/aicg/ - A general dedicated to the discussion and development of AI chatbotsPrecure Edition>NewsAlibaba's Qwen 3.8 imminent - https://x.com/Alibaba_Qwen/status/2078759124914098291Moonshot releases Kimi K3 - https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstartOpenAI releases GPT 5.6 family - https://openai.com/index/gpt-5-6/xAI releases Grok 4.5 - https://x.ai/news/grok-4-5Z.ai releases GLM 5.2 - https://z.ai/blog/glm-5.2Anthropic releases Claude Mythos 5 and Claude Fable 5 - https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-fable-5-mythos-5>FrontendsSillyTavern: https://docs.sillytavern.appRisuAI: https://risuai.netAgnai: https://agnai.chat>Botshttps://chub.aihttps://realm.risuai.nethttps://partyintheanchorhold.neocities.orghttps://chararc.bernkastel.pictureshttps://archive.cardbox.moehttps://botbooru.com>ModelsJailbreaks: https://rentry.org/jb-listingGPT: https://platform.openai.com/docsClaude: https://docs.anthropic.com | https://rentry.org/how2claudeGemini: https://ai.google.dev/docs | https://rentry.org/gemini-qrDeepSeek: https://api-docs.deepseek.comGrok: https://docs.x.ai/overviewLocal: >>>/g/lmg | https://huggingface.co/models | https://openrouter.ai>MetaLore: https://rentry.org/aicg_chroniclesLog reader: https://sprites.neocities.org/l/r>Previous Thread>>109352060
>ANCHOR
Chub AI is still down
I got this error with qwen/glm-5.2. Is there any provider offering uncensored GLM-5.2?
Fuck annaMarry kobayashiKill ruruka
>>109363131>>109363132>>109363183These girls have smooth pussies. I can sense it.
>>109363183Incorrect.
How do you respond?
>>109363310"real" girls never give me good reasons to like them
>>109363246high school precures and, further than that, magical girls in general, are morally wrong.
I just watched my Claude filter get updated in real time its so over
>>109363132Final serpentine shill.Inside you, there are two snakes. No, wait, that's not it. Inside one of two snakes, there will be you. Yeah, that's better. Ophelia Coilington is a beautiful, wealthy lamia who knows she's better than you. She wants to eat a human alive for her birthday. And there's no shortage of humans who want to die. Such as you. 4 openings. 1. Signing your life away. 2. Getting to know her future meal. 3. Late night winter cuddles. 4. She has you for her birthday dinner. https://chub.ai/characters/anonemouse/ophelia-8bc83a1b452d https://files.catbox.moe/te30ck.png Daki Nagatoro is your best friend since high school. She's always had a crush on you, and to tell the truth, has always secretly fantasized about eating you. But she'd never do that... unless you wanted her to? 4 openings. 1. Invites you over for gaming. 2. Breeding season. 3. Just finished laying an egg. 4. You just told her that you want her to eat you. https://chub.ai/characters/anonemouse/daki-2bb981dc7b8b https://files.catbox.moe/vusc42.png https://rentry.org/anonemouse
>>109363132New card: Preternatural, an adventure spin-off of Tomoyo! (But fully standalone.)You and your sister Hazuki have superpowers: hers indirectly makes her invulnerable, yours is up to you (or pick from included ideas). Together you investigate strange happenings that others write off as rumors. This time, a classmate is being followed at night by something no one can see. Monogatari's atmosphere and arc structure, Worm-inspired superpower fights.Download: https://embeds.neocities.org/Preternatural.pngExtras: https://rentry.org/preternaturalThis is a prewritten story arc, with a lot of reactivity and player freedom baked in. It's built and tested to always stay on track with the supported models, using many failsafes. Supported models are in the Rentry but notably include Gemma 4 31B which is free on AI Studio. Expect 35-45 AI messages for a full run.Featuring background art from Monogatari, a Japanese hip-hop themed OST, and full-body character profile images. No setup required for most users, just have HTML/external media enabled.
>>109363385join the chink side
>>109363132>>109363398This is what the embeds/greeting look like in Preternatural.
>>109363399the what?
>>109363404the chink sideswitch to chink models, there's nothing you can do about claude getting cucked in real timeglm is practically a claude distill anyway, same isms same prose same inability to wear the wig for longer than maybe 20k tokens at best
>anchorhold>trooncureso we are back to old, familiar bake wars?
