Clojure was created when someone said, "Macros, lack of syntax, and tail recursion, defining features of a lisp, right? Well fuck out of here with them." We all know that what really embodies the lisp spirit of freedom is building a language on a Java Virtual Machine. Ever since John McCarthy had S expressions revealed to him by God in a dream, lispers have thought, "If only I could use horribly written libraries from a shit language with an unsound type system!" We tried in vain to build a lisp on a Fortran VM, but we couldn't make it miserable enough (and also, IBM didn't like Fortran being used to innovate, its apparently against the language standard). Clojure frees us to finally do that. Thanks, Clojure! I only hope that one day people can bring the same innovative ideas to Prolog! All of these idiot professors trying to improve the language with higher order logic or thoughtful object systems? Fools in ivory towers! What prolog needs most is the ability to easily call Java libraries. I can't tell you how many times I've been writing AI code and thought to myself, "There's a Java library that would make this so easy!".
>>109036428Yeah it's pretty nice
Holy rent free
>>109036428Live clitty leakage caught on the 'log.Looks like data literals made this CLittycel burst in his cage.
>>109036428Clojure isn't a real lisp.
>>109036428>I can't tell you how many times I've been writing AI codeIt's funny because nobody uses lisps for AI anymore
As a non-lisper I've considered Clojure for the JVM's platform support and tooling.The idea of being able to write lisp but get any of the benefits the JVMs already have, like ahead-of-time compilation, static binaries, cross compilation, are appealing to me.I'm not sure if these are possible with Clojure specifically but they are things I want.The big thing being the ability to write code but build it so that non-developers can execute it.I'm not sure which other lisp implementations do this best. For non-lisp Go (and by legacy Plan 9 C) are exceptional at that. Cross compiled static binaries are trivial in those.
>>109036735For development experience Common Lisp is nearly unbeatable. The restart system makes it extremely hard to enjoy writing in other languages once you fix mistakes by recompiling things and continuing from a frozen state of computation where you last hit an error, and CLOS is hands down the best OOP system ever made. Clojure is nice enough, but other Lisps are even better.
>>109036773How come no good programs have been written in lisp? At least clojure is used in some industry crud.
>>109036655Right. It's too useful.
>>109036428The only time I saw a job position for a Clojure role was to migrate a codebase to Java. I NEVER saw a CommonLISP job position being offered in nearly 18 years of experience (I was in the banking field some years ago). Considering that even obsolete languages still have some job opportunities (maintenance, migration, etc), I have to ask: has LISP ever been used for anything practical?
>>109036987>>109037666The premise is completely falseUp until the 90s Lisp was still in the top 5 most popular languages for development until the Lisp machine industry went under. And even since then you have software used for aircraft control and other logistics written in Lisp. Mathematica is also partly written in Lisp, I mean this is just stupidity.
>>109037724> the premiseAnd why did the lsip machine industry go under? Because all these lisp developers were producing a fire-hose of useful, readable and performant code?The only thing lisp is good for is instilling a superiority complex in midwits. If all of your code is doing the parser's job, then you can sprinkle in some special snowflake syntax sugar. Cool. Because the lisp community has a hard cap on IQ, they confuse this with solving hard problems.Reality check: 50 years later this idea hasn't paid off. Removing a core feature of what makes lisp a lisp and having it interact with java (lmao even) made it more productive! That's how shit it is. If it was as brilliant as you make it out to be, many more useful programs would have been written in lisp.
>>109037724You didn't understand. Even if it's not relevant anymore (and you ask yourself why LISP machines went under), there should still be jobs asking to maintain/update codebases written in CL if it had ever been popular. I was arguing that LISP was *never* relevant outside academia to begin with.Fortran and COBOL are not relevant anymore, but there are tons of jobs for old codebases. C, who's less and less used outside a very specific niche, have an enormous job market. > Up until the 90s[...]Source? Lisp machines, symbolic AI/expert systems were just an academia wet dream that didn't pay off since they were too expensive and too impractical to maintain for most companies. In the 90s a lot of industries were already developing their infrastructure and nobody sane in their mind used LISP.
