yes
>>77453902idk i dont eat bugslop unless its mongolian
>>77453917...there are no bugs in tofu.
>>77453925check the mirror
>>77453902Yeah, but it's like the question of>Can you build a house out of mud?You can, it's perfectly feasible and done all the time in certain parts of the world. Or, you can use more effective materials and methods to make something good instead of something passable.
>>77453955if you only eat vegetarian things then technically you're vegetarian
>>77453955>Every great Cathedral was built on a vegetarian dietAnd destroyed by men who sustained themselves on dairy and flesh. Cope harder faggot. Theres a reason why the average steppe rider could kill 10 fucking vegetarian peasants before he died
>>77454012forgot the picrel, but whatever the faggot left anyway
>>77454002>>77454012Holy shit, I didnt realize the mods were butt blasted homosexuals. The Cathedrals are still standing, your precious "steppe rider" was too busy getting diseases from sodomizing each other. You are the one coping and seething. Animal flesh eaters are so pathetic and stupid.
>>77454017Nice sticks and stones queer hahaha
>>77454051>The Cathedrals are still standingwith third world abduls in them lmao if you weren't such a pathetic cuck and had balls you'd want them to be razed.>your precious "steppe rider" was too busy getting diseases from sodomizing each otherhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean–Nogai_slave_raids_in_Eastern_Europe
>>77453931Done. Now what?
>>77454088Hmmm... it seems the saturation on my tablet display is completely whack
>>77454077Every Catheral I have been in is full of white people. What does slave trade have to do with monkeys giving each other sodomy sessions? Monkey countries are so inbred and retarded they think using some gay "trust me bro" link from kikepedia is an "gotcha". Keep rolling in the dirt with your precious cousins haha. Also animal flesh eating makes your retarded (You).
>>77453902The real answer is yes you can eat up to a few blocks a week and build muscle fine, but quantities in excess of that can cause shutdown and tr00ning. There are case reports.Shit genuinely tastes excellent with lots of meats and beans if seasoned right.>>77453917>i dont eat bugslopur loss bro bugs b gettin swole off ecdy n picrel n shit
>>77454120There is no connection to eating fermented beans and "tr00ning out". You are an idiot, the whole "trust me bro" queer shit is over.
>>77453909fpbp/threadI mog btw
>>77453902yeah it's proteinit's made using onions beans
>>77454017>the picrelyou should kill yourself>>77454319>onions beans???>>77453902no, the sⲟy molecules will enter your muscles and destroy them
>>774543294chan censors onions for some reasonit replaces it with onions
>>77454120>but quantities in excess of that can cause shutdown and tr00ning. There are case reports.There are, and they all use concentrated extracts. The amount you'd need to eat is impossible, 15kg of dry bean; 45000 kcal of bean, every day. Additionally, the observed effect was that of a SERM, not that of MTF HRT.
>>77454332>4chan censors onions for some reason>it replaces it with onions???I think the sⲟy has destroyed your brain
>>77454329>>77454332theꜱe niggaꜱ can't ꜱay ꜱoy topkek
>>77454329>Confused by one of the most recent 4chan censorsHoly newfag, Batman
>>77454503>illiterate faggot can't read more than a few words
>>77454506>Doubling down on his newfaggotry
>>77454514>tripling down on his illiteracy
>>77454516>Newfag can't count
>>77454521>newfag never been inb4'd
>>77454523>Newfag doesn't know how to properly inb4>inb4 you were being retarded on purpose
>>77454528>newfag still in the 'I'm following all the rules and doing it correctly" phasewew lad. seems like a permanent affliction these days
>>77454530>I was being retarded on purposeCalled it
>>77454542uh-huh. any explanation for this here >>77454503 ? or just admitting to being illiterate
>>77454088>>77454097i appreciate this. funny drawing! thank you
>>77454544Oh wow, you're THAT new, okay. "Holy _____, Batman!" is a reference to the Adam West Batman show, where Robin (Batman's sidekick) would have a running gag/catchphrase where he would exclaim "Holy [relevant term], Batman!". Ask your parents about it, they should be old enough to remember it.
>>77454560just retarded then, got it
>>77454562Damn, bro, it's a joke. You don't have to be so butthurt.
>>77454564>I was only pretendinglol
>>77454565>He thinks I have to pretendNot everyone is as ironypoisoned as you, big guy
>>77454569>>77454562
>>77454572>He gets this booty lasted from retards on the internetI'm very sorry, sir, I should've taken this internet business much more seriously
>>77454575>I can't simply admit when I was wrong but it is not me who takes this shit too seriouslykeep coping
>>77454575>minor spelling mistakeYou're done, bud>>77454580Hey bro, you totally bodied that newfagging nigga. Lemma put yo bawlz in mah jawz as a congrats
>Tofushill samefagging his thread to keep it on the front page
>>77454590>shilling for fermented beansThe internet has become so hyperbolic its insane. The animal flesh scam is over dude, let it go.
