)

54 KB PNG

>>77441899
wait until you learn how to find the methods section

>>77441903
vegans are healthier and stronger than murdervores, stupid ketolard

>>77441907
Why would they be stronger if they dont murder

>>77441921
murdering animals is for cowards like jews trying to trick god with blood magic. hitler killed like 100k jews and was vegan

>>77441933
but he lost to carnivore chads

>>77441896
is this how ketolards and CICOn*****s cope with not having any scientific evidence for their murdervore delusions?

>>77441936
that's because he started eating meat again in 1942, stupid ketolard commie

>>77441904
>Since you don't have academic access
bold of you to assume, sheep.
>They must suffer from reduced lifespans and worse health outcomes...
If you must suffer in mediocrity go for it. live your long life. I'd rather die 20 years early, strong as an ox and fully vital, withoud reducing my capacity for life. Also, the extended lifespan can simply be attributed to the fact that they don't eat as much goyslop compared to rest of the population. Literally almost anything else is better than that. Even then, its not worth it. Also, still no reason as to why eating meat is immoral.
>>77441939
You treat science the way medieval peasants treated the church. Its ironically worse for science and the human species as a whole. Also I ain't a ketotard or a ciconigger.

>>77441947
>Also, still no reason as to why eating meat is immoral.
the jews do it. also black people love fried chicken
>You treat science the way medieval peasants treated the church
no, but perhaps you're projecting.

File: eyJidWNrZXQiOiAiYXJ0ZXJhL(...).jpg (526 KB, 1420x1920)

526 KB JPG

my work here is done

>>77441964
0 studies cited
0 points refuted
another day in the life of a master murdervore debater

>>77441907
Bold claim I'm gonna need you to back it up m80

>>77441972
>>77441957
this does not merit a response anon. plus you'd do well to stop worshipping studies that are more often than not have a conflict of interest.

Wow. Ketoschizo must be sleeping. He hasn't posted his retarded images all over your thread yet. He must finally be crashing from his meth bimge.

>>77442108
Who is this boogeyman you keep talking about? You bring up ketoschizos every post but nobody said anything about keto.
Also CICOniggers? Why censor it? Also do you actually think CICO isn't true? And if that's the case why should anyone take your word seriously?

>>77441755
This thread started out really good, but it devolved into a shit flinging contest anyway. Hope you guys can chill out and lower your cortisol levels.

>>77441788
You sure sound mad. You should go touch grass, then give it some thought and realize that everything I said is true. Humans are opportunistic omnivores, and the only species on the planet that actually has "feels" about their place in the web of life as the apex predator and dominant species on the planet. No other animal apologizes for being true to its nature. Only humans are burdened by the sense of morality that motivates vegans. Just understand that's all it is, and that the effects of veganism are explained by traditional class effects, not some "vegetables give you superpowers" fantasy they like to advance.

>>77442487
>ur mad
>science isnt real (thats why I can't appeal to or address any actual evidence)
>morality isnt real, humans should act like sociopathic animals just like the heckin based wolves eating sheep
>nutrition isnt real only marxism is but only when it applies to white people in the USA (white republicans bad), hispanic paradox? never heard of it
this is your brain on murdervore logic, everyone

>>77442487
why are you on /fit/ if nothing matters except for being a white liberal with money? go to a retirement home CNN watch party

>eat equal volumes of carb, fiber veggies, and meat
>this is somehow a jewish trick or feminism or something
Most of the time people say "low meat diet" what they actually mean is "stop eating nothing but beef patties in gravy with baked potatoes." It's from the assumption most Americans eat like that: sandwich with 1/2lb of meat and a bit of shredded lettuce, three patty cheeseburgers with a single tomato, the existence of the meal called "meatloaf," etc.

