Wayland is much more secure than X11.

>>109050037
wayland looks and runs like shit and you can hardly customize it. it's also barely compatible with nvidia drivers, x11 is the gamers choice. also i've never had security issues with x.

>>109050037
you rely on display protocol to secure boundaries between your programs?
I use firejail for that.

>>109050037
>much more secure
1. how many people get hacked daily because they use X11? have you ever looked at CVEs?
2. why does that even matter when half the shit doesn't work on Wayland and the other half that does runs slower? even gaming is faster on X11 and there's no tearing with XLibre?

>>109050103
the supposed issue is that X11 protocol allows for a lot of malware, and is itself exploitable. (though putting xserver in firejail would help somewhat.)

the real solution of course, is running as little untrusted code as possible... even when that untrusted code is muh "more secure" alternative.

>>109050037
Wayland doesn't have a screensaver.

Just use Wayland. You don't get extra points in life for being a contrarian when it comes to your personal computer's display manager. There are much more important battles that you need to save your mental stamina for.

>>109050318
it's not "just use wayland". it's wait until xfce updates fully or switch to something else, painfully reconfiguring again, find replacement for xdotool, replacement for .XCompose, uncover other little issues with stuff that worked before.
it simply isn't worth it.

>>109050037
A house with no doors or windows is also technically secure, but completely useless.

>>109050318
There is only one desktop environment that works with kwin wayland, LXQt. Even that requires manually creating configuration files to adjust things like keyboard layout, disabling lock screen and adjusting mouse movement.

>>109050318
Just use Xenocara bro, no one has time for all this updoot'n.

>>109050318
>>109050037

I'm gonna enjoy your tears when wayland goes into the shitter.

>>109050474
And I'm just gonna switch when it does cause I'm not a retard who thinks loyalty of software is worth anything

>>109050255
use case for a screensaver?

>>109050780
your usecase, sir?

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>>109050037
Wayland was never secure.
For virtually it’s entire lifespan, every time you sent it 4097 or more bytes it would run an infinite polling loop task forever.
None of them ever knew the first thing about writing software let alone security.
You know how to make wayland more secure? Delete it from existence.

>>109050780
it's cute

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>>109050049
> runs like shit
It *is* shit. I would have preferred they had 100% vibe coded it, the models having been trained on X11 source for the most part, it would have ended up copying it, and we can ignore it.

>>109050318
I have a more likely chance of switching to Mir than wayland.
I applaud the wayland project funders for keeping them off the streets and out of grown-ups’ ways.

>>109050037
Not really.
Security by cutting away everything vital and screaming "NOT MY PROBLEM! LMAO!" is not security. Ultimately all the things that are unimplemented by Wayland devs must be implemented by someone else and not only it creates chaos and compatibility issues but also introduces even more security issues, now spread over multiple different elements.

>>109050112
>how many people get hacked daily because they use X11? have you ever looked at CVEs?
FUD. X11 CVEs are about one program being able to get info out of other programs running on the same desktop. Don't run untrusted software and you won't have this problem. Or, at least run untrusted software in a container using its own isolated nested X server.

Meanwhile Wayland's restrictions made in the name of security are all but guaranteed to be a nuisance.

>xlibre
>runit
>xfce
>No AUR
Yeah... It's artix time

I love Wayland and SystemD

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>>109050037
Literally NOBODY, not a SINGLE SOUL EVER asked for any of the "security" theater of Wayland. I switched to Linux precisely BECAUSE there was no corporation dictating what I was allowed to do with my own fucking desktop.

>be xlibre
>introduce Xnamespace extension to solve the input security problem on X11
>it's statically configured
>must restart server to add/remove namespaces
facepalm

>>109050002
they want to embed exploits into all the software, and if they can't, they want to destroy the software.

its what they do

>>109050037
Only on the surface. Internally so many hacks are used to make it work that it creates a lot of new security issues.

>>109050002
We told you, Xlibre is the future.
>>109050037
Xlibre fixes the supposed "security issues" with Xnamespace and other security improvements.
>>109050318
Wayland is the contrarian choice. It will die out just like Canonical's Mir.
You think you're niche for using a half baked DRM compositor instead of the display server that's been around for decades?

>>109050037
>>109051660
Why is being able to capture keyboard input and the screen considered a vulnerability in the first place? Literally every other operating system has it the same or similar to X. The prevalence of legitimate applications that use global keyboard shortcuts and screen capture far outweigh the problem of accidentally downloading a keylogger, specially on Linux.