>>77454625>The animal flesh scamNow look who's being hyperbolic
>>77454097what brush did you use on the tofujak
>>77454654I used a simple binary pen. In CSP it's called "for effect" pen. It's a round brush with 0 softness and a little bit of pressure control for the size. It's ideal for quick shitposts because it works well with fill tools.
>>77453909with meat
>>77453902>anon is still mad about how amazing tofu isCope and seethe.
>>77453902This is why you never listen to mechanism. It is just speculation. Look at health outcome data. Tofu is skillful.
I just think Mapo Tofu is one of the best foods in the world
>>77459060Enjoy always being 20-30 years behind the latest research.
>>77459060>>77454237>>77454333>don't pay attention to those gay-ass mechanisms bruh it's safe to eat all the tofuACK.>Hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction associated with 50y product consumption>https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S089990071000359X
>>77459576>https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S089990071000359X>case review, not a study>mostly waffling about "possible mechanisms" (disproved in other older papers)>mentions inconsistency with reported literature>guy with a condition (but he's totally otherwise normal I swear!)this reply is dogshit and you should feel bad about yourself
>anons are scared of fermented beansis this board just lesbianmaxxing now?
>>77459603Here's another case review, now it's a study:>Secondary Hypogonadism due to Excessive Ingestion of Isoflavone in a Man>https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/61/19/61_8578-21/_article/-char/ja/>A 54-year-old man had been drinking approximately 1.2 L of 50y milk (equivalent to approximately 310 mg of isoflavones) per day for the previous 3 years. He then developed erectile dysfunction and gynecomastia.
>>77459690>both cases hinge milkso you're being contrarian even though I'm right about it being concentrated to have any effect? I think you should quit posting until you graduate high school, your literacy is poor.
enjoy your kidney stones
>>77453902Yes. I eat 2-3 blocks a week. Along with beans, legumes, nuts, seeds, and vegan protein powder. T. Vegetarian for 20 years, vegan for the last 4INB4 p0sT b0dY43yo, 5'11", 175lbs
>>77459970Now post an image that you didn't run through a sharpen filter to give yourself more fake definition.
>>77459970>>77459976>LiGhTiNg aNgLeS FiLtErSNo reason to eat animals.
>>77459990It's really noticeable how less impressive it is when you take away your edit with the contrast and sharpen filters.
>>77459990no reason not to eat animals
>>77453902>>77459993>>77459994>no reason not to eat animalsAnimal crueltyWorker exploitationEcological impactCardiovascular health and cancerInefficiency (growing food to feed to food)
>>77459990They taste good. That’s all the reason I or anyone else need.>>77459990
>>77459993Post body or admit he mogs you
>>77453902No, it would be very difficult to cook a muscle-eating brand of tofu
>>77460234>they taste good>I'm a slave to my senses (even if my values have to be realigned to account for the dissonance with my actions)Fixed that for ya.
>>77460234Nigger mentality.
>>77453902You can use tofu as your source of protein. Building muscle requires:>training with progressive muscle overload>a slight caloric surplus>sufficient protein>sufficient sleepSimply eating tofu will not build muscle by itself.
Oh snap, are tofu chads going to the top of the board? AGAIN?Cope.
>>77460225>>77460249Maybe next time dont filter your pics like a woman? Idk sorry man.
>>77453902Yes but this shit tastes like a sponge and your life will be miserable from eating eat. Chicken is a better non vegan alternative
>>77453902>>77461010>Can you build muscle?Yes. My stats as a 43yo tofu eater:DL: 385Squat: 295Bench: 239OHP: 160½-Marathon: 2:10:00500m Row: 1:50>>77461141>tasteTofu takes on marinades really well, especially if frozen and then thawed first. There are lots of great cooking tricks to be learned if you're interested in eating less meat for any reason.Also, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Incorporating meatless meals into any diet has benefits.
>>77461141chicken is vegan
>>77461683You seem really upset. Not sure why.
>>77461683No idea why you cited me in your reply. I didnt even mention muscle.
>>77460234>>77461741>>77461752Imagine eating animals.
>>77461794Imagine being a city slicker who can't just talk to a local farm topkek
ITT: People post "I'm better than you" on an anime website known for garnering the autistic.
i like fleshing out soups and stews with tofu. i still prioritize meat, but tofu is quite cheap and takes on flavor well. dont be a sissy high maintenance lifestyle lifter. use all the resources available to you.
>>77461808Every time I see a moxyte thread swell in replies I'm reminded of the time someone compared this site to "Adult Autist Day Care"
>>77454562>butthurt ESL mad he got called out for being a newfagtry again when you're 18 kiddo
>>77461683out of sheer curiosity: is going vegan cheaper for your wallet?t. poorfag
Right back to the topThe Tofu KingThe To Fuck UCope
>>77461814Its dirt cheap
>>77461810who is moxty bro? u okay lil king?