there's a concerted effort by the meat industry and their paid shills to convince the public that eggs are healthy, especially that dietary cholesterol doesn't increase blood levels of cholesterol, or that saturated fat isn't unhealthy
If you ever believed either of the above please realize you've been manipulated into an unscientific belief
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jfbc.13263
>Meta-analysis of 66 RCTs with 3,185 participants revealed that egg consumption can significantly increase TC, LDL-C, HDL-C, TC/HDL-C, apoA1/and B100
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33786032/
>The effect of diet on blood cholesterol concentrations has become controversial. We assessed whether industry-funded studies were more likely than non-industry-funded studies to report conclusions that were not supported by their objective findings. PubMed and Cochrane Central Register of Controlled Trials searches through March 8, 2019, yielded 211 relevant articles. The percentage of industry-funded studies increased from 0% in the 1950s to 60% for 2010 tp 2019 (P < .001). Of 94 non-industry-funded intervention studies for which the effect of egg ingestion on cholesterol concentrations could be determined, net cholesterol increases were reported in 88 (93%) studies (51% statistically significant, 21% not significant, 21% significance not reported). Among 59 industry-funded intervention studies, net cholesterol increases were reported in 51 (86%) studies (34% statistically significant, 39% not significant, and 14% significance not reported).

vegans are based

File: estimated daily fibre intake.png (194 KB, 1051x573)

194 KB PNG

>>77443398
>eat equal volumes of carb, fiber veggies, and meat
>It's from the assumption most Americans eat like that
95% of americans do not get the FDA's minimum recommended daily value of fiber.
>Most of the time people say "low meat diet" what they actually mean is "stop eating nothing but beef patties in gravy with baked potatoes."
The USDA's food pyramid recommendations were actually watered down to make them more palatable to the murdervore public. Instead of telling them the truth that NO meat is better than any meat, they wanted to nudge people in the right direction

I've never seen a healthy vegan.

I have a few vegan friends, they never seem to complain about the health issues my normal friends do though, like back pain, tiredness, and joint pain.

>>77443526
>>77443509
>>77443419
symptoms of ketotardation may include:
-inability to make high quality posts
-difficulty expressing ideas
-preference for single sentence shitposts
-difficulty with reading comprehension
-illiteracy
-unable to produce evidence for claims
-an irrational hatred and fear of science
-brown hands

>>77443541
I think you're probably just stupid, actually

>>77443568
ketolard intelectuals everyone

>>77441755
>blah blah blah
Unfortunately for you, no one gives a shit. Cry more.

Meat (yes, including fish) and dairy are a disease magnet. Every single person who ever ate fish even a few times in their life have consumed worms - predominantly dead ones. All sea shellfish and molluscs are polluted with dinoflagellate toxin - getting killed by it is a matter of time if you eat that shit regularly. Like tuna? Look up what mercury does to your neural system. All salmon has worms in it - yes, even farmed one. Flukes, worms, eukaryotes. Think freshwater fish is immune? Look up cyanobacteria. Cyanotoxins are classified as chemical weapons and freshwater reservoirs are full of that.

>inb4 I only eat land animals
most human-consumed mammal meat is a prion-disease risk. Prions are contaminating proteins who "infect" functioning proteins through what appears to be memesis but is not known exactly why. Prions survive on surfaces for over a decade and it takes caustic soda to remove them for good. Among most widespread mammals only dogs and other canines are immune to it. Prion disease among deer and other related species is becoming more prevalent and hunter deaths were reported. Cross species varieties were recorded - most infamous is the Mad Cow disease, originally from sheep suffering from scrapie. Did I even mention worms?

>but what about poultry and other birds
About a half of all chicken is contaminated by fecal matter - a hot spot of potentially deadly pathogens. All chicken are pumped with antibiotics which selects for more robuts strains that can become deadly. Most of such bacteria is present on the chicken during slaughter and it's impossible to remove it completely even with the most robust chemical decontamination techniques.

>>77441789
>Japanese people are rarely vegan
Japan had an imperial edict banning most meat since 675 until the 19th century. Japanese traditionally never ate dairy either.