>>109052221
And X does even isolate that.
It was literally designed as a multi-user server with strong isolation between different users.

Isolating between the same users is just retarded, and goes against UNIX's nice simple user/group permission system.
Instead everything now is that overly complex opaque mess with dbus and polkit where permissions are configured by fucking JS scripts

>>109050851
Every time your femboy ass looks at that cute thing a polar bear dies
>There's never been a use-case for the screensaver ever since DPMS was invented

>>109050002
Does Xlibre do Freesync/VRR (over HDMI, not DP) and HDR at the same time yet?

>>109052250
>fuck you your use case doesn't matter
>NOOOO why aren't you using my software that can't do what you want

>>109050002
why are you such a fucking retard? Sometimes we can imporve things not everything is fucking amish village you fucking faggot!

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>>109052250
>>109050780
I run CRTs and I'd rather not sleep or turn them off, because it takes time for them to reach stable operating temperature again. Plus it's unnecessary wear, heat cycles.
But Wayland isn't an option for me anyway as not a single fucking compositor supports custom video timings (not just resolution, size of porches and sync pulse timing etc ...)

>>109050037
Then port it to the other Unix systems too. Don't leave them to pick up the pieces.

>>109052278
>She needs her monitor to "get up to temperature"
Lmao. This is why nobody takes Xtrannies seriously

>>109052315
I thought X was for evil chuds?
Waylandfags can't keep their arguments consistent, just like they can't keep application work consistently across different compositors.

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>>109052315
Yes the inductance of the deflection coils change based on their actual temperature, which causes the geometry to drift until that temperature stabilizes.

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yeah, will totally use software written by someone who wrote this on the linux mailing list

https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/6/10/957

>>109052356
I don't think windows or mac os developers are any better, they are probably vaxxed too

>>109050318
>just use gayland bro
>just use systemd bro
>just accept tranny dick it's feminine after all
cooked

>>109052379
he's talking about the retarded Xlibre guy who knows neither bitwise operators nor what mRNA is

>>109052387
they linked linuses paid vaccine advertisment

>>109052416
they linked linus btfo'ing some retard who buys into every clickbait pajeets post on twitter

>>109052387
>bitwise operators nor what mRNA is
good thing is that linus is an expert for both

>>109052438
don't need to be an astronomy expert to call astrology retarded

>>109052444
there is more proof of astrology being true than the covid vaccine preventing covid

>>109052450
did some pajeet on twitter tell you that?

>>109051198
>using its own isolated nested X server.
so, instead of running the thing used by default by Fedora and Debian that is 3.54 MiB to clone and is secure automatically, i should run multiple instances of the server built by the project that is 48.49 MiB to clone. and for users that don't manually isolate their apps individually and run multiple instances of the same bloated server, they're fucked?

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>>109052444
wow you should really use this crystal to protect you from bad energy

>>109052199
But anon, wayland has also been around for decades.

>>109050037
phoenix and yserver > gayland
>>109052221
trannies are mentally ill, more news at 11

>>109052506
I'm more complaining about Wayland's design than defending X11. X11 is a clusterfuck stovepipe system that's had about 50 years of hacks and protocol extensions bolted onto it to support things nobody imagined when it was designed. It's well past time that it was replaced with a more modern design.

My gripe with Wayland's design is that it forces security features at the cost of a bunch of useful things. You can't have global hotkeys, "xdotool" style macro / programmed input type programs, screenshots, or desktop video capture without that being added as a specific feature of your compositor. And there doesn't seem to be a standard way to do those things, so a program written to do it with one compisitor will lack those features on another.

Running untrusted programs outside of a container is dumb to begin with since they get unchecked access to all your files and the internet regardless of your display server. But those security features can absolutely be useful, especially if you want to have windows from stuff inside a container alongside windows from stuff outside it. But there needs to either be a way to turn it off if it's more of a nuisance than a help, or a standard way for apps to request permission to do these things, and use it once it's granted.

>>109052444
exactly. taking max shilled mistery juice to your body is quite retarded innit

>>109052679
he says while parroting shit jeets tweet for X monetization shekels

>>109050002
Apparently everyone LOVES Gayland according to some survey I saw recently. I can't find it now but it said something like 95% of users on KDE or GNOME were using Wayland. Is that even true? It doesn't sound true.

