"Everything is a file" is a retarded and unintuitive concept in the context of graphical operating systems. It made more sense in the 60s and 70s when computers were just overglorified typewriters and manipulating files and interacting with the operating system was simplified under a purely command line environment, but once directories became abstracted as folders it made less sense and just made it feel more needlessly complicated instead of having dedicated registries and configuration interfaces. The UNIX world has spent the past 30 years trying and failing to implement similar abstractions to their interfaces and hide the ugly filesystem hierarchy standard just to keep up with Windows. You know deep down it's true
and? what is your solution to all this??
has nothing to do with GUI. to get memory page size (like 4096) on GNUnix, you need to.. read files? wheres memory, where are files? very different.similar goes with other stuff, like IPC, GNUnixoids like to do.. sockets? really? where is network where is IPC.it is also not really about unix philosophy being wrong, ive read those principles and they often go across GNUnixoid practice.
>>108997433>what is your solution to all this??OS/2, Windows, ReactOS, anything that isn't UNIXSlop has already solved these issues
>>108997440>has already solved these issuesAll those you mentioned use the term directory and folders interchangeably. What exactly did they solve?
>>108997468They traded the "everything is a file" paradigm for a centralized registry and dedicated configuration interfaces distinct from the filesystem itself
>>108997481Why does the windows registry look like a directory tree, tho?
>>108997438I/O registers
>>108997494To make it easier to read. Regedit just makes it look like that, in reality they're even less readable but you're not meant to directly interface with it anyways
>>108997368What difference does that make, when everything they built on top of Cutler's lovely kernel was a massive pile of shit?
>>108997530You say this as if most modern Linux distros aren't just failed attempts at abstracting the kernel and filesystem hierarchy standard behind loads of bloatware desktop environments, init interfaces, package managers etc
>>108997440And all they do is objectively shit and much much worse.So your solution is something that is complete bullshit and a technological regression.
>>108997508the windows registry is nothing more than a virtual filesystem>they made it a directory tree with files because its easier to work withdoe
>>108997549do you have a better solution?
>>108997368>Linux>want to get the memory map of a process>need to open some bullshit in /proc/pid/blahblah/map or something>parse some TEXT FILE (lmao) to get the data you want>what happens if the map of the process changes while you're reading halfway through the file? who knows lol>Windows>want to get the memory map of a process>call VirtualQuery a few times>each call is guaranteed to be self-consistent>all data is returned in a struct you can directly use
>>108997701>map changes while VirtualQuery does god knows what>*blue screen*
>>108997721Each call to VirtualQuery is guaranteed to return self-consistent data (for that one call only). The kernel acquires a lock while it is reading the data.>does god knows whatthe source code for the Windows kernel is publicly available on github
>>108997737>its self contained and aquires a lo..ACK
Not everything is a file. When I new some dynamic memory, I work with pointers to data, not file handles. Syscalls like reading the time talk direct to the kernel and don't work like files.
>>108997737anon, windows VirtualQuery is known to randomly crash your shithttps://cplusplus.com/forum/windows/94627/
>>108997440>ReactOSLost me there anon. Not going to buy what you're seeling.
>>108997762>is known to randomly crash your shityou just hallucinated this infoyou can scroll to the bottom of the thread and find that the program crashes not because of VirtualQuery, but because he incorrectly assumed that a guard page is safe to read just because it has the "readable" attribute.If you access a guard page in a way that is compatible with its other access protections, then your application will receive a STATUS_GUARD_PAGE_VIOLATION exception, which you need to handle. If you do not handle the exception, as with all other exceptions, the app crashes.
>>108997368Yes, I agree but oh well. I'm still using Linux regardless.
>>108997800>you just hallucinated this decade old forum threa... ACK
>>108997824>linuxtrannies are this illiterate
>>108997368>The UNIX world has spent the past 30 years trying and failing to implement similar abstractions to their interfaces and hide the ugly filesystem hierarchy standard just to keep up with WindowsYou mean Smalltalk?