>>77443937
wouldn't having a stronger immune system and burning calories fighting disease make you healthier? doesn't this mean vegans have weak ass immune systems that could get wiped out easily like the native americans?

>>77444009
Look up how immune system works. At best it can defend you from chicken pox if you had it as a kid, or from smallpox if you were vaxx't against it as a baby. You don't get immunity from Karenia brevis neurotoxin or anthrax (unless you want to get into the anthrax vax rabbit hole), nor can you get your immune system flush out pork roundworms without medical intervention. Most pathogens will kill you and no immunity will help you. And if you think otherwise - influenza is one of the most common viral diseases in the world with a seasonal prevalence. You recover from it every single time until you don't. Either secondary infection kills you or you die from an autoimmune complications as you get older.

>>77441755
This only applies to humans?
Carnivore animals are pretty healthy.

>>77444075
so.... yur saying we should eat raw meat off the living wild animal like a wolf?

>>77444075
>Carnivore animals are pretty healthy.
They aren't. Nearly all mammalian carnivores are pestilence bombs. Some species have adapted to withstand pathogens but only through millions of years of evolution - something most people don't have. The apex predators of the seas are the cetaceans and even they aren't safe because their bodies are polluted with mercury and they serve as hosts for a plethora of tapeworms, as well as barnacles and the whale louse.

>>77443526
They don't complain because they're scared of making their philosophy look bad

>>77444198
sounds better than black people who will complain about ANYTHING to try to get free fried chicken at KFC

>>77444198
most vegans who aren't obsessed with animal welfare don't care if you follow their "philosophy" or not. In their mind, if you're not getting type 2 diabetes, you're definitely getting hypertension and stoke.

>>77441755
I didn’t bother reading all that shit but all your points can be proven wrong by 15 seconds of googling so why do you even bother writing all that shit.

>>77444286
symptoms of ketotardation may include:
-inability to make high quality posts
-difficulty expressing ideas
-preference for single sentence shitposts
-difficulty with reading comprehension
-illiteracy
-unable to produce evidence for claims
-an irrational hatred and fear of science
-brown hands

File: Ural-Mountains-Russia[1].jpg (101 KB, 532x800)

101 KB JPG

>destroys vegans and any of their arguments

>>77444406
how's wildberries doing?

>>77444393
Alright you fucking cunt
>vegans get a nearly identical amount of protein to omnivores on average
Not true. Dietary studies consistently show that vegans consume a lower absolute and proportional amount of protein than omnivores (e.g., roughly 12% of total daily energy intake for vegans versus 18% for omnivores).
>B12 is in literally any plant milk.
Any B12 found in plant milks is added artificially through a process called fortification. Many brands add B12, but many others do not.

>>77441771
This is true. Because you have about 0 bioavailability with raw broccoli. Every cell in vegatables is surrounded by cellulose which humans can not break down

File: 29678.jpg (92 KB, 1022x1023)

92 KB JPG

>>77441755
I'm vegan

>>77441755
Most vegans really do have protein deficiency because protein is harder to come by and vegan protein tastes earthy like eating dirt. That’s why they have deflated physiques. Even if they have definition they look unhealthy. Eating meat like keto/carnivore is even more unhealthy though and it’s hard to be muscular because your body craves carbs to be athletic and the glycogen depletion shrinks them. Basically vegans and ketogenic “diets” are equally bad for

>>77441755
>vegans have the highest lifespans among any dietary group
>source: my ass

>>77441755
>vegans have the highest lifespans among any dietary group
Wrong. Pescatarians do.