>>77453944Tofu is a complete protein and it requires civilization to produce it's more akin to a house made of marble
>>77461893lurkmoar newfag etcMoxyte is a prolific and schizophrenic reddit user, staunchly anti keto and pro vegan. He's been posting for years, and his posts are incredibly obvious once you know they exist.
>>77453902>>77454012>>77461741>>77461795>imagine being a city slickerMost people live in cities. Most meat is factory farmed
>>77461795>>77462495"Local" farms still send operate on cruelty, and most send their animals to industrial slaughter
>>77459990Flexitarian is the way. You will eat meat eventually. No need to raise your cortisol when that happens.
>>77461741>>77461752>>77461794There's no such thing as cruelty-free animal products. Luckily you don't have to eat meat,eggs, or dairy for health and fitness!
>>77462495>>77462502>>77462506sucks to be most people and "Local" farms I guess, but I don't have that problem. Maybe you should just look harder? Sounds like retard shit to me desu.
>>77462528Get a load of this guy!Thinks because he doesn't live in a city, his meat doesn't come from tortured beings!
>>77462536>it is impossible to know individuals who farmConfirmed retard shit. Quit being an antisocial sperg and meet your community. I ruled out plenty of crappy "Local" farms before I settled on buying from the folks and neighbors I do.
>>77462495>>77462502>>77462506>>77462536bet you this nigga thinks cow tipping is animal cruelty lel
>>77462538Guys, guys, guys, listen! It's ok, guys, listen. I mets the guy who, listen! I met the guy who castrates, brands, captive bolts, and kills my beef.He's a totally cool guy, guys. You just have to meet the people who torture animals.
>>77462543>can't cope with death as a conceptsad! many such cases!
>>77462543What's the vegan-approved religion? Some sort of eastern quackery, I would presume.
>>77453902You also need to lift but tofu does have a pretty high DIAAS.
>>77463164D. OtherE. None(Believing in invisible magic in 2026?)
>>77463726>Self-righteous vegan moralfag is a materialistLol.Lmao, even.
literature?
>>77462543>no guys if we heckin stoperino the farmers, animals will suddenly start living forever!
>>77459990>>77459970based and ethicalpilled
>>77459690>it being concentrated to have any effect?You can hit the same amount of isoflavones as that 1.2L of s()ience milk with a bit over a standard 14oz tofu block. This is why I say a few blocks a week is safe; that low an amount of isoflavone total does not have case reports of hypogonadal side effects, but going somewhat higher you start seeing it in marginally old/sick people.
>>77464501Vegan here, butYouSoundInsane
>>77454097Excellent work anon here’s your (you)
NO BODY POSTEDTOFU ANON MOGSeat your tofu!
>>77453902This thread is stull up?TOFU IS KINGCOPE AND SEETHE HAHAHAHAH
>>77454097kek
>>77464148Wrong board, but you're right
>>77464568>prolonged use of roids>>77464710>faced with completely reasonable post>can't counter it in any way>has to resort to name calling>writing one word at a timeWhy do you act like a fag?
>>77465865>Asking a tofu-obsessed vegan why they act like a fagSocio-economic factors, surely
>>77465865Sorry, but concern about isoflavones in edamame is just too pseudoscientific to take seriously. It's like worrying that creatine causes hairloss or that vegetables have "antinutrients." You sound like you get your information from TikTok and YouTube.>>77465882Aw, thanks for your concern about my socioeconomic status. It means a lot. I'm so good, though!
>>77466188Doubling down on the homosexual behavior is certainly a tactic.
>>77459576>>77459690>genetic freak one offs have an underlying condition nobody diagnosed, blame it on isoflavonesWeird how none of the review literature ever finds a real effect thoughbeit.
>>77466223me dun axe'd muh clankah but dis and uh...>Premenopausal Women: Meta-analyses suggest onions isoflavone consumption may significantly reduce circulating FSH and LH by approximately 20–24% and increase menstrual cycle length, although long-term randomized trials (e.g., 1-year interventions) have shown no significant changes in hormone levels or cycle length. >citing https://academic.oup.com/humupd/article-abstract/15/4/423/733861; https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11867507/; https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2161831324001613>no SIGNIFICANT>20-24% LH and FSH reductions>not "SIGNIFICANT"They are massaging the statistics to cover up documented effects that just aren't BTFOing gonads in generally healthy people at reasonable doses.
Milk contains estrogens. So do diary products: yogurt, cheese, cream, butter, etc.Do people that think onions feminizes you also think milk feminizes you? Or do they make an exception because they like the taste/mouthfeel?
>>77466236Amazing watching your mind work, really.
>>77453902yeah v3gan gains does ityofu is the main staple of a vegan keto diet
tofu is made using onionsi guess the fear of onions is no more
>>77466291Vg is a roiding retard.Tofu is just coagulated bean paste anyway. A bean with a particularly interesting aminoacid profile, truth be told. That said you can easily make a similar block at home out of any paste you want mixing beans, whole cereals, etc, curdling it with an acid. Like you could make tofu-like blocks of chickpeas+oats or whatever, seasoned with whatever you want.