>1990s OS design is superior to 1970s OS design
defend this shitty system.It's so bad that kludges like SELinux and Extended ACLs are needed just to make Linux as secure as baseline Windows NT SIDs and ACLs.
>>108997906any form of multi-user isolation on a shared system where users are allowed to run arbitrary code is just security theater and always has beensee spectre and meltdown
>>108998193>>108998203there's code in there to detect how gay the user is, since it's pride month and they want to give gay users a rainbow flag desktop backgroundbut you're too gay and the integer overflowed :(
>>108997368>why does Linux do *stable thing that just works with decades of uptime*?>why don't they do *thing that crashes constantly* like Windows?
>>108997433Stop pretending everything is a file.A file is a file.A directory is a directory.A printer is a printer.A mouse is a mouse.All deserve their own specific interface if you want your operating system to be intuitive (for both developers and users) and reliable.Using file interface for everything is laziness, it's giving up and using a shitty leaky abstraction for things when vastly better interfaces already exist and are proven to work great in other OSes.
>>108998242a file system is just an abstract hierarchical tree of byte stream nodes
>>108998358On Linux maybe.Other operating systems provide vastly richer abstractions.
>>108997368I don't understand what this thread is about. Yes, "everything is a file" is a UNIX philosophy, but neither Linux nor macOS follow it, they at maximum follow the "everything is a file descriptor" philosophy, which is not the same at all because you don't actually use read/write with those file descriptors
>>108997368I heard from a friend of a friend who knows a janitor at Microsoft that every time an NT build failed he pressed a flaming gooey marshmello on a stick onto the offending developer's back and drew the windows flag out of their burning flesh.
>>108998390Based if true. The weak should fear the strong
>>108997610amazing... is like if files within a file tree were easier to conceptualize and work with for humans...
>>108997530imagine windows 12
>>108998492>Microsoft announces Windows 12>They decides to backpedal on all the slop they added with their previous OS' to try and salvage their reputation>Windows 12 continues the Windows' cycle of every other OS version being good
>>108998512I don't think we can rely that anymore. The state of the industry is much worse today when even GPU drivers are vibecoded.
>>108997696Stop acting like there is a "better choice" between Windows and Linux? That would be a good start.
>>108998412
>>108997368everything is a file, history proved him right
Text is the universal interface. Everything being a file is a joy, you only need something like fprintf to control and watch the system. It also make things simpler.
>>108997368I like how Linux works. You're wrong, fuck you.
>>108999792>Linux works>Linux>worksHa ha, nice one.
>>108997368let's replace "everything is a file" with "everything is a bit stream". do you accept this solution?
Plan 9 actually shows Unix sin was actually moving away form the EIF philosophy (ioctl, sockets, ...)
>>108997368What about everything is a pointer in memory like god intended?
>>108997368>It made more sense in the 60s and 70sIt didn’t make much sense even back then, wasting cycles parsing text when your CPU was running at 4 MHz was a total waste.
>>108999861It runs all the servers you use to watch your slop, and probably the vibrator your wife uses to satisfy herself because you cannot get your dick hard from decades of tranny porn. Being filtered by loonix when it was made as easier as it can be in $CURRENT_YEAR it just means you're retarded, but worry not, it's /g/ and it's a safe place for your kind.
>>109000098The plan has failed.
>>108997440>ReactOS
>>108997530Flounder ass looking plane. >>108997701I agree that procfs is shit. I agree that Windows does some boutique things better. That being said, both are a race condition. Just trap the process.
>>108997368everything is a file is still great and the guy in your picture is a retard
>>108997368Guess what retard, the future of computing is autonomous typewriters
>>109000998No it isn't. Linux adds more ways to work around files with every release. Files are shit. Note a file descriptor is not a fucking file.
>>108997368And it works. As opposed to clueless zoomers reinventing everything the most retarded way just because they refuse to learn any existing standard, because peak mt stupid dunning Kruger after intro to cs 50.
>>108997368Yes, everyone with a brain knows that.Lisp machines and oberon were peak.
>>108997610It's a relational database.