>>77444738
>Dietary studies consistently show that vegans consume a lower absolute and proportional amount of protein than omnivores
yes, because vegans in general consume less food, and definitely not enough tempeh and tofu. That said, the negative health impact of animal foods as you age begin to outweigh the lower protein intake. Cardiovascular diseases take a far bigger death toll than sarcopenia. As the body ages, it becomes worse at clearing the cholesterol plaque in the arteries. Dying from lower muscle mass is a risk but a much higher risk is getting a stroke when you're +60.
>Any B12 found in plant milks is added artificially through a process called fortification. Many brands add B12, but many others do not.
This is true but it's not a big deal unless you live in a hut in the forest. That said, most B12 deficiency case have to do with the poor body absorption or parasite infection, not vegan diet. Besides, most multivitamin pills contain B12 plus there are single B12 supplement pills containing a daily standard dose of the vitamin for anyone. Oh yeah, even if you eat 180 grams of animal protein a day you'll also start becoming B12 deficient as you age, so it's not just a vegan problem.

>>77445126
This is not far off. If you look at the diets of olympic athletes during training it's mostly rice and grains. It's not magic - carbohydrates provide enough energy for you to exercise your muscle. If you just eat lots of protein you are eating the muscle building blocks but not providing yourself with enough fuel to actually put those building blocks into your muscle.
>>77445195
Depends on the type of fish (e.g. freshwater vs. pelagic, white vs. fatty), how it's cooked (if cooked at all), and how often it's eaten. Frequent fish eaters will get either zoonotic infection or chemical contamination sooner or later.

>>77445126
>Most vegans really do have protein deficiency because protein is harder to come by and vegan protein tastes earthy like eating dirt. That’s why they have deflated physiques.
[citation needed]
>>77444738
>Not true. Dietary studies consistently show that vegans consume a lower absolute and proportional amount of protein than omnivores (e.g., roughly 12% of total daily energy intake for vegans versus 18% for omnivores).
[citation needed]

>>77441755
>Keto aka the atkins diet
wrong

>>77445483
how exactly am I wrong? Both have the exact same dietary recommendations and claim you should be doing ketosis for energy

>>77445492
Carbohydrate Limits: Keto strictly limits carbs to under 5% to 10% of daily calories (usually under 20–50g daily) indefinitely. Atkins starts low (20g net carbs in Phase 1) but systematically increases carb intake through later phases.
Keto restricts protein intake more then atkins as well.

>>77441755

Even the biggest vegan shills and orgs will tell you to supplement with b12 lest you severely fuck yourself. You're 17 and retarded

>>77446041
I addressed B12. Irrelevent.
>>77446029
Thanks ChatGPT. I apologize for my slight inaccuracy. In any case, the findings of the Atkins study are still relevant to ketolards.

>>77443944

>Ainu people drank dairy and would trade with honshu
>Nigga doesn't understand Japanese culture

They ate meat, they just lied about it

>>77445195
>Wrong. Pescatarians do.
[citation needed]

>>77446043

>If I supplement then my unhealthy diet is healthy now

Yeah and if I ate the SAD diet and took a bunch of pills to not have a stroke, I guess that's healthy too huh? Horseshoe theory, you're thinking like a literal cheeto dust redneck

>>77446047
>Yeah and if I ate the SAD diet and took a bunch of pills to not have a stroke, I guess that's healthy too huh
No? First of all, empirically, you're inarguably wrong. You don't think boomers would take any pill to keep eating mayonnaise and McDonalds? It's not a matter of deficiency to be solved by a specific nutrient which makes animal products clog up your veins (stroke, heart disease, atherosclerosis, heart attack, etc).

>>77446047
2.
>if I ate the SAD die
what exactly is wrong with the sad diet in terms of macro and micro nutrients, and does veganism address this???? HUHH???