>>109052696
Is this the new psyop language, jeets and Twitter? I'm sure you will be very successful in conflating not getting boosted like cattle with the two things gee hates the most, jeets and shitter.

>>109052356
linus is a faggot, but this was the right take

>>109051205
>runit
dinit*

>>109052897
it's just the simple truth
it's how twitter works and there are literally jeets making their living spamming ragebait

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>>109050049
>wayland looks and runs like shit and you can hardly customize it

>>109054994
You clearly don't know what gender means and are confusing it with sex

>>109050002
is wayland's compositor actually decent? i use X11 and am very sensitive to latency. picom introduces a fuck ton of it. --no-vsync --no-frame-pacing makes it more tolerable, but I can feel it still, also the CPU usage is unacceptable despite being 1-2% (9950X3D). i use openbox btw, no de

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>>109050002
>60 posts
>already brought up vaccines out of nowhere
and you still wonder why nobody takes your project seriously

>>109052506
Isolating apps is bad design, that's why screensharing, push to talk, is fundamentally broken on Wayland.
In a functioning operating system, you need interprocess communication not isolation.
When you do isolation, you force every app to carry around an entire OS, hence the rise of Electron.
You're not actually solving anything by making the protocol "lightweight" you're just moving the bloat downstream and refusing to create standards.

>>109055011
I said nothing about gender, learn to read.

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>>109055425

>>109055026
Tick tock vax cancer takes 10 years to develop.

>>109052356
BASED alert. Vaxxoids gave themselves cancer.

>>109055425
>The average Linux developer doesn't understand what gender is
>what gender is
>gender
err wat

>>109055021
why do you use a compositor?

>>109055959
i don't use a compositor. i tried picom out because gtk4 shit and firefox with its rounded crappy modern design windows leaves artifacts, there are also some bugs with software like Steam. i've avoided this problem for years, but it's getting worse and worse.

>>109050037
>Wayland is much more secure than X11.

look at me i just made the world most secure software.
int main()
{ return 0; }

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>>109050002
You know what platform doesn’t have these problems?

you'd want X11 over wayland precisely for the proper custom modeline support including interlaced scan, wayland actively deleted these features in late 2025.

windows still support these features

>>109052278
>I'd rather not sleep or turn them off, because it takes time for them to reach stable operating temperature again. Plus it's unnecessary wear, heat cycles.
Is this proven? Where's the proof? This sounds retarded since the guns do wear from active use.

>>109050037
Unplugging your computer and smashing it with a hammer is even more secure, so go do that please

>>109050318
Wayland is fucked up and half the shit doesn't work on my box
Xorg works fine
XLibre was working fine but they fucked up touchpad sensitivity in the last release so I had to revert to Xorg

>>109057175
What's proven? Solder joints absolutely degrade with heat cycles.
No idea how temperature affects gun wear, its the actual brightness drawn over time that wears them down. There's that one anon that has run his CRT 24/7 for years and has 120000h+ on it, but because it's blanked most of the time it's not that badly worn out.

>>109057608
What do you mean by blanked? A state where the electron beam is temporarily turned off? Oh, well I haven't done that! Whenever I idle my crt montitor I use a solid black screensaver, but yet I feel like that is causing some sort of burn-in.
>wear
To be fair I meant electron guns, one each for red, green, and blue. Let's say if an desktop wallpaper is blue and gets displayed 24/7 for an entire year at maximum constrast that specific gun will be worn out and colors will be inaccurate.

>>109052578
> more modern design
Newer is not necessarily better.
Because people are getting stupider (particularly zoomers and alphas) it almost certainly means it will be worse.

>>109057666
>blanked
Yes black screen, aka a screensaver
> but yet I feel like that is causing some sort of burn-in.
There is some idle emission so the gun always is accumulating wear, but it's likely to be miniscule compared to full output.
We don't really have any solid understanding of what exactly wears and by how much and when when it comes to the guns, this is all conjecture.

>>109056565
>uses LD_PRELOAD as an attack vector
heh... nothing personnel... kid

>>109057666
burn-in occurs on the phosphors
fucking midwits >>109057710

>>109052278
use case for CRTs and custom video timings?

>>109052578
> You can't have global hotkeys, "xdotool" style
Hehe… they definitely don’t want you to to be able to do shit with xtest and xdotool.
You could secure that functionality off, but they eliminate it because the plan is to link from safeboot to linux through systemd to the browser for unassailable drm tied to your government issued ID.