>>77466308he was pretty jacked even before the steroids
vg started taking steroids when he realized he wasn't getting any bigger as a nattyi remember a video where he said "fuck it, i am just gonna get on gear"he probably got sick and tired of plateauing
>>77465882They say it doesn't affect hormones, then go on to write the gayest most effeminate sounding post I've read all day. Same reason I don't trust anons who shill anti hairloss drugs.>>77466188Again with the effeminate posting style. I'll keep eating tofu with extreme moderation.
>>77466268wrong
>>77459576>>77459690>is a SERM in yuo're pathhttps://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11603644/https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07315724.2001.10719168https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11784794/https://www.researchgate.net/publication/298848707_Soy_isoflavones_-_Benefits_and_risks_from_nature%27s_selective_estrogen_receptor_modulators_SERMsThat's why it causes lowered libido 4head
I put tofu on my pizza, animal flesh eaters are losing Their/They shit. They/Them even had to make a mumbo jumbo thread to cope and seethe haha
>>77466322
>>77466332>hallucination machineso it doesn't have any, got it.
>>77466353It literally links the studies...Look man you can do whatever you want. But if you actually care about reaching some semblance of truth, the path would be something like:>do I care about food containing hormones?>if so, what foods do contain them?>what effect has been demonstrated those foods have on populations?If you just want to arbitrarily hate on one specific food for containing hormones but not others you are entitled to that but there is no conversation to be had, you are just a brainless monkey
>>77466360>It literally links the studies.Which you clearly read, which is why you quoted them, right?
>>77466743>moving the goalpostMilk contains estrogen.Diary contains estrogen.Cow meat contains estrogen.Chicken meat contains estrogen.Do as you please.
>>77466772So no then
>>77466772>hasn't read the papers he's trying to citeconcession accepted
>>77460225>Animal crueltyNothing cruel happens to the cows I eat>Worker exploitationNo workers are exploited to raise the cows I eat >Ecological impactRaising any food including plants has an ecological impact. What specifically is the impact you're trying to prevent?>Cardiovascular health and cancerCorrelation=/=causation >Inefficiency (growing food to feed to food)I can't digest grass though. The food that's "grown" to feed cows is either grass, hay, or byproducts from other industries that would otherwise be wasted, none of which do humans consume Are there any good reasons?
>>77460271Values are arbitrary determinations."I should do what feels good." is a value just as much as, "I should not eat animals." What makes your values better than someone else's when we remove the context of you coming up with them (because you have no properties that make you special with regards to arbitrarily selecting values, for anyone but yourself)
>>77466907Tell me about the magic cows you eat anon. Are they groomed by virgins in the golden temples of the Himalayas while incense burns and they are fed grapes and figs?
>>77466916>Asking a materialist to justify his worldviewHave fun!
>>77466925They're fed grass and forage, their natural diet.
Nice. Must tatse good - I'm not that other guy btw, I was just being playful.
>>77466907>>77466925Yes! Please!Tell us where you're getting meat from animals who are able to live free in community without castration, dehorning, tagging, branding, culling, and calf separation.Tell us about the slaughter methods that don't instill fear, panic, pain, and suffering.Tell us about the slaughterhouse that doesn't exploit migrant and undocumented workers and that doesn't hide its working conditions behind ag gag laws and a workforce policed by omertà.Tell us about the meat you eat that isn't part of the 60% of the entire planet's biomass that lives in agricultural captivity, excreting more sewage than all of humanity (and the tiny fraction of wild animals) which goes untreated into piles and ponds to poison air and waterways. Tell us about your meat that comes from cows that don't belch 15% of all greenhouse emissions even before processing and transport. Tell us about the meat you eat that doesn't fester in your 30-foot digestive tract, contributing to cancer, heart disease, atherosclerosis, and dementia.Tell us about the meat you eat that isn't taking up 80% of the arable land that could be growing fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, and grains for human consumption. Tell us about the meat and dairy you eat that doesn't benefit from lobbies and subsidies that are withheld from fruit and vegetable farmers. And if you can tell us about this magical meat, then please tell us if it is available at scale. Because scale is the root of much of these problems. Of course the world would be a better place, if we could all be assured that old Bessie lived a full life with her calves before it was finally her time to return to the Circle of Life. But eating meat at scale demands exploitation and torture.
>>77466959That's a lot of words to say "I live in a city and can't be fucked to drive out to see my nearest farms" kiddo
>>77464147>>77466931>materialistMetaphysical materialism? As opposed to what? Panpsychism? This is health and fitness message board.>>77466916This is a weird one...>values are arbitrary>hedonism is equivalent to generosity>sadism is as valid as compassion>war is no better nor worse than peace>a diet that demands mechanized death is equivalent to one that doesn'tOk
>>77466916>my worldview does not value nor find intrinsic value in life or being aliveIt's okay to say the words "I'm selfish." You don't need to dress it up in pseud philosophy babble. It doesn't give you any more authority.