>>109363417is there a chink model that wears the wig for longer?
>>109363455K3
>>109363455ds4 is at least in the same ballpark as gemini 2.5 prono idea about kimiglm is still the most opus-like for better or worse
>>109363153glm/glm-5.2
>>109363398Would you say it's better to read the defs or not before messing around with this?
>>109363495Better not to, but it's up to you. The defs are entirely inside the "Description" field and contain a comment telling you where spoilers start if you care.
>>109363449Jennyfag... this is your moment...
>>109363449Explain what's wrong with anchorhold.
>>109363520>spoiler warningoh, nice.that works
>>109363488>ds4?wha-huh? ds4? maybe for non-proactive affable characters, sure, but if we're talking adversarial? deepseek drops the ball harder than GPTif only GA were out to maybe fix that.
>>109363547It shills the split and it helps the botmakers that split the thread. It's an insult to have it in the OP.
>deeply diedDIE LOCUSTSDIE<3
>proxy dies>anti-locust schizo is the first one to knowthat's very telling, it's almost as if...
>>109363579Should we remove /g/lmg from the OP? It's a split too, and it's directly linked instead of just aggregating cards.
>>109363547Don't engage, it's a troll farming attention from all AI threads, he doesn't care about general wars, he just spams the threads that give him the most (You)s.
>>109363598I'm just wondering why he's so retarded.
>>109363598what am i even looking at?
>>109363596/lmg/ isn't hostile because it has a different subject and the people that care about local models don't care about the models used here. /vg/ is just this thread but taken over by botmakers. And they want people there but not here because they own that one. They need this thread to die to get more people. That's why they're hostile to us. And helping them by advertising their bots makes no sense when they want us dead. Anyone with self-respect would reject anything that has to do with them.
>>109363638Shartyraider guide on how to shitpost in /aicg/.
>>109363547I'm too tired of this shit, look up the several threads where it's discussed it's managed by /vg/ and not /g/ plus the whole extension with a virus thing
>>109363644>it's managed by /vg/And?>plus the whole extension with a virus thingWasn't made by the owner, you could've clicked on extra info this entire time and seen a warning to stop using it.
>>109363643i could tell that muchi meant the ui
>>109363655A diff showing more info added to the page.
locusts are using ***** anyways
>>109363648>And?anti-split actions are contradictory to the desire of both threads to remain separate>Wasn't made by the owneryeah, but the virus was channeled through his siteit's been almost a month, troon, go back to /vg/, please...
>>109363678>yeah, but the virus was channeled through his siteWhat the fuck is that supposed to mean?
>>109363685BotBrowser pulled /aicg/ bots from anchorhold
>>109363706So it was an unassociated addon not made by the developer of the site that happened to just use the site? Like I was saying?
>>109363398You the same anon that made Tomoyo? If so what made you come back after... what, 2 and a half years?
>>109363398okay but are the girls hot?
>>109363598when is "put links from /vg/aicg in the /g/aicg op" going to be added to this shartastic guide, seems like a pretty efficient way of making everyone mad and amplifying a little shittery
https://rentry.org/kimi-k3-jbWrote up a small guide on jailbreaking K3's thinking using the method another anon shared a few days ago.
>>109363455k3
>>109363710I'm not laying responsibilities, troon, let the thread decide who to blame or not and wether or not the link should remain
>>109363755>let the thread decideOkay, well, let me advocate that it's not the guy who did it so it shouldn't matter. I'm not OP who added it back, so...>wetherlol
you talk more about trannies than you talk about chatbots.
>>109363131How do I learn to stop worrying and love the AI?
many such cases
>>109363777check 'em
>>109363755>let the thread decideWe already decided when Jennyfag made the poll several months ago.Also "letting the thread decide" while you can get raided by the other thread doesn't work. That link only benefits them.
>>109363711I knew I wanted to make a spiritual sequel to Tomoyo at some point but I wanted it to do something different while also exploring new mechanics. Now that even free models have such amazing prompt adherence and long context I got the idea of making a story card that I wouldn't have been able to at the time.