In short, they’re turning it into a locked down phone - not quickly mind you, they’re boiling this frog very slowly.

>>109057734
>burn-in occurs on the phosphors
Barely on "modern" monitors. The gun dimming, or "burning in", is a far bigger concern on anything built past 1995.

>>109057743
They enable you to further tune geometry, eg adjusting the width of the h-porches is the only way to adjust horizontal linearity any monitor. A large vertical porch is an infamous workaround to 2070SB's poor vertical linearity as well. Sometimes you can squeeze more efficiency from the monitor if it can get away with smaller porches.

>>109056467
> firefox with its rounded crappy modern design windows leaves artifacts
There are no artifacts. The only observable positive effect of a compositor is to anti-alias (blur) things like XDrawLine which happens on some window manager borders.
Things running inside a window can (and usually are) be completely composited and antialiased within that window.
The problem is X won’t handle “rounded corners” on the outside window normally. Although X does have support for round windows which it made for floating clocks using the extension mechanism.
Of course, firefox was probably forced to make such a stupid design by wayland zealots, but X could have been extended with rounded corner shaped windows.
Wayland zealots absolutely cannot do anything with a computer that doesn’t use rounded corners for all windows… it’s unintelligible to them.

Xorg had effectively been abandoned. All development efforts have moved to Wayland. The people who actually do the work get to decide - not us. Kneckbeards always freak out when the knowledge they base their entire personality on becomes redundant. The same thing happened with systemd.

>>109055737
>>109055767
Okay you are just low IQ, never mind.

>>109057947
The problem was there was nothing left to do on xorg. So they invented a reason to get paid.
In reality, they probably should have sold their body fat stores as fuel to the government as a small gesture to repay society for supporting their existence.

>>109052221
>Why is every application on x11 being a keylogger considered a vulnerability in the first place?
>Why is fucking an std ridden hooker without a condom considered a health hazard in the first place?
>The legitimate application of my dick feeling better without a condom far outweighs getting aids and dying horribly
This is how fucking stupid you sound.

>>109057706
>Newer is not necessarily better.
Completely agree. However, X11 has extensions added to the original design to support stuff like other keyboard layouts, key remapping, input devices that aren't a keyboard and mouse (graphics tablets or touchscreens for instance), changing resolutions without restarting, playing video without copying buffers multiple times per frame, vsync, using GPU overlays, using accelerated 3D graphics, and compositors. These are features that are expected today, and would work better if it was designed around them.

>>109057763
I care less about these security features than I care about being able to automate repetitive tasks by sending events to windows. A rock is safe against malicious software, but it's also useless for everyday computing tasks.

>>109050049
This was true maybe a decade ago

>>109050112
I've never once encountered something that didn't run on wayland, everything is slow and jittery as shit on x11, wayland is definitely heavier and requires beefied hardware but when the req is met wayland is faster. Also "gaming is better on x11" fucking what? Wayland is practically required for gaming. Gaming on X11 fucking SUCKS

>>109059236
you've clearly never used XLibre. It does everything better than Wayland. And especially if you use Nvidia graphics.
https://github.com/x11libre/xserver

>>109050049
this

>>109050002
Wayland is the most retarded thing to come out of the Linux community, and shit like this is why:

https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty/discussions/3459#discussioncomment-13474811
>For future reference: while Ghostty 1.2 did add quick terminal support on Linux, GNOME Wayland is still not supported. This is because GNOME refuses to implement the requisite Wayland protocol that allows applications to open windows on top of all existing windows. This is not the case on the vast majority of other Wayland-based desktop environments and compositors (e.g. KDE Plasma, Sway, Hyprland, Niri, etc.) and is therefore considered an upstream limitation that is beyond the scope of Ghostty. A GNOME Shell extension would likely be needed to implement this feature, but as of now we're not interested in maintaining one.

>>109061172
this one is just gnome being gnome

>>109058246
Why are you fucking std ridden hookers with a condom instead of fucking your wife without a condom?

>>109050037
Name a single time anyone got hacked by using x11 in the 40 years it has existed

>>109061631
I set xhost + and someone popped up goatse images

do any of the people arguing over this stuff even understand how any of it works?

>>109059066
> if it was designed around them
Wayland has the same design, except worse. It was designed as literally being and doing *nothing* until someone proposes and implements an extension (although they call them protocols in wayland bizarro world)

threads like these are a good reminder of why Linux will never be successful mainstream. It's userbase is mentally ill and retarded.