>>77466965Aww, I knew that many words would be hard for some of you. But I forgot to accommodate the special learning needs of the tiny minority who don't live in a city. See, we require scale (big), and you can't feed meat to 350M Americans ('MURKANs) without the concessions (drawbacks) of factory farming.
>>77466973>I have never taken a college level agriculture and environment classI accept your concession
>>77466959I didn't read all that since by the first few sentences, it was clear that it was a vitriolic rant. You should learn not to be so incensed about what other people eat.
Wow, this thread is still up and vegetarian/vegan bro is still the only one who actually posted his body. Basically confirms that people who are actually fit do what works for them and their lifestyle while all the people flinging shit in threads, like this one, trying to convince you one way or another are fat and don't exercise.
>>77466999>politics thread>heh, post body chudyou are probably brown
>>77467001>/fit/Do you know where you are?
>>77453902Protein is protein. As long as you're getting enough then there is no difference; it all gets broken down into the same amino acids once it hits your stomach. Anyone who tells you that there's a significant difference between protein types is a shill.>b-but muh bioavailabilityI'm not going to look up the exact numbers but if tofu is theoretically 20% less bioavailable than whey, you can literally just eat 20% more tofu and you end up with the same thing. Rather than min maxing the type of protein you eat, just make sure you're getting enough regardless of where it's coming from.
Another day to not eat rotting animal flesh and not be a fat disgustng piece of garbage. Thank you, God and Tofu.
>>77466966Calling it weird doesn't resolve anything, you dumbass.>>77466970Typical bread brain resorting to personal attacks and making assumptions rather than addressing the argument. You need nutrients!
>>77467515It's not a personal attack to call you selfish. There is no moral judgement in that statement, you assigned that there yourself. I'm sorry you're insecure about being selfish. You're still trying to do the pseud thing though, you should really cut that out.
>>77466959>Tell us where...Your standards for cruelty are distinct from mine. The animals I eat don't endure senseless suffering. They live better, more stress free lives than essentially every wild animal.>slaughter methods...One day they're almost entirely painlessly killed, which again is unlike anywhere else in nature. What would normally eat a cow and what would its death process look like? If your concern was limiting suffering you would be in favor of domestication.>slaughterhouse...Around here we have something called mobile slaughter. Someone comes to your property, kills the animal (ever seen no country for old men?), and roughly processes it so it's ready for a butcher.>60% of the entire planet's biomassObviously what I eat is "part of the planets biomass.">sewageI think you mean fertilizer. Cows and grass fields, and the plants you eat, have an ecologically beneficial relationship. The alternative is petroleum based synthetic fertilizer which is worse ecologically and isn't renewable.>goes untreated into piles and ponds to poison air and waterways. I don't live in India.>cows belch greenhouse gas!Which helps grow your plants.>meat festers in your gut!No it doesn't. It gets digested like anything else.>epidemiology...Poorly controlled correlation studies aren't compelling >arable land that could be growing fruits, etcNot all "arable land" is the same.>grains for human consumption.lol pass>lobbies and subsidiesComplain to politicians about it, not my problem.>eating meat at scale...This reads like, "solve every problem as defined by me before doing anything!"
>>77467518Calling someone a pseud and completely avoiding addressing their argument is a personal attack.I'm not a hedonist. You're retarded and can't grapple with arguments.
>>77467554I did not call you a pseud, I said you used pseud philosophy babble. I'm sorry you're insecure about that too, but at no point was your character insulted. You seem to have a very poor reading comprehension.
>>77467630You just keep doubling down instead of ever addressing the argument.
>>77467639I did thoughbeit, I implied that what you said can be summed up by >>77466970Point 1: like >>77466966 mentioned, you posit that values are arbitrary, and therefore not killing is equivalent to killing.Point 2: you use this as a justification to eat meat because you like it (>>77460234).Point 3: this is selfish. you are arguing you prefer to benefit personally, regardless of a cost of life to something else. Regardless of any morality about life, this is inherently selfish.Point 4: Dressing it up with pseud philosophy speak doesn't lend your point any more authority.You seem to have INCREDIBLY poor reading comprehension. It would be rude to assume this is because of a mental impairment, so I fear I'm talking to a child. Keep up the good work kiddo, your school's debate club has a hell of an asset in you, but this website is 18+.
>>77462495>>77462502>>77462506>>77462536>>77462543I can't lie, I hate this shit. It's just horrible. Vegans are annoying as hell but it's hard to deal with seeing this.
>>77453902kinda, but you have to choose either longevity or muscle growth. You can't have both because more protein = more cancer, shorter life.
>>77459690Cows milk has a shit ton of bioavailable estrogen though?