>>77446054

The fact remains if you did an un-supplemented pure vegan diet, you'd get all the severe effects of b12 after 3-5 years and die or suffer severe brain injury. Also the Inuit and other peoples have traditions of eating meat heavy or almost entirely carnivore diets and were shown to live long and healthy lives. So your diet is a dumb sham and you can get fucked

>>77446061
>The fact remains if you did an un-supplemented pure vegan diet, you'd get all the severe effects of b12 after 3-5 years and die or suffer severe brain injury
Agreed in principle but you overstate it. Yes B12 is a nutrition of concern *for vegans*, who btw have the longest life expectancies.
>Also the Inuit and other peoples have traditions of eating meat heavy or almost entirely carnivore diets and were shown to live long and healthy lives. So your diet is a dumb sham and you can get fucked
1. You haven't proven to me that the Inuit have high life expectancies and carnivore diets
2. HBD
3. ignoring HBD, adding your alleged inuit pool into the current evidence for/against veganism would not change the balance being in favor of veganism,
3b. source

>>77446061
>The fact remains if you did an un-supplemented pure vegan diet, you'd get all the severe effects of b12 after 3-5 years and die or suffer severe brain injury.
you should tell these guys
The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics state that appropriately planned vegetarian and vegan diets are safe and nutritionally adequate for all life stages, including infancy, childhood, and adolescence.

Key guidelines include:

Nutritional Adequacy: Diets must be carefully planned to ensure sufficient intake of protein, iron, calcium, vitamin D, zinc, and omega-3 fatty acids.
Critical Supplementation: Vitamin B12 supplementation is required for vegan children to prevent neurodevelopmental deficits and anemia. Vitamin D supplementation is often recommended, especially with limited sun exposure.
Infant Feeding: Breastfeeding is encouraged, with vegan mothers supplementing B12. For formula-fed infants, onions-based formulas are recommended; the AAP currently cautions against using strictly vegan or vegetarian commercial formulas for infants under one year without strict medical supervision.
Growth Monitoring: Regular pediatric monitoring is essential to track growth velocity and nutrient levels, as children have higher energy and nutrient needs per pound of body weight than adults.
Dietary Patterns: Lacto-ovo and lacto-vegetarian diets are generally easier to balance than vegan diets due to the inclusion of dairy and eggs, which provide bioavailable calcium, B12, and protein.

>>77446069

>Vitamin B12 supplementation is required

Which is what I said. You're fucking dumb

>>77446067
I'm not your butler, look it up on google or ask chatgpt you lazy bitch

>>77441789
just eat meat + ozempic = god tier combo

>>77446069
>you should tell these guys
maybe someone did because they updated their recs years ago to only include adults

>>77446741
>maybe someone did because they updated their recs years ago to only include adults
Ketolards just making shit up now after artistically screeching about B12 which was already addressed in the OP. Pathetic.
https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/149/6/e2021052598/186964/Vegetarian-Diet-Growth-and-Nutrition-in-Early
>Evidence of clinically meaningful differences in growth or biochemical measures of nutrition for children with vegetarian diet was not found. However, vegetarian diet was associated with higher odds of underweight.

>>77446061
>Also the Inuit and other peoples have traditions of eating meat heavy or almost entirely carnivore diets and were shown to live long and healthy lives. So your diet is a dumb sham and you can get fucked
>no I wont provide a source for that
>Inuit have a life expectancy that is approximately 12 to 15 years shorter than the average Canadian's, influenced by factors such as diet and limited access to medical services. This life expectancy gap has remained stagnant over time.
kek
>yeah just eat meat bro I read this story on reddit once about inuits only eating meat so uhhh... that debunks all nutrition science

>>77446061
>Previously, life expectancies had been calculated from nominal list data (no longer available) for Inuit in the former Northwest Territories (including what is now Nunavut) and in Nunavik (northern Quebec) for the years 1941 to 1950 through 1978-1982.2, 3 Life expectancy at birth for Inuit of the former Northwest Territories rose from 29 years in 1941 to 1950 (38 years less than for Canada overall), to 37 years in 1951 to 1960 (33 years less), to 51 years in 1963 to 1966 (21 years less), and to 66 years in 1978 to 1982 (19 years less).4 For Inuit in Nunavik, life expectancy in 1984 to 1988 was 14 years less than for the total population of Quebec.5
FUCKING KEK
29 YEAR LIFESPAN IN 1940
NICE PROOF FOR YOUR KETOLARD DIET LMFAOOOOOOO