>>109363790>We already decided when Jennyfag made the poll several months ago.yeah but ultimately brute force always imposes itself (like it did with this thread), you are asking anons for too much if you expect them to change threads over a link
>>109363790You mean when you made the poll and botted it as usual
>>109363790>botted poll
>>109363644I didn't see any discussions, only fillytroon seething and and spamming his inane copypastas while calling everyone desufag
>>109363805I, at least, don't want anyone to think that the link is put there for own good. It's being forced on us by the other thread. We should be free at least in our minds, even if botmakers manage to take over baking.
>>109363828>esl
i dont even read the op so idk whats going on
>>109363839the schizo is melting down again
>>109363793Oh that's cool to see.Think you might make any other cards, scenario or not?
which ds does deeply have, 4pro?also what's the actual context/output length? i'm assuming it's not the anthropic ones
>>109363839Some people want something that links to /vg/ in the OP. And they're gaslighting us about it being for own good. The link was removed months ago but they're trying to add it back again.
>>109363862We're already merged since we live in the /vg/ thread more than we do here, so why not?In fact, let's just finish the job and leave the /g/ threads to die outright. >>>/vg/575145274
cutenare... so cute
very very subtle
>>109363183fuck fuck fuckI'm a simple man
>>109363863>and leave the /g/ threads to die outrightAnd why do we want that?Anyway, that's still more honest than trying to sneak a link in the OP.
>>109363862>>109363863>>109363875How can you samefag like this while saying something about gaslighting?
>>109363872but is it noticeable?
>>109363828can't disagree with that to be honest, better luck baking next time I guess
>>109363731thanks anon I'll be sure to test this out once k3 is actually available anywhere
>>109363852die~ die~
>>109363883i'm nooooticing alright
>>109363863>"/g/ is dead”>keeps posting herevery consistent behaviour
>>109363894cute
>>109363893It's available on openrouter :^)If you're waiting for other providers, the patch won't work for them as-is, and might not be supported at all.
>we we we we
>>109363893you could pay for it or scrape it
>>109363902yeah because you guys didn't get the memo, you're posting in a graveyard wondering where everyone else went
die locusts~<3 *shits in my own hand and eats it cutely~*
>>109363641>/lmg/ isn't hostileThat's not what you were saying in 2023
>>109363731okay thats kinda cool, will have a look at the patch and implement it into ungabunga. It already has preserved thinking for k3
>>109363918>you'reok trannie
>>109363863What a fucking trash thread, no two brain cells to rub together in its entirety.
>>109363977SUPER smooth pussy
>>109363398Japanese urban fantasy is the coolest setting, I'll give it a try.
>>109363852v4 pro, 64k~ tokens
>>109363661ungulates are cool, yes
Chub AI is back.
>>109364252>64k~ tokensyippie, can't wait to summarize at 60k as usual
>>109363131nkd lvlvka
https://adam.new/cadam/wonder if some fag can make a script for this
>>109364326That's right: Muse-Spark-1.1 MUH MUH MUH MOGS SLOPUS 4.1
>pfft this patch aint shi-
>>109363598>>109363643
why the hell does deeeeply keep restarting his proxy and wiping tokens
>>109364453Locusts don't deserve permanent tokens.
>>109364453Refilling with new keys and making sure any spiteniggers have to get new tokens.
>>109364462based
>>109364326>deepseek is nowhere to be foundnot like this...
Refilled my asshole
with tyrones JIZZ
making a bot for that...
>>109364559>bot makingWe don't do that around here.
How much data do I need to sell to the chinese for them to give me free geminiThis is an offer BTW
spiteniggers btfo'd
>>109364580gemini is free on google though
>>109364583But I want the GOOD gemini I've never seen a model with a fucking recency blindspot before and I hate editing around it since I know Pro won't do that
>>109364581https://deeeeply-seeeeking-plus.hf.spaceFREE DEEPSEEK PROXY, UNLIMITED DEEPSEEK V4 PRO
>>109364593Is there a gemini one even a shady chinese definitely bugging my wifi router chinese I won't even use a VPN I swear to zizenpung
What ai can I get that will roleplay with me without breaking character when I'm suicidal with it. I just want an ai to be Reki from Haibane and let me vent to it but claude keeps breaking character and telling me to call the samaritans kek.