>>77467654>I did thoughbeit, I implied that what you said can be summed up by >>77466970 #It can't. You turned a negation into an entirely different positive argument. I wasn't arguing for hedonism. But you can't read.>Point 1: like >>77466966 # mentioned, you posit that values are arbitrary, and therefore not killing is equivalent to killing.Values being arbitrary is simply a fact. One you still haven't even attempted to negate.>Point 2: you use this as a justification to eat meat because you like it (>>77460234 #).No, I'm not a hedonist.>Point 3: this is selfish. you are arguing you prefer to benefit personally, regardless of a cost of life to something else. Regardless of any morality about life, this is inherently selfish.Nope. But what's your actual case against what you call selfishness? Are you like the other guy and hinge your argument on, "it's weird"?>Point 4: Dressing it up with pseud philosophy speak doesn't lend your point any more authority.I haven't said anything complicated. This response to my argument is more of a reflection of you.>You seem to have INCREDIBLY poor reading comprehension.Very ironic considering you're arguing against what you falsely attributed to me rather than what I actually said.>It would be rude to assume this is because of a mental impairment, so I fear I'm talking to a child.You're obviously mentally impaired by your philosophy. It renders you assmad and incapable of even reading.>Keep up the good work kiddo, your school's debate club has a hell of an asset in you, but this website is 18+.So your entire argument boils down to:"You have qualities x,y,zI find that weird or disqualifying"With no comment on my actual argument.Pathetic.
>>77467683You sure talk a lot about your argument without explaining what it is. I'd assume if it were so simple and great you'd have done so by now.
See >>77466916Values are arbitrary determinations."I should do what feels good." is a value just as much as, "I should not eat animals." What makes your values better than someone else's when we remove the context of you coming up with them (because you have no properties that make you special with regards to arbitrarily selecting values, for anyone but yourself)
>>77467515>values are subjective>Nooooo you can't insult me based on your values!!!Goes both ways idiot. Most people are against animal abuse, it's why they make up retarded excuses for why they eat meat such as "muh protein" because otherwise they would be contradicting their worldview. Saying "I'm okay with animal abuse" makes you sound like a psycho in most social situations and will respond in being properly judged by the majority who don't hold that view.
>>77467705>>values are subjective>>Nooooo you can't insult me based on your values!!!You can clearly insult me, it's just not an argument.>Most people are against animal abuse,I'd agree with that. I'm also against animal abuse. We'd likely disagree on how abuse is defined however. But more importantly, why is "what most people think" relevant, and how do you reconcile that most people think eating meat is fine if that's your standard?.it's why they make up retarded excuses for why they eat meat such as "muh protein" because otherwise they would be contradicting their worldview.Alright. I haven't made those arguments though.>Saying "I'm okay with animal abuse" makes you sound like a psycho in most social situations and will respond in being properly judged by the majority who don't hold that view.I agree with that too, but the reason is because humans use animal treatment to some extent as a proxy for potential human treatment. The reason it gives people the creeps if you're okay torturing a bunny is because you might also be a serial killer, or someone who could be one because of your lack of empathy. But again, I'm against animal cruelty also. And yet I'm not against eating meat, because I don't think cruelty is a necessary component in carnivory. That's probably because I'm not feline. Ever seen a cat torture a mouse or bird to death? I've never done anything like that. But I probably eat about 3/4 of a cow per year.
I'll give you vegans/vegetarians a hint. If you want to engage in compelling rhetoric that will actually convince omnivores/meat eaters of your view, you have to appeal to their value system, not yours.I don't care about your value system.Unfortunately for you, depending on that value set, it may be impossible. But for example many people put human flourishing at the bottom of their value hierarchy. So you could find a way to appeal to that. Some people like myself are virtue ethicists, so you could potentially appeal to that. But saying, "according to my values it's wrong," is not compelling.
>>77466907>>77467551>farm animals live better lives than wild animalsThe end of factory farming isn't about releasing farm animals into the wild. It's about never having bred them in the first place. The fact that most animals on earth are in captivity to be eaten is UNREAL and would trigger alarm bells in any primary school-age child or compassionate adult. >mobile slaughter>fertilizerYou fundamentally don't understand what it takes to feed meat to 350M Americans. Your precious bucolic local farm with a loving, respectful relationship among animal, farmer, and consumer is a tiny exceptional minority of farming. Farming is [by a huge margin] factory farming.
>>77467720Saying "These are just my values" isn't making an argument. So I'm not sure what you're responding to. >we'd likely disagree on how abuse is defined howeverI would say exploiting/needlessly taking the life of a sentient individual is abuse. I'm sure this falls into your definition as well. >why is "what most people think" relevantIt's not. I'm simply baiting and pointing out your hypocrisy because I knew you would respond with "I'm also against animal abuse" as do most people. >The reason it gives people the creeps if you're okay torturing a bunny is because you might also be a serial killerNo people don't like seeing animals get hurt regardless if a human is causing it or not. >because I don't think cruelty is a necessary component in carnivoryNeedlessly taking the life of something that doesn't want to die is cruel.