>>109037956If you don’t know the answer then it’s a sign you shouldn’t have an opinion. Lisp machines were outcompeted largely on hardware. The rest of your post is irrelevant nonsense. >>109038368You’re a similar idiot, apparently. You can look up statistics if you want, it shouldn’t be hard. The cost of Lisp machine hardware was the real killer since Unix was cheaper and portable. The economics of it was the relevant issue. If you had a point there would be no need to keep sidestepping your own point about code to talk about business instead.Secondly there isn’t a need to “update” Lisp since at least Common Lisp doesn’t have an evolving standard. It has a complete spec and won’t change, so will be extremely unlikely to need maintenance except for things like web development which is Clojure’s exact niche. You were just given examples that were written in Lisp. You just didn’t have nearly as good of a point as you think you do.And clearly Lisp’s vision did make a lot of sense considering Python and C++ are extremely popular and have both been taking ideas from Lisp since creation, so the creator of your own language of choice very likely disagrees with your own terrible take.
>>109038368>muh academialol idiots love saying this shitmaybe you need some more of that fancy learnin stuff you get at them “colleges” or whatever they call them if you don’t get why smart people like stuff you hate lmao
>>109038368Because Lisp was written on Lisp machines in those days… it died when the machines died lol, you couldn’t use Genera on a Unix system back then, it’s basic common sense why you don’t need to maintain them if they were tied to hardwareThe stuff that wasn’t does still exist, like in design software which does still have some Lisp floating around, plus Mathematica is a newer example already mentionedFortran isn’t like this because it was very dominant in HPC and you can’t touch a lot of those codebases unless you also understand the field too, and also Fortran itself kept changingIt’s not that complicated
>>109037666I have never seen a brain surgeon job posting either in my entire life, Satan, so what?
>>109038368>there should still be jobs asking to maintain/update codebases written in CL if it had ever been popular.You speak as if software were something you need to water periodically otherwise it dies.
>>109038889>noooooooo you have to respect me for living off of government money and doing nothing but publishing papers about retarded nonsense that has no usecase irl
>>109037666Common Lisp was extensively used for computer-generated effects in a film trilogy that won 17 academy awards and grossed almost 3 billion dollars.
>>109036773>CLOS is hands down the best OOP system ever madeWhat's so great about it?
>>109039091Multimethods, standard method combination including before after and around methods, custom method combination, mixins, accessor/slot architecture, metaobject protocol including metaclasses, need I go on?
>>109038368>Fortran and COBOL are not relevant anymore, but there are tons of jobs for old codebases.They aren't the same. Legacy COBOL exists primarily due to the amount already-deployed infrastructure that uses it and the costs of changing.Fortran on the other hand, isn't legacy at all. It's just used in a highly-specialized, extremely important niche (solving linear algebra equations) and hasn't been replaced because there isn't anything better.To put it another way, if you had a greenfield project to implement business process logic and reporting, you might wind up using Java sirs or C# or any number of other memelangs with excellent results.But if you had to implement a program to perform highly efficient parallel matrix operations, you're eventually going to wind up either at Fortran with some C/C++/CUDA, or architecture-specific assembly. There's no "rewrite LAPACK in Rust" it's just not going to happen.
>>109039152>need I go on?Some light commentary on why you actually care about any of those features would have been more interesting, but this is 4chan I guess you just assume everything is a pissing contest.
>>109039296>I guess you just assume everything is a pissing contestI wasn't actually, projecting much?Anyway here you go, knock yourself out.https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/clos.html
>>109036625That's SO fucking sexy
>>109038835It's obviously a rhetorical question. Staring at all those parentheses must have given your boomer ass dementia.As soon as they stopped making hardware customized to run your programming language it died. Why? Because it's performance is shit. Why did they stop producing those machines? Because doing the parser's job isn't the groundbreaking holy grail of computing you wankers say it is. If this was truly a revolutionary paradigm, half a century later there would be an abundance of lisp code. There isn't because it's not that great of an idea.
>>109039398That doesn't tell me anything about why you like it.
>>109036428>lack of syntaxlisp has plenty of syntax, especially non-toy lisps like common lisp.>tail recursionnot guaranteed by the standard. only a few lisps have it.>Ever since John McCarthy had S expressions revealed to him by God in a dreamhe got it from the lambda calculus>I only hope that one day people can bring the same innovative ideas to Prolog!they do that all the time. clojure is like the mercury of the lisp world.
dont get me started on that datalog shit either
>>109039721lisp isnt and never was dead. high level architectures were hot shit in the 1980s and all of them failed because they were extremely expensive (to design, manufacture, buy, you name it), used a shitload of electricity, were too complicated for codemonkeys, etc.