>>77446061
>Also the Inuit and other peoples have traditions of eating meat heavy or almost entirely carnivore diets and were shown to live long and healthy lives.
what kind of bullshit is that? Inuits almost certainly don't live long and healthy lives. The average life expectancy in Nunvaut is below 71 years for men. That's 10 fewer years than for men living in Toronto. And don't tell me some bullshit about healthcare being better in Toronto. If Inuits are so fucking healthy they wouldn't need better healthcare up there.

>>77447833
That's only with modern technology and fruits and vegetables from white people though. Back in the ketolard traditional diet glory days before refrigeration they had an average life expectancy of 29!

>>77447836
Of cours! Inuits are traditionally hunter-gatherers and considering they live in the midst of literal fucking ice they'd need a lot of meat just to convert all that protein into energy through gluconeogenesis. Thankfully, harsh living conditions never allowed them to proliferate like rabbits, and their low life expectancy took care of that. We know from archaeology and recent history that all case mortality goes down everywhere where agriculture has been introduced. People almost always ate exclusively grains with only occasional dairy or meat until just around 70-80 years ago. We see a spike in obesity and obesity-related diseases only after the WW2 when more meat began to be consumed at a rate that the "healthy long-living" Inuits couldn't even dream of.

I’m an evil person who enjoys making fun of fat and sick people, especially when it’s “tough guys” who make eating meat part of their personal brand. I don’t know any fat vegans. I don’t promote veganism directly because I think it’s more effective to mock fat and sick people instead. Health scares are more likely to convert meatards.

Murdervores are fucking retarded
Not a single good argument against veganism or in favor of meat in this entire thread. Not a single study to back up ketolard claims.
Pathetic.

>>77446086
>>Vitamin B12 supplementation is required
>Which is what I said. You're fucking dumb
You're fucking dumb if you think drinking milk out of a pre packaged bottle that has B12 in it counts as "supplementation". You realize cows are supplemented with B12 in their feed? Are you "supplementing" b12 on a murdervore diet when you eat beef or dairy?

>>77447853
one doesn't have to be vegan to eat healthy. The problem is with the meat extremists who tell lies, sometimes being fed by meat and dairy lobby, denying real healh concerns especially about red meat and fish. It's totally OK to eat a steak once a month, a couple of eggs a week. But it's not OK to down a dozen eggs every day. This form of insane contrarianism is not only malicious towards animal welfare, it's directly responsible for public health going down the drain and all of the taxpayers are about to start paying for it in the next two decades because morons were too eager to swallow literal cancer fuel just to own the libs.

>>77447865
>you dont have to not smoke or drink to be healthy
>its perfectly ok to have a couple of beers a week, maybe one cigarette per month
Yeah sure. Dose makes the poison

>>77446069
>Critical Supplementation: Vitamin B12 supplementation is required for vegan children to prevent neurodevelopmental deficits and anemia.
B12 or its precursor - cobalt - is given to livestock to highten the vitamin's presence in meat and dairy. It is synthesized by bacteria and archaea that lives in the animal's colon. Humans can't produce it so they have to rely on fermentation to produce it. The most straightforward source of B12 outside animal guts are either lab vats or tempeh - which is just fermented whole basedbeans, which is a traditional side dish in Indonesia. How come anti-vegan extremists are so obsessed with "traditional" food only when it fits their narrative but completely disregard traditional dishes from Asia, such as tempeh and tofu, even though their invention predates that of bacon and burger?

>>77447873
I like beer but I'm not delusional about it. It's poison and it will kill me if I don't stop. Meat eaters will keep telling everyone that meat is a panacea against everything even though it's one of the primary causes of high cholesterol - even lean meat - and that in itself is a root cause of stroke and heart attacks.