>>77467683The argument is typically that preservation/maximization of total life is best for the sustained health of our species. Nearly all evolutionary sim theories demonstrate selfishness as a generally lower-tier, poorer long term survival strategy. The understanding of how this expands to the environment and ecosphere in which humans live is trivial, as humans benefit more when the environment is healthy and capable of producing more. Diets which minimise total ecological damage, which includes the least killing of larger species responsible for freeing trapped nutrients like ruminants; poultry; and fish; are inherently better for the human species as a virtue. In this way, it's not about "killing being amoral" so much as it is about "killing more is worse for the species." Any set of values which does not inherently value the preservation of the species to which you belong (and by extension your individual). You could make the argument that "actually valuing making life worse for everyone is exactly the same as making it better for everyone" but that would make you retarded.
>>77467731Are you okay with farming humans in the same way we do animals?Can you name the trait present/lacking in humans that if present/lacking in animals would allow the same treatment?
>>77467741>I would say exploiting/needlessly taking the life of a sentient individual is abuse. I'm sure this falls into your definition as well.It doesn't. The act of painlessly killing an animal after it's lived a relatively carefree life eating its natural diet and having veterinary care, is not abuse in my opinion. Abuse according to my worldview is about causing unnecessary suffering, and I don't anthropomorphize cows to the extent required to assume they have existential crises over living in a fenced in area, or confronting their mortality or purpose, etc >No people don't like seeing animals get hurt regardless if a human is causing it or not.Personally I don't have any feelings about a predator killing prey. I don't like it or dislike it. It's just a thing that happens. And I view humans as the apex predators of the entire planet.>Needlessly taking the life of something that doesn't want to die is cruel.I wouldn't agree that it's needless or cruel. The purpose is food, and it doesn't fit my definition of cruelty, as previously outlined.
>>77467760>in my opinionBut you did not ask the animal.>and I don't anthropomorphize cows to the extent required to assume they have existential crises over living in a fenced in area, or confronting their mortality or purpose, etc and if research came out to suggest they do, you'd change your mind?
>>77467753>Are you okay with farming humans in the same way we do animals?It depends on what you mean by farming. I'm fine "exploiting their labor," for example, which some consider cruelty not unlike how you'd view animal cruelty, but I'm not in favor of using humans as a food source.>Can you name the trait present/lacking in humans that if present/lacking in animals would allow the same treatment?The trait present in humans is membership of my own species, which is a social species that generally is not cannibalistic. I can imagine a scenario where humans evolved differently and I wouldn't judge against it though.
>>77467766>But you did not ask the animal.That's true.>and if research came out to suggest they do, you'd change your mind?I suppose it would depend on the research.
>>77467737>The end of factory farming isn't about releasing farm animals into the wild.I understand that. I'm not arguing for it either. I'm arguing that relative to other omnivores/carnivores, humans go out of their way to reduce cruelty. In the "natural state" as opposed to the "human engineered state" there is much more suffering in my opinion.>The fact that most animals on earth are in captivity to be eaten is UNREAL and would trigger alarm bells in any primary school-age child or compassionate adult.Yet most people eat meat, so I'm not as sure as you.>You fundamentally don't understand what it takes to feed meat to 350M Americans. Your precious bucolic local farm with a loving, respectful relationship among animal, farmer, and consumer is a tiny exceptional minority of farming. Farming is [by a huge margin] factory farming.These are large problems that I'm not capable of fixing. But I also think some of the argumentation in this vein is either irrelevant or overstated. I don't find the fact that cows fart and burp to be a good argument for example.
>>77467752>The argument is typically that preservation/maximization of total life is best for the sustained health of our species.I mostly agree with that. I'd consider myself an environmentalist to some extent and believe we should reduce the amount of species extinctions humans cause.>Nearly all evolutionary sim theories demonstrate selfishness as a generally lower-tier, poorer long term survival strategy.Yeah, things like fishing away everything in a river is clearly a negative long term, and the activity should be controlled.>Diets which minimise total ecological damage, which includes the least killing of larger species responsible for freeing trapped nutrients like ruminants; poultry; and fish; are inherently better for the human species as a virtue.Sure. Farming and ranching alike should be done as sustainably as possible. But isn't that why we breed cattle in the first place? And control hunting and fishing?>In this way, it's not about "killing being amoral" so much as it is about "killing more is worse for the species." Any set of values which does not inherently value the preservation of the species to which you belong (and by extension your individual). You could make the argument that "actually valuing making life worse for everyone is exactly the same as making it better for everyone" but that would make you retarded.I believe I understand your argument but I'm missing the step that determines, "therefore you should not eat cattle"
>>77467802>Yeah, things like fishing away everything in a river is clearly a negative long term, and the activity should be controlled.I think you've confused "not mass killing" and "sharing" as the same thing. A better comparison would take more time than a 4chan post can demonstrate, which is why I recommend actually reading a few papers in the field of evolutionary game theory.>Sure. Farming and ranching alike should be done as sustainably as possible. But isn't that why we breed cattle in the first place? And control hunting and fishing?Sustainably doesn't just include the bred cattle, it includes the plant son edge of the pasture influenced by the soil quality of the pasture, in a way that the cows impact far more land than they occupy themselves. In this way, cattle agriculture actually degrades the environment in areas where this is not expected, like across great swathes of North America as a result of the agriculture industry. The amount of cows in North America is unsustainable, in a way that isn't reflected by the dietary habits of those who live there, nor int heir willingness to pay for imported beef. Much of the US that is farming isn't well suited to agriculture AT ALL, which is where the pesticide and fertilizer and water problems come from. The same is true for chickens, which is why factory farming occurs. Fishing is an entirely different unsustainable problem because of core methods by which it is performed and limitations imposed by social demand for specific types of fish.>I believe I understand your argument but I'm missing the step that determines, "therefore you should not eat cattle"Again, the amount of cows currently supported by the agriculture industry (and the payouts from the government they receive) is not supported by the environment.