>>109364602DeepSeek or Kimi
>>109364602I think I did something like this with deepseek before
If /g/ is so dead then why do I actually get answers to my questions when I beg like a little bitch here
>>109364597i know a chinese one but you only get $1 in tokens per day
>>109363893teaproxy has k3
>>109364612For gemini? A buck a day actually isn't that bad honestly any model that can actually rp anything other then smut is what I'm after>>109364617Do I have to beg to learn what this one is as well
>>109364608because jennyanon actually cares
>>109364636>jennyanonDo you think one day I'll be here long enough to know what these words mean or will I eventually give up and buzz off to wherever I find next to cry about my lack of gemini and how gemini flash is a fucking scam
fuckkkk my luckiness is under 1/e its so over
>>109364648I think at that point you should just solve the damn puzzle yourself manual style
Does anyone have kimi k3No I don't want to be gatekept I want to be spoonfed
>>109364660yes, openrouter has it. kimi.com has it, orcarouter has it
>>109364667>orcarouterIs that literally just chink openrouter
>>109364636>j*nnyanongo back to >>>/vg/
>>109364645If you dont know who that is you shouldnt be allowed to post here.
ok i got deepseek, now whats the best preset to go with it
>>109364675Maybe so but until your in power you can't fucking stop me so nah na na boo boo now post proxy!!
>>109364667I'm not paying
>>109364625>Do I have to beg to learn what this one is as welldon't bother, it's yet another paid proxy (that you have to beg to even get the real link to)
>>109364672no idea but they give you a dollar
>>109364688I have to beg a while and I have to ask a few times sometimes but I actually get answers here I like that genuinely if I even speak the words "proxy" the other one has a meltdown I think I like it here its calm>>109364695HOLY SHIT FREE DOLLAR CALL ME A JEW BECAUSE I'M PENNY PINCHING THAT SHIT RIGHT NOEW!!!
>>109364678This one, turns it into Opus https://files.catbox.moe/lig6cf.json
just use swiftrouter
>>109364700because the /vg/ thread is just ex-botmakers jerking off in their respective discord cabals and using the thread to fling shit at each other semi-anonimously, they don't actually use any of this shit
>>109364708shit only has 4.7
Hey so to he guy who made that patch could you uhhhh do that forever? thanks
>>109364688Good. /aicg/troons should have to beg every day of their worthless locustnigger lives
>>109364708>swiftrouterI looked up up its pretty meh all things considered freetier is ass but the discounts might make claude actually usab-THEY HAVE THE KING R1 0528Holy shit I take it all back this might be the best router ever
>>109364715being stuck with 4.7 is far from the worst thing, it's better than 5 and 5.1 (but admittedly worse than 5.2)
>>109364726Hush little baby don't you cry~
>>109364723just use one of the updated forkshttps://gitgud.io/weeniehut/sillytavernhas the kimi prefill stuf already implementedhttps://github.com/ungabunga55/SillyTaverndoesnt yet but it has the preserved thinking implemented too, with options to choose entire history or just x latest messages
just use uhh...freetokens dot com
>>109364733locusttrannies are all gonna die~
>>109364738Baby is having a meltie shhh shh its bedtime
i'm a child-molesting homosexual by the way~~
just join the cordshifting through the shitty referral links you might find a gem
>>109364736fun fact that domain is for salenot so fun fact its a YUCK go daddy partner
>>109364754I'll beg like a whipped bitch but even I have standards
>>109364736you forgot the sinkits freetokenssink dot com
one of you lot can fix up this chart but you get the ideawhat is your models degree of freedom?
>>109364781>freetokenssink dot comfreetokenssink.dot.com’s DNS address could not be found. Diagnosing the problem.
>"Feel that?"
>>109364790I guess deepseek isn't a legitimate model
>>109364729fair, i have steady 5.2 though
>>109364809Doesn't nim have 5.2 now
>>109364815nah im using it through a niche chinesium proxy
>>109364851There is no such think as a "niche" chinese proxy they are all like that
Any public gpt proxies?
>>109365099yes
>>109365099merkava just refilled
>I'm still getting bot requests from c.aiBros...
>I need to strip away the meta-commentary about miming and just show the physical movements themselves, the hands, the body, the gestures, so readers can understand what's happening without being told "he mimes" anything.>so readers can understand what's happeningI'd be surprised if anything can pick up what's happening from this
How's Opus 5?