File: Bacon_lovers_only.jpg (28 KB, 500x364)

28 KB JPG

>>77441755
>meat is unhealthy

>>77447833
>>77446061
esquimo data is bunk. Pre white contact they died hunting and freezing so life expectancy was shit, after white they died like every injun that gets whited, with beetus and booze.

>>77447996
idk maybe living in a rural shithole with no healthcare and generally shit diet has to do with it. Hunter gatherers have notoriously low life expectancy. If you look at where people live the longest it's the place where they eat a plenty of vegetables, grains and only moderate consumption of meat, e.g. Italy, Greece, Turkey, Japan, Korea, etc. Almost all societies where animal sourced food consumption is higher have lower life expectancy.

>>77448025
Isn't jap data also bad because they hide their dead elderly to keep cashing the retirement checks?
Also, higher meat consumption comes with high income, high sugar, high slop, high modernity and stress, low exercise.
I don't have a side in this discussion but there is no discussion here, just shit flinging.

>>77448067
>there is no discussion here, just shit flinging.
There would be if ketolards and CICOn******s were able to present or address any evidence. Unfortunately all they can do is shit like
>muh inuits

>>77448077
how old are you? I used to engage in recreational shitposting and shitflinging in the olden days of autistic atheists when i was 15

>>77448067
>Isn't jap data also bad because they hide their dead elderly to keep cashing the retirement checks?
Pension fraud is not even remotely as common as to cause distortion in data. That's like saying that the overall mortality data in the US can't be trusted because Chicago exists... Sure, it has some impact on the data but it's negligible at best. Aging, cancer, cardiovascular and diabetes are still far bigger killers than violence.

>4 active Moxyte threads as he keeps samefagging them

>>77448160
>>77448152
keep seething ketolards

>>77448077
>>muh inuits
kek

>>77441755
>bolshevik bait thread #35190

Did ketoschizo started to false flag again?

>>77448185
Hitler was a vegan. Keep eating your kosherrat fried chicken, Tyrone Bergstein. Murdervores and ketolards aren't allowed in hyperborea.

>>77448189
Hitler's stomach was injured by a gas attack in WW1, he still ate eggs, milk and ham on a daily basis and lamented not being able to eat meat.

Why do you lie?

>>77448189
do not look up the last names of meat packers CEOs

File: tyson.png (27 KB, 987x236)

27 KB PNG

>>77448191
>Hitler's stomach was injured by a gas attack in WW1, he still ate eggs, milk and ham on a daily basis and lamented not being able to eat meat.
jewish propaganda. I wonder (((who))) benefits from your jewish slander?

>>77448204
Why have you decided to leave /fat/ and shit the whole board with this false flag stuff, ketoschizo?

At least try to not be so obvious.

>>77448189
He most certainly was not. He was mostly vegetarian but still ate meat.

>>77448208
the whole pre-nazi shtick before WW1 was all about paganism, vegetarianism and nudism. It's a rabbit hole most super trad chudcels won't get into because it breaks their fantasy world about what the whole thing was really about. That said. Yeah, Hitler definitely wasn't a vegan. He was still largely a vegetarian.

>>77448208
He most ate eggs and ham, rarely some chicken because of his injure.

>>77448188
>>77448206
O B S E S S E D

>>77448216
Don't get so upset people are able to notice it's you, just eat healthily and you'll have the brainpower to not be so obvious.

>>77448213
A lot of the vegetarian thing was because Germany was getting raped paying reparations for WWI. Hitler was big on treating animals ethically but it was also financial necessity.
>>77448214
His favorite was liver dumplings.

>>77448218
I just got here, you mentally deranged faggot. You genuinely sound ill and possibly dangerous.

>>77448219
Leberknödel are pretty good.