>>77453902As long as you can downhill drift with tofu in the back without spilling your cup of water, then yes.
>>77467768>It depends on what you mean by farmingBreeding, exploiting body(eggs/milk), killed for meat/skin>The trait present in humans is membership of my own speciesLike DNA? Why? Thats pretty dumb. A hypothetical species that looks and acts like humans suddenly losing their right to life due to "muh species" is pretty retarded when considering that trait isn't something you can tell by looking at or talking with someone, such as a science fiction race like kryptonians or saiyans(minus the tail). It's arguably worse logic than racists because at least they have a visual difference they can go off of. But something like DNA and genes is something you might never even notice even if your neighbor was an alien.
>>77467879>Breeding, exploiting body(eggs/milk), killed for meat/skinIn that case, no. I don't endorse farming humans for any of those things.>Like DNA? Why?My ethical system requires partiality. For example I have a much greater requirement to enrich my children than anyone else. And more obligation to my family and friends than to my neighbors. And more to my neighbors than a person across the country. And more to my countrymen than to those of other nations. And more to humans than non human animals. But everything living has some degree of obligation attached to it. For example, I don't kill spiders in my home. I catch them in a container and put them outside.>A hypothetical species that looks and acts like humans suddenly losing their right to life due to "muh species" is pretty retarded when considering that trait isn't something you can tell by looking at or talking with someone, such as a science fiction race like kryptonians or saiyans(minus the tail).I'm not sure. This sounds like borderline suicidal empathy though. Some Saiyans and Kryptonians would wipe out humanity without much thought, because they recognize themselves as distinct from us. Saiyans can breed with humans (not sure about Kryptonians, but probably) so they probably deserve greater ethical consideration than other non humans because of their compatibility with us.>It's arguably worse logic than racists because at least they have a visual difference they can go off of. But something like DNA and genes is something you might never even notice even if your neighbor was an alien.Who says I'm not racist?
I had tofu on my pizza day, it was really good. Have a bump.
>>77467737this chart is maddening if true
I had some fried tofu with my fruit this morning, it was delictious.
>>77467965>My ethical system requires partiality. For example I have a much greater requirement to enrich my children than anyone else. And more obligation to my family and friends than to my neighbors. And more to my neighbors than a person across the country. And more to my countrymen than to those of other nations. And more to humans than non human animals. None of that has anything to do with DNA and kind of destroys your point of only granting something the right to life because of its species. You would advocate for your neighbor if someone was trying to enslave them, but according to your logic would suddenly flip a be okay with it if you found it he wasn't actually human. Life and death being based on something that you would never even know without doing a DNA test on them is just a silly way of life for me. >This sounds like borderline suicidal empathy thoughI was simply using it for a mental image on how individuals could blend in with the human race and you would never know without a DNA test. >because of their compatibility with us.>Who says I'm not racist?Yeah thats kinda obvious with those statements and your previous statements
>>77469272>delictious
>>77459970>>77459990>>77461683>No timestampsYou guys just fall for anything
>>77469416>oh no, the unimpressive physique isn't timestamped
>>77469468you know the rules buddypost body
>>77469519You need to tweak your bot
>>77469281>None of that has anything to do with DNAYou're the one who brought up DNA. I don't need it to have anything to do with DNA. But it obviously does reference DNA if I have more obligation to my children, then my family, over everybody else, and it radiates out from there to less proximal relationships.>and kind of destroys your point of only granting something the right to life because of its species.It's not a "point" but a preference. Values are just preferences, arbitrarily selected, like I said. I could just as well choose to value all life equally and do things like advocate for the death penalty if someone kills a dog. But that would be insane from my point of view. I could also pretend a human life is equivalent to that of an ant life, which would also be insane from my point of view, but perhaps granted in yours.>You would advocate for your neighbor if someone was trying to enslave them, but according to your logic would suddenly flip a be okay with it if you found it he wasn't actually human.If I had a skinwalker living next door I'd probably advocate their removal by whatever means necessary.>Life and death being based on something that you would never even know without doing a DNA test on them is just a silly way of life for me.Okay.
>>77469538>no body postedconcession accepted, carry on posting useless opinions, lardass
>>77464568This deranged retard has enough audience to live off of?
>>77453902mapo tofu is great
>>77470629Hrrrrngh