>>109061688
what if I don't want it to be mainstream? it already works well for all my use cases.

>>109050002
it could be improved. thankfully arcan does exactly that!

>>109061846
Arcan doesn't really seem to have a coherent direction. He's just piling a bunch of shit on top of it. That's fine since it seems like his hobby project, but it doesn't seem like a reasonable replacement for anything.

>>109050049
Still true today
Wayland will be replaced before the trannies can fix it

>>109050474
They don’t actually care they are just shills that want to stick it to chud

>>109061959
>Arcan doesn't really seem to have a coherent direction.
What are you talking about?

>>109062030
I mean would you or anyone else care to inform what he's actually doing on his project? From a brief glance just now on his site he's doing VR, data sensor visualization, some stuff with terminals, and more shit. I can't be bothered to try to grok all of what he's actually trying to do with regard to his the whole Arcan project. I just seems like a giant amalgamation of whatever he's interested in working on, and not an actual replacement for Wayland or Xorg Server. Again that's fine, it's his personal project. But it doesn't make sense to suggest it as a reasonable alternative.

you lost tranny

>>109050049
>>109050877
Linux drivers and compositors are garbo, but in theory, full screen apps should set the unredirect hint in both X and Wayland, and there should be little to no perf difference if things are working properly.

>>109050179
Its like because you can enumerate other windows than your own. This is like saying that Linux is insecure because you can see the files outside of your app directory. No its not and if its bothering you, then use the permissions system.

>>109050341
houses can collapse on your head, they are insecure, fire is also insecure, stop cooking food, also oxigen is insecure!

>>109052221
Am I right in saying that installing a keylogger would require root? Or at the very least, if one has a keylogger, it is essentially a given it will be able to escalate privileges?
If one has root, couldn't they just install a fork of wayland that doesn't block keygrabbing? Could they change literally everything about your computer so they can get whatever information they want?
In my opinion, if malicious code is running on my machine, it's already over.

>>109059236
wayland can't do unattended remote access, you are required to manually approve every remote access step, which entirely defeats the purpose of remotely accessing your desktop computer when you're not home in the first place (UNATTTENDED remote access)

>>109050780
it saves the screen

>>109062139
It's a windowing system and display server. It encapsulates an API, a networking protocol, an IPC system, and a suite of standards for things like security, localization, etc.
It's the exact same class of thing as X or Quartz or DWM (Windows), albeit modernized. Where's the confusing part? Like you see a bunch of disparate software running on top of it demonstrating capabilities, and that fries your ability to understand what you're looking at?

>>109050318

>>109050318
10/10

>>109062613
>Like you see a bunch of disparate software running on top of it demonstrating capabilities, and that fries your ability to understand what you're looking at?
Yes actually, I see a bunch of parlor trick bullshit that I don't care about, and then I wonder wtf the dude is actually doing. All anyone actually cares about is can it be installed and ran easily, does it support most hardware (including nvidia cards), and does it have all the functionality of X11 (I.e. being able to use stuff like xdotool).

If it's so good, why do no notable distros ship it by default?

>>109062319
>In my opinion, if malicious code is running on my machine, it's already over.
Pretty much. Traditional malware is practically non-existant on Linux. The idea with Wayland is a popup will ask you if you want to allow the app to capture the screen or keyboard so that's where the "it's more secure" comes from.
Funnily enough most Wayland compositors don't even implement this anyway. But it's an over engineered non-solution to begin with.

>>109061688
Name an OS with a non-retarded userbase.
Hardmode: not freedos

>>109062613
Why does his Github say it's a "Display Server, Multimedia Framework, Game Engine"
It's a game engine too? What?

>>109062919
BeOS

>>109050318
the replies to this post are insane. there are retards ITT who think Wayland is going anywhere when both KDE and GNOME have plans to fully remove X.org support. Absolutely hilarious delusion.

>>109062919
TempleOS

>>109062716
First the problem was that you were confused, but now it's that you don't care? I think you just realized you wanted to have an argument about something you don't understand.

>>109063167
Am I speaking to Bjorn Stahl right now? Why do you care so much about some shitty hobby software?

>>109061687
Exactly. X11 is overdue for a replacement, but Wayland shouldn't be it. I haven't looked into how Xlibre works, but it may even be possible to make an updated server with modern features while still using the X11 protocol and keeping full binary compatibility with X11 apps, network transparency, and other nice things we had for decades with Xorg.

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>>109050049
werks on my machine