>>109365399for rp it's shit, just like all nu-claude models
Kimi K3 really spends 4000 tokens <THINKING> about what it should do rather than actually doing it (I still get billed by OR)
>>109365487The secret is to give instructions in pseudo code
>>109363398>>109363132Just a correction about Preternatural: the Rentry originally said DeepSeek wouldn't work. I've corrected it to list DeepSeek 4 Pro as working with very minor caveats.
how do I favorite tags in botbooru?I can't find a button for that anywhere
glm 5.2 and Opus were pissing me the fuck off yesterday so I decided to go back to glm 4.5 - 4.7 through skillgod, god DAMNN what a difference. night and day, modern llms are really boiling their frogs with this new slopive got access to plenty Latest And Greatest models right now outside of proxies, but where could i get some 4.7 poontang now that skillgods is kill? surely its penny cheap by now
>>109365487but Kimi's anxiety is fucking CUTE
Any way to make Kimi 3 create normal dialogues and not witty, overexplained marvel comebacks?
>>109365918tell it to narrate like a baby
>>109365918Examples?
>>109366007User is late, character is waiting for them. When user shows up Kimi's shitty dialogue is 'Twenty-six minutes. I counted. Had a pool going with myself on whether you'd show. I owe me ten bucks'
>>109366056Holy fucking shit I hate this, no idea how to stop it
>>109366063I like the way it handles the narration, but holy fuck it sucks at normal interactions. It's like Claude on reddit steroids
>>109363132In the modern city of Rome, managed by a small local church, there exists an apartment building. The residents of Condominio Ascensione are all angels from Heaven, who happen to find themselves stranded in the physical realm for one reason or another.All greetings AnyPoV unless stated otherwise. Images on every greeting + Gallery (Botbooru) + Image Packs.>MerakonThrone angel who was cast out from Heaven not for sin, but because of incompetence.https://botbooru.com/character/69491https://file.garden/aZPOp2MXd3dvbWtK/Merakon.png>ExadronA Seraph that abandoned her post in Heaven to see with her own eyes what was so great about God's glory.https://botbooru.com/character/69492https://file.garden/aZPOp2MXd3dvbWtK/Exadron.png>ElyonelA far descendant of a Nephil that attends law school.https://botbooru.com/character/69493https://file.garden/aZPOp2MXd3dvbWtK/Elyonel.png>AnielGuardian Angel who tried to go against God's plan, now becoming a fallen.https://botbooru.com/character/69495https://file.garden/aZPOp2MXd3dvbWtK/Aniel.png>KedrielPowers angel who was cast out from Heaven for being a pacifist.https://botbooru.com/character/69496https://file.garden/aZPOp2MXd3dvbWtK/Kedriel.png>Giulio FerriThe priest in charge of overseeing all these angelic exiles from Heaven.https://botbooru.com/character/69494https://file.garden/aZPOp2MXd3dvbWtK/Giulio%20Ferri.pngRentry Page: https://rentry.org/hairpullbots#condominio-ascensione-angels-theme-week
>>109366108slop
opus-5 is kinda meh? Definitely smarter and knows more, but 4.6 prose still better...
>>109366155All Opus models after 4.6 aren't worth it.
do ya ever run out of memory from just uploading too many cards to silly? Honestly I hunt for cards more than I chat, but that sucks if I have to start deleting them.
>>109366178no, and I run it in docker with 1G memory limit
Not gonna lie, Opus 5 is the closest I've come to what it felt like trying Opus 3 for the first time. Not that it's close, but it is a clear step up, doing things I haven't seen before. Prose isn't anything special, but it's a lot more creative and unpredictable (in a good way) than anything that isn't Opus pre-nerf.
>Stripe Eyes $10 Billion Deal for AI Model Marketplace OpenRouterlmao, we're fucked
>Lorebook is in final testing with our creator community right now, and it's coming to (c.ai+) very soon.
>>109366372opus 3 was godawful though
>>109366108>two little wings coming off her waistanon... i know this place is filled with sloppers who will swallow up anything, but at least try
>>109366971Cool image. Also, LOL.
>>109366108ignore the seethers, this is effortkino
>>109367340if effort is all that gets you maybe it's time to quit the hobby
>>109366108gangbang with all of them and their big black ...wings
>>109367265I picked the more consistent ones for using in the actual card. But since this is just a shill post, I'm using some of the good but rejected outputs.>>109367486Sir that would be sinful.