>>109002086no you vantanigger it doesn't have indexes
>>109002293Not sure if retarded or just pretending.jpg
>>108997433everything is a movie
>>108997440>windowsbut anon, on Windows NT everything IS a file: devices, partitions, pipes, events etc...
>>108998203>>108997824>>108997749I haven't had a blue screen in years. Windows can recover from GPU crashes even.
>>108998389>neither Linux nor macOS follow itlinux does. you can use read() or poll() with data files, sockets, pipes, fifo queues, hardware (eg: /dev/mouse), ... but a nocoder wouldn't know that.
>>109004481Most of that shit aren't files that are actually present on the filesystem somewhere, they're just file descriptors created by some syscall, which is not compliant with the "everything is a file" idea
>>109004432>Windows can recover from GPU crashes even.I can't speak for Nvidia but as far as AMD is concerned no it fucking can't but I also can't really blame Windows when AMD releases absolute dogshit drivers
>>109004481That's what a nocoder like you might think, but the practical reality is totally different.
>>109005393yes this is exactly what "everything is a file" is about. lmao.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_is_a_file
>>109005486Plan 9 did the everything is a file thing way better. The unix way makes only a few things look like files, and it's more like calling a tranny a woman than it is actually making men into women. The operations you can do on most non-file files are limited and they must be handled with care, particularly when it comes to things related to permissions and linking and things like that. They look like files but not really, and they sure as fuck don't behave like files.
people need to stop glorifying unix way, it was a hack, that got additions as needed, not anything properly designed
You cant spell WINdows without WIN
>>109005497>Plan 9 did the everything is a file thing way better. The unix way makes only a few things look like filesWell, yeah, that was the point of plan9; While the unix team was implementing into the research version of unix many concepts that would later land into plan 9 ( https://lucasvr.gobolinux.org/etc/Killian84-Procfs-USENIX.pdf ), they foresaw the limits of unix, an implementation from the 70's that was getting old, and decided to start from a new base. Dennis Ritchie described plan9 as "unix, but more so". Plan 9 is the unix way.Linux is neither unix nor plan 9. Torvalds took the unix architecture as a starting guideline but reaffirmed many times that he would move away every time he feels it. Linux is closer to everything-is-a-file than unix or bsd ever was. Even signals can be handled with files now https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/signalfd.2.html .if you think that everything must have a path, torvalds explained numerous times why it's bad in practice https://yarchive.net/comp/linux/everything_is_file.htmlfile descriptors are enough.
>>109005972I don't think everything should have a path etc, I think that you need at least a consistent model and there is none in this case, it's just a big mess.
>>108997368"Everything is a file" doesn't refer to everything being accessible on the filesystem, but for most objects the kernel exposes to be file descriptors so you can treat them the same (read / write / ioctl / poll etc.)It's basically what every language that supports interfaces already does.It has aged quite well, although in practice, different file descriptor have to get treated differently in modern, high performance programs. Things like (vm)splice for pipes and fifos, sendfile for files over sockets, mmap for actual files etc. Windows' IOCP does it way better.
>>108998203Troonix crashes when out of video memory. Not on WINdows, though.
>>109006035>Windows' IOCP does it way better.Isn't that the same as select().
>>109006063Solves a similar problem, except in a non retarded way.No file descriptor limit for one and also it actually does the operations, then calls you back once it's finished rather than just telling you that you could read / write from the file descriptor without blocking now. Which is also why it works properly with files without you having to manage a thread pool, since files are always reported as readable.Although Linux now supports io_uring which does more or less the same. But IOCP is very well integrated with the rest of Windows, the core libraries and the ecosystem. Hardly anything uses io_uring because everything is infected with the old way of you having to perform the read / write operation yourself.
>>108997368As much I respect Dave Cutler, he really is a fucking boomer idiot. UNIX will outlive NT by a factor of 5 as Microsoft, a rightful Indian company, strangles it under the weight of it's own stupidity
>>109007044>he really is a fucking boomer idiot for not having the ability to read the future and the power to stop his kernel from being ruined by a rightful Indian company that was a fully white American male company when he developed NTAnon you're the biggest idiot in this thread so far
>>108998418> registryI store every bit of information in a giant win.ini file and edit it with notepad.