>>77448220
You're not good at this, I know you're upset that GLP-1 drugs made keto completely obsolete in the only niche it had some value, but that's no excuse to shit up all of /fit/

>>77448219
>A lot of the vegetarian thing was because Germany was getting raped paying reparations for WWI.
not true, it was influenced by Theosophy, long predating the WW1. Nobody was seriously considering vegetarianism due to economy before or after. It was always some weirdo spiritualism. Zentralblatt für Okkultismus was founded in 1907, many others preceded it as well.

ketolards' arguments in this thread:
>muh jews (debunked)
>muh inuits (debunked)
>muh japan (debunked)
>muh B12 (debunked in OP)
>muh marxism (debunked)

vegan arguments in this thread:
>science
>intervention studies
>RCTs
>facts
>logic

murdervores are intellectually and morally bankrupt. Not surprising that 100% of wars and genocides were started by murdervores.

>>77441755
based and correct

>>77441755
>fiber
>nutrient
>the definition of fiber is what human bodies cannot absorb and goes right through the digestive system
kek keep coping and eat your magic fungus

>>77448616
You wish his fungus was magical, it's just fiber without any conscientiousness argumentative properties.

>>77448623
you're worse than a vegan, get out more

>>77448642
>you're worse than a vegan
Calm down my friend, no matter how many drugs one uses, it's league away from being as bad as a vegan.

>>77441755
You're here arguing over a magical device where if few 100s of people were to die it'd become lost technology because one day Grug learned how to cook meat. Ever since the agricultural revolution our brains started shrinking.
The food you eat contains the building blocks you too need, so naturally something closer to you is more nutritious, especially to a being unoptimized towards eating plants like human. Plants do not contain complete amino acid protein (for man).
Linking random correlative studies with tiny sample sizes doesn't prove anything, especially when 1 group is health conscious and the other encompasses the average brain damaged goycattle obesum.

>>77441755
>claims to be le main of sciencr
>CICOn******
This is really humorous and high quality bait.

>>77443937
>most human-consumed mammal meat is a prion-disease risk.

Kek. Did you get jabbed?

>>77448616
>Retard who has no idea what fibre is and why it's necessary for human health

>>77448651
>Linking random correlative studies with tiny sample sizes doesn't prove anything, especially when 1 group is health conscious and the other encompasses the average brain damaged goycattle obesum.
Randomized controlled trials? Intervention studies? Observational studies with 1000s of participants? You're just retarded and scientifically illiterate anon.
>The food you eat contains the building blocks you too need, so naturally something closer to you is more nutritious, especially to a being unoptimized towards eating plants like human.
Ok retard then I guess gorillas should be eating other great apes, and yet they're herbivores. And I suppose the healthiest thing for humans to eat would be other humans, why aren't cannibals the healthiest?

>>77441755
I disagree

>>77450014
Well then you're wrong

>>77450050
Nah, he's right and you are a stupid queer.

>>77450111
Low IQ and homosexuality do not prove me wrong

>>77441755
Squat, Bench, and Deadlift? Also post physique.

>>77444406
This. If you're not brown, your ancestors come from the frigid Eurasian steppes that are impossible to grow food on for over half the year. They were pastoralists, they BY NECESSITY consumed animals and animal products for thousands of years. End of argument. If you're brown, you are meant to subsist on fiberslop, and you should. Leave the real food to real humans.

>>77449880
Fuck you vegan retards and your runny nosed, snot licking obsession with what gorillas eat. How fucking stupid does eating lentils make you? Are you a fucking gorilla? No, you're a faggot. I want to wrap my hands around your sallow skinned, emaciated crayon neck and shake you back and forth. There is an undeniable disconnect from reality and from your own species that happens when you deteriorate in to eating food fit for a pigeon. It happens with every soft bellied, sallow, discoloured carrot sucking vegan that you will ever have the extreme displeasure of meeting: a retarded gay make believe world they demand you play with them in.
Everybody rightfully hates you cocksuckers and it's been extremely satisfying to watch your ideology die slowly over the past decade.
Nta