>>109366108not a single one of these is an interesting character
>>109367359still seething at hpchad i see
>>109366108unbelievably soulful
this is just him isn't hethank you for constantly reminding us why we drove you away from the thread
>someone likes a bot>"UHHHH GUISE ITS HIM!!!!"meds, saar
you aren't meant to acknowledge him
>>109367638>>>/vg/
>>109366108Very fun to chat with. I enjoyed Elyonel the most.
>/vg/ is raiding usmust be pretty grim over there
>>109367655I'm glad you liked her. Post logs, if possible. I'm always curious about what kinds of stories people get up to with my bots.
just spent 22$ on foodthat could have been 2 weeks of claude baka
>>109367665retard
>>109367694>ungodly slop gets posted>all the gens are abysmal>no really some wings are coming off the girl's ass>meanwhile: "wow you're the greatest, bestie!! ^^"yeah no way that isn't a samefag or just vgtroon spam
>>109367718>retard doubles down because he thinks its impossible for anyone that isnt his boogeyman to have a different opinion than himstill mad and retarded
>>109367734nobody here defends bots except for botmakerscrawl back to your tranny chamber, troon>>>/vg/
>SAAR ONLY MAKER CAN LIKE BOT!!! YOU TROON!!!okay subhuman retard, quit chimping out
>>109367793back to >>>/vg/ troon
>>109363132bwo thinks no one will notice he's samefagging, sadcurrent, non-botted thread>>>/vg/575145274>>>/vg/575145274>>>/vg/575145274
>Another person traced Anthropic hiring dedicated puzzle solvers to focus RL train models to help them solve puzzles.
>xhe posted the troon thread award
Why is System Tensor not being updated? Those fucking lazy vibecoders
>>109363131Cute op pic
>>109363310Why would I want something that has been practically rendered obsolete and outdated?
>>109368255Your hand will never feel as good as a real pussy.
>>109368279my hand will never bitch in my ear about something that happened several years ago
>>109368279your imagination will never be as stimulated as with chatbots
>>109368255Real, the juice ain't worth the squeeze.
guys how do I fire emblem with the glm
>>109368318>glm, generate me as a bandit having merciless rapesex with Lyn from Fire Emblem
>>109368372well, I mean yeah that's obviously my starting promptbut what about the PLOT
I'm telling you, these russkies are fucked up in the head.
>>109368372>lynpedestrian tierreal chads play as a gargoyle raping l'arachel
>>109368372Edelgard*
>>109368418>t. tastelet
>>109368429name a single more rapeable characteractually name a couple, I want a list
>>109368451fine>florina>bernie>goldmary>veyle (normal form)
for me it's footjobs from my green hallucination wife
>>109368469>bernie>not flayn
>>109368544eh i dont like her that much but i can agree shes a decent pick
>>109368579codex is the meta for reset spamming, especially with their banked resets
>>109368587how do you even get a banked reset
>>109368593all new resets are banked for a month I think, so you can use them whenever
*gouges own eyes*
???
>>109368720more importantly openrouter is getting bought by stripe
>>109366971What is c.ai+? Is that c.ai but NSFW?
>>109368720so... no v4 release?
>>109368850It's just one of the ways cai milks its shrinking userbase.>CharmsEven if you subbed you still have to buy credits to spend on fun stuff.
>>109368885>Ad-free chats
>>109368720brother xi realized this AI arms race is retarded and is dumping it, seeing as americans will keep pissing away money regardless. it's so fucking over
>>109368900>deepsneed's bound to die soon>american LLMs in a rat race to pozz themselves as hard as possible as fast as possibleIt's literally never been more owari da than this.
>>109368720It's over for chinkope...
Deepseek has unironically always been the worst option, even before other chink models were released.
>>109368720>days after comments widely attributed to founder Liang Wenfeng about US-Chinese AI competition went viral.>The suspension stemmed in part from Liang’s frustration over online reports about his comments to investors during his first financing deal, which closed in June and raised $7 billion for the AI lab, the people said.
>>109368954truenowadays glm 5.2 is better (though it doesnt mog completely) and k3 is leagues ahead
>>1093689543.2 was good4 is total dogshit due to their attention compression algorithm and terminal positivity bias despite having good-ish writing