>>108997433everything is a stream
>>108997433Structured objects like oberon, lisp machines, or even (gasp I know) powershell (but not shit).
>>108997433Everything is RAM.
>>109007156Solaris STREAMS… lol. And Doors. Lolol.At least derived from real unix. Ahh, memories.The BSD socket interface was developed by some guy and just missed the whole everything is a file thing just because that’s why.
>>108997481The fuck does that even mean? Isn't the registry saved on the disk and ultimately becoming a file?
I love threads like this.Reminds me of what worthless fucking morons you all are.
>>108997368No matter how bad Unix is, Windows is, and always was worse.
>>109009537True in implementation, but the design of most windows components is actually surprisingly robust.
>>108997846You don't even know what Fizzbizz looks like in Smalltalk.
>>108997906There is literally, unironically, nothing wrong with that.
>>108998242>All deserve their own specific interface if you want your operating system to be intuitive (for both developers and users) and reliable.I disagree.
>>108997368>"Everything is a file" is a retarded and unintuitive conceptno it's not. it's a million times better than gay shit like windows's registry and shit like systemctl
>>109000098I am still surprised how cumbersome and unintuitive the Unix socket API is. Network programming could have been so much simpler.
>>109007212>Structured objects like oberon, lisp machinesGood idea in theory, but not language-agnostic, hence not a real substitute.Like it or not, byte streams are the only truly universal interface, and in hindsight, this particular decision that Unix made was correct.
>>109009630I think language-specific constructs can be accessed via memory share, thus equivalent to byte streams. But yes, byte streams are far superior to text streams at least. But that is not what unix did.
>>108997368Everything is a file is not the problem, the problem is the lack of structure. It's more like "everything is a text file" and now the interface is just read().>byte byte byte one byte at the time.https://programmingmadecomplicated.wordpress.com/2017/08/12/there-is-only-one-os-and-its-been-obsolete-for-decades/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-IWMbJXoLM
everything is a file is a joy to work with. i once made a little app the calculate the current cpu usage on linux: i just had to read the text from /proc/stat with read(). i will never go back to windows.
>>109009575Then you're stupid.The alternative is dealing with arbitrary unstructured text (or byte streams, but its usually text on Linux because muh human readability - yeah, right) which is both inefficient and just asking for bugs.
>>108998242>All deserve their own specific interfacetext is the universal interface. if it is text, it can be a file.
>>109001146>>109002082>>108997438>>109000998>>109001146However, the answer is 4chan withdrawal prevention center, formerly known as the psyops sommelier society. Certified & Designated by the Anons' Pattern Recognition Lab, Est. 2026. If you're getting tired of talking to same-shit-spam agitprop algo bubble bots, you should just start building your own breakaway communities or if you cba you can join my SimpleX chat link :https://smp14.simplex.im/g#79YIvcdNdZOuohe4elQ4SZUp-v6qG7xJmhdLX5sL2r4full link if short linke doesn't work : picrelDesktop/Terminal app : https://simplex.chat/downloads/>Inb4 : “muh you glow”, “I’m not clicking that link nigga”, "muh memeflaggot", "Discord trannies"Nope. You’re the demoralization shill. I got bad news for you. It’s only going to get worse. If you want actual anon discussion - talk about history & geopolitics, esoteric political pattens, 'insider here' posts, financial predictions, privacy tech stuff, non-pozzed philosophy and literture, while at the same time some banters and shitposts allowed, places like clearweb img boards are no longer some sort of isolated layer where we can laugh at normiefags together. We are not watching them. We are being watched. Discord, Telegram, X are not not really anonymous and namefag apps are inherent privacy nightmare. SX is more like IRC feels - incognito mode, multi profile and no phone number needed to join. Beware : this chat is post-populist : that means it was normal for people to have different opinion. But you can still joke around like here.
>>109007044>>109009502>>109006035>>109009578>>109009643see>>109011583
>>108997494>unix invented simple hierarchies
